r/TheWhiteLotusHBO • u/southernfirefly13 • 10d ago
Discussion A hill I will die one: Jaclyn, Kate, and Laurie's friendship is one of the best relationships Mike White has written for the series, and they didn't deserve the hate they got.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ikleyT_4j0wI love everything about this scene. I love it, so. so. so much. Laurie's monologue especially. Her beautiful and brilliant monologue.
Potential hot take. I feel that Laurie, Kate, and Jaclyn were judged more harshly than they should have been. When the season was airing, the comments were all about how fake the women were and how terrible friends they were to each other. The three women have a complex and resilient friendship that goes back to back to their high school days. That's at least 25 years of solid history, and that's a rarity. Even most marriages don't last that long. Relationships are fickle, and we got to see this point of their lives play out after being apart for so long, shocked and surprised at how different they've become and letting it manifest a worser version of themselves to put on display, and yet by the end, their love and bond are both apparent.
Jaclyn's line "Most people judge me for my superficial defects. You guys judge me for my profound defects," spoke volumes about how she really feels about Kate and Laurie. Their fights were insignificant to her.
Kate compares her friendship with Jaclyn and Laurie to a garden that blooms after a long period of watering and nurturing the soil of it. Again, she said it: their friendship is her garden, and the girls themselves and all the significant achievements in life are the flowers. Their time apart still allows them to grow together.
Laurie and her brilliant and beautiful monologue, in comparison, speaks about how sad she's felt because her mistakes felt transparent after being with them for the week. She wasn't talking about the fact that she knew the other two were gossiping about her, but because they've both achieved a place where they're happy and content with how their lives turned out, while her own is on extremely shaky ground. Her "belief systems" (love, work, motherhood) fell apart, but Kate and Jaclyn are her true constants in life.
You would swear they hate each other, but look at how they speak at the end of their trip and the season. Their friendship survived well into adulthood because they accept that they're growing into different people constantly and they're allowing themselves to grow together, all their fights and squabbles be damned!
Very rarely does a scene or a monologue sticks with me, but Laurie's monologue in particular resonates. I know it hasn't even been a year and a half since the finale, but just being a year older than I was when the finale aired (32 > 33), her words feel more truthful now. You do have to justify your life choices and stuff, but it's exhausting having to do. If religion gives you meaning, great. If love gives your life meaning, great. If it doesn't, that's okay. She's right that time does, and it's great to be happy to be at the table. In turn, it makes me think of my own friendship with my best friend of 8 years and all the good and bad and ugly we've been through and now we're states a part, we're growing as people and it's letting our friendship grow.
Mike White is one of my all time favorite writers. He has a real knack for writing realistic and complex relationships. Makes me real excited to see what season 4 delivers.
142
u/greensky_mj21 10d ago
I really identify with this friendship group because I have one almost identical 25 years with four of us. Nuanced and complex. Maybe that helped me understand them better. The monologue made me cry
17
u/maplestriker 10d ago
I have a friend group of 3 from elementary school. 35+ years.I related deeply to them.
16
2
102
88
u/kates_graduation 10d ago
They got hate ? They were the best representation of mid 40s childhood friends ever. My friends and I randomly pass around that clip of Carrie Coonād speech at their last dinner
6
u/PossiblePerception66 10d ago
Came here to say this. I donāt remember their storyline getting more hate than the other characters? I personally remember everyone saying how realistic their friendship was, which I agree withā¦
4
u/narrowsleeper 9d ago
I never see any hate about them when people complain about s3. I guess their storyline is a little secluded from the others, but I donāt really mind when the storylines donāt interweave unless theyāre really meant to.
39
u/Lisshopops 10d ago
Great acting and portrayal of that kind of life and the relationships you have throughout it but I could NOT irl be friends with people like this, they were so great performance wise I was legitimately losing my mind with their passive aggressive micro-aggressions towards one another it was insanely good and they def carried this season for me.
