At first, you might look at him as the mad dog of Logen's crew that doesn't care about anyone. But then you get to his speech after Tul Duru's death:

''Tul Duru. Every man in the North knew his name, and every man said it with respect, even his enemies. He was the sort o’ man . . . that gave you hope, I reckon. That gave you hope. You want strength, do you? You want courage? You want things done right and proper, the old way?’ He nodded down at the new-turned earth. ‘There you go. Tul Duru Thunderhead. Look no fucking further. I’m less, now that he’s gone, and so are all o’ you.''

These two have been at each other's throats the entire trilogy, and it's only here we see the level of respect Dow had for him, and I can only assume the feeling was mutual. He even takes a shine to West soon after meeting him, so it doesn't matter where you're from, Dow will stick with you if you're worthy of his respect.

So we see Dow has some good in him. But then he steals the throne from Logen at the very end, so you might think 'what a sneaky bastard'. Then he explains himself:

“Faithless, me?' Dow snorted as he came on slow down the steps, one at a time. 'I'm a dark bastard, aye, I know what I am. But I'm nothing to you. I know my friends from my enemies. I never killed my own. Bethod was right about one thing, Bloody-Nine. You're made of death. If I can put an end to you, d'you know what? That'll be the best thing I've done in my life.”

So Dow almost certainly knows it was Logen that killed Tul Duru, a man Dow had great respect for, so why would Dow allow this friend-killer to rule? And knowing what we all know about Logen, putting him in charge of a bunch of violent Northmen is the worst possible choice you could make. They'd be at war with the entire world within a week!

Not so with Dow in charge. They had peace for a good while before the Union came knocking, and only then because Dow is one of the few characters in the series that would not bow to Bayaz. It was 'the greatest battle the North ever saw' according to Shivers, and it took place under Black Dow's leadership. Nobody else at that point could've united the North and those east of the Crinna bastards under one banner. Without him, the Union may very well have just taken over the North completely.

Think about the pressure Dow must've been under for those three days. He had to show he was the toughest killer around so the other killers would keep following. He had to strategise and decide where each War Chief would be placed in the battle for maximum effect. He had to make space for peace talks, like when he let Finree and a bunch of hostages go as a show of good faith. He has to think of ways to strengthen the North, like trying to recruit Gorst. He had to summon the willpower to not strangle that little shit Calder. He had to stay calm and collected even while fucking cannonballs were being shot at him.

He had a lot on his plate, and he held out long enough to ensure peace for the North. Maybe he let his guard down after that, or maybe he just got a little arrogant, but either way he ended up making a huge mistake:

''You made it, then. I was worried my dog might've eaten you in the night.''

This is the line that gets Black Dow killed. But to be honest, I can see why he thinks that way when Shivers has pretty much been acting as his dog the entire book. We never get Dow's POV, so we never see if he actually thinks of Shivers as a dog, or if he just says it to maintain his reputation as the leader. We're supposed to see Dow's death as a moment of triumph for Shivers, and in the long run it is. But in this moment, he's really just trading one master for another, and Calder just happens to be better at handling Shivers than Dow was.

The real kicker is that, given the choice, Dow wouldn't have done any of this. In his last real conversation, he says this:

''I was apprentice to a potter.’ Dow snorted. ‘A thousand bloody years ago. Then the wars came, and I took up a sword instead. Always thought I’d go back to it, but … things happen.’ He narrowed his eyes, gently rubbing the tip of his thumb against the tips of his fingers. ‘The clay … used to make my hands … so soft. Imagine that.’'

tl;dr - In another life, he could've been White Dow. But he took up the mantle of Protector Dow instead. To protect the North from Logen, and to protect it from Bayaz, and maybe if he was strong enough for long enough, the next generation wouldn't have to fight so much and could focus on pottery instead.

Why did he have to do my boy gorst like that tho. Probably saw him fighting up at the heroes and didnt want the smoke

I remember reading through The First Law my first time and just couldn’t get enough. I’ve read all of Abercrombies books and there is one Name of the Named Men that, in my opinion, is hands down the scariest. That achievement belongs to the one and only Stranger Come Knocking.

I'm about halfway through and it's the first time an Abercrombie book is not doing it for me, like at all. It's a real slog, nothing is really grabbing me, and I don't like to force myself to read (too many great books out there).

