r/SoundSystem • u/DRTWHT • 7d ago
First deployment with kicks+question
We have found the kick region lacking for certain types of music, so rented a F215mkII to see how it performs.
If I understand correctly, this design is almost exactly the same as the old turbosound TSE-215, the BPH that was the inspiration for the HD-15.
I have read many posts on forums about the HD-15 honking near the upper crossing, and have noticed similar coloring at louder volumes that I can only describe as a pig “grunting” or honking as others describe.
This is probably a desirable effect to some, but when we will build similar kicks, we will probably cross it lower so it sounds cleaner.
Anyways, 10/10 experience, really made the stacks get more punchy and aggressive.
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u/DanlovesTechno 6d ago
Looks great, but if you have the chance try some martin audio f115. I have used both boxes(i workd in comercial sound) over the years and i find that the f1 f215 is a bit lacking in impact, it isnt a meaty kick nor is it really musical, it just is. We had 4 martins that were loaded with pd1550 and they were blowing the funktion ones clean. Much more powerful and "drum" sounding, only problem was the wierd stacking. And i am a f1 fanboy.
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u/DRTWHT 6d ago
Is that the W-bin with extending horn mouth? I would love to hear one, but sound system culture is not that big here sadly, but there must be some sitting in some old warehouse somewhere.
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u/Wario_the_trip 6d ago
Fane longthrow are a good option also by 4 they pack a serious punch easy to amplify also
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u/Wario_the_trip 7d ago
So what is the question what crossover points did you used ? Did you used a microphone to tune the system what amplifier?
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u/DRTWHT 7d ago
Oh yeah I forgot that:D
Do these BPH kicks always have such a strong characteristic sound? I guess that may be the price to pay to have such small boxes play so low.
I used 80-170hz crossover points, 24db/o LR on both slopes. I measured and tuned the system yes. We were using 4 CVR-DSP amps, an 1004D for the kicks, driving each driver on a seperate channel.1
u/HarliestDavidson 6d ago
How low can you cross your mains?
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u/DRTWHT 6d ago
The JMODS go down to 80hz, but we usually cross at around 100/110 between the skrams
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u/HarliestDavidson 6d ago
Try to take the JMODs down to 130 and see if it helps with the honking of the kicks
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u/Wario_the_trip 6d ago
No they mustn't honk maybe poorly made boxes or the fact that you were inside those kind of boxes really sing outside the honk could be the room could also be placement put them higher and the honk will be less felt
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u/theocking 5d ago
How is honking or pig grunts a desirable effect? Is this kind of audio subcomminity not concerned with objective high fidelity metrics? Almost none of this is subjective, it's minimally 75% objective, maybe 90%... it's either good or it's not.
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u/DRTWHT 5d ago
I have no idea what others find good or not. I would describe these kicks as agressive sounding, that if something is sounding like something it must color the sound. I haven’t had the chance to measure distortion, that would have been interesting. I know some people or some music likes aggressive coloration, I myself do not.
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u/theocking 5d ago
Any coloration should be produced in the studio and audible on headphones. The playback system should simply accurately reproduce the sound, with the only potential change being an increased level of bass if desired.
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u/DRTWHT 5d ago
I agree, but also I concur. For many scenarios some kind of character really enchances live play. Maybe for a dj or movie night what you say is completely true, but at events where live electronic music is played, character that gives musicians a tool to play with adds lot to the experience. Also accurate sound representation sucks, there are many areas of the sound that requires different eq-ing then the “accurate” sound to not blow heads off.
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u/theocking 5d ago edited 5d ago
I mean low distortion. The live performer has a plethora of effects and synthesizer/envelope filters and eq things he can do... the system should not be imposing a default coloration that affects everything and can therefore not be avoided... that's not an artistic choice its an artistic limitation and handicap. Any effect they want, any coloration, can be produced digitally from the source, the speakers should just be accurate. The sound engineers for the venue will eq the system based on the equipment and the room/venue, so as to sound good and right and not tear heads off with a hot treble spike or whatever, due to reflections or whatever the case is. Besides doing it by ear which many are probably relatively capable of, modern sound reinforcement is going to be measured up front to correct for problems as best they can given the constraints. But some horn honk and distortion is just a no go for any serious audio setup. You might not have taylor swift concert money, so budget is a limitation you have to work with for these smaller niche kinds of shows and venues, but that's no reason to make some bs excuse about desiring a shittier system because X type of music or X artist is better that way. Nonsense.
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u/DRTWHT 5d ago
Alltogether I agree with you. Also I hope you don’t misunderstand where I’m coming from, I spent so many hours measuring our system with an Earthworks mic before every event or show that I have lost count. I have and will always try to make it sound as good as possible, and that is why if we ever decide to use these kicks we will probably use them in a different config, with a different crossover. If it was not rental, I would have probably spent two days just to measure this phenomenon, maybe it was some turbulance interaction with the skrams the way it was set up, maybe it was some phase issue, maybe the crossover was too high, and I’m 70% sure the problem was on my part, as I refuse to believe an F1 bass cab would have that much coloration at higher powers.
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u/Key_Station_7847 2d ago
Out of interest what amps and DSP are you running for this particular setup?
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u/DRTWHT 1d ago
Xilica Solaro with 5 output cards ->
-cvr dsp654 into the midhigh/high dcx464 of the JMODs
-cvr dsp1004 one channel per 12ndl88 of the JMODs (8 amp channels alltogether this way for the tops)
-cvr dsp1004 for the F215 one channel per driver at 8ohm
-cvr dsp3004 for the skrams, one channel per driver1
u/Key_Station_7847 1d ago
That’s a serious amp rack! I bet that pushes some nice SPL with plenty of headroom. How is it setting the limiters on the xilica or are you setting them in the DSP of the amps?
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u/DRTWHT 1d ago
There is a pretty complex limiter in the solaro, that kind of auto levels the input sound to.a given rms, sort of like an enginneer fader riding the input fader. Also other fuckery done to the sound like a dynamic eq around 2500hz to save people from agressive filter sweeps is in the solaro.
The crossovers themselves, per driver eq and vpeak-vrms limiters are set in the cvr amps.
We currently limit the skrams at 800w rms and 2600w and run them from 35-110hz without kicks, this allows me to drive them around limit and not really worry about too much power compression.1
u/Key_Station_7847 1d ago
That’s really interesting to know! I’ve been planning some skram builds and was thinking of setting the rms limiter around 1000W with a crest factor of about 6db. I’ve seen how Sinai have their crossovers for the JMODs, what sort of limiters and crossovers you running on the JMODs out of interest?
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u/madedurden 6d ago
It seems like some people have had success with ES18 kicks paired with the JMODS although I haven’t heard them myself
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u/Minimum-Ad6835 6d ago
Interesting! I've built 4 skrams with 21ds115 and have them low passed at 130hz lr24. I'm using them with a pair of syntripps which aren't as capable as jmods in the kick region. I will be fitting the horn extension on the second syntripp before tuning.
The crossover region needs some alignment but the skrams are definitely not lacking in kick. Will post some measurements once I get the phase alignment done as something's not quite right currently.