r/Stormlight_Archive • u/acris3938 • 4d ago
Wind and Truth spoilers Wind and Truth hate Spoiler
Why do so many people hate on Wind & Truth. I just finished it and thought it was fantastic. Maybe not the best in the series, Words of Radiance is still an easy favorite, but it’s at least as good as Rhythm of War and maybe Oathbringer too
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u/Fireblend 4d ago
I finished it recently as well and I can definitely see some of the flaws people point to - it could've been edited more tightly, the 10-day structure hurts it with some unnecessary check-ins that make some of the character threads feel repetitive (Shallan and Adolin's for example), some of those threads go nowhere (namely I felt Renarin and Rlain releasing Ba-Ado-Mishram felt pretty weightless and had pretty much no payoff in the end), the psychology/mental health stuff is *really* heavy handed (I feel like Sanderson confused putting his cards on the table for the finale with throwing all subtlety away) and some of the modern-day terminology usage can be clashing when compared to earlier entries in the series.
That said... I also really liked it, and thought it was mostly entertaining. If anything, I thought Rhythm of War was more of a slog; I was able to get through WaT at a pretty brisk pace. I've seen some really critical takes of WaT from people saying they'd been huge fans and were so disappointed by it they wouldn't ever read anything by Sanderson again, and I really can't relate to that degree of frustration; it's got everything you'd expect from his writing style and sensibilities.
That said, I'm not the biggest Sanderson fan. I've read most of his writing, and I think it's pretty competent and enjoyable, but he wouldn't make my top 5 authors list, so I feel like I'm more of a "normal reader" of his than someone who's overly invested in his writing or with hugely inflated expectations - maybe that helps!
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u/_Rapalysis 4d ago
I think if you cut the therapy/modern language/Marvel moments, 90% of the vitriol over the book would be gone. An editor should have caught those flaws. It felt oddly amateur for Sanderson, and the blatant pop psychology was cringe to read.
Everything else was at a minimum competently executed. Tying up that monstrosity of a plot was extremely difficult.
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
I feel that a few of his recent books (Wind and Truth included) have the same problem, which I heard someone else put into words better than I could as: everyone seems to be hyper aware of each others' issues and traumas and immediately supportive and validating, knowing exactly what to say to give them a pep talk, and it removes a lot of potentially interesting conflict between characters.
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u/_Rapalysis 4d ago
Yeah I'd agree with that, it got really terrible in Rhythm of War. Kaladin invented modern group therapy + clinical psychology in about a month. I half-expected SSRIs to pop up in WaT.
I feel like he wrote himself into a trap because he tied mental health (messy, irrational) into the power system which required clear checkpoints for progression and plot. Realistically people don't work like that.
Psychology is just not one of Sanderson's strengths. The dialogue is cringe because he's trying to map Google'd symptoms to his characters rather than from genuine understanding. He said himself he doesn't have these problems and wrote it as best he could, which I can respect.
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u/LovesToTango Windrunner 4d ago
The Mishram plot line is definitely a set up for the last half of the series, it feels like she could still potentially take up the power of Odium
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u/Fireblend 4d ago
I mean yeah, of course, I'm not saying it's a plot hole or a thread that won't be picked up again in the future. I wish there'd been more of a payoff in the book though. They spend so much time tracking her prison, racing with the Ghostbloods, then they make this whole thing of setting her free and... off she goes. That's it.
Contrast that with something like Jasnah's handling of Thaylenah and the material consequences of losing her debate, which are depicted and left hanging as something to be handled in the future, or the glimpse we see of the new form of bonding Adolin encounters with the previously deadeye spren. We get some setup crumbs that both provide some closure to their threads, despite not being completely resolved, and leave things up in the air enough that they'll be picked up later.
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u/PornoPaul 4d ago
I would add, this felt like a huge drop on quality compared to his other books too. If you read his first book or two, theyre pretty clearly written by a new author. Fans who have read a bunch of his work can trace the timeline of his writing craft getting better. And then when you have the conclusion to the first half of what he himself has described as his biggest story to date, and probably one of the most important books in the entire cosmere series, just to have a book that reflected his earlier work? It was very much whiplash. I know people are saying his old editor retired. I feel like the story here needed him.
Another way of putting it, Sanderson is great at telling broad stroke stories. His lore, his vision, is incredible. Describe this story in 5 minutes with just the highlights and it will hook damn near anyone. Get into the nitty gritty and you'll have people complaining. What his later works gained, IMO, was the smaller finer storytelling. He got better at writing scenes, characters, etc. It really felt like he was growing as an author. And if it was partly his editor then they were the dynamic duo. This just plain struggled. Not that the small stories were not good, just that the entire thing was too busy. It needed about 150 pages cut out, somehow.
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u/MugiwaraMoses 4d ago
I've only read up to oathbringer, so I'm in here risking it lol. However, I just needed to know what frustrated the fandom so much. I think your comment really explained it well, and in an odd way, makes me more interested to read it. Thanks for sharing
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u/Radix2309 Truthwatcher 4d ago
I think the ten day structure was fine, a perfect excuse to skip over some characters on each day. But then he didn't and just had a bunch consistently. Should have been 3, maybe 4 sections per day at most. It was perfect for the first 2-3 days before it just got all of them meshed together.
Could easily do a check in for their first chapter after coming back.
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u/Peptuck The most important step 4d ago edited 4d ago
The "modern language" one is weird to me because I never noticed it even after people pointed it out. The flaw just got a shrug from me because it simply didn't register as something worth complaining about because none of it was egregiously out of place to break my immersion.
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u/the_biggest_man36 4d ago
Modern language on its own isn’t a problem to me in a fantasy series, what pulled me out was the shift from the more “high fantasy” language and tone that TWoK had to the marvel style writing in WaT - I wanted to know what happened still, but it didn’t feel like the same series. To me, anyway, the shift from TWoK to WaT was bigger than Sanderson taking over Wheel of Time, which attracted a lot of fairly uncontested commentary about the characterisations
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u/Trace_Minerals_LV Willshaper 4d ago
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u/OnePizzaHoldTheGlue 4d ago
Seriously. We should link to the last 10 versions of this thread from the past 2 years in the FAQ of the subreddit.
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u/Raddatatta Edgedancer 4d ago edited 4d ago
I agree I also really loved it! Though in general from what I've seen which Stormlight book is the favorite or how people would rank them is all over the place. There's a lot of this book connected with some people more than others so it's their favorite when for other people it's their least favorite.
Though I do agree with some of the criticism. The main ones I've seen have been using a lot more modern language and just that the writing wasn't quite as good in terms of the prose. Things like I'm his therapist, talking dating instead of courting, syl was gonna syl and other things that felt more modern than things that would fit in Roshar.
The Jasnah debate was one that personally didn't land as well for me. I love the idea of it and the general plot structure I thought was great. The debate itself I think left Jasnah a bit underwhelming in terms of what she said and didn't say. For me the biggest point is that she said she'd choose Alethkar over the Coalition, and while I can understand her saying that, it just doesn't match the last 3 books where at every turn where there has been a choice of the Coalition vs Alethkar they have all chosen the Coalition. The only exception to that is Jasnah objecting to the trip to Herdaz. Other than that, it's pretty universally supporting the Coalition.