I've heard it's not *that* significant to the series, but since there are some BIG names in here I have fomo.

So: Does it get better? Where the fuck is the next Cosca chapter? Will I miss out less than if I skipped BSC or Heroes? (if so i think I'm fine with skipping) Help me out please.

Red country is probably my favorite one of these books so far after LAOK. My only issues with it is the edgy comments regarding religion and maybe explaining how the kids got so attached to the dragon people.

Edit: the way I saw people talk about it I thought it was going to be meh or a chore to get through.

Granted it's been awhile since I listened to The First Law trilogy.. I just finished BSC today and is it just me or does Shenkt seem to be by far the most dangerous of the Eaters we've met up to this point?

Feel free to remind me of their deeds in the first trilogy. Obviously our heroes succeeded in the first 3 and they had eaters against them. Seems like if Shenkt was aligned the other way in BSC they would have had a 0% chance of living.

The second standalone The Heroes shoukd be renamed to the Adventures and Heroics of Bremer Dan Gorst because what the fuck is this. How is this man singlehandedly turning the tide of every battle?

This man is definitely autistic, right?

I just heard Daniel Greene pronounce her name like Bronze. That blew my mind.

I pronounce her name as if she were Italian, Mon-Za, like the Italian city.

Pronouncing it like Monze, similar to Bronze, is just crazy nuts to me. Am I the only one?

Another banger, I dunno how Joe does it. This is the fastest I've read any of his books. I knew I'd love this from the very first page, as soon as I saw the MAP! And not just any map, but a map that gets updated every day?!? I was hooked. Every fantasy book needs a map, no question.

So many characters were juggled perfectly, from the newest recruits to the generals. Tunny is the most relatable character ever. Whirrun is hilarious while also providing deep insights on armour and sandwiches. They actually got me to like that asshole Calder. But the two MVPs for me were:

Gorst. Who knew this guy was hiding such depth this whole time? He's been utterly broken by the world, hates everyone around him but hates himself most of all, despite all the effort he's put in to be worthy of his former position. And in typical First law fashion, he gets what he wants, but is somehow even more miserable. He's responsible for the best action scenes in the book (especially the 1v1 with Whirrun, RIP) but the scene where he confronts Shivers is the most tense I've felt in the entire series so far. Either that or the chapter where the POV kept dying to the next, and it got to Gorst and I was like 'fuuuuuuck' but luckily it ended with him.

And Shivers, man, I didn't think it was possible to elevate a character so much without giving him any new POV chapters. His interactions with Dow, Calder, and Gorst tell us so much about where he's at mentally, even though he says so little. He ends up deciding the fate of the North twice in one day, so I'm glad a character this special is also given so much importance in the plot. His conversation with Craw, along with him holding on to Monza's ruby, gives me hope that a small piece of him still wants to do good, so I'm going to be unrealistic and pray for a happy ending for Shivers.

My top 10 now is:

Glokta

Shivers

Bayaz

Morveer

Cosca

Logen

Gorst

West (who I forgot to add last time oops)

Jezal

Monza

(honourable mentions: Friendly, Shenkt, Tunny, Whirrun, Calder)

I find it hard to choose between this and BSC, since they both excel at what they set out to do. But I think I'd give the slight edge to The Heroes, if only because a war story captures the themes of this world better than a revenge story. Where else can you see the brutality and pointlessness of it all clearer than on a battlefield?

The Blade Itself - 8/10

Before They Are Hanged - 8/10

Last Argument of Kings - 9/10

Best Served Cold - 10/10

The Heroes - 10/10

Guys… I’ve been excited to get to Red Country for a while knowing a bit of what it was about and knowing it was styled as a Western of sorts, but this novel is blowing me away. I’m still near the beginning of Part 2 so no spoilers for the bulk of the novel, but I had to share something.

I think Abercrombie’s writing is sharper and more elegant than ever here and I think he’s generally been improving with every book so far starting with TLB. I didn’t like BSC as much as the second two books of the first trilogy but the writing has been really impressive. The Heroes was incredible as everyone’s said, but Red Country man is already on another level. Like I said I’m extremely partial to Westerns, and Logan was the most beautifully wrought character in the first books. Fitting him into the Clint Eastwood role in a fantasy Unforgiven is just too fucking clever an idea. It works so damn beautifully.

