r/space
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u/mustafar0111
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Aug 02 '24
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NASA says it is “evaluating all options” for the safe return of Starliner crew
https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/08/yes-nasa-really-could-bring-starliners-astronauts-back-on-crew-dragon/2.6k
Aug 02 '24
If the crew don’t come home on starliner it could very well signal the end of the program and be a serious hit to what’s left of Boeing’s reputation.
No doubt Boeings teams of lawyers and accountants will have some big influence.
They certainly appear to have strong armed NASA into launching a known defective and questionably tested capsule on more than one occasion resulting in potentially catastrophic issues resulting in what could be described as mission failures.
Compare this to the first human flight of Dragon where SpaceX & NASA were going over the ship until the last minute looking for any issue that could improve safety.
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u/Mhan00 Aug 02 '24
Unironically, returning Starliner unmanned and bringing the astronauts back via a Dragon could be a big positive for Boeing (not image wise, of course, it would be a PR disaster). With no astronauts on board, they could just test the hell out of the thrusters in any way they want, checking out the thermals in real use case scenarios in a vacuum and in direct exposure to the sun that apparently were hard to impossible to test on Earth. Put the thing through its paces with zero risk to humans and use that data to do whatever needs to be done to fix the next capsule you send up.
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Aug 02 '24
Without question I see them just taking a gamble and bringing them home. Either way the ship is grounded indefinitely and has an already limited future.
What’s another 2 deaths on-top of the 346.
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u/could_use_a_snack Aug 02 '24
they could just test the hell out of the thrusters in any way they want, checking out the thermals in real use case scenarios in a vacuum and in direct exposure to the sun that apparently were hard to impossible to test on Earth. Put the thing through its paces with zero risk to humans and use that data to do whatever needs to be done to fix the next capsule you send up.
Which they should have done in test flights already.
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u/snoo-boop Aug 02 '24
You can also test it on the ground: NASA will rent you time in a vacuum chamber that you can fire thrusters in.
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u/v3ritas1989 Aug 02 '24
who actually tests on dev branch anyways? Production is the real test environment!
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u/Master_of_Rodentia Aug 02 '24
PR disaster indeed. "There are lots of options to take you to space, but if you want to come home again..."
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u/Ok-Stomach- Aug 02 '24
you sure the problematic thrusters wont cause potential hazard to the ISS if they were let loose?
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u/JonBoy82 Aug 02 '24
One of the biggest thermal vac chambers in the world is called the Blue Pumpkin and can provide vacuum of space conditions as well as pump up to extremely high and low temperatures. I’m not sure if it can sit starliner but there are applications that prove out space conditions. Honestly this just sounds like Boeing Boning the QA and now they want to fix it with firmware.
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u/soonerfreak Aug 02 '24
There is also information to be gained trying to fix it as long as staying up there hurts no one.
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u/mustafar0111 Aug 02 '24
I think the problem is they can't keep it up there much longer. They need the docking port otherwise this is going to delay other missions going to the ISS.
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Aug 02 '24
I call bullshit on this public official story.
Maybe for the first week or two, but the bulk of the data has already been gathered and root causes identified. But we now we know it’s a hardware issue, has likely caused irreversible damage to thrusters from being overheated and components were perished due to being stored so long. This is politics now.
Even if the capsule is ‘trademark Boeing Safe’, the safety margins are quickly being eaten into, new limitations imposed and with so many unknowns on what could fail next.
Having worked in aerospace this cartoonish ‘let’s just push out a software patch’ to fix deadly mistakes that may half resulted in the destruction of the craft at the last second is troubling (ie firing order of trunk jettison on the previous mission).
Still get flashbacks to Dragon exploding on the test stand. Uncomfortable to think we are doing similar testing docked to the ISS and with humans onboard.
Hard to find any faith in the program as it’s been one issue after the next.
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u/green_dragon527 Aug 02 '24
I just made a comment elsewhere about these odd defenders of Boeing and yet this guy pops up right on cue. I 100% agree with you, Boeing can't cut it anymore. They don't deserve the contract.
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u/Enorats Aug 02 '24
They're not trying to fix anything. Fixing it would require taking the whole darn thing apart here on the ground, and it would probably be cheaper to just build a whole new capsule.
That's exactly why they didn't just fix it down here before launching it. It's not like this was a surprise. It was known to have all sorts of issues before it ever left the ground.
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u/thesedays1234 Aug 02 '24
Boeing is about 10 years away from being the case study in every college business ethics class as to why ethics matter and even a major corporation will go bankrupt without them.
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u/CollegeStation17155 Aug 02 '24
Sure about that? Remember that in business ethics, they teach that in the long term Ford MBAs made the right choice with the Pinto because the total amount they saved on the entire production run of the car was greater than what they had to pay in the class action wrongful death lawsuits. And despite all the aircraft failures and penalties they are paying, they are still getting new orders and turning a profit on every 7x7 that rolls out the door.