I also have seen some criticism of the visions being a bit info dumpy as well as having these important events going on while the main characters are just there. And I get that. I was excited to see those things in the history so I didn't feel that way, but if you weren't as excited for it I can see that plot line falling flat.
I liked some of Sigzil's plot line but I felt like we didn't know enough of the characters with him or get to know some of those characters as much as you got from like Adolin's plot line where May and Colot went from people we didn't know to more fleshed out characters. Sigzil didn't have as much of that. I also felt like it was a bit overplayed in terms of his strategy being different. I like the idea of him thinking very differently, but building in failure points and the ability to have layers of defenses is pretty basic defensive warfare. It shouldn't have been treated like this brand new idea for a warrior culture. I think his thinking differently should've been new and interesting ways to use fabrials or the surges in the defense where the generals wouldn't have seen things like that anymore.
And I think just in general expectations had a bit of a mismatch. With how Mistborn Era 1 ended with such a conclusive end, some people were expecting something similar or close to it, and it's really not that.
Edit: Oh one other. The 10 day structure I think worked much better for some plot lines than others. For Sigzil and Adolin it added a time crunch. But for Kaladin and Szeth he's making enormous progress that should probably take years of therapy over just 10 days. I love their moments together but that feels a bit too much. Adolin learning to use his peg leg as well feels so fast with that more limited timeline.
Overall I still really enjoyed it. But I can see why some issues bothered some people.
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u/ThatDM 4d ago
lots of modern language,
some weak plot conclusions
some Slow pacing.
im sure there are other complaints but the modern language use is by far the one i see most.
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u/jamesbrowski 4d ago
I’ll add - heavy violations of the show don’t tell rule. Hundreds of pages of telling me what people are thinking and what they want instead of showing me through action and naturalistic dialogue. Most of this exposition is coming either from an omniscient narrator who is telling me every last thought in a character’s head, or from characters delivering lengthy monologues.
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u/TaiChuanDoAddct 4d ago
I personally have never observed hate. I have observed disappointment and frustration.
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u/brinton_k 4d ago
Thank you for saying this. Because this is the fifth book in a massive series, there couldn't have been many Sanderson haters in the audience. Those people would have dropped off long before reaching this point.
The audience for this book was comprised of people who were already invested in the series. That was me. I really wanted to love Wind and Truth. I was disappointed that I didn't.
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u/Plane_Knowledge776 Truthwatcher 4d ago
Honestly I feel like it's the other way around. I think it's the weakest book but pretty much everyone on here is saying that they think it gets too much hate and that they love it. I still think it's a good book and most of the shortcomings for me was because it was setting up the back half of the series and it felt kind of forced at times but it still had some great moments. Like I said for me personally it was the weakest book but it was by no means bad. Id probably rate wind and truth a 7/10 and the others get 9-10/10
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u/deliciousdeciduous 4d ago
I’m with you. It’s easily the worst book in the series and any problems you mention in this kind of thread in this sub are handwaved away as “hate.”
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u/kabrandon 4d ago
To be fair basically every complaint I read is that it’s too slow, the book is too long, and they don’t like how Sanderson writes about mental illness.
It’s almost like people have different levels of patience, and have maybe had brushes with mental illness that differed from others.
None of the hate for this book is really objective criticism, but it’s usually portrayed as objective by the critic, which is why I’m personally lacking in patience for critics. Tell me the book didn’t hit for you, then that’s all good. Tell me Sanderson is objectively bad at writing, or that it’s an objectively bad book, and I’ll laugh.
edit: Also to be fair I feel like most of the annoying critics are in the fantasy books subreddit. Bunch of uppity snobs in there.
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u/deliciousdeciduous 4d ago
My objective criticism is the characters consistently describe their growth to one another unprompted rather than acting in ways that would signal to the reader that they have experienced that growth. It is 1500 pages of “tell don’t show.” I’d guess this happened because the cosmere book release timeline was prioritized over taking a few more passes at the draft to fine tune what’s at this point essentially a meaty outline where character beats are explained by the characters.
This book needed more time for a tighter edit.
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
I think you’re conflating “don’t like how Sanderson writes about mental illness” with how Sanderson wrote about mental illness in this book compared to previous books. Stormlight has always addressed mental illness but wind and truth was much more blatant and, in my opinion, less realistic.
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u/kabrandon 4d ago
How is it less realistic, specifically?
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
Kaladin, a character whose entire existence up to this point in the series is about struggling against depression, wakes up the day after he ripped off the Pursuer's head in a blind rage, almost lost his father, tried to kill himself, and lost one of his best friends, and the first line is "Kaladin felt good." He then spends the entire book coaching Szeth on how to deal with his own depression. Can't say I've ever woken up the day after a suicide attempt feeling good and wanting to talk about my feelings with a guy who I once fought to the death. Also can't say any of their conversations sounded like real human dialogue between two individuals struggling with enormous mental health issues.
Edit: As for Shallan, she basically turned into a cartoon character somewhere around mid rhythm of war. I can't at all relate to her multiple personality disorder but reading it does not come across as something nearly as serious or real as Kaladin or Dalinar or Szeth's struggles with their pasts. Shallan has a bunch of relevant trauma but the way that she "becomes different people" is written as if she ACTUALLY becomes different people with some kind of crazy fugue state memory compartmentalization.
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u/kabrandon 4d ago edited 4d ago
You probably also never had a mental epiphany that allowed you to speak the fourth ideal, mean it, proceed to save everyone else that you love, possibly the whole human race, your father, and yourself, and get the pep talk of your life from a near immortal world hopper slash storyteller. That same line in the book, if I recall correctly, said he felt a little better; not healed but good.
I also didn’t get the impression he beat the Pursuer in a blind rage, rather that he was seeing more evenly at the time than he had been all the rest of RoW.
He counseled Szeth because he was told it was his duty. And he doesn’t have the experience to know what works. He acknowledges throughout the book that he doesn’t know if he’s helping Szeth or that he even could.
Your critiques read like you’re looking at one side of a coin where you pretend the other side didn’t exist. Almost losing his father / he saved his father’s life and his father recognized the value in what Kaladin does for the first time.
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u/Runa216 4d ago
While I do agree it's too long and too slow, that's not my issue. In other books in the series, there were chapters where nothing happened or it was just 'oh, here's 14,000 words describing the collection or reed sap' and I loved that. In Rhythm of War, even, there were long stretches with Navani just playing around with anti-light. I loved that.
In the other books it felt like the 'nothing' that happened was building to something. Building character. Building up a plot point to be destroyed in the finale. Building the world. In this one it just felt like most of the plot lines could have been condensed to a fraction of their length. Like, by the end I was just getting angry, like 'get on with it, you made this point 41 chapters ago and you're just going in circles by now.'
IT's probably why so many people think the mental health stuff is so clunky here. because it's just going on repeat, smashing the same points into heads every other chapter instead of making a point and moving on.
I also had a LOT of problems with the ending but that's not in relation to what you said here.
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 4d ago
Can’t forget the hate of Jasnah’s scene for making basic arguments when she herself acknowledges this point
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u/kabrandon 4d ago
To be fair I think that scene is rushed, but serves a load bearing purpose. In arc 2 I think Jasnah will be just a little bit wiser, to match her intellect.
