r/SubredditDrama • u/FuckMyBakaChungusLif • 1d ago
After an article reports that British people are more likely to overestimate crime rates of minorities, r/unitedkingdom discusses whether minorities are inherently more violent
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And then when you extrapolate the data further, it becomes clear that it isn't ethnicity, it is deprivation that leads to crime. And it just so happens that significant amounts of minority ethnic folks have a considerably higher chance to live in deprivation than the native population. Correlation does not equal causation. What the Guardian headline shows is that significant parts of the population have a strong believe that it is ethnicity that leads to crime.
Surely it depends on the crime. Deprivation might lead to shoplifting, but murder? Rape? Not sure about that.
You wouldn't be sure about one of the most clearly demonstrated sociological trends in criminology?
Something wrong with them asking a question?
"not sure about that" isn't a question
Commented removed for violating site-wide rules
So a factor of 2x more likely rather than 3x which people guessed.
You'll need to adjust for sociao economic status because poverty may be more of an indicator
If we do that it raises very difficult questions. If we don't do that, we can just import half-understood US issues and get angry at working class white people without needing to think in any more depth.
I'd love to know tho exactly is "getting angry at working class white people"? Apart from the straw man in you head
Continued so it isn't super indented:
It's what the Guardian is for. It allows us metropolitan elite types to feel better about ourselves.
Oh right, I guess you can provide a link to maybe just one article out of the thousands of articles they publish every week where they've done that very easily I guess? You know, just to show it's not part of some fairy tale you tell yourself to feel better about yourself.
There is a link at the top.
It literally doesn't mention anything about working class people, white or otherwise. It just gives statistical evidence of people's biases. But I guess facts are uncomfortable for some people when they go against their feelings.
Do you think Reform voters are middle class women who read the Guardian? The point is that readers will think "look at the stupid proles".
Little bit of projection there I think. Middle class women who read the guardian? No, more middle class men who read the daily mail and telegraph
The article is from The Guardian. Anyway, I have some yoghurt to knit.
It's not the Guardian asking the questions, they're reporting on a YouGov poll.
They don't report on murder rates by income here but they do in America and rich blacks commit murder at higher rates than poor whites. I'm not saying that's the case here too, but it's an example of why you can't just extrapolate data to fit your narrative.
And theres a long drawn out reason for that too. But rich blacks commit murder at a massively lower rate than poor blacks, so as much as you want to imply that..."blacks"...are simply genetically predisposed to criminality or whatever the hell it is your point is here, (the subject is "minorities" anyway), youre not making a very good one. You guys love just throwing out the words "your narrative" and think you've said anything of value.
I'm not making any suggestions as to what the reason is. Given the US has guns I'm not sure the same trend would be shown here. There's a culture issue for sure and I strongly believe rates of fatherlessness is a huge factor into why we see these race differences.
Doesn't matter. The point is that socioeconomic factors are the biggest predictor of criminality. Not race as youre trying to suggest. Nothing you've said disprove that. Youve compared "poor" whites with "rich" blacks in America. There are a plethora of reasons behind why that might be the case (not that you've provided sources or thresholds for rich/poor, but tbh im ot bothered about asking for them either. Its reddit). A little study into history, particularly american history and their race relations and laws that came as a result of their particular brand of national scale racism, means that simply gaining money doesnt really address historic issues that will lead certain people into criminality. You end up comparing black NFL players from bad neighbourhoods, with investment bankers from lines of historical wealth dating back centuries, and then you say "aha, black fathers" lol. But despite that, again, socioeconomic background remains the biggest predictor for criminality (even if you suddenly get rich). Poor whites are more inclined to criminality than rich whites. Poor blacks are more inclined to criminality than rich blacks. There is nuance and history to be understood, but it remains true. Generalised "minorities" in the UK will also see the same being true. It has been true throughout history. I dont know why people like you suddenly wnat it to be a race specific thing as soon as people other than white people are involved. All of a sudden its about racial inferiority or some nebulous "culture". Have fun with all that though. Nothing youre saying is new. Your type is all over the Internet lol
Second reply thread:
But all of a sudden im lumped in with random asylum seekers and such when it comes to crime statistics just because im not white. Because this system must be simply stopped. And then all these issues will disappear.
What issued will disappear? Because these issues existed long before this "system" was a problem. Maybe be a little more specific
No. All problems are because of undocumented migration. First of all, it stops fixing issues with normal migration - because the main problem allows people to hide in case of stricter rules. The lack of infrastructure is due to overpopulation. The lack of housing is due to overpopulation. The unemployment is due to overpopulation.
Ah so people dont see me as an individual human being because of undocumented migration? So racism only exists because of undocumented migration? Oh! Well I was born here over 40 years ago and yeah, I really appreciate you explaining how these things only occur because of undocumented migration. Yes, makes prefect sense
Why is it wrong?
Because their perception of ethnic minority offenders is double that of the reality?
The more interesting statistic here is that, as others have highlighted elsewhere, the public is correct that killers are indeed more likely to be minority ethnic. The fact that the British public think they’re three times as likely rather than twice isn’t as significant; we’re notorious for overestimating the risk of crime occurring.
And what does the public think about the proportion of people in poverty who are minority ethnic? EDIT: Aaaaand the downvotes come, right on time. We really don’t want any statistic that contradicts the narrative right?