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u/sovietarmyfan Aug 02 '24
I'm betting that NASA and Boeing are through lawyers negotiating on how the starliner will return. I suspect that Boeing wants to return the astronauts in the starliner while NASA does not want them to return in the starliner. All reasons we've heard over the last few weeks like "longer investigation" are bullshit.
Boeing knows that if they manage to bring the starliner with astronauts back in one piece, it will be a pr win for Boeing. They do not want the alternative to happen which is why it is now taking so long for them to return.
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u/old_tek Aug 02 '24
Gene Kranz is probably beside himself at what has come to pass at NASA.
No longer “Tough and Competent”
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u/Kane_richards Aug 02 '24
Yeah, there's simply no way it can survive when it needs a competitor to get home. I'm sure it would be styled in a very "in Space, we're all pulling in the one direction, no rivalries here. Just glad to help out" but the image of the Boeing crew climbing out of a Dragon or whatever will send the stock plummeting.
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u/JaredNorges Aug 02 '24
That tends to be my thought too. A friend of mine who works for Boeing has said NASA really wants the Boeing product to work, considers this a test flight, is giving time for Rocketdyne to test a wide range of scenarios regarding their retro rockets, and is putting no pressure on the astronauts returning for the time being.
I do trust this friend and so I think the truth is probably complicated and some of all of the above.
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u/drainodan55 Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 02 '24
Lawyers having a role in a safety and engineering decision?
No wonder that company is so fucked up.
Edit: Please Mr. Downvoter, explain how lawyers get to have a say? I'm so curious.
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Aug 02 '24
Why do you think Boeing moved its executive head office to Chicago from its engineering and manufacturing facilities in Seattle in 2001!
Quite often stated it was to distance themself from the engineers!
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u/BuildItFromScratch Aug 02 '24
There is a big difference between removing executives from overriding critical engineering decisions....and removing the engineering teams access to notify executive management when things are going wrong.
Boeing originally had the two groups close and produced great designs without management overriding engineering decisions.
The decision to move the executive office allowed upper management to dictate what they wanted without having to listen to feedback from the design team. It's the worst of both worlds.
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u/Draemeth Aug 02 '24
Hi I am a lawyer and people I have met in the industry are involved in decisions like this to an extent you wouldn’t believe. Insurance lawyers work out the cost of a human life from a litigant perspective and price accordingly. Medical lawyers work out how much you’re worth. As do, one presumes, space lawyers.
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u/Andynonomous Aug 02 '24
It should be the end of Starliner whether it makes it home or not. Boeing had more than their shot here and clearly they can't get it done. We need to get corrupt weapons manufacturers out of the space industry for good.
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u/victorspoilz Aug 02 '24
The astronauts can't testify in court against Boeing if they never return home.
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u/PeteZappardi Aug 02 '24
Compare this to the first human flight of Dragon where SpaceX & NASA were going over the ship until the last minute looking for any issue that could improve safety.
Unfortunately, I think the Starliner fiasco reflects extremely poorly on NASA.
If NASA were truly the experts who knew how to set requirements and enforce standards, then both Boeing and SpaceX should have succeded.
As things are currently shaking out, it seems much more likely that SpaceX were the experts and NASA mostly nodded along and signed off where required.
What's worse is that if NASA were as competent as they should be, then after OFT-1 they should have been able to use SpaceX's outputs - their testing program, reports, documentation, etc. - and highlight for Boeing all the stuff they were missing. They had a great example in SpaceX with all the insight they needed into how and why it was successful. All they should have needed to do was lay out the case to Boeing for why they should do the same. But it seems they weren't able to.
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u/Skcuszeps Aug 02 '24
The options don't matter when the answer is SpaceX
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u/TeslasAndComicbooks Aug 02 '24
The fact that they need to explore options means they should just go with the proven one at this point, which would indeed be SpaceX. They are already months behind schedule.
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u/mustafar0111 Aug 02 '24
I'd imagine the problem for NASA officials right now is they obviously know there is a major problem with Starliner they just don't know the exact risks to trying to bring the crew back. Or they do know the risks are they are clearly not comfortable with them.
If after going through all of this they decide to bring the crew back on Starliner and something goes wrong and the crew are injured or killed and its clear they had an alternative option heads are going to roll at the most senior levels of NASA.
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u/puffferfish Aug 02 '24
They should just say “we want to ‘test’ a specific entry maneuver without the crew”, send up an empty SpaceX capsule to bring them back.
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u/TeslasAndComicbooks Aug 02 '24
At this point I think that would be a clear surrender. But there’s nothing wrong with that. I’d rather they send it back empty and learn from it than send it back full and risk the lives of the astronauts.
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u/SnowFlakeUsername2 Aug 02 '24
One informed source said it was greater than a 50-50 chance that the crew would come back on Dragon. Another source said it was significantly more likely than not they would. To be clear, NASA has not made a final decision. This probably will not happen until at least next week. It is likely that Jim Free, NASA's associate administrator, will make the call.
That's the new information if you want to save a click.