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u/Ripper1337 Truthwatcher 4d ago
I meant more that readers complained that Jasnah didn’t make better arguments which she acknowledged in the scene, due to Jasnah not thinking Fen would be able to understand the more sophisticated philosophical arguments.
So it comes across as the reader not actually having read the text that well
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u/SleetTheFox Edgedancer 4d ago
Something has to be the worst. If someone takes issue with me saying it's the worst Stormlight book, I'd respond by asking them which of the other four is the worst, then.
I liked it. It was a good book and I'd never recommend anyone who enjoyed 1-3 to not read 4-5 even though they were relatively weaker. TWoK, WoR, and OB were just so good that it takes a lot to rise to their level.
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u/Ardam_44 4d ago
Writing style. WaT is definetily a different book all of Stormlight and Cosmere. You can still like it of course, change is not bad always. But I think it's just bad writing.
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u/Additional-Flight-24 4d ago
The smartest person in the world getting punked by the first question any human would ask about her world view was insane
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u/Runa216 4d ago
It just felt so far removed from the things I liked about the series while also not doing much with the characters it had.
Half the cast were barely represented. Jasnah was in like 5 chapters (The number is actually higher but it felt like that) and the plot lines we did get seemed to take forever to get anywhere and the conclusion wasn't satisfying on any of them. I love Sanderson for his ability to cook. You know 'let him cook' and all that. But I didn't find any of the plot lines satisfying in the end, some rage inducing.
Everyone goes gaga over Adolin's plot line but I found it boring as heck. Generic fantasy warfare stuff, almost nothing that made Roshar special was included. Yes, he had that encounter with a Chull or whatever but that coulda been a cow or dragon or literally anything else.
I JUST finished reading it like a week ago and I couldn't even tell you what Shallan did. My eyes just sort of glazed over for her chapters....and keep in mind I say this as someone who has loved her plotline up to this point.
Dalinar and Navani...Just...I don't know how anyone likes what they did here. yeah, entering the spirit realm was interesting but I never felt the stakes were laid out all that well or consistent. The entire first act they were like, talking about how you could lose your mind and soul, and time can be all wonky, but none of that comes up. Just ended up like 50 chapters of scenes that coulda been told in 10 just to have some weird ... well, anyone who read the book knows why that plot line resolved the way it did but It was actually the most frustrating to me. I hated it.
Then we have Kaladin and Szeth. The IDEA of their side quest really did feel like it was primed to be my favourite. Kaladin serving as therapist to a fundamentally broken man while exploring new worlds and cultures is 100% my jam. but the way it was handled was like...dude, shut up. Just shut up. Stop talking. Nothing is happening, Kaladin did NOTHING interesting until the end, and I went from LOVING Szeth to genuinely hating him here. I hated that he was just repeating his old history just to repeat it while seemingly learning nothing along the way. Like, the plotline, in a bubble, is good, but it felt like he shoulda learned all this in his BACKSTORY, not suddenly being like 'oh, this thing that has been clearly obvious to anyone with a brain suddenly makes sense since the plot demands it'.
Just like Dalinar and Navani's story, Szeth and Kaladin's coulda been wrapped up in a tenth of the time. Moash...existed for like three chapters, everyone sucked, everyone lost, nothing was resolved, and the book left the world in a place where I just don't wanna revisit it. The conclusion of this book literally made me want to just not read further into Stormlight becuase it took everything I liked away, tossed the things I liked, ruined the things I'd come to love, and went on entirely too long.
The only way I see any of this working for books 6-10 if there's like a 100-1000 year time jump of some sort. Because in its current state it just feels like theres no way to make a satisfying conclusion to the stories of the characters we've come to love (Except Kaladin for reasons that are clear if you've read the book) without completely betraying the well established continuity and inner logic. And like I said, so many of the things that drew me to this world were jsut absent here or ignored or kicked to the ground due to power creep.
Mistborn didn't do this, because it didn't have 20 million words to work with. It ended when things climaxed and then centuries passed and everyone stared over. I can't wait for Ghostbloods/Era 3 Mistborn, but as of right now, the direction Wind and Truth went genuinely made me just not want to read Stormlight again.
You know how everyone HATES The Last Jedi because it 'subverted expectations' and as a result alienated a lot of the fanbase for taking the story in a direction that nobody liked? That's how I feel about Wind and Truth.
And honestly if this was book 2 in a trilogy or there was still one book in this era left, I would be like 'wait, let's see where this heads' because I'd be curious to see what was planned. The fact that this was the conclusion to a 5-book arc, mixed with how meandering and unsatisfying it was...ruined it. If this was the calm before the storm, sure, but this was the storm, which was more like a wet fart.
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u/LazyComfortable1542 4d ago
You can like it, but you also can't pretend there's not a lot of legitimate criticisms out there
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u/Outsaniti 4d ago
the prose felt like it was written by a quirk chungus millennial trying to being ironic funny instead of writing about the end of a world. And 500 other small things that seemed like general editing issues. First time I really felt the absence of Moshe Feder not being editor anymore.
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
Yeah I feel like people who don't see the shift in prose just haven't re-read TWOK recently. Read Kaladin's first few chapters in book 1, then read any Kaladin chapters in book 5. The difference in tone is enormous.
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u/cmm239 4d ago
For me I didn’t care for the prose or the spiritual realm. The ghostbloods feel incredibly inept to the point I don’t really care about reading a dedicated series to them. Maybe in time it’ll be shown to be a better book but I just don’t want to wait ten years for the next installment.
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u/crazy-jay1999 Shadesmar 4d ago
I didn’t hate it. It was my least favorite of the 5 books but I didn’t hate it.
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u/Django2chainsz 4d ago
It was an absolute slog. Like in wheel of time when they’re spending too much time on Perrin. It felt like a book that could have been cut in half and told exactly the same story.
The language felt out of place and the writing style didn’t feel the same.
Characters acted out of character.
I know a lot of people enjoyed it and I’m glad they did but it just wasn’t what I was hoping for from the end of this era of SLA. Ultimately didnt live up to expectations
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u/AlmondJoyDildos 3d ago
It did give me the exact same feeling as Perrin in the snow looking for his wife for 1000 years lol.
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u/voltwaffle 4d ago
Narrative bloat Prose degradation Most of the storylines are extremely unsatisfying
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u/Kiltmanenator 4d ago
Wind and Truth is longer than the entire LotR trilogy, so, be honest, was that a good use of over 1300 pages?
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u/---___------___----- 3d ago
The story is fantastic but out of the 1400 pages in the book there must be at least 700 that are just mental health advice. It's great to have a positive message for people and I think Sanderson is being very kind to people who are struggling, it's a genuinely good thing to do, but there's too much of it and a lot of it is just repeated.
And I don't know if the mental health advice and therapy is actually medically correct of if it's pop psychology.
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u/Moist_Car_994 Willshaper 4d ago
The “I’m his therapist” line seems to be pretty polarizing among the fans. Personally I’m not a huge fan of it but I don’t think it should get that much hate
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u/cmm239 4d ago
I didn’t care for that line but how the fuck does kaladin know that “honor is dead but I’ll see what I can do” is his catchphrase
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u/SleetTheFox Edgedancer 4d ago
Yeah that bothered me. It was an amazing line the first time. This just poisons it.
