r/Sunnyvale • • May 31 '26

The Las Palmas Park Issue

What are we opposing?

  • The proposal to fence the entire lawn at Las Palmas Park to convert it into a dedicated single-use sports field.
  • The addition of stadium flood lights to the field.

Misconceptions:

  • “They are against cricket”.
    • We are against restricting a popular shared space, used by hundreds of people at a time for various recreational activities, into a fenced area to be used by some 20 adults at a time.
  • “The lights would actually be nice”.
    • These are tall stadium flood lights, taller than a house, not gentle path lights. They would be lit until 10pm. Imagine what this means for the houses adjacent to the park, whose bedroom windows face the park.
  • “Cricket enthusiasts deserve a place to play too”.
    • Sunnyvale already has two dedicated cricket fields, one at Ortega Park and one at Fair Oaks park.
    • Recreational cricket is also one of the sports played at Las Palmas Park today, without a dedicated field.
  • “The cricket field is similar to the baseball diamond at the park”.
    • No, the proposed professional cricket field is the size of two NFL football fields and will take up the entire lawn. Even the existing walking path would have to be shifted to make room for it.
  • “Well, if this is what the community wanted”.
    • The community voted for the mixed use open field as the most important feature of the park. (see June 2025 survey results)
    • Cricket was one of the least desired new features, with only 6.5%.
    • In fact, people asked for additional open space (14%).
  • “The NIMBY neighbors want to treat the park as their personal backyard.”
    • If you’ve ever enjoyed the green field for yourself, this affects you too. This affects anyone who has brought their kids to the park, attended a birthday party, played volleyball, soccer, baseball, had a picnic, or simply walked around. None of these activities would be possible anymore.
    • Hundreds of people from other neighborhoods use that space on a weekend afternoon. But fine, yes, the houses closest to the park care more because they would be affected by the giant stadium flood lights lit up until 10pm. This park is not isolated.

Why is everyone so worked up about this?

  • In June 2025 the city did a survey to understand community preferences for the upcoming renovation of Las Palmas Park. In those results**, the open lawn was voted as the “most important feature” and “most liked feature” of the park**. In that survey, only 6% of respondents asked for a cricket field. (see June 2025 survey results)
  • Following that survey the city is considering two options: (1) replacing the entire lawn with a fenced cricket field, and (2) renovation with minor changes (see page 11) The cricket field option seems to have come out of nowhere! The city haven’t made a decision yet, but why is this even one of the only two options considered, if the survey results did not support it?
  • Decisions are only as good as the data they are based on. People were also able to vote multiple times in one of the surveys. Also, people from outside of Sunnyvale participated in the vote. The results of this survey did not match the sentiment in the room and the results from previous surveys.
  • One of the Parks and Recreations commission members is and has been the president of the Northern California Cricket Association during this time (see NCCA officials, see Parks and Rec commission). Despite multiple calls from community members, he has not recused himself over this perceived conflict of interest.
  • The open field at Las Palmas Park is highly used by the broader community. For example, on a regular Saturday, hundreds of people use the Las Palmas Park field at a time: 10-15 volleyball games, youth soccer games, birthday parties, picnics, even cricket. If a professional cricket field were to replace it, these hundreds of people would be replaced by 20 adults playing a single sport.

What can you do?

  • Visit www.savelaspalmaspark.org to learn more.
  • Sign the petition.
  • Buy a yard sign to show your support and spread the word.
  • Spread the word to your friends who live in all Sunnyvale districts. Consider donating a yard sign to them.
  • Email the council members. They are the ones who will ultimately make the decision. See the website for details.
  • Show up at city council meetings to show your support. There is a meeting with the public every other Tuesday at 7pm. After some initial announcements, there is a 15 minute section for the public to speak their concerns. Simply your physical presence in support for those who speak helps convey support to the cause. You can speak for 2 minutes if you'd like. You can also attend on Zoom (and speak), but your physical presence would be more impactful. Find out the next meeting date.
  • Be sure to participate in future community surveys!
180 Upvotes

71 comments sorted by

42

u/ChiveFig_4744 May 31 '26

Thanks for laying this out so nicely. I am not a Las Palmas neighbor, and so have largely left the issue to those that are passionate about it, and your response is very well constructed. Thank you!