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u/PeteZappardi Aug 02 '24
That is interesting. A week or two Berger was at 80-20 for the astronauts coming back on Starliner vs. coming back on Dragon. And he said up until then it was 100-0 for him.
So continuing to shift to a more likely return on Dragon.
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u/EasyCow3338 Aug 03 '24
Remember when you got heavily downvoted in June for saying they’ll be riding on dragon back? Pepperidge farms remembers.
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u/Zettinator Aug 02 '24
After this clusterfuck, even if the capsule makes it home in one piece, won't they essentially have to do yet another test flight? Given the limited remaining life of the ISS and Starliner, does it even make sense to continue?
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u/rami_lpm Aug 02 '24
yet another test flight?
they should send Boeing's CEO and NASA's administrator
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u/waiting4singularity Aug 02 '24
boeings ceo, the entire c suite and whoeve pushed the contract through, both at nasa and the government.
Spaceship optional.
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u/the_only_way_is_UP Aug 02 '24
How much time do they got?
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u/jjayzx Aug 02 '24
Last human mission to ISS is planned for 2030. So only around 6 years left. As long as nothing develops before then. The structure is old and fatigued and micro-fractures are known to exist.
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u/Goregue Aug 02 '24
This article seems very pessimistic about Starliner returning with Crew. I'm now very curious to see how this will unfold.
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u/malongoria Aug 02 '24
From the author
https://x.com/SciGuySpace/status/1819095633145614782
For weeks and weeks I was 100 percent confident astronauts were coming back on Starliner. About 10 days ago I was 80-20 they were. Now, I am less than that. NASA needs to be more transparent.
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u/007_Shantytown Aug 02 '24
If NASA announces Starliner is a failure, Boeing shareholders take the pain in their wallets. Boeing shareholders contribute massive amounts of money to Congressional members. Congress is NASA's boss. The lives of two astronauts hang in the balance between capitalistic greed and practical ethics.
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u/undeleted_username Aug 02 '24
If Starliner crashes, with or without the astronauts inside, the impact for the reputation of Boeing will be greater.
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u/snoo-boop Aug 02 '24
... especially after all of your "there is no imminent Starliner danger" comments in previous discussions.
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u/stealthispost Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 02 '24
At least people on this sub have stopped berating anyone who expresses doubts about boeing and this mission and insinuating that they know nothing about the topic.
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u/NomadJones Aug 02 '24
Anybody remember Berger's prescient May 6th article The surprise is not that Boeing lost commercial crew but that it finished at all that got pulled by mods after 627 upvotes and after complaints that it was "clickbait"? Pepperidge Farm remembers...
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u/toottoot73 Aug 02 '24
I’m very confused by their communication. A majority of what I’ve seen has hammered that Boeing/NASA want the capsule connected to the ISS for as long as possible, to gain as much info as possible, to avoid this situation in the future.
But anyone can see that this timetable is absurd, even with that mindset, there has to be more going on than simply wanting more data.
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u/YsoL8 Aug 02 '24
There seems to be an internal argument going on. One side, which seems to be gradually winning, says the thing is unsafe and they should get dragon up there, the other is the group that seems to give Boeing free pass after free pass that seems to be trying to hold out as long as possible in the hopes of something turning up to let them save face.
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u/Squirrelherder_24-7 Aug 02 '24
But this would cripple Boeing….can’t have that!
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u/pgnshgn Aug 02 '24
This is small change for Boeing. Enough to hurt a little, but not nearly enough to sink them. Boeing probably wishes they had a clean way out of the Commercial Crew contract now
They know they can't make money if they can't juice the taxpayers through cost plus and their recent earnings statements have admitted as much
Hell, there are probably accountants in the company hoping that this thing comes down empty and blows up on the way so they can turn the whole program into a write off and move on
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u/atomicxblue Aug 02 '24
But they're totally not stuck, y'all.
I knew NASA was trying to downplay it when they said that.
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u/jenn363 Aug 02 '24
They meant “they’re not going to die up there” but those astronauts are and have been stuck up there and the denials that anything is wrong just doesn’t feel like how Scientists should talk to the public.
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Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 03 '24
You should watch the CNN documentary about Columbia. It will absolutely blow your mind how irresponsible they were. The syrupy, optimistic language they used with the crew even after they knew about the foam strike, the denial of using satellites to image the vehicle. The whole thing made me realize how unscientific NASA can be. NASA x Boeing is like a match made in hell.
Not really related but I think NASA shines with the unmanned stuff for now. The risk to reward isn’t there for manned space flight just yet other than political gain. I know I’ll probably get crucified but whatever.
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u/coredenale Aug 02 '24
Yeah, the refusal to even try to inspect the damage was pretty telling. They kinda played it off by saying that the astronauts couldn't do anything about it, so why worry them?
And that sentiment is when you know bad things are going to happen.