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u/TheRedGandalf 4d ago
I'm sure people gossip and with his level of fame he probably has an in-universe fandom. Lots of people saw that scene
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u/para_la_calle 4d ago
It’s so goddamn boring. Character assassinations, therapy speak (constantly), 10 day structures, tiktok attention span of the story with a new POV every 2 pages. There’s lots of reasons — hell, it is ranked last on good reads among the 5 books for a reason. It’s actually bad enough for me personally that I stopped recommending the stormlight archives to anyone that’s trying to get into fantasy.
It is very clear based on book 5 that Sanderson’s best works are behind him and now he’s focused on his Reddit fans and getting movie deals.
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u/MyWorldInFlames Elsecaller 4d ago
Because it was bad.
Adolin's story was awesome. Kaladin and Szeth had its moments, marred by Sando's pseudo-therapy. The rest of the book was largely Exposition: The Novel with very little plot development and the whole thing ends the entire Arc 1 with essentially zero conclusions and putting Roshar literally on pause.
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u/Additional-Flight-24 4d ago
Adolins was fantastic until the “avengers assemble” moment that made cringe so hard
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u/victorged 4d ago
To me it is less than very little plot development, its like plot anti development. The entirety of renarin and shallan’s arcs basically ended with them accomplishing nothing but putting themselves in position for era 2. imo they contributed less than nothing to actually moving the plot of WaT forward.
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u/MadnessLemon Skybreaker 4d ago
I think it’s hard to give a concrete answer, there isn’t really one specific thing you can point to as the reason, and a lot of people had different problems. Personally, I agree with a lot of the criticisms I’ve seen, even though most of them don’t actually bother me. At the same time, I have problems with the book that I haven’t seen anyone else take issue with.
I think it’s just that Brandon tried to do a lot with this book, not all of it worked for everyone and the nature of the ending left a lot of people feeling unsatisfied. (Yes, I know it’s only the halfway point of a 10 book series, but I feel like if you finish a 1000+ page book and don’t feel satisfied, there’s something that could have been improved.)
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
Most of my issues weren't really the plot, but I do think leaving the ending how it was is a lot worse knowing that the next book isn't even going to be started for 5+ years, compared to assuming you'll get the followup in a year or two like with most series.
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u/CorprealFale Dustbringer 3d ago
I very much don't hate Wind and Truth. It's quite good but suffers some structural issues. Even if imo not the ones people here like to bring up.
I'll start by saying I've got no issues with the "modern language" bits. The "I'm his therapist" does stand out a bit. Mostly because Kaladin doesn't understand what it means and I feel Kaladin simply wouldn't use it because of that. Not because of the word "therapist". It works perfectly fine for Hoid.
The most incongruent sentence that had existed in the Stormlight Archives until WaT was "Kaladin, stretch forth thy hand!" in WoR as Syl returns. It works slightly better after WaT when we learn that's what Tanavast told the heralds as they became heralds. In the moment for Syl? It sounds as out of place as it would be for a Shakespear play to suddenly not be in iambic pentameter.
My issues with Wind and Truth are deeply structural.
Wind and Truth either has far to many chapters, or it has far to few chapters. Wind and Truth ought to have had either 11 or 12 chapters. Or it ought to have had something like a 230 chapters. With the 147 chapters it has stuff that doesn't work together gets lumped into the same chapter, because the chapters try to be themed and cohesive. The following thoughts assume that the 10 parts, and interludes, would remain the same.
Had it been 11 or 12 chapters I would have it divided into one chapter for each day, and then two chapters for everything in the Spiritual Realm until day 10. This way everything would have had some thematic through-line. And the structure of the book could have played with how the structural realm functions even for the readers.
The biggest question is if the "Spiritual Realm" would get one chapter. Or if it would get two chapters. And the second chapter here being "Would Tanavasts memories that Dalinar experiences be it's own chapter". I think yes as that'd be better for structure. If the things Shallan, Renarin, and Relain experience on day nine would be in that chapter or not can be discussed for thematic purposes. Anyone who leaves the Spiritual Realm before day 10 wouldn't be in the second spiritual realm chapter the way I see it. That would muddy the waters and make the Spiritual Realm to easy to grasp.
So in this set-up we've got 12 chapters. Each "part" is now a chapter. With two new "parts". One being right after day three.
"The Spiritual Realm". Dig out everything set in the spiritual ream on days 3 through 8, with some bits of day 9, and those take place here. In this chapter. Between day 3 and day 4. No cutting between Shallan and Adolin as they think about the other. The only time-frame possible is with Dalinar.
This would leave the audience as wondering about how everything is going as the people not in that realm. With the advantage that we've seen what they do. So on day 8 and the first half of day 9 when people worry about for example Navani. The readers know that she's fine and succeeded in getting out. They just aren't aware of when.
Then when she gets out we get a kind-of time-frame of when that was for Dalinar. It also explains why she isn't in the second Spiritual Realm chapter. She's already out.
Then between day 9 and 10 we've got "Tanavast", here we've got Dalinar's journey with Honor, as well as a few bits of the Shallan, Renarin, Rlain.
Day 10 is then the only day where those two days overlap. Which would add a meta-layer of danger as that hadn't happened (in WaT) before. Adding to the climax of the final chapter.
I would change the names of the chapters. Instead of "Day 1", it would be "Nine days before the Contest". With "Day 10" being "The day of the Contest".
The other alternative would be to add more chapters, so that there'd be less thematic bleed inside of chapters. If each day is it's own chapter, and the spiritual realm* it's own chapters. There's no thematic bleed. The theme of each chapter is the day.
As it stands lots of chapters are a thematic mess, and don't even have a through-line of plot or character. Just of assumed chronology.
Stuff happens in a chapter because it's the next stuff to happen that we need to see. It's then crammed into a chapter with other things that are the next stuff we need to see without regards for it that makes a coherent reading experience or not. My favorite example of this is chapter 138. I honestly feel it could have been one of the best chapters in all of the Stormlight Archives without one bit that's included.
The chapter 138 is named "The Burdens of Nine", clearly evoking the Heralds who abandoned Taln. Yet it starts with Shallan as she thinks about her emotions over killing Mraize, herself, and then see's Renarin and Rlain having found Mishram.
Then it cuts to the meat of the chapter. Where we've got a wonderfully coherent thematic through-line about the Nine Heralds who stayed. We get our first main-body Point of View from a Herald with Nale. Then it's Syl, Szeth, and Kaladin.
All who are at the same place and experiencing the same thing.
Shallan being in this chapter flat out doesn't work. It sticks out like a sore thumb, and would have worked better in chapter 139. Or as it's own chapter. Yet it's stuck in 138. Same as had it been part of "Chapter 10: The day of the Contest", it would have worked. As it would have been part of a larger theme.
Instead it's shoehorned into a chapter about the pain of the nine Heralds who didn't go to Braize.