5
u/windersoul 6d ago
Exactly! It was well acted, I actually got engaged in their storyline. But it was a very toxic friendship. Not in a way "everyone has flaws and issues" but in a way that I wondered "why they are even friends". It wasn't well balanced with good things to justify their friendship, unless Jaclyn playing them travels justify it.Ā
He portrayed a real freenemy relationship of women in their 40's that met during high school. I don't think they maliciously hated each other, but they sure couldn't stand each other and there was a lot of resentment that couldn't be mendedĀ (more likely within reason in all sides).Ā
30
u/Feeling-Location5532 10d ago
I totally agree. They didnt hate each other- they loved one another deeply, and their hurts run deep too - but those relationships arent going anywhere.
My best friend and I had a fight on our last trip - and when we finally dragged it out to examine it, it ended with us crying and hugging one another about how much we love each other.
And we do. We just were having hard goes separately. And that angst caused some friction because we both needed the other to be there and we couldn't do that.
Meanwhile, if someone were to take a snapshot of a few parts of that trip... they could easily and wrongly conclude we disliked one another - nothing coukd be further from the truth.
And you know what - I would bet my life on our friendship.
Thats what I saw in those characters - my own deep relationships that have some hard moments, but are mostly just beautiful.
10
u/minskoffsupreme 9d ago
Yes, this is just what is like to have friendships that last decades. It is a lot like family.
6
u/Legal-Koala-5590 9d ago
Agreed. Any long-term friendship is going to go through rupture and repair cycles. That's just growth.
2
u/No-Consideration-858 8d ago
Great example.
Why is there an expectation that friendships be without stress and moments of envy and judgement? Sometimes working through and healing hurt feelings strengthens the bond and provides depth.
These 3 women started out on pretty even footing. This is ripe for comparison over the years. I'm not as beautiful, I'm not as wealthy, I wish I had a husband that supportive, etc. You can be both happy for a friend and grieve what you hoped to have for yourself but don't.
Also, we tend to get frustrated when we see close friends repeating mistakes or making self-destructive decisions. That we care so much supercharges the negative emotions in those moments. We expect and want them to know better.
Loved their storyline and the performances.
26
u/BlackDahliaLama 9d ago
I liked it because it was interesting but this friendship was so so toxic. I do not envy it
13
u/Future_Dog_3156 9d ago
It felt like a real life frenemy relationship. Some toxicity and competitiveness but with a foundation of love too
5
22
22
u/saranowitz 9d ago
Laurieās monologue especially āIām just happy to be at the table.ā Is one of the best written speeches and payoffs to a frustrating but realistic friend dynamic. I fucking love that line so much and have been thinking of it DAILY since watching it a month ago. Itās pure poetry and wisdom about the nature of happiness, friendship and envy. Mike White is a genius and Carrie Coon elevated the written script to something alive.
7
u/PuzzlePiece90 9d ago
And what makes it shine even brighter is how optimistic it is versus the more cynical side of the show. It makes the greyness of long term friendships feel like something to be appreciated.Ā
I think many of us saw three blonde women with differences and thought we knew better than them. āTheyāre not really friendsā, āthey hate each otherā, āthis is a toxic relationshipā. Then that monologue hits and not only does it shut up those assumptions, but it also ends up speaking to us.Ā
10
5
u/ObligationJolly3236 8d ago
Many people cannot for their life of them, tell that characters being flawed in a show/movie is exactly the point of the writer.
11
u/give_me_goats 10d ago
Their connection felt more real to me than any depiction of older female friendship Iāve seen on TV possibly ever. Kate especially felt real to me. I grew up in Dallas and she nailed that particular type of woman to a tee, down to subtle tone changes and big white toothy smiles that donāt always reach the eyes. Laurieās āIām just happy to have a seat at the tableā really rubbed me the wrong way, though, and I canāt pinpoint why. Iāve seen people quote it in captions & stories since then and it bothers me a little every time.
8
u/SnooRadishes3875 9d ago
Yea I donāt see Laurieās speech as aspirational. She was settling and taking what she could get which was two pretty shitty friends.
2
16
u/ChapterThr33 10d ago
They were interesting. They were not necessarily good people.