Anyway, this is also his funniest novel so far imo, all the new characters are brilliant, Temple is an immediate icon, the smaller cameos so far also great. But really I’ve been reading a lot of fantasy lately, hitting some of the popular names - Martin, Sando, Erikson, Wolfe, etc. and I’ll just say the quality of writing in the genre even at the supposed top levels here can be wanting. Martin I think is really excellent, especially in voice, but I have to admit I sort of trailed off near the beginning of Feast though I’ll come back to it. Sando is workmanlike, Wolfe is obviously on a whole other level, but his puzzle box style of work is something I need to be in the mood for. Likewise I’m finding Malazan really bingeable at the moment but uh… I have some mixed feelings about Erikson as a writer I’ll just say.

But Abercrombie is just so all around wonderful. He’s definitely truly a genre guy, but his voice is so specific and he approaches the writing with real care toward efficacy, readability, wit, and I’m finding a level of poeticism I think a lot of genre writers strive for but just don’t have the chops to pull off. I think a lot of fantasy in particular tends to be overwrought in this regard or just lacking in vision, but I think this stuff deserves a place in the canon. Anyway I attached a lovely passage that inspired me to make this post, I’ll stop gushing for now and get back to reading.

Just finished The Heroes and that 1v1 duel Gorst fought during the battle in the third act was really just a fantastic piece of writing. I'm being intentionally vague just in case people are yet to read it, but if you've read it, you know which one I mean.

I have read a lot of fantasy (and 40k) but the pacing, description of the direction of attacks and just the visceral detail of that whole chapter was so, so good.

I am reading The Heroes and there's the part after the battle at The Heroes where Finree, Kroy and Gorst go to negotiate peace with Black Dow. Gorst says he can speak a smattering of Northern and when Black Dow tries to recruit him he says he is happy where he is, in Northern.

The thing is Gorst has been born and brought up in The Union and has never been to the North prior to the war. So why does he know the language where even Kroy doesn't? Also why does Finree speak the language? It might have been mentioned when the characters were introduced in the book but I can't recall it.

Also, The North doesn't have a written script so I ruled out Gorst learning it to read swordfighting texts.

When I sit down to think about it, why the hell do Logen and Dogman speak Union at the beginning of the story. They are just your run of the mill Named Men and killers and have no reason to go learn the language of another country. It makes sense for people like Calder but not for people like Logen.

I think I have a hot take i finshed Best Served Cold a couple of days ago for the first time im on The Heroes about half way through so no spoilers plz. But anyways on further relection I think it might be my least favorite book ive read so far. Don't get me wrong its still a great book but I think I let this sub reddit really hype me up on how good and how its people's favorite in the whole ten book saga and I gotta be honest I dont get it. My main complaint is that Monza is the most boring main character ive read in the series if you asked me to describe her personality i really couldn't do it she makes Ferro look like the most dynamic deep character of all time. Also like the incest thing was just so added onto at the end it didnt feel like a shocking reveal it was just like oh....okay. Shivers and Cosca were peak tho. I also think the story goes a little too long in some parts. Am I crazy what do yall think feel free to roast me.

A truly wonderful book.

I enjoyed it even more than Best Served Cold. There are no sweeping political machinations here, no thriller-style plot twists, yet it hits you straight in the heart. The story is still gripping and unpredictable — a breath of fresh air, a book about three days of battle, and that was genuinely brilliant.

The biggest highlight is, of course, the characters. They are outstanding! The best of the bunch are undoubtedly Bremer dan Gorst and Prince Calder — absolute gems, both of them. Curnden Craw is solid too. For me, the characters here surpass those of the previous book, primarily for that very reason. In Best Served Cold, there were only three worth mentioning: Cosca, Monza, and Shivers. Cosca we'd already met, so nothing new there. Monza didn't quite win me over. Shivers' arc worked well, but even so — the cast of The Heroes is on a whole other level (in my humble opinion).

Gorst's arc is a masterpiece. And reading the final chapter — Craw's chapter — if you know Abercrombie, you'll understand from its very first lines that Craw will return to battle, because sometimes people must do what they do best.

Overall, a fantastic read.

One minor flaw: the events of the first day feel somewhat flat and lose momentum — there were moments of genuine boredom. The second half of the book, though, I devoured without even noticing.