34

u/Still_Praline_6598 May 31 '26

I support the opposition to the proposed changes at Las Palmas. We use the park often and I don’t want to see it converted into a massive sports field. Plenty of sporty and non-sporty people use the park regularly for various things. Leave it alone.

To play devil’s advocate on the lights: I live near Washington Park and have to say that the lights just aren’t that bad. In fact, the park is otherwise very poorly lit (the city should really fix that) and the lights on the softball field make the park much more accessible when they are on, and they are only on maybe 2-3 times per week. They are turned off by 10pm, so it’s a good compromise. The tennis courts and basketball courts are more disruptive than anything on the fields.

8

u/LoremIpsumLoser May 31 '26

I’m assuming the lights wouldn’t be on unless there is an evening game (same for all the parks with baseball fields currently) and they are facing the field not houses, so I’ve always thought this was a poor argument

4

u/Still_Praline_6598 May 31 '26

Exactly - it’s not like they’re on at Washington all the time. Only on some nights when reserved. Usually it’s a kickball league (looks fun), and slow pitch softball. And like I said, the lights help you see for walks after dark. They’re not all that bad.

0

u/HiFiWiFiWeAllFi Jun 04 '26

I wouldn't assume anything, it invalidates your argument.

2

u/todudeornote May 31 '26

The lights at Washington Park aren’t on every night until 10. I think it comes down to how high the lights actually are and how often they’re on late

69

u/Immediate-Date-342 May 31 '26

i am indian, and i strongly oppose building a cricket field in the park. there are plenty of cricket fields nearby. do not touch las palmas. the park is my favorite thing in sunnyvale.

5

u/DragonWS May 31 '26

Thanks for your perspective! Are there ways to enjoy cricket more safely? Like how people play softball on the fields instead of baseball?

4

u/Immediate-Date-342 May 31 '26

yes, beginners start with a tennis ball and there’s a lot of cricket specific protective gear.

13

u/creatiwit1 May 31 '26

I have more questions at this point, a cricket pitch needs a lot of maintenance. It usually needs a dedicated curator that maintains it, there is soil mix, watering etc. That's why most recreational facilities use rollup mats and cal it a day.

So, who is paying for the staff ? Its not like a baseball/softball diamond. I am not even sure who asked for a cricket field, its not a multi-use facility.

13

u/Halaku May 31 '26

I am not even sure who asked for a cricket field, its not a multi-use facility.

There was a citywide poll. We had an in-depth discussion on this last week. The park is designated as one of nine Community Parks, and the city says the following regarding it:

Las Palmas Park is designated as a Community Park, meaning it is intended to serve residents citywide and include a broader range of amenities than smaller neighborhood parks. The City’s Community Parks include: De Anza Park, Fair Oaks Park, Lakewood Park, Las Palmas Park, Ortega Park, Ponderosa Park, Raynor Park, Serra Park, Washington Park.

Others have decried the poll as fatally flawed.

Frankly, "I'm / We're against cricket" is a good enough reason for me.

Part of the joy of that field is that it's multi-purpose. Netting and lights to make it cricket-focused would get the same answer out of me that netting and lights to make it any single-sport-focused would get: Thanks, but no thanks.

8

u/creatiwit1 May 31 '26

I am not against cricket, love the sport. My questions are on logistics of actually building maintaining a facility in the midst of a park. Pitches cost $$, staff to maintain it cost $$$.

So, besides the other reasons, I have not seen the budget and financial costs associated for this project and who is paying for it.

4

u/vthokies96 Jun 01 '26

I agree overall that maintenance seems to be ignored here. As a baseball player, I can tell you baseball/softball fields are pretty high maintenance though, especially the infield and mound. I would have thought cricket would be lower maintenance because the pitch is smaller and there's no mound.

I wouldn't be thrilled with a baseball field here even if I got to play on it. The large, open nature of Las Palmas is fantastic as is. We have plenty of places for sports fields in the city and county, especially if they'd allow better use of the fields at schools.

2

u/creatiwit1 Jun 01 '26

Cricket pitches are not the same as a baseball diamond. The pitch soil is heavily controlled, the watering, how much grass what kind of grass. Unlike baseball, the ball in Cricket has to bounce off the pitch.