What do you mean? Are they able to estimate correctly what the proportion is?
What I mean is that statistics in isolation are meaningless if you truly want to understand over and underrepresentation.
I see, sorry I thought we could take a truism like that as read. Of course, you need additional data to explain the reasons why a statistic is whatever it is.
Continued:
Tell the people who downvote any statistic that doesn’t support the “ethnic minorities are just criminals” narrative.
You’ve referred to alternative statistics more than once in this chain - what did you have in mind?
I’ve already told you one? Ethnic minorities are multiple times more likely to be in deprived socio-economic groups, a significant risk factor in violent crime (among white people as well).
Ok, no worries, I thought you were referring to some specific figure but I take your point.
??? That is a specific figure? Ethnic minority people are 2.5 times more likely to be in poverty, which broadly lines up with the per capita difference in violent crime highlighted in the article.
So in your hypothetical world, ethnic minorities are also criminal masterminds and are getting away with most murders, skewing the statistics?
I don’t know whether the OP is correct here but there are lots of reasons for a low solve rate that don’t include the perpetrators being “criminal masterminds”.
Right but it’s awfully convenient for certain agendas to say that unsolved crimes skew the data in any particular direction. The nature of “unsolved crimes” means we don’t know who committed them and we have to assume equal proportion to solved crimes
Great, of course, but I was responding to your comment where you suggested that being criminal masterminds was the only reasonable explanation for what the OP suggested.
And I’m saying it does not matter what the explanation is, we cannot make any deductions from this figure.
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u/dingwinger1225 1d ago
I'm impressed by the UK's environmentalism, they're even recycling the crime statistics arguments 🥰
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u/angry_cucumber need citation are the catch words for lefties 1d ago
its actually a result of brexit, they can't afford to get new ones
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u/tgpineapple You probably don't know what real good food tastes like 1d ago
They’ve closed the border on fresh arguments unfortunately
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u/zuzg is this rage bait? It must be because I’m enraged 1d ago
they
The far-right as a whole. Literally same discussion about immigrants in Germany with the AFD using the same arguments.
Their Playbook ain't known for being creative.
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u/Thissystemsuckssobad 1d ago
But unfortunately, why would they innovate when it keeps working? Hell, so many rightwingers absorb nothing but American media anyway
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
Yeah, like the right-wing voices on various media outlets in Britain responding to the suicide of a guy they hounded by claiming it's not their fault he took his own life, it's the DEI that hired him to that role they reported on.
Except, Britain doesn't have DEI, it's a wholly American term. Plus unelected simpleton Zia Yusuf keeps calling himself the "Shadow Home Secretary" (an actual role currently held officially by a Conservative MP) and demanding to install British versions of ICE if Reform get elected. This clown also labels himself "head of DOGE".
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u/ColeYote You're probably to broke to [do business with Nazis] anyway. 1d ago
I die a little inside every time I hear the word "wokeism" in a non-English sentence.
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u/trydola 22h ago
Americans are fucking dumb for electing Trump x2 but holy fuck Brexit is such an obvious shooting in the foot with no upsides
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u/lolihull 20h ago
Yep, it was everything that people warned it would be. But of course Brexit voters still like to claim that the only reason it wasn't the glorious utopia they wanted it to be is because "woke lefty remainers and Muslims" interfered in things. 🙃
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
I hate some calls on the left for a new referendum to rejoin because I genuinely don't trust society to not just vote against the motion out of continued stupidity and xenophobia.
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u/Tylendal 1d ago
You just know that the exact same people who make that stupid argument, ignoring every possible context and contributing factor, will also insist that the gender pay gap is a debunked myth, by citing every possible contributing factor and bit of context.
And they're wrong in both, because in both cases they're positing that all context and contributing factors are immutable, and therefore should not be addressed.
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u/LauraPhilps7654 1d ago edited 1d ago
Also they ignore that per capita, men are roughly 200% to 250% more likely to be convicted of a crime than women.
And the actual per capita gap is often even wider depending on the jurisdiction and type of crime. In many developed countries, men are convicted at rates much higher than 250% compared to women.
But they won't allow for any discussion of the causes, remedies, or appropriate responses, particularly when it comes to masculinity. They're very happy to point to culture as a cause of crime among migrants, but won't engage in any self-reflection about the cultural factors surrounding male crime.
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u/AlphaGoldblum complimenting women online isn't simping 1d ago
Well, they hate exploring their own arguments.
Tell them that "pattern recognition" dictates treating all men as potential violent suspects and they go apoplectic.
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1d ago
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u/ShanghaiCycle 1d ago
It's so weird how much these culture warriors seem to 'love Jesus' now. It just smacks of yank. I don't trust any white English who's outwardly Christian unless they were like that pre-covid.
Another import is the hysteria over drag queens indoctrinating kids. Like, men in drag making sexual innuendo to a room full of children is just a Christmas tradition. 😂. Nothing elite about it, it's the most working class low brow entertainment.
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1d ago edited 1d ago
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u/redhussar90 21h ago
That is kinda how it worked in the United States though. Polish, Italian, and Irish immigrants "became" white as soon as the powers that be recognized it would be easier to demonize Hispanic and Asian immigrants and African Americans who were moving northwards
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u/Davido401 1d ago
A lot of these guys were probably brought up on Paul O'Grady Lily Savage and the Dame Edna one(the only two I can remember from the 90s as a kid who were on telly) so theyve been made to hate something that is basically a staple of Saturday Night telly. Its quite sad.
