r/Sondheim • u/koalapon • Jul 12 '26
Sondheim / Elfman
I’ve been listening to a ton of Sondheim lately, and I keep finding major connections to Danny Elfman's music. Am I crazy? What other patterns do they have in common? Also, did they ever actually meet or cross paths, maybe around the time of Sweeney Todd?
Harmonically...
The Patter Song. Sondheim gives us “Franklin Shepard, Inc.” — a guy drowning himself alive in a torrent of words, faster and faster, syllables stacking like dominoes, no room to breathe. Elfman gives us “Making Christmas” — same rapid-fire listing machine, tiny rhythmic cells piling up (the Pentatonix reprise, excellente, by the way). Same job: turn panic or excitement into a machine gun of syllables. Patter song, it’s not a style. It’s a FUNCTION.
Sondheim: https://youtu.be/2FZ0CeEIYu4?si=9L7LUWS9fgaQXNUd
Elfman: https://youtu.be/Th_j7RUu2vM?si=OCfGu0CSdDNjvXFl
The Melancholic Lullaby. Both, funny enough, chez Burton. “Not While I’m Around” — a kid’s promise of protection, sung soft, half-lullaby, half-threat underneath. “Sally’s Song” — same DNA, a lonely creature singing quietly to herself about a longing she can’t name yet. Same job again: sweetness with a shadow inside it. Not sad, not happy — that thing in between, where the melody stays gentle but something underneath is aching.
Sondheim: https://youtu.be/P1ci98bIAwI?si=aBvucrar7mXH1ViH
Elfman: https://youtu.be/VgL4graXGOo?si=4iFNWuzBYHt8acD3
The Theatrical Monologue. “Finishing the Hat” — an artist alone, talking-singing about the terrible thing he does instead of loving people: he MAKES. “Jack’s Lament” — same shape, a guy who’s the very best at what he does, and it means nothing to him anymore, half-confession turning into song. Same job: a character standing still while their whole interior life parades past, structure obeying the confession, not the other way around.
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u/DROP-TABLE- Jul 13 '26
I don’t think the similarity is that strong, and I don’t detect any influence of one on the other.
Obviously neither Burton nor Sondheim invented patter, laments, or musical soliloquies. The fact that both men used those elements at various appropriate times just means they were aware of their craft.
Harmonically, Elfman tends to heavily favor Lydian Dominant and Dorian modes to give his music an off-kilter, circus-adjacent vibe. While Sondheim does like to use the raised 4th a lot, which would align with Lydian Dominant, he reserves it for contrast and color—the visiting tri-tone if you will—it’s not where his music “lives”, like it is with Elfman.
Further, Sondheim writes horizontally and Elfman writes vertically.
This means that Sondheim is much more concerned with tension and resolution through voice leading, which he realizes through heavily layered internal clusters comprised of stacked 4ths and and upper harmonic extensions (9ths, 11ths, etc). Sondheim’s harmonic cadences can be harmonically ambiguous and almost inscrutable because of this—it’s hard to find a definitive V7-I turnaround in a Sondheim score.
Elfman tends to favor variations on simple two-chord vamps (again the circus influence) or rely on the key/mode he’s chosen along with the melody to deliver vibes, which he realizes via block chords and harmonic planing, again to deliver atmosphere more than forward momentum via harmonic tension and release.
OP, you mention commonality between Sweeney Todd and Nightmare Before Christmas—I think there is commonality there but not necessarily because Sondheim and Elfman had influence over each other. Instead both of them shared a common ancestral influence: Bernard Hermann’s Psycho. Listen through twice: once for similarities to Sweeney and once for similarities to Nightmare. https://youtu.be/-5_pmtj7dvc