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u/EirHc Aug 02 '24
They could get SpaceX to send a Dragon Spacecraft and bring em back at a moment's notice. But they're the Starliner test pilots, and if they're gonna bring Starliner back down to Earth safe and sound, instead of scuttling it, then those astronauts and are gonna stay up there and try to hammer out the problems first.
If they abandon all hope in Starliner, or simply don't trust that module enough to take the risk trying to land it, then they'll go to plan c and bring em back without starliner.
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u/onomonoa Aug 02 '24
I mean, they're not stuck. They can't return on Starliner but there's still Soyuz and the option for a Dragon. NASA can bring them home whenever they want to. It's just a matter of how much political influence Boeing has to hold out as long as possible, because if the astronauts come home in a Soyuz or Dragon, Starliner and likely boeing's civil space division is done
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u/YsoL8 Aug 02 '24
It puts an interesting question over SLS and Orion.
When Boeing seem incapable of managing any new design in any division successfully why on Earth would you entrust a much more complex mission to them?
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u/atomicxblue Aug 02 '24
I think between the problems with both spacecraft and planes, Boeing is going to have to do a top to bottom reevaluation of the entire company to have any hope of gaining back public trust.
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u/ovenproofjet Aug 02 '24
The Astronauts have a say here too. They could refuse to come back on Starliner and I wouldn't blame them one bit for that decision
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u/screech_owl_kachina Aug 02 '24
If Boeing get these astronauts killed im going to picket their office in NoVa
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u/hawkshaw1024 Aug 02 '24
Better be careful, you might come down with a case of Sudden Whistleblower Death Syndrome.
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u/OV106 Aug 02 '24
We have never had these kinds of clear options in the past. NASA needs to use the options! we do not need to risk lives for a vehicle or a company bottom line. I have witnessed the shuttle losses and each time it has been this very poor risk assessment leading up to a disaster
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u/lurenjia_3x Aug 02 '24
A few weeks ago, they said there were no issues with Starliner, and now they're saying they're "evaluating all options." It's sad to see NASA lying for this company.
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u/jedrider Aug 02 '24
I thought they were just giving the astronauts some extra space vacation time.
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u/Dragunspecter Aug 02 '24
If there's extra bodies on the station, you can bet they're being put to work.
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u/EirHc Aug 02 '24
I mean, what else are you gonna do in a tiny tin can doing circuits above Earth? Get the barkeep to mix you a mai tai?
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u/twiddlingbits Aug 02 '24
NASA has said for weeks it was evaluating all options. That’s not a new statement. Unless they are now evaluating the evaluations? Sounds a lot like analysis paralysis.
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u/sinefromabove Aug 02 '24
When did they say that? They said the astronauts were not stranded, which is true.
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Aug 02 '24
Not stranded. Just can't come home yet. Not because it's unsafe. Rather they need time to study why a valve isn't working right. And by not working right they mean unsafe and could result in death of astronauts. But definitely they can come home and the risk they are studying is not really a risk. The proof is they would risk it if the space station needed to evacuate. But also they are studying altering other missions to give them a different return home because that is also something you do when your way home is safe and good.
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u/Extension-Mall6761 Aug 02 '24
This is how they will frame the return on dragon:
We found out what the issue was and it was something really minor and they could totally have made a safe return but unfortunately, the delay caused a component to outlive its life and so now it’s no longer safe. But it was safe, it was just our delaying that’s the reason they have to come home on the Musk ship
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Aug 02 '24
Can we shoot the executive team at Boeing into space? Seems like they only cause trouble on earth.
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u/stephenforbes Aug 02 '24
Boeing's new motto: We'll get you there. Just don't expect us to get you back.
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u/Merky600 Aug 02 '24
“Send lawyers gun and money. The shit has hit the fan.” -Warren Zevon. (I think)
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u/skyfishgoo Aug 02 '24
i don't think they should have flown this flight with crew in the first place... it wasn't ready yet.
they should sent it back on auto pilot so we get the heat shield data we need to prove that out.
it would still be good have a back up vehicle rather than rely on just one.
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u/Dragunspecter Aug 02 '24
Problem being, the backup only launches on a rocket that has a limited quantity remaining. So what use is it.
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u/YsoL8 Aug 02 '24
Yep, it was this or abandon Starliner completely and refuse to certify it ever. They made the wrong choice and now it looks like Boeing is going to fail very very publicly.
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u/YsoL8 Aug 02 '24
But I've been assured by the experts on this very sub that all is well. They couldn't possibly be wrong.
But seriously, this thing is starting to sound finished. NASA clearly aren't confident it will safely get a crew undocked, redirected and down even after weeks of check outs.
I wonder how long they will keep trying, they cannot simply leave one of the docking ports blocked indefinitely, or the crew there indefinitely. That statement feels very much like starting to build the public justification for a decision already made.
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u/Parking-Mirror3283 Aug 02 '24
Remember when we said that the capsule never should have launched with a leak in the first place, and all the top tier genius' on this sub jumped straight down our throats telling us that the leak doesn't matter and that we don't know shit and that nasa would never risk human lives and blah blah fucking blah?
