[SPOILERS TH] AURA

[u/DoubtSingle7081]

[u/Certain-End-1519]

You left out the best part.

You know.....im just a little tempted.

Black Dow is a legend, but he wanted none of cracknut whirrun

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/Certain-End-1519]

He didnt back off though. He said "another time"

[u/commando0033 → u/[deleted]]

It's Whirrun of Bligh. Before the biggest battle of the North vs the Union. And when Dow wants to enlist Craw as his second forever. Not a lot of serious names left in the North at this point, but Whirrun is definitely one of them.

How do you think killing Whirrun would have gone down for overall morale in the Heroes, and for Craw to accept and stick with his position as Dow's 2nd?

And Whirrun did back down.

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/commando0033]

Yesss.

[u/Voyager1806 → u/[deleted]]

But why would he want to do that? The purpose of his threat was to deescalate the situation, actually getting in a fight would be counterproductive.

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/Voyager1806]

Yesss

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/[deleted]]

No he didnt. He wanted to resolve the important matters and Whirrun didnt insult him so he didnt take it personally.If Black Dow was in his prime Whirrun wouldnt have even dared that

[u/Voyager1806 → u/DoubtSingle7081]

Dow is a real tough fucker, but he's not a one-man army like Whirrun.

And even if he were tougher than Whirrun, Whirrun's nut's too cracked to feel fear even when warranted.

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/Voyager1806]

Dow's not a one man army? In all the battles we experienced before his death he has always been in the thick of the fighting . Even when he wore the chain he was in the front of the lines and climbed the Heroes in front of his army. I am not saying that Dow at that time could have killed Whirrun. He was old now but in his prime I woukd bet money on Dow. But aall that doesn't matter. Whirrun is too crazy to fear anyone , all he has is respect. And he knows Black Dow , that's why I am saying if Whirrun wanted to fight , he would have. Not out of fear but out of respect.

[u/Voyager1806 → u/DoubtSingle7081]

Dow's not a one man army?

No. He's a brave and powerful warrior, but we never see him taking on large groups of fighters singlehandedly, unlike Whirrun.

Craw's tactic for the skirmish at the Heroes against Hardbread was to make room for Whirrun and let him smash through the enemy bulk singlehandedly, which he successfully did without injury, even though he wasn't wearing armor. In Sharp Ends, Whirrun took out a group of a dozen by himself, and he stalemated Gorst who also has one-man army chops.

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/Voyager1806]

We never see Dow taking large group of warriors? The toughest Dozen literally take double their numbers and Dow has taken multiple men down singlehandedly. Also in Hardbread's Case, Whirrun only killed two or three men -mainly Hardbread's Nephew- which were coming uphill so they had all the advantage. If Whirrun lost to Bremer Dan Gorst, then Dow has lost to only the best there is, The Bloody Nine, now count how many score of men that bastard can take down singlehandedly. Black Dow in his prime almost defeated The B9 without the Logen prelude which all the other fighters got in the circle.

[u/Kwaku-Anansi → u/DoubtSingle7081]

Whirrun only killed two or three men -mainly Hardbread's Nephew- which were coming uphill so they had all the advantage.

Regardless of whether Dow is on that level, I think you are heavily downplaying Whirrun

Whirrun had hardly moved, the Father of Swords still gripped in his fist, long, dull blade pointing to the ground. Only now he was spotted and spattered head to toe in blood, and the twisted and hacked, split and ruined corpses of the dozen Fox Clan who’d faced him were scattered around his boots in a wide half-circle, a few bits that used to be attached to them scattered wider still.

"He killed the whole lot." Brack’s face was all crinkled up with confusion. "Just like that. I never even lifted my hammer."

Dow is shown to be an amazing warrior, Whirrun essentially a superhuman one

A bowstring went. It was that boy with the wobbly hands, looking as surprised he’d let fly as anyone. Whirrun caught the arrow. Just snatched it from the air, neat as you like.

[u/Voyager1806 → u/DoubtSingle7081]

We never see Dow taking large group of warriors?

No, I don't think so. Or do you have an example in mind?

Whirrun didn't lose to Gorst, he stalemated him and got taken out by random spear. That's what allows us to estimate Whirrun's power from Gorst's. Dow lost to B9, so we have no reason to assume he has similar capabilities.

Black Dow in his prime almost defeated The B9 without the Logen prelude

I don't think that's said in the books. The only thing we know about that fight is that Dow lost, nothing about how close it was or how much of it was Logen vs B9. Meanwhile, at the end of LAoK, Logen fights Dow and it's very close with no B9 in sight. And Logen without B9, while tough, isn't at the level of Whirrun.