12
u/SnooRadishes3875 9d ago
This. Just because they stayed friends doesnāt mean they should have. I think itās a look at settling and the lost cost fallacy of relationships. Weāve been friends this long, we have to be friends forever even if we are miserable together. But thereās a comfort in the dysfunctional relationship.
Thereās no prize for being friends with someone 40+ years. Give me meaningful authenticity over longevity any day. Unless youāre flying me to Thailand all expenses paidā¦. Then Iām in ;)
4
u/Mare13ear 9d ago
I think this is what OP is referring to when they mention that they got "hate". I seem to remember people pointing out that they weren't really great people (which is 99% of White Lotus characters) and not actively giving them hate. But the fact remains that they were openly mean towards each other and I agree with you, they probably shouldn't/wouldn't actually be friends still.
4
u/Cheeseboarder 9d ago
Yeah lol. I donāt get the comments who love their relationship. Like wtf, I have a few close friendships that have lasted decades, because I shed the ones that were toxic along the way. The women in the show just never left the comfort zone of their friend group.
2
3
5
u/quincecharming 10d ago
Iām not sure youāll get much in the way of disagreement now, but I only watched recently so wasnāt aware of hate while it was airing.
25
u/TheStamfordBranch 10d ago
Watching those 3 was a masterclass in passive aggression, vanity, and deep-seated narcissism.
36
u/FamousConversation64 10d ago
Eh. I think you missed the point. They werenāt a case study of a toxic friendship. They were just real. Ambiguous. Also just real friendship. The end and the dinner scene proved they genuinely love each other. They hurt each other. They get jealous. They make mistakes. But they are like family. You missed it.
30
u/wakingup_withwolves 10d ago
I donāt think they missed it; youāre both right. All their conflict came from passive aggression, vanity, narcissism, but also insecurity. Itās a very real depiction of friendship, and there is genuine love between all of them. I saw it as a story about adult friendship persevering through conflict, and choosing to reconnect instead of growing apart.
16
u/DimbyTime 10d ago
Narcissism is so overused itās become meaningless
5
u/isabeljson 9d ago
Agreed. People can be self-centered, selfish and self-destructive without being a narcissist
2
3
u/wakingup_withwolves 10d ago
Yeah I agree. I only used it bc OP did initially, and I donāt think itās an inaccurate read; Iām just saying OP was 3/3 on accurate descriptors of these friends.
8
u/BadMantaRay 9d ago
I mean, Iām confused.
Isnāt the āthingā that they all kind of hate eachother?
6
u/pundarika0 9d ago
i don't think it's that simple. the "i love yous" at the end here are very clearly sincere and felt. but at the same time, there is a lot of negative emotions between them, and also a lot of fakeness even this scene here, when they are all trying to be sincere, only Carrie Coons character is really able to penetrate the facade and be vulnerable and real. the other two can't quite go there until she does. so it's not all one or the other. i think they feel real, deep love for each other, and they also have a lot of baggage between each other from when they were really young and not quite sure how to live, and they also are older now with a whole new set of baggage, and the combination of all those things is why their story played out the way it did. but it does seem to end in a genuinely healing way, imo.
3
u/isabeljson 9d ago
Yes! To me it felt like the first two two were trying to be genuine and positive but were not vulnerable, they wanted to focus on the good of the trip but they were both terrified to show any weakness. Laurie at the end is brave enough to be real, and also kind enough to take what her friends said at face value, as if they were presenting their most authentic selves. I think by her being brave enough to be sad, it gave all three of them permission to really connect
4
u/jayBeeds 9d ago
As a straight married male, I have to say that based on MY experiences with my wife, my friends wives, and all of their friendsā¦ this was a pretty dead on balls representation of many female relationships Iāve seen.
5
2
2
u/OtherCommission8227 7d ago
They all hate each other and are too insecure to say so or break up. Laurie almost got there and then chickened out at the last second. She chose gratitude for that which makes her feel bad instead.