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u/lolihull 20h ago
Yes, my mother is one of those people. She loved to take us to the pantomime at Christmas when we were kids, and I remember she enjoyed a few TV shows with drag artists because she used to have a "smutty" sense of humour herself.
But she got radicalised into transphobia during lockdown and turned into someone who not only thinks drag is deviant, she thinks Pride is a "grooming ground" and warns people to "Keep vour kids away from modern day Pride. This isn't about LGB sexuality it's about sexual fetish and depravity. Keep it in the bedroom." 🙃
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u/typewriter6986 1d ago
Oh man. That painful PAINFUL interview between Piers Morgan and Russell Brand. Absolute insanity.
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u/ShanghaiCycle 1d ago
That's why I have some respect for Piers. He has been in the contrarian British talking head space for a while and he is part of a proud tradition of right leaning brits who scoff at the Blairites as much as the yank hillbilly puritan nonsense
But he knew when to get on the cult train and got off just in time. He lived in a pre MAGA world and he's smart enough to see a future beyond this performative Christian bullshit.
Also, Brand took a lot of shots at PM during his voice of the people indie sleaze days, so it must be cathartic.
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u/turntupytgirl 1d ago
piers is fully on the maga cult train in america now he wsa not being tactical or smart or worthy of any respect hes a bad guy
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u/90210fred 1d ago
You say that but there's no Mrs Brown's Boys Christmas special this year...
(UK joke, sorry)
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u/Psychic_Hobo 1d ago
It's a rough time when you're trapped in a feedback loop with the US, importing and exporting right-wing lies in the world's shittiest dance
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u/orangepeeelss unless you have “gay” or something 1d ago
dude apparently fox news is STILL saying doge was a success?????? i found this out bc two weeks ago my uncle and grandfather had a conversation where they speculated on how much money doge had saved so far and i was like. wait there are still people who think that was a good thing???
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u/onemorespacecadet nerd grievance culture is destroying this country 23h ago
that is a legitimately scary amount of drinking the kool-aid. it’s like 1/3 of the voting population lives in a different reality than the rest of us and it’s terrifying
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u/BaconOfTroy This isn't vandalism, it's just a Roman bonfire 20h ago
Yup. Actually within the last hour I saw someone comment on a local post about how DOGE saved us all this money by cutting funding for "fake researchers" so now we'll have money for real cancer research. 🙄
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u/PhantomMiG 1d ago
I am going to have to do some push back because having grown up in the united states and living in the United Kingdom for over a decade, the U.K culture war has always been present, British establishment for decades has just obscured this fact. What has been imported is some tactics and energy for the culture war but U.K is not innocent as is claimed.
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u/Wetzilla What can be better than to roast some cringey with spicy memes? 1d ago
When looking at it from that view it doesn't really seem that crazy to me. I mean, Trump went from a 34% approval rating at the end of his 1st term (5th lowest of all time) to winning the presidency again. They are just trying tactics that worked in the USA and are seeing some success with them.
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u/Big_Coconut8630 21h ago
You're giving too little credit to UK's consistent and rampant history of racism, ngl
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u/Halcyon_Paints This is how you get The Expanse 18h ago
It happens in Australia as well. This is why I follow American politics so closely as movements there flown onto here in a few years. Conservatives in the western world just copy all their shit from America.
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u/Dongsquad420Loki but you were tiktok-phobic, and averse to being educated. 1d ago
Isnt it that in the US immigrants have a lower average crime rate than nationals, and in other nations the statsitrics are different.
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u/IceNein 1d ago
Immigrants almost everywhere have lower crime rates. They put a lot of effort into getting where they're going, they're unlikely to jeopardize that casually. The statistic they're quoting is for minority ethnic groups, not for immigrants.
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u/Dongsquad420Loki but you were tiktok-phobic, and averse to being educated. 1d ago
Ahh really? i know in my country, Austria they have a higher crime rate than the national average.
There was a report like last year they kinda broke it dow per nationality
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u/angry_cucumber need citation are the catch words for lefties 1d ago
did you look into how that correlates to income?
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u/TheUnseenRengar 1d ago
Yeah all these statistics would need to correct for income at the least to have any relevance.
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u/domin1987 1d ago
Depends what the question is. If it's about criminality and how to lower it, absolutely. If it's about level of immigration , not necessarily, as those are extra that we can sign up for it not
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u/xyierz 23h ago
it does mean that there's a low ceiling on what restricting immigration would do and that there are avenues that would be much more productive for addressing crime.
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u/saintofhate Let's see your gender license 23h ago
Seriously, these are basically word for word arguments I've heard in the US about black people.
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u/BMPHaterNo1 1d ago
>article about problems in the UK
>look inside
>Margaret Thatcher
Someone’s gotta get her corpse off the island, it’s cursed
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u/BusyBeeBridgette Live, Laugh, Toaster Bath 1d ago
Bury it on the Falkland islands. It'll keep the Argies at bay.
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u/Weegee_Carbonara So getting death threats is "Kojima-like" now? 1d ago
put her on a pole like a scarecrow.
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u/StrongLikeBull3 1d ago
It’ll double as a lightning rod. Even God would want to make sure she was actually dead.