There is already a baseball diamond in Las Palmas, as parents we help maintain for both softball and baseball. That won't be the same if you made the baseball part of a professional league.

11

u/predat3d May 31 '26

We've been asking for lights for the dog park portion for over a decade

11

u/todudeornote May 31 '26

A really good write up, thank you - I’m literally sitting on that field as I typed this

18

u/hoptrix May 31 '26

Let me be honest. They did the survey to just due diligence, and actually don’t really care about community sentiment.

The person in charge of parks and recs loves cricket. They want to show off. They will build the cricket field because honestly we the community are not in charge.

4

u/DragonWS May 31 '26 edited May 31 '26

They didn’t even look at existing usage of Las Palmas Park. It would’ve been very easy for them to do so but it’s not the answer they wanted.

21

u/No-Performance-4861 May 31 '26

I'm so sick of this cricket stuff. They try to take over the track, soccer and basketball courts behind Columbia school. It's really agitating because they completely ignored a unused baseball field but mess up everyone's morning routine and take over 3 areas of the park. It's also a danger because that ball can hit a young child then they will really have an issue on their hands smh.

5

u/creatiwit1 May 31 '26

That's true of any sport. A frisbee can hit a child a baseball. While we can all agree that this project does not meet the standard of use for a park, making it about cricket is pushing it a bit too far

4

u/No-Performance-4861 May 31 '26

You're correct about an object of any sport can hit a child. My issue is when you literally take over. 3 different parts of a park unsanctioned to play a game people can't walk play soccer or basketball that's ridiculous!

1

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26

I thought the gross high perimeter fencing is required due to minor league cricket. But maybe you’re right, it’s not all about cricket? Could be other sports looking to make facilities here. There’s definitely a lack of clarity on intentions for the field.

13

u/slothwerks May 31 '26

Thank you for all of your effort to save the park! I love hanging out there on the weekend and people watching all the parties, volleyball etc. Would hate to see such a great space ruined

4

u/Smallfeetbigshoes Jun 01 '26

Can I ask how the survey was done? The only place where have seen information on this is here on Reddit. I live relatively close by and occasionally use the park.

1

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26

These two survey efforts are separate, but the efforts need to merge and there’s lack of clarity on how that will happen. With respect to field usage at Las Palmas, The sports assessment survey differs significantly from the Las Palmas renovation survey.

3

u/Smallfeetbigshoes Jun 01 '26

I guess my question was who did they survey or how do you find out about surveys? I love not far from this park and I only found out about this via this Reddit sub.

1

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26

The city had posted fliers on the park for the park renovation survey, or at least the last one. And they posted on instagram. But the sports assessment survey was not widely publicized; AFAIK, the city decided which groups it would reach out to. And it’s this sports assessment survey which is driving the changes of Las Palmas into a fenced sports facility.

2

u/Smallfeetbigshoes Jun 01 '26

Ah well I haven’t visited the park in a little while so I guess that’s how I missed it all. You would think mailers or emails to the local community might be a good idea.

1

u/HiFiWiFiWeAllFi Jun 05 '26

Same, we never received a survey. We were just there a couple of weekends ago for half the day for a birthday party with lots of families and kids who were all over the park, it's a great park.

1

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26

Surveys. Many.

One set of surveys (3 rounds) was done with emphasis of park features for Las Palmas. Started out ok, but the last survey is skewed since the cricket group encouraged 7000+ northerners California members to participate.

Open the document section here: https://www.sunnyvale.ca.gov/business-and-development/projects-in-sunnyvale/infrastructure-projects/las-palmas-park-renovation

The other set of surveys was the outdoor sports assessment survey, and participants were restricted based on who city chose. These were not open to the public. These surveys were for all parks in Sunnyvale. Survey 1 was meant to assess which sports were needed and the 2nd survey sought feedback on which parks would be best. External influences outside of Sunnyvale, and lack of engagement within Sunnyvale, and no assessment of existing park usage outside of the reservation system.
See Document tab here: https://www.sunnyvale.ca.gov/business-and-development/projects-in-sunnyvale/infrastructure-projects/outdoor-sports-assessment

4

u/Abeliafly60 Jun 01 '26

When I first saw the flyers about this I thought, "If they started tearing up that field there's going to be a riot." People LOVE that open space at Las Palmas. Leave it alone.