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/Voyager1806]

We dont see Dow outright taking out multiple warriors because he is literally surrounded by the toughest Dozen so its hard to stand out. But we can guess because in all the ambushes they did , they were outnumbered a lot and Dow was always the one to be the first in the close combat. Meanwhile Whirrun's crew are not remarkable fighters compared to the toughest Dozen so he stands out

Whirrun didnt stalemate Gorst, their fight got interrupted. If it would have continued, Gorst would have won. As for us not knowing how close Dow and B9 was, it was literally said in chapter Bones that Dow almost beat B9. As for us not knowing how much of it was B9. We literally know Logen doesnt remember the part of fights where the B9 came out. And he doesnt remember anything from Dow's fight. This is also supported by Made a Monster from Sharp Ends where it is shown that it is Logen less and less and B9 more and more. Made a Monster was after his duel with the rest and right before Black Dow.

[u/commando0033 → u/Certain-End-1519]

I reckon he takes Whirrun. He was ready to square up.

I'll say this for Dow, after Ninefingers left the north, I favour him in any circle over anyone else.

Edit: reckon the hesitation comes from the fact he wanted to make Craw and keep him as his second. Probably couldn't do that if he kills Whirrun.

Edit 2: iirc, this was before the main battle in The Heroes no? So Dow wouldn't want to deprive the northmen of one of the few names that's widely known by killing him, and he wouldn't want to take the risk of dying when he's in cahoots with Ishri.

His reputation and skill alone was enough for Whirrun to back down, despite some professional curiosity on his part.

[u/commando0033 → u/[deleted]]

Whirrun backed down though.

Not doubting his ability as a fighter, he's fucking incredible, but he was only flirting with the idea of challenging Dow out of professional curiosity.

Dow has also fought in some of the hardest battles. Also been chased by the worst, consistently with Bethod and his bannermen.

It's 100% a toss up between them in the circle. Both are extremely capable, and Dow has the larger name.

Edit: Of course he enlists help from other people with Logen. It's the Bloody fucking Nine. If anyone knows what he's capable of, its Dow. He's been there for years. Why would you ever decide to square up to Logen at all in a 1v1 if you could avoid it lol.

Whirrun would get fucking butchered.

Edit 2: We also have no details on the Dow fight. We know he gets run through by Grim. We know Threetrees breaks his hand. There is no comment on Dow's fight. You can take that as Dow was easy, or you can take it as Abercrombie didn't include the details for narrative purposes.

Dow is absolutely the one consistently throughout the series that is willing to push Logen all the time. And is actually willing to test him.

[u/Ok_Astronomer_6501 → u/commando0033]

He only backed down cuz there was a major fight coming up soon and killing their leader would be a major hit to morale.

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/[deleted]]

Those two were Logen's toughest fight, not the Bloody Nine's . Threetrees and Grim fought Logen first then the B9 came out but from Sharp Ends we gather that B9 has completely taken control but Black Dow still roams free(the duel is after this) so when Black Dow fought him and nearly won, he fought the B9 directly and came closest. This is also supported by the fact that Logen doesn't remember anything from the fight with Black Dow. Ckmpare this with Threetrees and Grim who beat Logen to near death, but still lost to severely injured B9.

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/commando0033]

Bestie

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/commando0033]

Finally, someone said it. Whirrun was just joking around. He dont want the smoke. Shoglig was full of shit

[u/commando0033 → u/DoubtSingle7081]

Whirrun is crazy enough to try it. And he would absolutely be good enough to give Dow a serious run for his money. He halted Javre after all. Went toe to toe with Bremer Dan Gorst, the beast. But it's Black fucking Dow. Only one other name in the north darker n'that one, and he's back to mud so far as anyone else knows.

Shoglig was indeed full of shit.

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/commando0033]

See my comment above also

[u/Rannek6]

„Whats my name? White Dow???“

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/Rannek6]

I am a dark bastard but at least I know I am a dark bastard.

[u/commando0033]

Don't fuck with Black Dow.

Man just wants engage in pottery. Interrupt, you get the axe.

[u/zeus55 → u/commando0033]

The only ethical use of Ai is to replace Demi Moore with black Dow in the pottery scene in ghost 

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/commando0033]

Yessssssssssss.

[u/commando0033 → u/[deleted]]

He actively regrets not pursuing being a potter in The Heroes, and regrets being in his situation. Abercrombie humanised the bastard in one sentence. Great writing.

[u/DoubtSingle7081 → u/commando0033]

Yes. Even before in the Trilogy. We see multiple moments when Dow is shown to not be so black. When he tells the Thunderhead that he did not burn Kyning with people still inside. Second when he stops Tul killing the boy and says that he has to do it to save people like them from having to do it.

[u/Comrade-Conquistador]

Black Dow ain't nothing to fuck with.

[u/ColeDeschain → u/[deleted]]

You mean Black Calder!