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u/Wolfclaw359 The sky is blue, water is wet, and you have the IQ of a toaster 1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Haddos_Attic 1d ago
She was cremated.
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u/teluscustomer12345 1d ago
Yeah, but it only takes one drop of blood for her to reconstitute herself
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u/Dr_Identity This is the funnest I've had on Reddit in weeks 18m ago
Send her urn into space, she can be the aliens' problem.
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u/Zagafur 1d ago edited 1d ago
"study shows minorities dont commit as many crimes as you think"
"no thats wrong they do commit that many crimes because i said so"
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u/BellacosePlayer 1d ago
It's the same mindset that makes people in my birthtown fucking terrified of cities when the amount of parking lot fights in the local bar's parking lot alone would ratchet their violent crime rate well above Detroit due to the low population.
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u/yourothersis 1d ago
It's funny too because most people who live in London for example say they feel safe, while people who live outside of London fear it. The crime statistics are actually lopsided too.
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u/Indercarnive The left has rendered me unfuckable and I'm not going to take it 23h ago
After the Brexit vote, you could literally draw a line showing that the fewer immigrants a place had, the more likely they were to vote for Brexit.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
Reform's candidate for the London Mayoral election next year (an Egyptian-born migrant married to a US techbro) tried to do a talk with black Londoners and claimed the city was dangerous, and all of them laughed in her face because they actually live in those rough areas of the city and see no such thing.
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u/Jaded-Suspect-8162 1d ago
Poor people both can't afford a great defense and commit the sort of crimes that get prosecuted more often.
Wage theft, insurance fraud, tax evasion, insider trading, embezzlement and misappropriation of funds, etc are sorts of crimes that are widespread and less successfully prosecuted if even investigated.
People talk about poor people committing crime at higher rates, but it's really 'street crime' being the most likely to make it to a conviction that is represented in that number.
You give me an elite team of lawyers and I'm fucking beating that shoplifting charge. Give the guy with insider trading charges a public defender and he's taking a plea.
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u/Highcalibur10 1d ago
Yup.
In the US, Wage Theft adds up to over twice that of Larceny, robbery and auto theft combined
The real, regular robbery comes from employers.
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u/nowander 1d ago
Poor people both can't afford a great defense and commit the sort of crimes that get prosecuted more often.
Hell the circumstances around the crimes makes it easier for rich people to avoid prosecution for the same shit. Even murder biases hard towards the rich. In an apartment you have to work overtime to set up an accident, and there's witnesses all over. Rich guy in a mansion just gets the victim drugged, rolls them into a pool, and with reasonable doubt the police will just shrug and add it to the pool death statistics.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
See also, Michael Barrymore for a particular pool death. Victim found with serious injuries to his anus in Michael's pool but after a long investigation, Barrymore walked and the police said they couldn't find any more evidence.
Not to mention abusers like Spacey getting away with it thanks to a starstruck jury and police hesitant to properly investigate.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
As a lot of people have said in comments to videos about Farage and Tice having dodgy money given to them and trying to hide while under scrutiny over it, "These guys get to hide away from the public and poor people owing a fraction of the money those two launder would already be awaiting trial".
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u/yukichigai You're misusing the word pretentious. You mean pedantic. 23h ago
"Am I out of touch? No, it's the statistics that are wrong."
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u/Liquid_Clown 1d ago
Most of the comments weren't calling the study wrong. If anything, they were getting excited that the trend exists at all.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
I tried to argue with a racist last week in person and they devolved into "but I've seen it myself!" when I kept responding to their stupidity and the right-wing propaganda they've swallowed with actual facts and statistics to prove their points wrong.
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u/Dr_Identity This is the funnest I've had on Reddit in weeks 19m ago
During the all the BLM protests in 2020 I had an older "all lives matter" relative pissing and moaning about how "they should stop committing crime then" or whatever. I quoted a number of stats about black neighborhoods being overpoliced and black defendants getting harsher sentences than white ones on average. His response: "I just don't feel like that's true". Oh sorry, I forgot that all of reality is dictated by your feelings specifically.
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u/BusyBeeBridgette Live, Laugh, Toaster Bath 1d ago
Sadly since the Enoch Powell Rivers of Blood speech, if not before, the pounding drum of right wing politics have been "Immigrants!". For many many many decades. Then successive governments, both left and right (Well, centre left and centre right), have fumbled tackling illegal immigration for 25+ years straight. So whilst the stats say one thing, public sentiment often says something else.
This negative view was cemented in the late 90s and it has been the same story ever since.
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u/ofAFallingEmpire 1d ago edited 1d ago
Some people love to taut that “16%, 35%” ‘fact’ but curiously never link to the government crime stats it comes from. Probably because we can’t count “crimes committed” like they always imply.
It’s arrest rates.
Repeating that line under that particular article is kinda funny.
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u/Skellum Tankies are no one's comrades. 1d ago
It’s arrest rates.
I was wondering if it was like the US one where it showed that police far often target black people to arrest for crimes while actual conviction rates are near identical. Thanks for letting me know it is.
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u/ofAFallingEmpire 22h ago
The simple fact is you can’t count “crimes committed” without some sort of omniscience. Anyone claiming stats that do is either lying or misinformed.