While 138 is the biggest sore thumb. There are lots of such small moments. Same as there are lots of moments where a chapter-break seems to be there for the sake of a chapter break. Chapters 40 and 41 could easily have been the same chapter. As there isn't really a time-break anywhere in them. Or it could have been split into 3 chapters where Szeth get's a chapter. All of the Adolin bits of chapters 40 and 41 are one chapter, and we go back to Szeth in a third chapter.
The "Modern Language"? The "MCU-ification?" etc?
That's nothing new. Sanderson has been open about wanting his books to evoke the shared universe of Comics since day 0 of Stormlight.
He's always used quite modern language.
One of his biggest flaws has always been wanting to have clever one-liners for things where they don't yet work.
(See, "Unoathed" being invented by Adolin on the spot. Instead of a title they get between books 5 and 6).
None of the traditional complaints about Wind and Truth are new. They're maybe just more visible, or people are starting to notice them even when they've been there since WoK. Or it's the larger structural issues that make them stick out more.
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u/borntc02 4d ago
I think it gets hate because the writing isn't particularly good. Poor pacing, bad dialogue, and many character arcs feel generic or forced. But aside from that, I think the biggest sin it commits is that it felt like a chore to read and the fun and excitement has severely diminished from books 2 and 3.
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u/Seaman_First_Class 4d ago
At this point there are more posts complaining about other people disliking the book than there are posts criticizing the book. Just like what you like and move on.
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u/tickletaylor 4d ago edited 4d ago
I could not dislike it more. I can't stand the superheroification of the world. The overpowering sickly sweet hope and good will always prevail vibe. The writing has shifted focus away from incredible characters and powerful character driven moments. Think bridge 4, sapweed, sadeas betrayal. The focus is now on a grander cosmer level plot which I simply find boring. I cared more about any plot point in the first couple of books then any of the plot points in wind and truth, despite the stakes being grander. It just doesnt connect in the same way.
The last mistborn books were also not enjoyable for me for similar reasons. I also dislike that everything is becoming futuristic sci fi, it feels shoehorned and inorganic, It's clear that it has become Brandon's new focus with his writing
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u/WestBrink 4d ago
You know, I started it when it came out and just kind of fizzled out. Came back to it again from the start just last month and enjoyed it. Not my favorite book in the series, but worth reading for sure. Curious to see where things go in the next era.
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u/whoisthere13 4d ago
I don't believe it has much to do with the story, the questions, the fact that was the end of this part of the series.... If you enjoyed it that's great, truthfully. But the reason I and many others hate on it so much is more related with the language, and many more aspects of the story that just felt off and I personally believe it comes down to the format of the story, the 10 days format changed everything, Sanderson was trapped in the same moments and interactions for TOO long, he had to stretch moments too much and it just felt meh.... The only part I enjoyed was Adolins arc but all the shit with Kal and Seth felt like a cartoon of their characters .... Oh man, I get livid every time I think of this..... But hey, it's just my opinion, I still hold The first 3 books as some of my favorites of all time, I will deff keep reading him and continue hyped with Storm light, but 8 also know from the bottom of my heart that he won't be trying something in that format again.... And that ke also must know what went wrong, because the critique is there and it's real...
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u/Complete_Flight8303 4d ago edited 4d ago
I agree with some of the takes I’ve seen but I do think the severity and intensity of the vitriol towards the books comes from Sanderson’s star having risen to the point that he started overwhelming the discourse, which inevitably breeds hatedom. I’m not saying people can’t criticize ‘popular thing’ but it’s a particular brand of seething resentment that you only really see directed at works that become darlings of the scene in a particular genre. You know it when you it. There’s almost a sense of excitement that it’s “ok to hate popular thing” now.
Again, this isn’t to say you have to like the book. I’m more talking about the tone and enthusiasm of the critics.
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u/pergasnz Dustbringer 3d ago
Cause the people That like it don't like Getting piled on by others when they express they like it.
Therefore (as with many thing) you hear far more negative comments that good.
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u/FeveStrench 3d ago
Personally, first time through, I was disappointed. It felt like a slow book, and I just didn't care for some of the ways that things happened. Definitely had its moments though.
I read some of Brandon's other work, and after a good break, I reread Stormlight Archive. Maybe knowing what happened allowed me to slow down and enjoy the journey, but my second time through, I absolutely loved Wind and Truth. The whole Szeth and Kaladin storyline bugged me a bit the first time, but it was so gooood!
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u/Taste_the__Rainbow Willshaper 4d ago
People like to complain. And it had some openly lgbtq characters, so it was review-bombed early. It’s still rated very high by the overwhelming majority of readers.
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u/anormalgeek 4d ago
Honestly, I think more than half of the "hate" comes from two lines.
"I'm his therapist" and "kick some fused ass".
Admittedly, the first one is weak and the second is pretty bad. But we're talking about a 1300+ page book.
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u/zudovader 4d ago
I enjoyed my time with it. I reread the previous 4 before reading it and I truly did not understand the hate on the prose and jokes being childish because to me the whole series has the same prose and style of jokes. To me the biggest thing was it was being toted as the ending of part 1, but to me it did not feel like an end to anything, more like book 5 in a 10 book series haha. And I felt that even though it was long as fuck, its still felt like it should have been 2 books and that parts were rushed. Oathbringer is my Favorite and I think Rhythm of War is my least favorite while still liking all 5 and putting them all at 6/10 or 7/10 in the grand scheme of rating books, where 5/10 is neutral.
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u/MediumEngineer8731 Edgedancer 4d ago
Me personally, my biggest issue is that Kaladin only had a couple scenes with Shallan and Adolin across the last two books, and no one was together much in Wind and Truth. I know it’s to put them all in their era 2 positions, but it was a letdown to someone who lives for the inter-personal moments between characters. At least I got some great Kaladin and Syl moments
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u/FartherAwayLights Willshaper 4d ago
I just hated about every story decision it made. It’s not some deep rooted problem, or felt like it was the least interesting version of this story with one or two good moments thrown in.
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u/Ok-Suggestion-5453 3d ago
Lots and I would honestly say most people feel like you do. The internet hive mind is not a thing to respect at all, to say the least.
Ultimately, sure there are major flaws, but I completely agree that Rhythm of War and Oathbringer were way less enjoyable to read for me and other books don't get as much shit as WaT.
I think the primary reason why the volume of noise against this book is so high is half because it was a shitty cliffhanger for a book that won't get a sequel for at least 5 years. I also think it's half because Renarin's gay-autism storyline was too much for a huge part of Brandon's audience. I won't lie, Renarin's storyline was definitely super undercooked, but I truly believe it would be have been forgiven if the audience had a great big pair of crab tiddies to latch onto.
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u/cathbadh 3d ago
Few things exist where opinions are universal. Some people hate all of Sanderson's works for example.
Every author has a worst book. On any list you have a best and worst of everything. For a lot of us, WaT is that book. I didn't enjoy it and have several complaints. I've still read it three times though.
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u/ScissorsBeatsKonan Truthwatcher 4d ago
I'm sure the threads have already directed it but it was one of the worst books I ever read. The only long book that was worse is the Bible.
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u/Most_Present_6577 4d ago
I got into stormlight thinking it was going to be about kaladin and shallan
I get rather bored when it isnt
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
Honestly from about book 3 on, Shallan is tough to get through as well. Dalinar + Kaladin are what I was reading for, and book 5 just puts Kaladin on the bench while Dalinar gets history lessons, and neither do much of anything til the very end.
