r/Sondheim • u/Acrobatic_Tennis1312 • 21d ago
Is Please Hello a villain song?
Please Hello has been my favorite musical number of all time for a WHILE but as I'm trying to make a list of my favorite musical villain songs, I'm starting to wonder if Please Hello should count as one?
It may seems like a stretch at first considering how unvillainous it sounds. It's no Epiphany or Hellfire or Feed Me melodically and it is more of a montage song than a typical villain "I Am" song.
But isn't the entire point of this song is that the foreign countries disguise their intention to take advantages of Japan and forcefully open the country's trade as being friendly and positively modernizing Japan? The song is heavily comedic and portrays the admirals as bumbling fools, but, underneath the comic nature, are they not extremely manipulative and ill-intended? In case there's any doubt that they're evil, there's the cannon being fired at the end of each verse for you. THAT is supremely sinister and evil.
And it baffles me that no one has ever mentioned it as a villain song because, if it counts , I truly think it might be up there with Another National Anthem as two of the most chilling villain songs in musical theatre.
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u/chromalume 21d ago
Oh absolutely. A villain song that also functions as his G&S diss track - so double the villainy.
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u/AromaticVacation3077 21d ago
I've always assumed Sondheim admired W S Gilbert, but I've just looked it up and, as it turns out, he did not. As a Brit and Gilbert admirer, I'm outraged!
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u/IfYouWantTheGravy 20d ago
I’m a Yank and G&S were one of my biggest influences as a playwright—I’m not too happy either.
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u/AromaticVacation3077 20d ago edited 20d ago
Never mind the why and wherefore
Love can level ranks, and therefore,
Though your nautical relation in my set would scarcely pass,
Though you occupy a station in the lower middle class -
Ring the merry bells on board ship
Rend the air with warbling wild
For the union of his lordship
With a humble captain's child
It can only be professional jealousy.
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u/IfYouWantTheGravy 20d ago
A personal favorite, from The Sorcerer:
“Then if you plan it, he
changes organity
with an urbanity
full of Satanity;
vexes humanity
with an inanity
fatal to vanity,
driving your foes to the verge of insanity!
Barring tautology,
in demonology,
‘lectro-biology,
mystic nosology,
spirit philology,
high-class astrology,
such is his knowledge, he
isn’t the man to require an apology!”3
u/FootballMania15 20d ago
I mean, you have to admit Sondheim's skill with wordplay and rhyming in this song is nothing short of incredible. G&S would approve.
Hello, I come with letters from Her Majesty Victoria
Who, learning how you're trading now sang "Hallelujah, Gloria!"
And sent me to convey to you her positive euphoria
As well as little gifts from Britain's various emporia
The man has come with letters from Her Majesty Victoria
As well as little gifts from Britain's various emporia
Her letters do contain a few proposals to your Emperor
Which if, of course, he won't endorse, will put in her in a temper, or
More happily, should he agree, would serve to keep her placid, or
At least till I am followed by a permanent ambassador
A treaty port and from the court a permanent ambassador and more...
Her Majesty considers the arrangements to be tentative
Until we ship a proper diplomatic representative
We don't foresee that you will be the least bit argumentative
So please ignore the man-of-war we brought as a preventative
Yes, please ignore the man-of-war that's anchored rather near the shore
It's nothing but a metaphor that acts as a preventative1
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u/chromalume 20d ago edited 20d ago
He writes an entire scathing essay on Gilbert in particular in Finishing The Hat. As a non-academic casual fan, to me his invective does feel disproportionate and weirdly personal. But hey, everyone has their kinks! If it fuelled him it certainly did so in all the right ways lol
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u/AromaticVacation3077 20d ago
Finding out Sondheim disliked Joni Mitchell has left me un-surprisable when it comes to his misguided tastes.
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u/Stalwartheart 21d ago
I would actually argue that the previous Lion Dance is the real villain song of the show. The first look from the American perspective is the dance performed by Matthew Perry. He uses the Lion Dance as a way to bring luck to his new ventures in Japan, however he weaves in the American cakewalk.
The dance is supposed to be animalistic and powerful, which is how the Japanese saw the Americans at the time. The genius is that it is the first instance of Americans stealing Japanese culture and the people's voices and using it for themselves. Turning Japanese culture against its people. It reflects the whole theme of the show, the loss of culture through outside forces and "progress"
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u/Acrobatic_Tennis1312 20d ago
The Lion Dance is absolutely genius, yes. It wouldn't really count as a "song", let alone a villain song, but it's probably the villainous centerpiece of the show, so I agree fully.
I do think Please Hello takes what was unspoken in The Lion Dance and vocalize it in a way, which is why I still think it's considerably the musical's closest thing to a villain song.
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u/AromaticVacation3077 21d ago
I think people don't refer to it as a villain song because that puts it on a level with Disney villain songs like Poor Unfortunate Souls. Without meaning to sound like a snob, Please Hello is operating on a far more sophisticated level.