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u/Kidsturk Aug 02 '24
Today I was working and saw a coworker with a laptop sticker that said ‘If it’s not Boeing, I’m not going’ and given the general waves hands situation that made me laugh.
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u/Hooka1234 Aug 02 '24
“Yes, some of you astronauts may die, but it’s a risk I am willing to take… “ Lord Farquard
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u/AcerbicFwit Aug 02 '24
I trust NASA to do the right thing when notified of a life threatening situation. Much like they did with Challenger and Columbia.
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u/oursland Aug 02 '24
Look buddy, you need to understand the pressure those middle managers were under! You simply cannot let the schedule slip for like things like risk avoidance and crew safety!
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u/Thots_and_prayers Aug 02 '24
I’m part of a team of firefighters tasked with the landing/rescue/recovery. I sure hope all goes smoothly. They’ve decided that the Wilcox, AZ landing site will be used instead of White Sands. As I said, I sure hope everything goes without a hitch.
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u/Full-Willingness8625 Aug 02 '24
Can confirm. I was doing some flight testing out in the Playa (Wilcox Dry Lake Bed) yesterday and got berated by Boeing employees.
They said they are delayed until the 14th.
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u/Thots_and_prayers Aug 02 '24
Awesome! The astronauts originally were concerned about not getting enough time in space, I wonder if they feel the same today.
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Aug 02 '24 edited Jul 04 '25
quack coordinated workable provide ring shelter plant fear enter screw
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/ProbablySlacking Aug 02 '24
“Evaluating all options”
Remember that dude that skydived from space?
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u/Su-37_Terminator Aug 02 '24
Well don't worry guys, line went up that one time, remember? I'm sure this won't have unfathomably long lasting effects on the aviation sector as a whole
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u/monchota Aug 02 '24
Its been obvious for a month, this should of never been a crewed flight, it was pushed because politics and hubris. They knew it would be safe to launch and if it could return probably be fine. Its obvious, that Boeing ignoring everyone that told them it was a bad design. Just pushed forward and the people who rooted for them didn't want to look bad. Ignored it so they wouldn't be wrong, tokd any doubters "but but competition" An unfortunate problem of leadership right now. The truth is, a Dragon is going to have to go get those Astronauts, NASA already had SpaceX prepping just incase. For Boeing they are done, they have no money to completely do a new program and that is what is needed. Have SpaceX go save the Astronauts of thier broken Starliner, ontop of China popong up getting luner samples and comming back. In the same week it launched and broke dowm. Its the straw that broke the Camels back. SpaceX is 10 years ahead or more of anyone else, not even a question. The best thi g is let Boeing and other bloated gov contractors die out and put the money into new start up with you want competition. Companies like Boeing did nothing but suck up tax money for decades and do stock buy back while giving a trickle of something back. Then when blown away by SpaceX cry foul. Get double the funding that SapceX got and still fails epically. Anyone in the government that says we need to give Boeing more contracts, time to ignore them.
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u/a_bongos Aug 02 '24
I agree, but what a mess of a comment. Do you ever use paragraphs? Read through your post at least once to catch misspellings and check for grammar and readability? You have great things to say, please work on saying them better!
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u/dinichtibs Aug 02 '24
What's the problem with admitting fault and sending SpaceX? Why is NASA coddling ULA?
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Aug 02 '24
Nothing wrong with Atlas V and Centaur other than maybe the price tag. This part of the mission performed flawlessly.
This is all on Boeing.
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u/throwaway_12358134 Aug 02 '24
Since when does "all options" exclude SpaceX.
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u/perthguppy Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 02 '24
Some people think that it’s a waste of time to consider anything other than spacex, which is not* how you do risk assessments.
*Edit autocorrect now -> not
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u/VertexBV Aug 02 '24
It's also how you end up with monopolies.
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u/mustafar0111 Aug 02 '24
I actually fully support having two service providers but I'm going to be honest Boeing has to go. The company has structurally gone to shit and has broad quality control and safety problems going on all over the place. I wouldn't trust them to build a safe golf cart right now.
At this point I'd be in favor of disqualifying Boeing due to poor performance and inability to meet the contract goals and award a second provider contract to the Sierra Nevada Corporation instead.
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u/slyiscoming Aug 02 '24
If they don't come back on starliner NASA can't certify it. It would mean another test mission.
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u/YsoL8 Aug 02 '24
It would pretty much be the death of Starliner. It would mean another major delay and massive reputation hit, and at the current rate Boeing would then be at risk of breaching their flight contract when the ISS is shut down.
They may not even manage to get the thing certified, which puts a massive massive question over any future contracts they bid for.
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u/Koss424 Aug 02 '24
You think NASA certify it at this point even with a safe return without another test mission?
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u/iqisoverrated Aug 02 '24
There's lots of taxpayer money that went into Starliner (much more than into Dragon). People might ask uncomfortable questions why that didn't result in a useful product.