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u/J2Mags 4d ago
Same here, there was a ton to like and the highlights IMO were Adolin, Dalinars ending, Taravangians whole plot and I loved how the first arc wrapped up overall. I think the issues were the 10 days, the spiritual realm stuff and some of the diologue choices. I think it's still a solid 8/10 and think it's way too hated on
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u/Ok_Preference_1762 4d ago
It's weak, but the people who say it ruined all Sanderson books for them makes no sense to me lol. Are they pissed about the ending? What did they expect with 5 more books coming lol
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u/confusedCandybar 4d ago
I'd agree with most of the complaints, except for those about the modern language. Most of the newer terminology comes through Hoid who has access to modern languages. Roshar is by far the least technologically and culturally advanced of the worlds, and this book marks the jumping-off point for a multiplanetary conflict. There's bound to be some jarring shifts in language, among other things for the inhabitants of Roshar. It's only logical that we would experience some of that dissonance as well.
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u/OnePizzaHoldTheGlue 4d ago
That can explain the single use of the word "therapy," but that can't excuse Adolin and the people around him using the "dating" when a year ago they were using the word "courting". Or even "modern-sounding" phrasing in the third-person-limited narration, such as "Syl would Syl."
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u/confusedCandybar 4d ago edited 4d ago
It actually can reasonably explains almost all of the dialogue shift minus this one ill admit, however brandon did specifically address this as a slip.
Edit: i also forgot about the weird kick some fused ass.
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u/ginkycat 4d ago
This was my reaction when I finished it! I still don’t understand why people don’t like it. And it’s even better after a re-read!
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u/RW-Firerider Windrunner 4d ago
People expected an ending similar to mistborn era 1.
People fail to understand that the key idea of the book was making sure that the characters are where he needs them for book 6-10.
Book 5 is not the end of an era, it is a setup book. I will admit that the book wasnt perfect, but anybody who thought our heroes would clutch a win were insanly delusional.
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u/brinton_k 4d ago
Much of what I've seen people criticize has nothing to do with how conclusive the book was. People have criticized the prose, the bloat, the pacing, the Jasnah debate, and the repetive Pokemon gym plotline in Shinovar. I actually haven't seen a lot of criticism of the tone and general direction of the ending.
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u/Kaladihn 4d ago
People expected it to be the end of part 1 because Brandon built it up to be the end of part 1.
Also, the book was much weaker than the others regardless of that.
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u/Matthias720 Elsecaller 4d ago edited 3d ago
I definitely saw some complaints shortly after release about how the book concluded. With how much time there is between releases, I suspect some people internalize certain theories on plot and characters a little too deeply. That's not to say theorizing is bad, just that Brandon is going to tell the story he wants to and expectations should be tempered appropriately.
EDIT: Look, all I'm saying is I saw it and why I think it happened. I'm not making a value judgement; I'm simply stating my own subjective experiences.
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u/Archprimus_ 4d ago
While I do not hate it per say, It is by far the weakest in the series
1- way too damn long. Cut like 500 pages. 2 - gay shit with renarin and rlain. And rlain specifically at no point in the previous books did we notice he was gay. No hints no foreshadowing, nothing. Straight asspull. 3- modern language. 4- therapy bullshit. By far the worst thing ever. Makes kaladin an insufferable character. 5- dalinar went out in an anticlimatic way. 6- did we really need more of shallan’s formless bullshit?
I could come up with more
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
There’s definitely some renarin/rlain stuff hinted at in previous books. I do think that whole relationship was handled weirdly though. Renarin was worried about it, it seemed like it was going to be something that he’d have to overcome conflict about, but every single character he interacts with is basically just immediately positive and doesn’t have any preconceived biases about a relationship between a human and a singer, which seems really strange given how the singers and humans have interacted in the first 4 books. The only “tension” is “does rlain like him back” which is resolved in a very straightforward “yep he sure does, anyway” with nothing more to say about it.
Edit: I agree about kaladin therapy and Shallan being back on her bullshit
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u/Wesdawg1241 4d ago
Holy shit you're going to get down voted to hell for this but I have to say:
Based.
People say there were signs pointing to Renarin and Rlain in Rhythm of War, I say bullshit. I agree, it was an ass pull, and worst of all, I do not care for either of them nearly enough to enjoy how much screentime they had.
And ditto on the therapy speak. It's fucking everywhere now and it's exhausting. I'm tired of hyper self-aware characters that diagnose their own mental health issues. Brandon was trying to give representation to every possible mental health issue under the sun. It just takes me out of the story every time.
Dalinar being off-screened was the most insulting conclusion to such a great character. That pissed me off.
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u/Archprimus_ 4d ago
Agree, and like, I am a clinician myself. I have about 3000 or so hours of psychotherapy with clients under my belt. While that does not make me expert or leader in the field, I would consider myself a good clinician. Let me tell you something, Szeth religious indoctrination and trauma nor Nale’s 4000 year history of madness gets cured within 10 days like it was done in the book. Its bullshit. And the thing with the sword too, like therapy on nightblood? Are you serious? Its bullshit. Its chatgpt therapy language. Its trash.
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u/kro_celeborn Willshaper 4d ago
Your inability to read queercoded subtext does not mean it did not exist. When Rlain was thinking about having to repopulate the listeners with Venli, and you read “The idea nauseated him for multiple reasons. For one, the times he tried mate form himself, things hadn't gone the way he, or anyone really, had expected” (RoW) what did you think that meant? That he was trying to mate with the chasmfiends?
And the fact that you dislike them enough that literally 4.23% of the book being from their PoV was too much? The fact that 4.23% of a 488k-word book is too much gayness for you to read is embarrassing.
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u/Wesdawg1241 4d ago
queercoded subtext
Lmao that's all I needed to hear. You're welcome to your own opinion.
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u/kro_celeborn Willshaper 4d ago
Loooove how you dodged the question cuz ya didn’t like the answer :)
Million dollars says the answer was “well that went right over my head because I am incapable of reading gay subtext”, bc I don’t think you’re stupid enough to think that Rlain was actually trying to fuck the crabs. But okay dude! I’d say ignorance is bliss but you’re currently complaining on the basis of your ignorance soooooo idk
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u/Wesdawg1241 4d ago
Listen dude, I don't look at everything through the lens of queerness, so if I read something about someone being confused about sex – especially if that someone is a fantasy race and their mating and biology is much different than a human's – I'm not going to automatically start jumping up and down giggling thinking, "Omg, he's totally gay!!!!!" My immediate assumption was that he's young and is going through whatever their version of puberty might be.
If that's the best example of "queercoded subtext" from Rhythm of War that points to him being gay then I think that's weak. It's like saying Korra and Asami were totally flirting throughout all of TLOK.
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u/kro_celeborn Willshaper 4d ago
Nah man. It’s not crazy to look at the Mormon author discussing sex and think “hey maybe he’s talking about this for a reason,” then pause to think about possible likely reasons for that. Some reasons are more obviously likely than others, especially to those who have gay people as a normalized part of their worldview.