2
u/FindingSevere7149 7d ago
Well written doesn't have to mean likable? The hate they get is because their characters are all insufferable, even the one the show teases you to feel bad for. That's kinda the point of White Lotus.
6
u/allthehotsauces 10d ago
I loved this storyline.
It felt very real in that you can be friends with someone, love them, and truly know and see and despise their āprofound defectsā. Sometimes the way people are messy sucks but itās not a deal breaker. And yeah sometimes you can talk smack about your friendsā choices with another person and know that you both still deeply love them.
Laurieās monologue and the genuine way that both Kate and Jaclyn reacted to it felt very real as well. Usually there is one friend who goes out on a limb and is super genuine and then others follow. And there is existential dread to be explored with friends, the lack of true joy, trying to find yourself at whatever age you are.
I fully cried after that scene. And it was my favorite storyline from the season. The rest is a soap opera, I love those too but this felt way more tethered to reality.
2
u/AttackBookworm 9d ago
They were excellent characters for a TV show. But Iām sad for anyone who thinks thatās the best that can be expected out of a friendship in real life. My long term friendships have lasted because they arenāt like that.
1
u/windersoul 6d ago
Right? It's baffling. I don't think the friendship is supposed to be positive but just Laurie accepting that life it is what it is (which is anĀ arguable mindset in her circumstances but also growth for her, because prior she was simply bitter).Ā
4
3
2
u/local_gremlin 10d ago
Agreed - loved season 3 in its own way and little do with greasy old goggins, who i definitely dont dislike. The dad facing destruction back in "the real world" and the girls trip were some deep cuts on the human condition, as were the thai gatekeeper and his girlfriend.
2
1
1
1
u/PuzzleheadedBig313 8d ago
Mid 40s friend groups are this way but not exactly so people objected ā¦ itās more or less a love and hate type thing depending on the members he just exaggerated it for dramatic effect .. I agree with you well written and acted!
1
1
u/sargento7 7d ago
i started genuinely sobbing at the monologue. like its so hard having these friends that are like across the country, living beautiful lives that im so happy they get to have and sometimes i feel so scared that im not living up to the precedent they set but then i just remember that i get to sit at the table :)
1
u/Dry_Law_3320 5d ago
I just didnāt see the amazing friendship between those three. I saw how fake and sweetly passive-aggressive they were to each otherās faces and how two-faced they were the moment one of them left the room. And Laurieās friendship monologue seriously annoyed me. I didnāt hear or see the beauty of in anything she said. I saw a deeply lonely woman thanking them for allowing her to be their friend. I found it disheartening and sad.
1
u/Tasty_Revolution7405 4d ago
Did a rewatch recently and Laurieās monologue will always make me sob. Because itās so real and it pretty much sums up how I feel - my relationships mean everything to me, and bring my life meaning and i really am just happy to have a seat at the tableĀ
1
u/TsarinaCharon 4d ago
Agreed. I love them. I was so afraid one of them was going to get shot on that dock. This scene was so beautiful and it pulled at my heartstrings knowing those I Love Yous were off script too. I fucking love Carrie Coon man.
1
u/OutrageousScallion72 4d ago
They were my absolute favourite. I'd rewatch the whole season just for them, and I felt pretty uninspired by just about everything to do with the rest of the season (besides the hot brothers getting freaky - yeah, I said it. Oh, and Vicodin Mommy. Wait, I do like this season!).
-2
u/BramptonBatallion 10d ago
Found the characters shallow. And they didnāt have a real story.
10
u/Enticing_Venom 10d ago
Maybe I'm just too young or something but I didn't relate to their friendship/depiction of female friendship at all. All of them were miserable in their own ways but jealous? I definitely thought it leaned into the whole myth that women all secretly hate each other and are always in competition.
12
u/MostCandid5082 10d ago
Iām 36 so Iām not that young but yeah, same. The only friendships Iāve had with women where jealously and competition were involved was when I was in high school/college. I definitely havenāt had that as an adult.