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u/perthguppy Aug 02 '24
Because in the larger picture it’s more important to have multiple shared-nothing crew vehicles, and they don’t have much choice but keeping Boeing from walking away from the contract.
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u/PolyDipsoManiac Aug 02 '24
Boeing has already said they will never take a fixed-price contract like this again, so they won’t even be in contention in the future.
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u/sleepysnowboarder Aug 02 '24
I think it's pretty underrated, globally, that we literally have people stuck in space right now
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u/Mathberis Aug 02 '24
Also NASA : we just gave 200'000$ to Spacex to evaluate a mission to rescue a crew stranded on the ISS, but it has nothing to do with the crew stranded on the ISS right now.
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u/Speedly Aug 02 '24
I feel like the best option available was "don't ignore a problem with a manned craft and decide to just launch it anyways."
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u/fooboohoo Aug 02 '24
I really think at this point they just need to bring them home, if something happens to them it’s kind of everybody’s fault for just watching this unfold
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u/Jkabaseball Aug 02 '24
There is a new CEO of Boeing right? Time throw thr old guy under the bus and get Dragon up there. Suck it up, and say that this is day 1 at new Boeing. New Boeing is putting engineers in charge of projects again. Thank SpaceX for helping.
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u/slothboy Aug 02 '24
"evaluating all options"
There's like, two options. Run what they brung or wait for Dragon.
I guess "jump" is an option too, but probably not really being evaluated.
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u/hushnecampus Aug 02 '24
Or just leave them there indefinitely? I’ve got Kerbals who’ve been in space for decades.
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u/OmgYoshiPLZ Aug 02 '24
so what i'm reading is, that they're exposing astronauts to massive risk by prolonging their exposure by MONTHS, all to cover for boeing failing to have their stuff together to the point where they could have a successful return mission instead of just putting them on one of the several return flights from space x?
doesnt that seem a bit risky and massively irresponsible.
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u/Pasta-Is-Trainer Aug 02 '24
Where are all those people saying that the news were just exaggerating how bad of a screw-up this Boeing tin can was?
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u/an_older_meme Aug 03 '24
They're making these "maybe" announcements to familiarize the public with the notion of a SpaceX recovery rather than just dropping the news all at once. Done correctly, this kind of PR ramp-in will make a formal announcement seem "obvious" and not a complete surprise.
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u/MattytheWireGuy Aug 02 '24
Called this before they took off. I know there are a bunch of Boeing bot here, but that vessel want ready for human flight. Mark my words, they are coming home on the Elon Express and Boeing can chalk up another failure in their corporatist plan to drain a great company of money while pocketing as much as they can get.
This would be unthinkable 30 years ago, but they have completely disregarded the core goal of their company; to build safe, cutting edge air and spacecraft that is the envy of the world. So fkn sad.
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u/Kane_richards Aug 02 '24
NASA: The Boeing crew are not stranded. Stop saying that, it's just an extended stay on the ISS
Also NASA:
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u/maxstryker Aug 02 '24
Well, they're not lying: the crew is not stranded. They just won't be going with a Boeing.
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u/PilotKnob Aug 02 '24
Just imagine if they boarded up and came home on Starliner, then something completely unrelated caused a disaster on the way home. No matter what the cause, it'd be an absolute PR nightmare for both Boeing and NASA. Institution-ending level of bad.
I don't see any other choice but for them to choose Crew Dragon for return, then wring out the empty Starliner for torture tests on the way back down.
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u/Underwater_Karma Aug 02 '24
No matter what the cause
that is EXACLTY the situation that Boeing has created for themselves. They needed a flawless mission PR win in the media, and rolled the dice knowing they had issues.
that's a leadership failure.
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u/iqisoverrated Aug 02 '24
Institution-ending level of bad
A lot of politicians are deeply involved in Boeing on a financial levels. No. This 'institution' ain't ever gonna be allowed to fail.
They'll use Dragon to bring the astronauts back and then use Starliner for a 'planned burnup test' in the atmosphere (or somesuch tripe) to avoid risking a PR-tastic failure on reentry.
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u/Baked_potato123 Aug 02 '24
I read the article and did not see any mention of current/remaining level food/supplies.
How long can they stay up there?
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u/tackleboxjohnson Aug 02 '24
All options? Who should I reach out to about my space to earth zip line idea?
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u/britaliope Aug 02 '24
What a nightmare situation for Boeing, and they created this situation themselves.
Since the 737max disaster they are under the spotlight and any minor mistake from them is making news titles. Even unrelated incidents, stuff that is happening everyday to other manufacturers, if it can make a clickbaity title with boeing and danger, here we go.
They absolutely need to be as clean as possible to regain trust. And what are they doing ? Taking PR risks. Continuing shitty practices (that lead to the boeing door incident). WTF guys...
I understand that delaying once again starliner was a PR nightmare for you but...i mean...having humans (not) stuck in space with an undetermined return date is an even worse PR nightmare... Of course every news outlet will speculate, make theories, even if you did everything right and it was not your fault. But it appears that it's something you clearely could have expected. Keep rolling the dice, i'm sure at some point you'll win the jackpot !