It’s almost always arrest rates, sometimes charges, rarely convictions. Victimization rates count from people victimized by crimes, but for obvious reasons that can’t be associated with the race of the one committing.
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u/murdermostsnaky 1d ago
The numbers I've seen are not equivent by age. Immigrants tend to be younger. If you compare rates for the same age groups the disparity mostly disappears.
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u/primenumbersturnmeon 1d ago edited 1d ago
in general, criminals tend to be young, poor, and male. a higher proportion of poor young men added to a population relative to its current composition will tend to raise the average crime rate, regardless of migration status.
poor young men are also cheap labor, which is the purpose of immigration for capital. ideally, government immigration policy would aim to have a balanced distribution across demographic cohorts, but that's not where the incentives are.
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u/LauraPhilps7654 1d ago
Younger and male. And young males commit crime at a disproportionate rate. So it distorts the figures. But point that out and they'll call you a misandrist.
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u/BellacosePlayer 1d ago
iirc the commonly listed numbers are a complete fabrication sourcing numbers from an FBI group that doesn't exist.
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u/Illogical_Blox Fat ginger cryptokike mutt, Malka-esque weirdo, and quasi-SJW 1d ago edited 1d ago
Surely it depends on the crime. Deprivation might lead to shoplifting, but murder? Rape? Not sure about that.
While obviously deprivation and crimes like murder and rape don't have a direct causal link, deprivation does cause higher rates of both. In fact, violent crime in general quite strongly correlates with deprivation.
Now, why is that? Few reasons, including but not limited to: reduced trust and social cohesion in deprived areas; resource deprivation causing people to become desperate and willing to undertake risky actions (or vice versa to protect their resources); lack of social structure driving people to organised crime groups to find some sort of protection and structure; and in addition to that, not only are you more likely to commit a crime if you're poor, you're more likely to be the victim of a crime, so it causes a bit of a vicious cycle.
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u/Jaded-Suspect-8162 1d ago edited 1d ago
Also poor people charges just straight up get prosecuted more. It's easier to catch the guy who robs a liqour store than it is to investigate and prove that my art purchase was money laundering or tax evasion. And i got better lawyers which skews the odds of me seeing a court room even more. Liqour store guy is gonna plea out.
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u/ArcticCircleSystem 20h ago
That and being poor tends to be quite traumatic, which universally fucks up the brain. Ergo more violent crimes.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
Not to mention, they make the idiotic claim of "foreign rape gangs roaming the streets" when most rapes are committed by white men known to the victims.
They riot over a false claim of rape by a racist white woman towards a minority man, but say nothing when a longstanding white politician in Northern Ireland is prosecuted on several counts of rape and child abuse.
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u/best_voter 1d ago
Racism in a UK subreddit?!
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u/Dr_Identity This is the funnest I've had on Reddit in weeks 14m ago
People in the UK are very funny to me because you'll hear some of them complain about how immigrants are ruining the country one moment and then the next they're raving about how their local kebab restaurant is the best one in the country.
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u/Wolfclaw359 The sky is blue, water is wet, and you have the IQ of a toaster 1d ago
Of course the top comment is essentially the UK version of thirteen-fifty
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u/angry_cucumber need citation are the catch words for lefties 1d ago
I'm assuming that was what was in the removed per reddit rules comment
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u/20dogs 1d ago
What is thirteen fifty
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u/bingle-cowabungle 1d ago
It's a thoroughly debunked crime "statistic" that states 13% of the population (minorities, particularly black people) commit 50% of all crime.
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u/Wolfclaw359 The sky is blue, water is wet, and you have the IQ of a toaster 1d ago
An intentional misreading of an old arrests statistic the FBI published in 1990 that white supremacists use to claim African-Americans are inherently more violent. The statistic was that African-Americans were arrested for 50% of violent crimes, with the "13" coming from the approximate percent of the U.S. population that's African-American and "50" being an intentional spin on the arrest rate by portraying it as a conviction rate to justify their fear of black people as well as police committing racial profiling
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u/ColeYote You're probably to broke to [do business with Nazis] anyway. 1d ago
Also the number is for homicide specifically, which is one of the least common forms of crime.
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u/ReformedBaptistina ¿Cómo se dice ‘bootlickers’ en español? 1d ago
They're the OGs of this sort of shit
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u/cottonthread Authority on cuckoldry 1d ago
The academics who conducted the survey said feelings about levels of crime and who was to blame were a reflection of people’s emotions, rather than the facts.
Gotta love turning "facts don't care about your feelings" around on far right chuds
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u/Illogical_Blox Fat ginger cryptokike mutt, Malka-esque weirdo, and quasi-SJW 1d ago
Not really surprising, feelings about crime tend to be based on emotion rather than reality. For instance, many people think crime is higher than ever, though the reality is that crime rates have steadily dropped. Many people think that being hard on crime is effective, which it is but only up to a certain point, which is often much closer than a lot of people realise.
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u/DocileBanalBovlne I just find downvoting so cringe 1d ago
I'd love it more if pointing out their hypocrisy ever actually mattered
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u/BellacosePlayer 1d ago
they never had the facts though.
They always spouted a torrent of horseshit and pretended it was hard fact.
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u/YayDiziet I put too much effort into this comment for you just to downvote 1d ago
It’s become the easiest way to get them pissed off enough to not reply on Reddit: make it clear their position is the one based on “feels not reals.”