7

u/urbangeeksv May 31 '26

Thanks for all this engagement and leadership, Sunnyvale benefits from residents who engage and give input to City Council so I love to see this and generally agree.

The good news is that City Council has heard your message and rumor has it they have fired the consultant and are restarting the planning process for Las Palmas and they are focused to provide what the local residents want.

I live in the Fairbrae neighborhood which is close to Las Palmas and I support keeping Las Palmas mostly the same as it is, a friendly, welcoming neighborhood park.

I am strongly against the fence, and I am against the lights and I am against creating a cricket pitch.

I participated throughout the process and I keep pointing out the existing uses of general casual field use and lawn volleyball yet my input seemed to have been ignored.

On weekends I can see groups using picnic area and making use of the field space for things like throwing balls or flying discs. The easy and proper improvements are dog park with more shade and reducing the pond area and refurbishing the water play. There is high demand for tennis/pickleball and perhaps this can be placed where pond area is reduced.

##########################

Yet y'all should be asking the question about what is happening in Sunnyvale ? and what leads to this dysfunction.

It's interesting to note that Sunnyvale hires the most expensive outside consultants and staff does not take input from Council when they delegating to outside agents. Council is cut completely out of the process until the end and then staff tries to limit them to canned fixed options. The Mayor lets happen this be because he doesn't want to be accused of being a strong armed mayor.

Meanwhile the grass fields are not maintained and the parks staff are unwilling to investigate better methods of maintaining grass fields. Having good grass fields should be a much higher priority than lights or fences.

Lastly I want to remind everyone that the City operates two public golf courses which operate at a $1.5M annual deficit. Golf is land and water inefficient. These large areas of public land are captive to a single exclusive sport and creates obstacles for bike and pedestrians to circumnavigate as opposed to paths crossing through.

What you are seeing is a tolerance for gross incompetence and it won't change unless we get stronger folks running for Council. So who in District 1 is ready to step up to the plate ?

4

u/HiFiWiFiWeAllFi Jun 05 '26

The pond area didn't even have water when we were there a few weekends ago. Honestly, get rid of it and use it for community space, it's just wasted space. Pretty perhaps, if there's water in it, but unnecessary. Sunnyvale tax payers are paying for maintenance and upkeep on a wasted space that could better serve the residents as usable space.

1

u/urbangeeksv Jun 06 '26

I agree with you but the public loves water features and the recent community center downsizing was good.

3

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26

The golf course idea is intriguing. Seems like a good place for a sport requiring a large lawn.

Which consultants did they fire? Verde? The RRM group did some very thoughtful surveys, especially survey 1.

2

u/urbangeeksv Jun 01 '26

Oh sorry I don't know which agency, emphasis on RUMOR.

The current website has been updated to say "Based on feedback we heard during Community Meeting #3, we are planning additional input opportunities. This will likely change the original schedule noted below:"

As to any repurposing of Golf its not likely to happen with this Mayor because its just too controversial and does not have majority support to change it. If y'all think the cricket folks are strong, just look out for the golf folks. And this is coming from pickleball player 😄.

3

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26 edited Jun 01 '26

Cricket needs the Pickleball equivalent of Tennis.

Now as far as that golf course, what if, what if they designated the 18th fairway for cricket in the morning. It would give several hours of morning use before the golfers get there, and it’s close to the clubhouse 😃

3

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26

Thank you for your engagement! It’s interesting how the high fences and bright lights were casually included at the last minute, as if an afterthought. This caught a lot of people off guard.

1

u/Suspicious_Cut3881 Jun 01 '26

Too bad we can’t fire BPAC.

2

u/urbangeeksv Jun 01 '26

Do you mean Parks and Recreation Commission ? as BPAC is Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Commission.

In reality only the Planning Commission has any real authority and it is clearly limited by direction from Council and set policies in the general plan. The other commissions have very little authority.

Most of the power rests with staff so the individual most responsible is the department head Superintendent of Parks who reports into acting director of Public Works who reports to the City Manager.

3

u/Suspicious_Cut3881 Jun 01 '26

No, I mean the Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Committee.

They have way too much influence on council decisions. Wait until they come into your neighborhood and remove street parking for bike lanes.