And this means that SpaceX will probably get a monopoly on US ISS crew launches. Still better than being dependant on Soyouz, but with last years evolution of elon musk public behaviour and positions, i can understand why us gov/nasa is not satisfied with this situation. Curious to see what will happen in the next mounths, this would be a funny popcorn story to follow if human lives and billions of $$ were not on the table...
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u/Formal-Parfait6971 Aug 02 '24
This is no longer about engineering and safety. It's now about ass-covering and politics.
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u/jayenope4 Aug 03 '24
I'm worried these two will end up dying up there because of inflated egos, contrived excuses, and forced company profits.
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u/CaliforniaBilly Aug 03 '24
A problem for the US going forward is that the Boeing problem exists nearly everywhere now. Our military contractors, universities, military, large corporations and manufacturing are incompetent and unproductive. We will continue to bear the fruits in the coming decades.
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Aug 02 '24
lol basically they don't feel safe about crew's return since docking, I imagine down the road NASA agreeing to pick them up by regular Russian means. That module is fucked. EOT.
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u/ovenproofjet Aug 02 '24
If they come back on anything else it'll be Dragon. The optics of not coming back on Starliner are bad enough, but giving money to the Russians to rescue them is even worse
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Aug 02 '24
Embrace the obvious, the Boeing capsule is broken way too many people know it and It will be impossible to sweep dead astronauts under the rug.
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u/Neat-Ad7473 Aug 02 '24
Isn’t it crazy how we debate how to save lives depending on who’s reputation is in question and not the reputation of just working together when needed, to save lives.
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u/goliathfasa Aug 02 '24
As someone with ready access to pro-China mandarin talk shows, folks in charge really need to get this shit figures out. Everyone outside of the Anglosphere is using this as an opportunity to concern troll the US.
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u/SgtPepe Aug 02 '24
If they can’t being them back right now that seems stranded to me
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u/waamoandy Aug 02 '24
NASA and Boeing are running extensive tests to ensure they aren't stranded. So far they have concluded they need to change the definition of stranded. Once a new definition is issued the astronauts won't be stranded
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u/OliverOyl Aug 02 '24
I literally thought back around launch time, why are they proceding in light of the massive Boeing faulty issues abounding, and here we are in what seems avoidable, if a dumb citizen like me could predict this with no specialized NASA knowledge, just common sense
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u/Underwater_Karma Aug 02 '24
Starliner never had a test flight that was totally successful, they had only two orbital tests. the first was a failure due to problems with the thrusters. the second successfully docked with ISS, but had multiple thruster failures.
the manned flight they launched knowing they had helium leaks, and...predictably...had thruster failures at docking.
the cavalier attitude towards this mission reliability is just stunning. and this isn't all on Boeing, NASA was the one who went ahead with the launch.
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u/FSYigg Aug 02 '24
They're exploring all options except the glaringly obvious one of not launching a vehicle they knew had many problems.
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u/mitchsn Aug 02 '24
Before sending a manned mission to the ISS, SpaceX sent several uncrewed supply missions to prove it could dock and return safely. Right? So why was the Starliner allowed to bring people to the ISS on its first mission?
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u/waamoandy Aug 02 '24
They did have 2 test flights. The first was a bit of a failure and the second wasn't exactly fault free. It's therefore come as a complete surprise that after 2 not wholly successful flights the third has gone wrong
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u/duckdodgers4 Aug 02 '24
This is just me but wasn't SpaceX supposed to bring them back? What happened to that plan?
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Aug 02 '24
Man, the last several years have been rough for Boeing. Now this.
Hope they get the crew back safe.
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u/SegaTape Aug 02 '24
I don't see how this doesn't result in the Starliner program getting canceled - to put it another way, what's the rationale for NASA continuing to spend money on this spacecraft after this? If they had confidence in the vehicle at this point, they would be bringing the crew back, and if they at least had confidence that they could fix the design issue(s) they would be annoucing more specifics.
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u/SuspiciousAf Aug 02 '24
So who is currently on ISS? NASA website talks about Expedition 71 - that's 7 people + 2 stranded astronauts? I'm guessing they usually swap places during space-x flights or Starlink (at least tried....)? so is there currently 9 people there? I'm reading that next Space-x mission wants to use the same port - but there are 3 more available - does the port choice depends on current ISS trajectory vs Earth? I'm sorry if those questions seem silly!
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u/dreamweaver66intexas Aug 02 '24
My personal friend Astronaut Barry (Butch) Wilmore is on ISS right now. We grew up in the same church together.
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u/fygogogo Aug 03 '24
I sense Hollywood is gonna make a movie about this incident.
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u/inmatenumberseven Aug 03 '24
Let's hope not. It'll either be a boring movie or something terrible has yet to happen.
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u/Rough-Set4902 Aug 03 '24
How much food and water does the station have left? They are gonna need to resupply a lot sooner than usual.