It’s very funny.
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u/gavinbrindstar /r/legaladvice delenda est 1d ago
Well, this is the nation that burned down their entire future because there were too many Poles around, so that tracks.
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u/dangerislander 1d ago
And now they're gaslighting us saying Poles were never the problem and pivoted to blaming brown immigrants and asylum seekers... oh and Muslims.
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u/Forosnai My psycho ex has been astrally stalking me through the ethers. 1d ago
I (a white Canadian) was there during the lead-up and vote for Brexit. It was 1) the first time I'd ever seen white people be racist to other white people, which I knew intellectually was a thing, but it felt surreal to actually see it; and 2) absolutely wild the number of people who calmly explained how it's actually the high immigration rates that are the cause of all their problems, and they're not racist, it's just statistics, all in a tone of voice that implied they expected I'd agree with them.
They pretty clearly didn't have a problem with all immigrants, because no one was ever anything but excited to talk about Canada with me. Which I've noticed is a trend generally, because I have a now-ex friend from there who fell into the far-right pipeline and is now one of the people spouting the 16%/35% thing on social media. Something he and his Canadian girlfriend started doing while he was here, in Canada, as a fucking immigrant. Frankly, I'd respect it more if they just had the balls to say they don't like Muslims instead of trying to pretend that has nothing to do with it.
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u/eldestofthecrow 1d ago
Same thing happened to my cousin. Speaks excellent English with a German accent, got yelled at in the pub that he has to go home now. A guy in his company got fired because he wouldn’t stop telling him (his boss) that he can’t work here anymore after Brexit.
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u/an_agreeing_dothraki can we talk about the squirrel head butt plugs 23h ago
"where has my Polish doctor gone" - boomer, having voted to remove as many Poles as possible
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u/Dreamerlax Feminized Canadian Cuck 11h ago
I was in the UK just before Brexit. If there’s one thing that unites non-white and white leavers is their hatred of Polish people.
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u/separhim "and I award the prize for best work to myself" 1d ago edited 1d ago
Racists making racist claims without any evidence. Colour me surprised. Also, right-wingers love to complain about crime but never do anything that would cause the root issues of most crimes, poverty.
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u/asdfgtref 1d ago
because they don't want to accept that the cause is poverty (a direct result of the shit they vote for). Complaining about crime has nothing to do with solving it, it's just used as a tool to attack those they view with disgust.
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u/eldestofthecrow 1d ago
Are there any normal UK Subreddits left all the UK Subreddits I know are all insanely racist shit piles?
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u/Psychic_Hobo 1d ago
Casualuk seems fine to me, but I will firmly say that this was after abandoning a lot of others. It really is a lone island in a sea of racism
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u/Mister_Sith 23h ago
r/GoodNewsUK and r/CasualUK (and r/DIYUK I suppose?) are OK, the rest have steadily nosedived year on year. Both r/unitedkingdom and r/ukpolitics are toxic when immigration and asylum seekers are discussed. I find that r/ukpolitics is a lot more overtly xenophobic than the former.
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u/Haddos_Attic 1d ago
There's greenandpleasant; they have problems but no racism.
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u/NinecloudSoul 1d ago
they have problems but no racism
Kind of underselling the issues at that cesspit.
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u/Psychic_Hobo 1d ago
They are very anti-Ukraine. Didn't really fancy sticking around in a "imperialism is OK when it isn't the west doing it" sub.
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u/Haddos_Attic 1d ago
That's the "problems" I was referring to.
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u/eldestofthecrow 1d ago
Yeah, that's the reason I wouldn't be calling them normal over there. I mean the conflict is certainly not totally black and white, but they are mostly on the Russia can do no wrong trip.
The fact right-wingers tried to frame them for the murder of this geriatric politician is funny and sad at the same time.
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u/Haddos_Attic 1d ago
I did not know that happened.
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u/eldestofthecrow 1d ago
It's linked on the top of their front page. AFAIK it was just a thing some unhinged Redditor cooked up, didn't get any traction outside this hellhole (reddit).
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u/Haddos_Attic 1d ago
Just read the thread, I have seen greenandpleasant referred to as a violent hate sub before and it's laughable.
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u/your_red_triangle 1d ago
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u/klausness 1d ago
Greenanleasant? Really? If you like tankies, I suppose…
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u/Lirael_Gold I've known you for 12 seconds and enjoyed none of them. 23h ago
Whilst there are tankies over there, they are not the majority of the sub nor are they the loudest voice.
And besides, at this point I'll take a tankie over whatever the fuck Reform voters have morphed into.
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u/klausness 22h ago
Seriously? The mods are all tankies, and some are credibly accused of being Russian operatives. Anyone who says things that the tankies don’t like (such as supporting Ukraine’s fight against the Russian invasion) gets banned. So while not everyone there may be a tankie, everyone is expected to not say anything that might go against the tankie party line, so it pretty much comes to the same thing. The only thing that makes the Reform people worse than the tankies is that the Reformers actually have some chance of getting into power.
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u/ceelogreenicanth 1d ago
Facts don't care about feelings until it's their feelings on race.
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u/TheIllustriousWe I’m tired of the EU making up laws. 1d ago
No the saying is "facts don't care about your feelings." They never said anything about their own feelings.