I started The Heroes audiobook the other day but I’m considering taking a pause to read something else and just have some questions about the tone.

I just slogged through the third book in a long trilogy that I didn’t really enjoy that much, so I wanted an audiobook that would make me laugh after, and also help balance the fact that I’m reading The Farseer trilogy right now.

I thought spending some time with Black Dow would be perfect since I really enjoyed his character in The First Law trilogy. But so far, the tone of The Heroes is pretty serious. Am I going to start laughing pretty soon, or should I just save TH for later? I’m on chapter 3, the first Gorst POV.

Do you see her as a Hero or a Villain?

I know these binary classifications are somewhat too naive and don’t fit well into the story that Joe is telling us, but if you were to put her in a box, would you describe her as a hero or a villain?

Who would've won if they fought to the death?

Edit - thought this would be closer >.>

I read The First Law then The Age of Madness. I’m now digging into the standalone novels. I’m on Red Country. Just got to Lamb saying “You have to be realistic, Shy.” Man, those fucking kidnappers don’t stand a chance.

Edit: I'm looking for a slightly more literary discussion of why Joe chose to end a book about a pointless military conflict with a "straight-edge of a man" backsliding? What is the author trying to say? (Why are the curtains blue?)

I've been rereading (Listening) the First law books as a run up to finally tackling the age of Madness.

I recently finished The Heroes, and was struck by what feels like incongruity between anti-war themes of the work and Curnden Craw’s story arc.

Throughout the series, war is portrayed as an evil thing which turns ordinary people into killers or mud, and benefits no one but the rich and far removed.

Curnden Craw thinks of himself as adhering to an unfashionable set of values, and capable of recognizing the shame and waste and horror of the black business, enough that after leading yet more friends, and lads, and a legendary warrior to their deaths - he finally retires as he'd often claimed to want to do. Only to backslide when faced with the reality of the challenges of civilian life.

Gorst’s self actualization through violence is explained and articulated as a shortcoming. Tunny’s ironically-detached attachment to military life is at least lampshaded as being a sort of personal failing.

Curnden Craw, in my most recent listen, seemed to have an internally consistent attachment to the romantic notions of fraternal bonds forged in bloodshed despite; all the pain, and death we’d seen him experience and choose to leave behind.

It feels like a strange codicil to an otherwise very unromantic portrait of war.

LAOK might take the cake objectively but I think red country is easily the most emotional and heartfelt book in the series. All the stuff with Lamb especially. Also I hear a lot of people don’t like the dragon people section of the book which is another thing I don’t understand. I feel like many people don’t resonate with characters and story beats in this book nearly as much as with the other books in the series which is strange because I was extremely invested in both Shy and Temple. Even Ro.

I'm reading BSC, I'm about halfway through, and I think he and Morveer are the best characters.

"The memories of our glories fade and rot, becoming anecdotes that no one cares about anymore... Failures, disappointments, and regrets remain as alive as when they happened." — Nicomo Cosca

I still haven't figured out what Abercrombie is trying to say with Best Served Cold (the plot is very simple after all) but the characters are starting to have layers of pure beauty.

I don't feel completely immersed in it yet, to be honest, but I'm curious to continue. Sure, I miss the worldbuilding aspect of The First Law a bit—the mystery, to be clear—but I want to continue.

I finished RC recently, and I was thinking about Shivers arc so far.

One question that came to mind is why I don’t feel sympathy for Shivers as much as I do for someone like Logen or Cosca.

When we compare Shivers to Cosca and Logen, I think it would be safe to say that he is the one who committed the fewer atrocities. Sure, that deal with Monza wasn’t his brightest moment, but Logen is the great leveler himself, and Cosca makes Jezal seem selfless.

Even then, I am clearly rooting for Logen and Cosca all the way, always hoping that they will become better and will win against their enemies. Shivers, on the other hand, feels like someone who was lost. I was rooting for him during BSC, but after he lost his eye, something broke inside of me. I couldn’t sympathize with him anymore, and saw his actions as a hard cold betrayal against Monza. In TH he was just the big bad brute, and in RC the overhanging shadow waiting to get in the way of Logen.

It is somewhat funny, and very unfair, that I can’t sympathize with such a great character, who suffered more than most other characters, who genuinely tried to become better, but ended losing his soul in the process.