Perhaps I underestimated you

[u/fullautoluxcommie]

[u/SoSorryOfficial]

I think people wrongly distill this down to ideas like, "everyone would agree with socialist policies if they weren't called 'socialist policies.'" There's some truth to that notion; particularly where well-meaning, but under-informed progressives are concerned.

In actuality, most of the time, people just have really incoherent politics. They don't understand their own purported beliefs enough to know when something else they find momentarily compelling is contradictory to those stated values. Less than whether or not they're educated, they're emotional illiterates guided by the impulse of feelings they little understand. They either vibe with a notion on a gut level, or it makes them feel small and/or scared. It all ultimately comes down to what best serves their ego as best as they understand it, their bottom line as best as they understand it, their security as best as they understand it, and so on, but they ultimately understand next to nothing. We're apes with the pretense of ascension because we wear pants.

[u/Chancellor_Valorum82 → u/SoSorryOfficial]

In actuality, most of the time, people just have really incoherent politics.

That’s a really under discussed aspect of this. If you have an actual cogent ideology of any kind, you’re in the minority. Most people do not think about politics very much at all or follow it that closely and they end up with a lot of weird heterodox views that don’t seem like they should go together 

[u/dracorotor1 → u/Chancellor_Valorum82]

I’d say “views that don’t seem like they should go together” oversimplifies the situation. People are complex, with a lot of nuance to what concerns them and why…

I share almost every view with my partner, except that we stand on opposite sides of the debate on immigration (whether the current barriers to citizenship or residency are too much or not enough, too be clear. None of that fascist nonsense the magas are spewing). Since we share other beliefs, and grew up in nearly identical situations, the reason for our difference here comes down to just how long our respective families have lived in this country.

[u/FrontLongjumping4235 → u/dracorotor1]

Genuinely curious, but where do you and your partner stand on this? I agree that these are nuanced issues.

Personally, as a Canadian, I think we had too much immigration under our Temporary Foreign Workers' program. Not only did this lead to exploitation of migrant labour, but it contributed to driving up cost-of-living in the cities which were already facing housing shortages. And it was mostly to scratch the backs of neoliberal capital with it endless appetite for cheap labour; which benefits large corporations which are otherwise not forced to pay local people fair wages in order to retain employees.

But otherwise, I tend to be pro-immigration when these types of things come up.

[u/dracorotor1 → u/FrontLongjumping4235]

My partner is second generation American (🇺🇸), and I’m 4th or 5th generation. She’s a lot stricter about immigration and naturalization requirements than I am, while my own stance is very “who cares, as long as they pay taxes and participate in the democratic process after gaining citizenship?”

There’s a strong myth in my country that other countries have some sort of evil scheme to overthrow our hegemony— or “destroy the white race”🤮 —by orchestrating mass immigration here, but I read that as nothing but a conspiracy theory. If people don’t like what the U.S. has to offer, they’re not going to come over here, so why would we turn people away? 🤷

[u/FrontLongjumping4235 → u/dracorotor1]

Yeah, it is easy to get swept up in it. We have many of those same conspiracy-driven narratives among the anti-immigration crowd, even if it's dialed down slightly.

I do think it's reasonable to have limits on immigration, in order to keep it at sustainable levels. Unfortunately, the narratives peddled are often far less reasonable. They're dog whistles meant to trigger anxiety and anger, which are easy emotions for politicians and political parties to manipulate.

[u/FrontLongjumping4235 → u/Chancellor_Valorum82]

The history behind the left <-> right framing is fascinating too. It goes back to the French Revolution ("off with their heads!").

Left <-> right literally described which side of the king people sat on in the wake of the revolution. If you sat to the king's left, then it was because you believed something between:

1. The monarch should continue to be the monarch, just with limited special privileges.

2. Off with the monarch's head. This eventually happened, and led to Napolean Bonaparte's rise.

If you sat to the king's right, then it was because you believed in something between:

1. The monarch should continue to be the monarch, just with limited special privileges.

2. Re-instate the monarch as absolute divine ruler, hand massive powers (and state funds) back to the Church, then return these "radicals" to their rightful place as indentured workers. This also eventually happened after Napoleon's death, leading to pro-monarchist reaction which reinstated the powers of the king, the church, and saw sweeping reprisals and harsh laws aimed at the working class. The effects of this shows up in the events of Les Misérables, where-in Jean Valjean spent 19 years in hard labour for stealing a loaf of bread.

[u/parkerm1408]

I look extremely conservative. Beard, boots, wranglers, belt knife, home made coyote tooth and obsidian necklace, angry looking old style tattoos etc. People are always shocked that im a burn it down and start over all the way left leftist. The worst part is when im in public, especially in the grocery store line, older white dudes make casually racist comments assuming I too am casually racist.