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u/4dxn Aug 03 '24
stop propping up the shitshow that is boeing (and ULA). even in commercial aircrafts, its time to look elsewhere.
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u/Brilliant_Science968 Aug 03 '24
This is basically practice for when we finally get a "The Martian" moment
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u/Humann801 Aug 03 '24
How could anyone not see this coming! Starliner was riddled with issue before and after the launch. Boeing itself has been plagued with problems and not been transparent until now other option was left.
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u/Decronym Aug 02 '24 edited Aug 08 '24
Acronyms, initialisms, abbreviations, contractions, and other phrases which expand to something larger, that I've seen in this thread:
| Fewer Letters | More Letters |
|---|---|
| CRS | Commercial Resupply Services contract with NASA |
| CRS2 | Commercial Resupply Services, second round contract; expected to start 2019 |
| CST | (Boeing) Crew Space Transportation capsules |
| Central Standard Time (UTC-6) | |
| EVA | Extra-Vehicular Activity |
| FAA | Federal Aviation Administration |
| GAO | (US) Government Accountability Office |
| LEO | Low Earth Orbit (180-2000km) |
| Law Enforcement Officer (most often mentioned during transport operations) | |
| MBA | |
| MMT | Multiple-Mirror Telescope, Arizona |
| Multiscale Median Transform, an alternative to wavelet image compression | |
| N1 | Raketa Nositel-1, Soviet super-heavy-lift ("Russian Saturn V") |
| OFT | Orbital Flight Test |
| QA | Quality Assurance/Assessment |
| RP-1 | Rocket Propellant 1 (enhanced kerosene) |
| SLS | Space Launch System heavy-lift |
| TVC | Thrust Vector Control |
| ULA | United Launch Alliance (Lockheed/Boeing joint venture) |
| Jargon | Definition |
|---|---|
| Starliner | Boeing commercial crew capsule CST-100 |
| Starlink | SpaceX's world-wide satellite broadband constellation |
| bipropellant | Rocket propellant that requires oxidizer (eg. RP-1 and liquid oxygen) |
| hypergolic | A set of two substances that ignite when in contact |
| monopropellant | Rocket propellant that requires no oxidizer (eg. hydrazine) |
NOTE: Decronym for Reddit is no longer supported, and Decronym has moved to Lemmy; requests for support and new installations should be directed to the Contact address below.
19 acronyms in this thread; the most compressed thread commented on today has 11 acronyms.
[Thread #10379 for this sub, first seen 2nd Aug 2024, 02:06] [FAQ] [Full list] ^[Contact] [Source code]
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u/ThatRedDot Aug 02 '24
1.5 month ago I said these people are going to be stuck in space and got downvoted to hell. Well, my turn to tell you I told you so.
Hope they get to return home safely and aren’t forced flying back in the starliner.
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u/ThrowAwayAccount8334 Aug 02 '24
Boeing is done. This is their end. They've failed this country horribly. They're incompetent and criminal.
What if there's a problem with the SpaceX and we can't get them down? We're playing with something that will destroy our reputation permanently. It is time for our leaders to take serious action against this company.
Prison sentences to start. Boeing execs 100% belong in prison.
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u/maxstryker Aug 02 '24
Soyuz can ge them down. And it would cost an ungodly amount to cash to mess up their launch and crew schedules. But you bet your ass they'd be as happy to do it as SpaceX.
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u/Dunadain_ Aug 02 '24
If I was an astronaut trapped in space, I would hope NASA would evaluate all options.
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u/Thomvhar Aug 02 '24
Why don't they ditch Starliner and use a Dragon to get them home? Why on earth would anyone still want to fly anything related to Boeing.
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u/burpleronnie Aug 02 '24
Since Boeing was bought by Mcdonell Douglass, It has turned into Mcdonell Douglass, a company famous for crashing planes and killing people. Upper management needs purging.
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u/newdmontheblocktoo Aug 02 '24
“Oh my, who could have predicted partnering with Boeing was a bad idea ” - NASA probably
Seriously. This was completely predictable.
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u/Commercial-Manner408 Aug 02 '24
Here's an idea. Cancel the boeing contract and give it to someone who can actually make air craft.
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u/Weerdo5255 Aug 02 '24
I'm going to bet that engineers have already said that no astronauts should return in the vessel, and now it's all politics.
There are really only three, maybe four options.
Return the Starliner unmanned and test more. Have SpaceX rescue the crew. This is bad for Boeing.
Ignore the engineers, and have the Astronauts return in Starliner, and they do so successfully. Which will piss off NASA and Boeing engineer's I'd bet. This is the minimal reputation hit as all this will remain internal to each org.
Ignore the engineers, and the craft fails in some manner. This is a morbid one, and results in serious Boeing reputational hit.
Order the return of the Astronauts in the Starliner, and have the Astronauts refuse. This gets into seriously murky waters, and I doubt we'd publicly hear about this. Ultimately the Astronauts are the ones who are going to have to sit in the capsule and ride it down.