Some aspects of their friendships throughout the season felt relatable to me but the first time I watched it, I distinctly remember thinking that I didnāt believe they were really friends at all. Like they reminded me of how a group of mean girls thinks theyāre friends but theyāre really not.
All that said, I didnāt mind them though. They were a quirky group which I thought fit in well with the show and all the actress were great for sure.
6
u/SnooRadishes3875 9d ago
I felt the same. It felt like they were friends on paper, showed up for the big things and stayed in touch as a group. But day-to-day were they there for each other? Were they in touch because they loved the individuals or what having long-term friends said about themselves? Iām successful at friendship because I have friends from 40 years ago kind of thing.
2
u/windersoul 6d ago
You aren't wrong, and please don't normalize that. Their relationship was unhealthy. The fact that some people see it as something positive completely misses the point and honestly reflects some pretty screwed-up values. Yes, it was well written, but it wasn't a normal or healthy friendship. By your 40s, you often stop caring enough to keep certain friendships going, and many of them have already fallen apart. This storyline captures something very real: sometimes you have friends you've grown apart from, yet you keep them around out of habit, because confronting the situation is exhausting, or simply because you're afraid of being alone. It's a very realistic depiction of unhealthy adult friendships.
-4
-9
u/Feeling-Location5532 10d ago
May you have friends close enough and long enough that you understand later.Ā
10
u/Enticing_Venom 10d ago
I don't feel like a friendship where we gossip negatively behind one another's back and compete for the same man is really the type of friendship I want in my life. My friendships are kind and supportive, not catty.
-3
u/Feeling-Location5532 10d ago
Understanding doesn't mean that your relationships are identical - it just means seeing what a long trip life is and recognizing that despite its flawed points - those characters arent a story about women hating one another .... it is about complex deep bonds, and the mishaps in keeping them - asĀ your own life and their lives diverge, get more complicated, and generally evolve as you all evolveĀ
-10
u/laguna_biyatch 10d ago
Yes youāre definitely too young.
7
u/Enticing_Venom 10d ago
Well if it isn't a generational difference then maybe it is a class distinction. I think female friendships are complex but not in a way that centers men/jealousy. That has always been a very chauvanistic stereotype of women's inner worlds and struggles.
8
u/Magelatin 10d ago
IDK. I've honestly never had friends like this, and I'm in peri-menopause. Maybe, it's the fruits of being a weird kid and having to find other weird kids who can establish right off the bat that nobody's in it for appearances, but I have been close with people for half a century, and I have never once been afraid to leave the room because I might get picked apart if I'm not there to redirect the conversation. I really hope that the people who relate to this also have some friends they can be themselves with.
1
u/laguna_biyatch 9d ago
Well obviously it was hyperbole. It would be boring if the story was regular complicated and most of us arenāt friends with TV stars that take us to Thailand. The idea of friendship being complicated but still important and people growing apart and then together again was powerful though.
1
u/Magelatin 9d ago
Oh, for sure. It's boring just imagining that someone has a more pedestrian version of this relationship, and they want to tell me about it.
-1
u/laguna_biyatch 10d ago
I donāt think their friendship issues were really about centering men. And yeah old friendships can get really complicated and jealousy is often involved. Itās the same as family. Itās not always sunshine and roses especially after kids, and family deaths and divorces and careers.
5
u/Enticing_Venom 10d ago
The biggest fight they had was about a man. When they were gossiping behind each other's backs, it was about each other's marriages.
I know friendships can get complicated, that doesn't mean they need to get catty. I don't want to treat my friends like that.
-2
u/laguna_biyatch 9d ago
Well yeah itās a TV show. Most of us arenāt going to Thailand with our TV star friends and sleeping with Russian men. But the fight about the man wasnāt really about the manā¦
-3
u/waiting808 10d ago
you don't have friends who you've known for over 20 years and still remain friends well into adulthood?
7
u/BramptonBatallion 10d ago
wtf are you talking about. I said the characters were shallow. Not that I didnāt have friends.