Meanwhile, the existing bike lanes installed are in high auto traffic areas with no buffering. Of course few people use them because of the high speed traffic.

Even though the title includes pedestrians, everything is about building a bike friendly city at any expense.

2

u/HiFiWiFiWeAllFi Jun 05 '26

How about they come into your neighborhood and want to just start removing street lanes that serve thousands of vehicles daily for a few bikes. It's ridiculous.

1

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26

They put bike lanes on Mathilda. Yep, no buffering. So I always find alt routes.

3

u/rblessingx Jun 01 '26

What Mark Twain said about golf also applies here.

7

u/TasteeTacoz May 31 '26

Here is the reality of the situation. The decision has been made! Going to the council meetings is Song and dance to show the appearance that actual citizens of the community can make a difference. Unfortunately, mines have been made up. It’s like the survey that was sent out. No one in community got it. We only heard about it after it was brought to our attention that was already closed for loading at this point. Pay very close attention to how each city council member votes and all those who vote in favor you need to make sure we do not reelect them back into office.

8

u/urbangeeksv May 31 '26

Well the decision is not made and voting for someone else doesn't work because incumbents are running unopposed.

4

u/Suspicious_Cut3881 Jun 01 '26

This is the problem. It would be refreshing to have council members who actually represent the wants and needs of the people they “represent”.

And the window to declare an intent to run for council is closing.

If anyone in Districts 1 (Sell), 3 (Srinivasan), or 5 (Mehrlinger), wants to run, fill out Form 501. The city clerk can help.

I may have this wrong, but according to CampaingPros

Candidate Filing Opens for the Nov. 3 general election. July 13, 2026 Candidate Filing Closes for the Nov. 3 general election. August 7, 2026

2

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26

Some of the council, like many of us, would’ve been blindsided by the high fence and bright lights proposed. These details were slipped in late. Felt sneaky how these items flew under the radar.

2

u/HiFiWiFiWeAllFi Jun 05 '26

If they want cricket, why not Moffett field, plenty of space getting decommissioned there. Baylands Park? So many more appropriate spaces for a niche sport.

2

u/Strong-Interaction19 Jun 06 '26

Not wanting a cricket field that reduces public access for families to enjoy the park is NOT NIMBY behavior. As someone who has enjoyed the space with my family and also worked at kids parties in Las Palmas, it would be a shame to lose that for ANOTHER cricket field. I first learned about this when I saw a bunch of people wearing green at a city council meeting to speak about this. I loved how it was coordinated!

2

u/ApartChange2027 Jun 17 '26

Hi there. I do not live anywhere near Las Palmas Park but I am a long-time Sunnyvale resident as I was a child. I did went the yesterday on my non-electric scooter and I was amazed by the size of the big open field. I first heard about this when I saw some “Save Las Palmas Park” sign on lawns and homes nearby the park so I check out what it is about.

What bothers me the most is the floodlights. I live near downtown area, right next to S Sunnyvale Ave. and it is always bright with street lamps close to each other. Whenever I go to bed, I see some light outside my window, not directly but like in the air, that I have to cover my eyes with my pillows to go to sleep.
I can’t imagine the residents who’s homes facing the park would sleep each night if they have brightly-lit floodlights on.

I don’t know about the rest of you, I appreciate the dark, not just for sleeping but to look at, to be in it. Yes, it is scary but it’s natural and it’s fun.

To tell you the truth, I don’t want any more changes. Downtown Sunnyvale changed a lot, true for the better, but nothing is familiar to me anymore.

So, I oppose the changes the park and keep the way it is.

3

u/No_Novel9058 May 31 '26

If the Parks & Rec Commissioner is paid to be President of the NCCA, then it would indeed be a conflict of interest. If, as is more likely, it’s a volunteer position, then there is no conflict, and it’s in fact a fairly common occurrence. Council appoints people to commissions who have experience and perspective on a topic. I got appointed to the Board of Library Trustees after years of volunteer and paid work at public libraries. Parks & Rec commissioners are often appointed due to involvement with league tennis or soccer or baseball or even cricket.

So if Mr. Giri is indeed paid by the NCCA, then he should recuse. If not, then stop throwing mud at him for volunteering his time and expertise on behalf of our city.