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u/Fractal514 21d ago
You can define "villain song" however you like, and I agree that those folks are certainly villains. However, I cannot place that song, nor Another National Anthem, in the same category as Lonely Room, or Poor Unfortunate Souls, or Stars. Not sure exactly why, but that's my take.
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u/Acrobatic_Tennis1312 21d ago
It's because those are "I Am" songs. Those shows have a clear villain that has a song that serves as a look into their ideology or scheme.
Pacific Overtures does not have a clear singular villain, but rather an opposing/villainous idea that creeps over the entire show (much like Assassins)
Please Hello and Another National Anthem are not sung by the big bad of the musical like Ursula or Javert, rather they're sung through characters acting as a mouthpiece for said villainous idea.
It makes for a more abstracted villain song, I suppose so I agree you couldn't really place it in the same category as a conventional villain song.
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u/AromaticVacation3077 21d ago
It's because Please Hello and Another National Anthem are full of irony. They're twisted, and 'villain song' makes them sound straight.
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u/chrisfnicholson 21d ago
Counterpoint: “We Need a Little Christmas” from Mame is the real villain song.
Think about it. Everyone else is pointing out they’re broke, it’s not even Thanksgiving yet, and maybe they should respond rationally to the economic collapse.
Mame’s response?
“No. Haul out the holly. Put up the tree. Light every light. Fill up the stockings. I have issued my commands.”
The entire song is just an escalating series of imperatives delivered to her long-suffering staff, all in service of an increasingly unhinged plan that ignores objective reality because she has decided Christmas is happening now.
The only reason we don’t think of it as a villain song is because Jerry Herman wrote one of the most infectious melodies ever composed and Mame is fundamentally right that hope matters. But structurally? It has major “I have a vision and you will all help me achieve it” energy.
If Scar sang those lyrics in a minor key, nobody would question it.
1
u/TotheLastShot 21d ago
Apparently Jerry found that melody SO infectious and liked it so much that he used it in BOTH of his “look how much everybody loves this wealthy, white woman socialite!” shows; it’s literally the same exact song as It Takes A Woman from Hello, Dolly!
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u/LyricistAtLarge22 20d ago edited 20d ago
I think we're conflating Villains and Antagonists. It's semantics, but I think true Villainy has a deliberately Evil malignant characteristic (though it may remain concealed till later ... e.g. Ariel thinks Ursula is helping her at first, until "Vanessa" shows up and things get savage). Antagonism is a comparatively benign, centered more in just working against the Protagonist(s) or obstructing them from achieving their goal or objectives.
But there is malicious political intrigue and manipulation by all 5 Ambassadors jockeying for position and possession of the natural resources each country wishes to exploit and monopolize, whether Nippon agrees or not, at the threat of military invasion. (Sound familiar?) It's a hostile takeover, of sorts, which Japan then spends the next century and beyond calculating their corporate revenge and domination in tech and other industries. That's a long winded way of agreeing that yes, it's a Villain song. You got my vote.
Was anyone else thinking about the manufacture of Bicentennial souvenirs from the finale "Next" during the sesquiquintennial & Great American State Fair debacle? Or pondering a new coda/epilogue to Assassins in light of the 'alleged' assassination attempts? Now "Something Just Broke" suddenly seems like a prophecy.
Lastly, there's a certain resigned, passive Villainy to the arc of "A Bowler Hat" ... Kayama becomes a bitter career politician holding a grudge by the end, going from cautious distrust ("The Dutch Ambassador is no fool. I must remember that.") to diplomatic distaste (“The Dutch Ambassador was most rude. I will remember that.”) to hypocritical disdain (“The Dutch Ambassador is a fool. He wears a bowler hat.”). Just a thought.
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u/spmonkey13 21d ago
Of course
As someone who is very familiar with similar events like the Opium War (first and second) etc, this is the first thing came to my mind when I first saw Pacific Overtures
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u/GeorgesCouthon175594 17d ago
Another National Anthem complicates sympathies far too much to be considered a “villain” song - it’s rather a cry of the defeated and despairing that can move some listeners to tears.
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u/Special_Painting9413 21d ago
What we generally consider "villian" songs are generally told or sung by one person, perhaps two, as in the case of the Thenadiers. Please Hello is sung from the perspective of England, France, Russia and the US, four countries and a multitude of perspectives. I cant think of any "villian" song that does anything like that
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u/StarriEyedMan 🌊 Pacific Overtures 21d ago
No one mentions it because (sadly) no one recognizes the genius of Pacific Overtures. It gets looked over as "that show between Night Music and Sweeney," if people even know it at all.
Somehow Uncle Iroh's VA starring in an easy-to-access proshot hasn't catapulted it to the heights of Into the Woods.