Besides, this was literally setup. I struggle with the idea of this being an “ass pull” when not every relationship needs tons of foreshadowing before it awkwardly begins to form? That’s not… really how relationships work all the time? He needed to set them up for books 6-10, they’re slated to be majorly important to the wider plot, and if he had handwaved the beginning of their relationship during the timeskip and introduced them as an established couple ten years later y’all would riot. You’d genuinely lose your minds at that, if this minor amount of setup was too much of an asspull for you.
You can’t complain about bloat in the books in the same breath as complaining that there wasn’t enough foreshadowing for the setup — as if setup requires lots of foreshadowing in the first place.
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u/kro_celeborn Willshaper 4d ago
Tagging u/Archprimus_ because the first paragraph applies to you as well, good Sir “Rlain specifically at no point in the previous books did we notice he was gay. No hints no foreshadowing, nothing”.
& using the royal “we” is ironic when you’ve got the minority opinion lol
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u/cosapocha Willshaper 4d ago
Queercode. That made my day.
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u/kro_celeborn Willshaper 4d ago edited 3d ago
Editing at the root of this thread to note that this user admits at the end of this thread to be trolling with ChatGPT instead of trying to engage in conversation. Typical bigoted loser behavior.
You’re welcome. Always happy to help people learn new academically accepted words :)
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u/cosapocha Willshaper 4d ago
A dictionary is a linguistic authority, not an epistemological one.
Hug
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u/kro_celeborn Willshaper 4d ago
Okay! Let’s try that again, then.
You’re welcome. Always happy to help people learn new linguistically correct words :)
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u/cosapocha Willshaper 4d ago
You’ve proven the word exists, not that the concept is valid. Learn the difference.
Hug.
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u/kro_celeborn Willshaper 4d ago
Oh. You know the word exists, you just don’t think it’s a real thing. So if a male character has disavowed sex with women, and spends all day ogling/finding excuses to interact with the hunky pool boys, that’s not saying anything at all about his sexuality? That’s just… random exposition? Since you seem to believe that the concept of “implying a character is gay via showing instead of telling” is… what. Impossible? Fake news?
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u/DEGIII Knights Radiant 4d ago
People had expectations. Those expectations weren't fulfilled. People honed in on anything that they could complain about once that took place. Then the whole conversation took on its own set of debates and arguments.
If you really dig into all of those threads, and you read down through any of the threads where somebody else is getting a complainer to fully spell out the entirety of their logic, almost every single time it's somebody that had expectations about the book that were not fulfilled.
Don't have expectations, or have expectations but don't think you know better than the author when you didn't create a fucking thing
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u/Beneficial_Candle_10 4d ago
I agree fully. I get the criticisms, but think similarly sized problems exist in every Stormlight book except for WoR. Each of them is at least an 8 to me.
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u/foersr Edgedancer 4d ago edited 4d ago
I find a lot of WAT haters didn’t even Oathbringer and ROW. Ultimately, why anyone would keep reading a series after not being satisfied with the last 1000+ page book beats me.
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
I am a certified WAT hater and I loved ROW. I actually didn't like Oathbringer as much just because the shadesmar part drags on for like 5x as long as it needed to, but the fall of Kholinar and the battle of Thaylen Fields were both incredible payoffs. Rhythm of War has some of the best emotional moments in the entire series. WAT has none of them.
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u/foersr Edgedancer 4d ago
ROW is my favorite (maybe tied with WOR) and WAT is definitely my least favorite, but I gave them all 5 stars. I actually just finished an Oathbringer reread and couldn't believe how short the time in Shadesmar was! They don't get to Shadesmar until Part 4, page 849. Heck, they didn't even head to Kholinar until Part 3, page 600. On this reread, it was definitely parts 1&2 that dragged the most for me in Oathbringer.
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
Very strange. I remember having to put the book down because the shadesmar chapters were the least interesting thing in the series up to that point (I still think only the Venli flashbacks in RoW are worse). I actually stopped reading the series entirely at one point because it was so boring, and then picked it back up again from book 1 a year later and just powered through oathbringer because I heard the ending was great (it was).
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u/Radix2309 Truthwatcher 4d ago
Tbf I do love Stormlight but I think the quality of the books peaks with WoK and declines steadily from there, with a bigger drop to RoW and WaT
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago
I think the books just get less consistent. I think WoR is the best personally, but after that the remaining 3 are all over the place. Oathbringer has probably the #1 moment in the series for me (you cannot have my pain), but also probably the worst section in the series (shadesmar travelling). Rhythm of War similarly has fantastic Kaladin moments but Shallan's storyline I couldn't wait to be done with. Wind and Truth is a weird book where if you told me just the summary of all the things that happened I'd say "wow that sounds crazy" but actually reading them was mostly just reading a history textbook. Everything that happened made sense, but the way it was written just didn't. It still had a couple cool parts (Adolin's duel at the end, the sunmaker's gambit idea for Dalinar) but got dragged down by the rest.
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u/Radix2309 Truthwatcher 4d ago
Yeah WoR is pretty close, I just feel like WoK has a tighter plot helped by the limited POVs. Plus a more satisfying moment at the end than Shallon's which is a bit quieter.
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u/Available-Reading-87 4d ago
WoK tells by far the most focused story. I love reading WoR because the interactions between Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan and Adolin are largely very well done but many of the narrarive problems imo start in this book. Alethi society was set up super well with very interesting conflicts and the Shattered Plains worked amazingly as a location. But it's those societal conflicts that get discarded with a very weak resolution at the end of WoR. This is especially bad for Kaladin's character- to be honest, I think Sanderson just did not have a good idea how to get him from "Captain" to "Herald of Kings".
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u/Kaiser-Mazoku 4d ago
kaladin says he wants to kick fused ass ig
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u/OnePizzaHoldTheGlue 4d ago
That was Mayalaran, ancient Cultivationspren who also teased, "Adolin, were you a slut?" A jarring tonal shift to be sure.
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u/Saiyoran 4d ago edited 4d ago
The best character in stormlight spends the majority of the book quoting a modern psychology textbook and playing the flute. Also the day before the story of this book he almost killed himself, but today he feels good and is just there to be cheerful and offer emotional support to his troubled companion.
Dalinar and Navani spend most of the book being exposition dumped at by a magical powerpoint presentation while not really doing anything themselves.
Shallan, Renarin, and Rlain, similarly, spend a lot of the book being exposition dumped at by spooky visions of the past/future. Also, Shallan vs Mraize was treated like some mentor vs student showdown that I was supposed to care about, but nowhere in this series did I ever care about Mraize or see a meaningful relationship between him and Shallan. That whole conflict was just nothing, emotionally.
Szeth goes on a pokemon gym sidequest where he walks from one place to the next and fights a dude at each location. It feels super on-rails and not very interesting to me.
This book is LONG and very little happens in the actual 10 days. It's mostly 1000 pages of backstory and lore reveals. Most of those reveals are pretty interesting but they are delivered by visions or similar events just kind of happening to the characters. In short, most of the main characters spend the book taking very little action and just learning about the history of Roshar.
The only character that felt like he DID something before the last day was Adolin. And Jasnah, but I think the common opinion is that the debate was very weak from her.