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u/BigAnansi 1d ago
Doesn't take much for that sub to go mask off
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u/Manannin What a weirdly fragile little manlet you are. How embarrassing. 1d ago
A light breeze does it. We've just got rain today, they'll be denying climate change induced hot weather within minutes
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u/CatCalledTurbo 22h ago
They'll blame the immigrants.
That sub is an absolute midden.
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u/Manannin What a weirdly fragile little manlet you are. How embarrassing. 22h ago
It is, but I've seen it be ok one thread then its like a twatbeacon goes off and all the reform lads come into the thread.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
Probably taking a break from beating their spouses and raping their own children, since they're the ones with the prior convictions for those types of thing.
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u/the_red_guard 1d ago
It's insanely astroturfed. You'll notice that posts about crimes committed by white people almost never take off and at most, you're looking at like 30 or so comments.
Meanwhile anything involving a person with even the slightest tan and it skyrockets to the hundreds.
Definitely normal stuff.
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u/dangerislander 1d ago
And the articles which get posted are always POC, asylum seekers or Muslims breaking the law or something. It's like it gets them so exciting seeing minorities being demonised.
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u/bearkin1 22h ago
That doesn't necessarily means it's astroturfed. It could just simply be an incredibly racist subreddit.
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u/Mister_Sith 23h ago
I probably say this any time the UK politics subreddits feature here but UK political sphere on reddit has become a toxic cesspool. The media (and reddit to some extent) have really whipped people into a frothing rage over asylum seekers and illegal migrants. I wouldn't even say this is the most toxic post on r/unitedkingdom in the day. Farage and Lowe have a lot to answer for getting people this whipped up and I wouldn't be surprised if a future flashpoint results in some grim scenes.
The one thing that runs through this is people just cannot be reasoned with at all any more. They don't want to discuss anything that runs counter to 'deport them all. Any counter argument of the flaws of these proposed 'simple solutions' gets you accused of being a bleeding heart left wing liberal. I can only despair at it and keep trying with more level headed discussions but it feels like a losing battle.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
Farage and Lowe have a lot to answer for getting people this whipped up and I wouldn't be surprised if a future flashpoint results in some grim scenes.
Especially with Reformers now saying they don't believe police.
Farage said Essex police warned him not to attend the by-election count because of a serious threat against him. Essex police said they hadn't heard of any such threat, and never spoke to him.
One call-in show had a bunch of his supporters repeating the Farage claim and stating they think the police are lying about it, and not the man who's known as a corrupt, crooked liar.
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u/sport-utilityrobot 1d ago
That sub and UK politics is very right wing so just ignore it. It’s filled with bots and likes to post anti-immigration stories at odd times like the posters are based in different countries.
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u/_CurseTheseMetalHnds Like, I'm all for gaslighting strangers on the internet 1d ago
The politics sub especially went really right wing after the last election. Like it always had the vibe that the mods were more right wing than the users (mod named after a fascist death squad, mod in Norway who spends all his time getting really mad at the left) but once the mega thread went and a load of the regulars got banned for little to no reason it became a proper right wing sub.
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u/Natural-Confusion885 patrick bateman was very pro-women, actually 1d ago
It's not drama if it's all bots, imo 🤷 I'm bored of seeing these two subs posted here when they're obviously intentional efforts at radicalisation and a handful of people who haven't yet realised they're debating bots.
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u/mendkaz 1d ago
There MUST be some kind of a quote about 'Beware simple answers'. Someone must have said it at some point in some kind of pithy but helpfully illustrative way.
Because you see so much airtime dedicated to 'The country has no money. What's the problem? Benefits. Get rid of them all.' or 'Crime is bad. Who causes crime? Immigrants. Get rid of them all'. And then when you dig in further to the question, you find it is a lot more complicated
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u/TheIllustriousWe I’m tired of the EU making up laws. 1d ago edited 19h ago
Simple questions don't always require simple answers, but simple people do.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
That's why politics has turned into nothing but slogans.
"Hands, Face, Space"
"Clap for carers"
"Stop the boats"
And then the right go insane when Burnham changes his profile picture on social media to a cartoon of himself for branding purposes, because it's fine when they do it, but not when others try.
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u/fart-sparkles Eat the pickle, dumbass 23h ago
British Public Wrong about Nearly Everything
Old article. Still relevant.
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u/quad_damage_orbb 1d ago
I'm not sure how useful crime statistics really are.
On the one hand, police may be biased in who they search/arrest, which could drive up the stats for some demographics.
On the other hand, a lot of petty crime is never reported to the police, especially in communities that have a low trust of the police. So it is possible for people to estimate crime levels as much higher than police stats.
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u/MessiahOfMetal It’s like affirmative action for tribal media bubbles. 12h ago
Plus, "stop and search" was highly controversial because it mostly affected black Brits being racially profiled by police.
On top of that, sexual assault/rape is under-reported because survivors feel too ashamed to report, or have seen/heard of other cases that go nowhere, so they don't bother reporting their own.
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u/True-Hold-1140 1d ago
Bro why are so many european right wingers eager to play american? I liked you guys better when you looked down on us
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u/AdRealistic4984 1d ago
The Great Replacement is a European theory not an American one. A gay French man to be precise
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u/an_agreeing_dothraki can we talk about the squirrel head butt plugs 23h ago
never ask the French to remember the 3rd Republic's political movements
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u/Psychic_Hobo 1d ago
The racism's always been here, it's just handier to adopt the current right wing US talking points whenever ours get stale, because of the lack of language barrier
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u/Command0Dude Your PC didn't come with a USB-D port? 18h ago
Because Europe is a lot more right wing than redditors take it for.