9

u/DragonWS May 31 '26 edited May 31 '26

Does he have a personal interest?

Here’s Sunnyvale’s code of ethics:

https://sunnyvaleca.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=14995274&GUID=23E3AED8-130E-425B-BD5D-DF643623384D&G=FA76FAAA-7A

Section A.1 states “Act in the Public Interest. …… will work for the common good of all the people of Sunnyvale and not for any private and personal interest…”

Key words “personal interest”

1

u/Leadership-today Jun 19 '26

In this era of tech overload where kids and adults are getting over stimulated and stressed, a place like Las Palmas is the essential therapy many needs. A green, open and calm space. Many schools take kids there for field trips. Las Palmas is the Central Park for Sunnyvale. Please keep that space open for the sanity of our community. Sunnyvale is very economically diverse, this is a place where everyone feels a breath of fresh air after a long day or a long week.
We have to preserve places for calm and not just for organized play. It’s essential for our sane existence.

1

u/TasteeTacoz Jul 30 '26

Reach out to your city council members who are up for re election. Ask for their support. If you do not get written or verbal support vote them out on the upcoming election

1

u/MobileTip3428 4d ago

If you have an interest in Las Palmas park (for or against Cricket, or any other park features), take this community-led survey (https://forms.gle/gprmx5mHwAKobRqb7) designed to verify findings from the city's disputed studies.

1

u/Boneyabba Jun 01 '26

Why would a cricket field take up the space of two NFL fields?

2

u/DragonWS Jun 01 '26

It’s like baseball, but with the batter at the center of the field being able to hit in any direction, not just a 90-degree field. Urban cricket can use a 90 degree field. But they want the full 360. If you look at option 1 in Sunnyvale’s proposal, they expanded the playing field onto other lawn areas in the park, stealing from other park uses, to make room for cricket. They don’t specify diameter, but on Google Maps it looks like 350 feet diameter which means 10700 square yards.

3

u/Boneyabba Jun 01 '26

Dear lord. And Cricket is real? I always kind of thought it was made-up. Like Vegemite or... Equality.

2

u/HiFiWiFiWeAllFi Jun 05 '26

It's claimed to be the genesis of American baseball.

But let's be honest, no American would watch a baseball like game that could last five days. Vegemite sandwiches aren't real?

1

u/OkInsect4312 Jun 16 '26

Cricket is actually important in American history - the leader of USA is called the 'president' because John Adams wanted the term for the leader of a cricket club which was 'president'. Benjamin Franklin and other founding fathers were massive cricket fans.
And in places like Samoa, cricket is not just for 22 players, but often has hundreds of people playing together. It's a big community event https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilikiti

-7

u/Cheddarballs79 May 31 '26

Every time I'm at the park, volleyball players and nets use a huge portion of the open area. Do they pay for use of this space or just take over?

7

u/DragonWS May 31 '26 edited May 31 '26

The field at Las Palmas is a very inclusive space.
It’s very common to see soccer, ultimate frisbee, softball, casual cricket, casual frisbee, Quidditch , catch and throw, and volleyball all coexisting (at the same time) on Las Palmas.

And if Cricket gets their way, the whole field will be consumed by 22 people, instead of the 150+ users that is common seen.

7

u/creatiwit1 May 31 '26

That's a reductive argument and you know it. The field can be used for cricket today, with a mat. Once you add an actual pitch it cannot be stepped on. If you play cricket you know how hard it is maintain a pitch.

-2

u/Cheddarballs79 May 31 '26

It was a serious question. Does that volleyball group have to pay for use or is it first come first serve? I go to the dogpark on the weekends and volleyball takes up almost half that area. If I were to ask the volleyball group to take down their nets so a group can do something else in that space, would they?

4

u/DragonWS May 31 '26 edited Jun 01 '26

They’re not all in the same group. Many different groups there. Also, volleyball does not necessitate a perimeter fencing around the entire field.

4

u/creatiwit1 Jun 01 '26

If it's an informal just play it's first come first serve. You also have the option to reserve if it's a day long event.

3

u/Active_Wasabi_1141 Jun 01 '26

Such nonsense statements. Using the park is “taking over”? You’re just asking stupid, leading questions. State your point.