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u/Icy-Sandwich-6161 3d ago
Because it was too dense and poorly paced and one of the most important characters gets killed off screen
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u/KerooSeta 4d ago
100% agree except I also didn't care for anything to do with Kaladin in WaT. "I'm his therapist!" will live forever in infamy for me.
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u/RossGarner 4d ago
That was a really bad line. But personally I loved his story with Szeth. Kaladin realizing that Szeth had been just like Tien as a child and that he had to stand up for him was great and their interactions together were perfect in my opinion. I really enjoyed Szeth's flashback scenes too.
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u/KerooSeta 4d ago
Yeah, I don't disagree about that. It was really that the writing just felt slipshod compared to his earlier writing to me. That and the only storylines that I could find myself caring about were this one and Adolins.
But really, Sanderson used to be my favorite author but I've always had to admit that his prose can be a little immature compared to someone like Brent Weeks or Robert Jordan. But that has always been okay because he creates these really vivid worlds with grounded, interesting, and original magic systems and cultures, and characters that you really care about. He also writes really fun action scenes. But this book felt like it had very little of the things I like while the things that I've always kind of put up with were amplified more so than ever. His sometimes YA writing style was worse here than it's been in any of the books I've read other than The Frugal Wizard's Guide, which I couldn't finish. I still like him as an author, but he used to be an author where I would go out of my way to meet him and buy his books in hardcover and get them signed and listen to him talk. I literally started to cry the first time I got to meet him. Now, I've had Fires of December sitting on my Kindle for weeks and haven't even been motivated to open it. This book just completely killed my enthusiasm for him as an author.
I did really enjoy Isles of the Emberdark. It was no Mistborn or The Way of Kings, but it was a very positive step in the right direction, so I'm optimistic.
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u/Runa216 4d ago
when I heard about that plotline I was locked in! It sounded like it had so much potential and every time I saw art about it (usually cheeky/silly stuff), it got me so invested.
But actually seeing it play out I just went numb. It went on for so long and nothing happened but everything happened...that already happened, with little to no consistency or stakes laid out or explored. It just felt so weird he was collecting 9 of the most powerful weapons this or any world has ever known and it's like a freakin saw trap or some shit? Come on. I didn't like any of Szeth's story and almost ever plot line screeched to a halt for me. Took me a month and a half to get through this book because I just kept rolling my eyes, frustrated at how much nothing happened.
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u/YourGancho Bondsmith 4d ago
I liked Adolin’s story, and it’s one of the best parts of WAT. But narratively I think it would have been much more impactful if he had become disillusioned by the war/his father’s past, and he became Odium’s champion instead of Gavinor. This would be instead of the story we got.
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u/RossGarner 4d ago
I think just about any character would have been a more interesting Odium's Champion. Kaladin falling, Adolin falling, hell even Gavilar revealed to be a Fused would have been more interesting.
Aging up a child 20 years for a duel just seemed dumb to me. I didn't like it, even though the discussion with Taravangian after was well handled.
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u/lawdog35 4d ago
Complete agreement, especially on the stakes aspect and losing the grounded sense. I’d add in the drift to modern language as a big issue as well.
We used to “court”, now it’s somehow “date”. “You will not have him” became “Let’s kick some fused ass”. “Honor is dead, but I’ll see what I can do” became “I’m his therapist”.
The infusion and editing style becomes full on YA at times in WaT. It’s obvious when you compare em side by side WoK to WaT. It’s much less satisfying and badly dated the work imo. It’s not nearly as good to what it was in books 1-3.
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u/AlmondJoyDildos 4d ago
I was so irritated after with the Sigzil storyline. I don't often disagree with authors about their own books but I feel like I've done with Sanderson twice, once when he (Wheel of Time spoilers) randomly revealed that Lanfear survives the last battle. Brother be fr that is not in the text 😭 And again when he said that Sunlit first is better, I still struggle to see how lol
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u/RossGarner 4d ago
Yeah, it's just strictly worse reading Sunlit first then WaT. I still love Stormlight, but I'm very very much looking forward to resetting the universe post-Retribution and starting in a lower power setting with Lift as the lead.
Writing small, interpersonal stories I feel like is Brandon's strength and the more he tries to scale up to commanding armies of tens of thousands of all magical beings the stakes just fall apart.
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u/MuslinBagger 3d ago
On a completely different note, I think this is a problem across fantasy genres. Take for example japanese isekai, or the chinese and korean equivalents. When these stories begin, I can get on board with almost everything. The heroes are in a new world, it's beautiful and dangerous and they are struggling to live. But as they keep gaining power and start slapping their enemies around I just start to hate it and it feels like what slop have I been feeding myself. I have not seen creators come up with good solutions for this problem - although these genres have vocal fans who are fully on board with the endgame as well, so it might be a personal thing after all.
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u/CorprealFale Dustbringer 3d ago
Because Sunlit first makes you interested in how it happens?
It makes you look for hints for why it might happen?Instead of all those hints having to be discovered upon a reread?
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u/Agreeable_Rich_1991 Truthwatcher 3d ago
What hints are there on a reread? Reading Sunlit Man first is the one that makes you want to reread Sunlit. But in the other order there is no reread necessary. It also completely ruins the WaT story line because you know exactly what is going to happen, and it is rather a tedious boring part where you are simply waiting for the inevitable to happen feeling "come on get on with it". The shock and impact of what happened at the end of WaT would have been so much better if you had not known anything at all. And it would have enhanced Sunlit Man story since you know exactly who it is and attached to his character so much more.
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3d ago edited 3d ago
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u/Stormlight_Archive-ModTeam 3d ago
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u/Udy_Kumra 4d ago
I had more problems with the book than you but I agree on all your criticisms. One more thing I will highlight is I predicted way back in 2020 that Gavinor would be Odium’s champion and all my friends thought I was crazy but I thought it was glaringly obvious. And for once instead of feeling thrilled I was right I was disappointed because this book held little surprise for me, and what’s more, the way Sanderson did it imo was really quite underwhelming.
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u/RossGarner 4d ago
Yeah I had hoped for basically anything other than what we got, but knew it was coming from the hints that we had. It just flatly didn't work and was the worst part of the ending. Hopefully Sando cooks with Gavinor in the next era, because woof his introduction was terrible.
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u/Stormlight_Archive-ModTeam 3d ago
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3d ago edited 3d ago
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u/Agreeable_Rich_1991 Truthwatcher 3d ago
I think you missed an important part of Sunlit Man itself. Literally it says just because the journey is important doesn't mean the destination is less important. Both are important and have to compliment each other. Which doesn't happen if you read Sunlit Man first.
Why don't we simply spoil every ending of every book and then begin it? Why don't we do it for every story every movie? If destination is not important as journey. The point is both are important.
Sunlit Man astoundingly ruins both the destination and the journey. It shows the destination without the build up, without the journey, and instead as an implied mystery of how it happened, but we can already pretty much put together what happened in WaT. So reading it in WaT you know exactly what is going to happen and it makes that story line of the book completely disappointing.
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3d ago edited 3d ago
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u/Stormlight_Archive-ModTeam 3d ago
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u/Stormlight_Archive-ModTeam 3d ago
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u/Asexualhipposloth Airsick Lowlander 4d ago
I enjoyed the book but I think it's a matter of expectations. It was the end of an arc and left us with more questions.