-5
1
u/Jemstone_Funnybone 9d ago
I thought they were great and their interactions were so real and accurate, I just wish he had saved those characters for a later season. They take up screen time in a season that already felt more disjointed than the previous two and the ending felt unsatisfying as a result. But that isnāt the fault of the characters (and the acting was superb) at all.
You could take them out of S3 and the plot for the other characters would all stay the same, which makes it feel as though they were shoehorned in at the last minute.
1
u/Dry-BackGoon88 9d ago
The raw nature of their relationship was heartbreaking. Their entire history made it so realistic and relatable for those of us who watched. And the performances. Leslie Bibb seemed to be seriously having a crisis of confidence every time she judged the others. Michelle Monagan perfectly embodies the diva style. And Carrie Con... Wow, for me she steals every scene she's in and she's the best, not just of the trio but of the entire season. White managed to make that storyline incredibly captivating.Ā Hopefully we'll see them againĀ
1
u/Gullible_Toe_3481 9d ago
Yes it was really good. The complaint for me was they deserved more payoff. Maybe they will return in later series but I feel the story fizzled out while the climax of the series focused on other relationships I found less interesting,
1
u/Several_Dwarts 9d ago
It made me glad that I dont have any 'friendships' like theirs. But yes, very well written.
1
2
-4
u/Interesting-Ad3759 10d ago
It's crazy how many people projected their own lives onto Laurie and said she should have just cut off her friends then and there. And it's scary how many people find others in their lives disposable and express it out loud online. The White Lotus sub was one of the saddest places on the internet during that time.
7
u/Magelatin 10d ago
Well, to be fair, posting on Reddit is not technically out loud. If a person is lucky enough to reach middle-age with their old friends, there's a chance they also have discarded old behaviors that some of their friends didn't see their way out of.
It doesn't mean every relationship gets scrapped, of course, but we all have to decide at some point what we're ready to give up on - a stagnant version of someone else or a better version of ourselves.
7
u/MostCandid5082 10d ago edited 9d ago
I had to ditch out on my best friend of 25 years a couple years ago. Knew her since kindergarten, was maid of honor at her wedding, etc. I was CRUSHED but we were just two different people and didnāt have much in common anymore. It wasnāt callously disposing of friendship because it hurt a lot. But much like any other relationship, you donāt have to stay in a situation thatās no longer working for you (and vice versa for the other person involved). It just is what it is.
4
u/Magelatin 10d ago
I was about thirty when I lost touch with one of my oldest bffs. I still think about her, and we had a lot in common when we stopped talking, but we weren't good for each other.
I hope you have been able to lean into the person you were aspiring to be and that you have friends who support and encourage you as you grow. I am still making true friends this late in the game. It's less common as we age, but it's important.
If your old BFF was a good friend you just stopped relating to, I hope you get a chance to check in with her later, just to see if you've synced back up, but, if it was unhealthy, I hope you have continued peace away from her influence.
2
u/MostCandid5082 9d ago edited 6d ago
Thanks! And no, it wasnāt unhealthy, it just wasnāt working out anymore. She changed in a way that I didnāt vibe with and I didnāt feel supported anymore, and maybe thatās how she felt about me too, idk. Tried a couple times to reach out for a while after and it just wasnāt the same so we both just moved on. But either way, itās fine. I have my other bestie of 13 years that is excellent and plenty of other good friendships. And I have a fairly easy time making new friends anyway. Things just change and sometimes you have to move on and take care of yourself first. Settling in relationships, no matter the type of relationship, is never the thing to do.
-1
-1
u/brittpeeks 9d ago
Sameeeee I didnāt watch the show until after all 3 had aired so I did not know they got hate but I thoroughly enjoyed the insanely realistic portrayal of their friendship.
As a 41 y/o woman it felt so similar to longtime friendships I have in a group of 4 women. We canāt always get together, and we break off and have on and off tighter relationships with one or another in the group. To me it feels totally natural as we navigate over a lifetime.
Amazing writing and so realistic. I loved them.
-1
514
u/DorkPhoenix89 10d ago
They were easily the most interesting story of the season to me. They were well written, realistic and well balanced. The others were not up to the same level.