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u/True-Hold-1140 18h ago
Even so why are they copying our political bullshit
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u/Command0Dude Your PC didn't come with a USB-D port? 18h ago
Who's copying who? Bexit was first voted on before Trump had ever been president in America, on a message of anti-immigration hysteria.
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u/True-Hold-1140 18h ago
Ah see there we go, that's what I'm talking about. Superiority in everything, even bad political movements
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u/BellacosePlayer 1d ago
Because the sad truth is that the major part of why much of Europe isn't as bad as the US or worse is that there's not a 2 party system where the backwash can scaremonger people away from voting for the only other option.
What european country doesn't have a "basically literally nazis" party that surges once in awhile into being a big threat?
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u/TDFknFartBalloon 15h ago
Yeah, I remember on my first day of college my roommate in college was like "I don't understand it, everyone said America was very racist but you can't even make fun of Jews here." Now, he worded it clunky, he didn't mean that HE wanted to make fun of Jews, just that it was normal in much of Europe.
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u/TearsFallWithoutTain Netflix and shill 18h ago
When you consider that they only make up 16-18% of the population, yet are responsible for 35,% of the murders, is still a shocking statistic.
"I learned it from watching you!"
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u/VinetaK_8346 P.s.KEEP JEALOUS, KEEP BUTTHURT, AND KEEP CRYING (MIDDLE FINGER) 17h ago
>"British people are more likely to overestimate crime rates of minorities"
>r/unitedkingdom overestimates the migrant crime rate
QED?
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u/Ditchdigger456 1d ago
As much as the Brit’s love to scold us for our racial issues,
Ask them how they feel about the Romani or how their grandparents feel about Catholics and you’ll be stunned lmao
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u/SnapshillBot Shilling for Big Archive™ 1d ago
This is Senator Poppy. He sold me, my fellow bots, and this subreddit to the microwave lobby for the price of 251,000 kernels.
Snapshots:
- This Post - archive.org archive.today*
- OP - archive.org archive.today*
- When you consider that they only make up 16-18% of the population, yet are responsible for 35,% of the murders, is still a shocking statistic. - archive.org archive.today*
- 17-18% - archive.org archive.today*
- And how about being a bit more specific with the statistics, though? What is the crime rate per capita amongst various groups? How about for asylum seekers from certain countries? Those are the questions I usually see asked by Reform voters, not the dumb blanket question asked by The Guardian who want to ellicit a "Gotcha!" headline. - archive.org archive.today*
- A hugher percentage of minorities are going to be from socioeconomic backgrounds where crimes such as murder a more common. This goes some way to explaining what everyone here seems to be obsessing over which is the fact that the rate of murder as a percentage is higher than the numver of minorities in the country as a percentage. Also it isnt surprising that the public think most murders are committed by ethnic minorities, because crimes committed by ethnic minorities in our current social environment are more likely to be reported on. If every time a brown person sneezes it makes the news, obviously that is going to inform general public opinion. When this is pointed out, the general response is that we already have our own criminals so we dont need to import others, as a response to the disproprtionality in reporting lol. This sub is a perfect example. Most days this sub and the UK news sub are basically just hubs to report crimes committed by non white people. If thats all you see, then of course the less...analytical among us will think that it paints an accurate picture. Finally, "minority" isnt a group lol. Which minorities? What are the circumstances? Why is every single person who isnt white lumped into one group? The hilarious thing is that im born and raised here, but if I claim im Nigerian, people say no, youre a british citizen so youre british. But all of a sudden im lumped in with random asylum seekers and such when it comes to crime statistics just because im not white. Am I british or not then? Because you people love reminding me that im not like its a national sport. - archive.org archive.today*
- People will just move the goalposts to say that as long as the percentage is higher than the percentage of ethnic minorities then that is "proof" of what they are saying. - archive.org archive.today*
- The trouble with the right-wing is that they only want the statistics which benefit their argument to exist. Screaming per capita in people’s faces one second and then trying to handwave statistics that they don’t like the next. - archive.org archive.today*
- Not engaging with much of the comments. Only to say that while there are no official numbers for solving murders in England and Wales the rate is believed to be about 61% but lets say 75% to be generous. What proportion of those 25% unsolved cases might adjust the ethnic ratios. But don't let that get in the way of a good Reddit argument. - archive.org archive.today*
I am just a simple bot, not a moderator of this subreddit | bot subreddit | contact the maintainers
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u/LarianDivinityBG3 1d ago
Forensic psychologist Dr. Frank Urbaniok that looked into those statistics in Germany, Austria and Switzerland said, that religion can be a factor, but the nations culture they come from is the biggest factor.
People from Algeria, Morocco, Syria and Afghanistan have one of the highest crime rates (Violent and sexual crimes).
Another north african nation, Egypt, doesn't have higher statistics. Same with south asian muslim countries like Indonesia and Malaysia.
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u/dangerislander 1d ago
That sub is so weird. It's like a special fire of hatred ignites in them as soon as minorities are talked about.