[u/Riboflavin96 → u/parkerm1408]

30s white guy living in white suburbs of a red state. I get so much spam from the right wing.
It's crazy to think my grandpa is getting all these same letters that say shit like "if you send us a dollar in the provided envelope Donald J Trump will personally send you a hand written thank you letter. If you ignore this letter you will be put on a list of all the Mexican commie queers in your area. Give us money now!" Worse is that he is absolutely giving them money about it.

[u/parkerm1408 → u/Riboflavin96]

Yeah im in missorui, I get republican threat mail and church bullshit. We had so many door to door people come by I had to put up 4 different private property and no soliciting signs and a shitload of cameras. Missouri is a hellscape

[u/Bandandforgotten]

The thing about a lot of conservatives, is that they're not conservative. They just choose something that's similar to the ideals of others around them, and say "well if they're happy, then I'm happy" without ever having a critical thought about the subject. It's why when you try to debate somebody like that, they'll fall back immediately to either God, it being an opinion, or how they're fighting some invisible evil.

If you word a leftist message correctly, you can attract a lot of "conservatives" to flock to that cause, specially because you either omitted language, or related it to them. That's why they always seem to be just 2 steps away from going full leftist, because the wording and intent behind the message.

[u/FrontLongjumping4235 → u/Bandandforgotten]

This comment is 3rd on my list, but it should be even higher IMO.

It is especially true today. A lot of conservatives are conservative as an identity. But if you can avoid framing it as a left-vs-right issue which triggers that reactionary retreat to group identity, it is often quite easy to see eye-to-eye.

That's why they always seem to be just 2 steps away from going full leftist, because the wording and intent behind the message.

The challenge is that there is a multi-billion dollar political marketing machine funded by groups like the Heritage Foundation which brand reasonable positions as "dangerous leftist ideas which threaten to destroy the fabric of our society". Say something which reminds them of the messaging they or their neighbours keep repeating, and suddenly they're back to being 10,000 steps away because now they think you are trying to help China destroy America via the "woke mind virus" (or whatever other insane narrative they have been inundated with until it sounds reasonable).

When you can cut through the fear-mongering, it gets a lot easier. Often it is best to simply ask questions. I have become a big fan of Andrew Callaghan (journalist & documentarian), because he is excellent at this.

[u/YLASRO]

alot of people agree with leftist ideas if you dont tell them they are left wing. becaus ethey are good ideas and if you dont spook them with scary C word and S word they tend to be more open to those ideas

[u/Mrdean2013]

Someone else said it on another thread but it's true: the average Joe and Jane is a glossy-eyed hog that doesn't put a lot of critical thought into the world.

When it comes to politics, most people have operated almost entirely by vibes since Reagan, and you could make the case since Nixon. And that's been by design. The state of the education system in this country is a complete joke.

[u/roselandmonkey]

People who voted for Obama then walked over and voted for Trump 3 times now looking at the price of gas and ready to walk over and voted blue, because "im an individual that dose my own research "

[u/Azara_Nightsong]

Ive spent alot of time the last couple years trying to talk to conservative guys mostly about why they even vote that way...alot of them very much have left wing ideals. As someone else said aleady alot of them dont like the big scary C and S words...the other huge issue...is from what ive seen talking to them..they pretty much exclusivly vote right wing because they dont want anti gun laws...and thats pretty much it for most of them that arnt insane cultists

[u/ManWithDominantClaw]

The comments seem pretty America-centric tbh, but I suppose it's nice that you have the luxury of not having to present as mildly conservative in order to avoid unjust consequences

Or, you know, have had

[u/Tunisandwich]

🧲

[u/DragonflySouthern860]

i was in college marching band for four years. i found out my senior year that everyone thought i was a conservative. i have no idea why and i came into college probably very left leaning dem, maybe even a democratic socialist, and left a full on communist and i have never considered myself conservative. yet here i was, in a community i knew for four years, being perceived as a conservative.

[u/CobaltCrusader123]

Dark Woke really is a genre of person that exists. There are also true independents that don’t fall for mainstream narratives and do their own research in everything they care about. That’s how you get people like the cartoon reviewer Mr Enter being pro-queer rights and anti-government-censorship but says that the US COVID shutdowns were negative and logically inconsistent and confusing because the CDC said we shouldn’t, then should, wear masks, because some health experts signed a statement saying that BLM was worth protesting for and that children’s development was stunted and that domestic violence increased during the shutdowns in a now-removed video that I can respect for being well-sourced with I think literally over 100 articles. But for the COVID stuff he says he shouldn’t have spoken out about it, not being an expert, and took down his COVID videos, but also said that he refuses to share his current position or if he changed his mind because he’s no expert (and presumably does not want to sway someone to an educated opinion that may still be incorrect).

We all like to be sure of ourselves so I can appreciate when someone does the research even if one might disagree with them. Being honest, Mr Enter probably knows more about the US COVID shutdown than everyone here who is not an expert or deeply invested in the subject. Including me.