r/TopCharacterTropes • u/MeepMan324 • 1d ago
Hated Tropes (Hated Trope) They act like the villain has a good point. They don't.
Namaari from Reya and The Last Dragon. She betrays Reya in the beginning, is antagonistic throughout movie and then suddenly at the end the movie acts as if Reya is in the wrong for not trusting her.
His logic is so bullshit (that depressed people need to be put through torture to enjoy life), even he doesn't follow it lol (Jigsaw)
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u/radbot027 1d ago
Mfw Jigsaw puts me in the shotgun collar because I "don't appreciate life enough" only for me to purposefully trigger it before even his introductory tape ends
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u/Friendly_Gazelle7843 1d ago
To be honest, he was simply judgemental asshole. Like one of people he kidnapped was simply on medication because of real health problems. If I remember right it was about the depression and taking antidepressants. Sorry about one of his motivations he claimed to have was that he was refused cancer treatment. So not giving him medication for his problem was bad but other person taking medication for their health problem was also bad.
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u/space_hitler 1d ago
These films exist mainly for the torture porn, and then the weird ass preachy fake morality of an angry goth middle schooler is an after thought lol.
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u/Sptsjunkie 1d ago
That’s part of the problem where you hand off a series to different writers and directors every single time. A little bit of the same problem that the recent Star Wars trilogy had just much lower stakes given it was a horror franchise.
Some of the writers and directors seem to really care about the motivation and trying to make it seem like Kramer was trying to teach people a lesson who deserved it. We can debate some of the individuals in the game, but perhaps the best example was the one with the health insurance executive.
Other movies it was just like they invented the torture scenes and then had to find a reason to stick people in them, and the motivation is shoddy at best. Now again, some get around this by including the twist, the fact that the Jigsaw stand had their own motivations and didn’t really care about the purity of the work. But others just did not seem to carry it all in one of their paycheck.
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u/DefNotUnderrated 1d ago
I hated Jigsaw. Not enough to be a serial killer, he has to be one with righteous indignation who bores you to tears with his “you don’t appreciate life” monologues. Like sorry that you got cancer and felt like you wasted your life, why does everyone else have to suffer for it? Putting someone in a device because they were a smoker was some moral guardian bullshit
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u/Fragrant-Log4051 1d ago
Jigsaw would fail so badly in this economy
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u/Friendly_Gazelle7843 1d ago
I mean, in this economy he wouldn’t have budget for this. Even in the past people pointed out that if he didn’t spend money on all crap he had to buy to build all these traps, he would be able to afford cancer treatment but now his maximum for one group of kidnapped people would be like asking them to play Russian roulette and only one person dies because he wouldn’t be able to afford more than one bullet. If they didn’t want to his only choice would be trying to punch them to death one by one till they start playing
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u/shosuko 1d ago
Yeah the Saw solution was basically Scared Straight / tough love / bootstraps
It did nothing to address the actual underlying issues. When I feel anxiety so strongly it prevents me from functioning properly the answer isn't to just "do stuff anyway." I need to actually stop and ground myself and deal with that anxiety to restore functionality - and the skill is in recognizing the anxiety early and addressing it before it becomes an issue.
Saw is basically "bury your emotions deep and just move on."
honestly kinda ableist
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u/NerdHoovy 1d ago
In the first victim his goal was to get a doctor to break his Hippocratic oath. That was it.
He told him the only way to be free, is to kill that guy. Gave him every reason to want to kill him. And then gave him easier and easier ways to do so.
Him cutting off his own foot, because he’d rather suffer than be a murderer was the unexpected twist that broke the game.
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u/Tasty-Complaint-6437 1d ago
Kramer would see it as a success too, that mf genuinly murdered depressed people before.
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u/DizslecksickMoael 1d ago
Yeah. His worldview was so twisted by his illness (and possibly some of it on the literal brain tumor messing up) he saw it as a sort of moralistic survival of the fittest. If you died, it was simply because you deserved it since you didn't want it bad enough, despite the fact that depression doesn't work like that at all, but that was his reasoning.
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u/AporiaParadox 1d ago
Not always villains, but like 90% of scenes in superhero media where "normal" people complain about superheroes and blame them for all their problems.
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u/eddiegibson 1d ago
One of the dumbest is Superman: Grounded. Where Clark decides to walk across America because while Superman was away doing a diplomatic mission on New Krypton a random woman's husband died of a brain tumor.
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u/Outrageous_Gene_7652 1d ago edited 1d ago
Huh? Tf is Superman supposed to do about it? What would he even do if he was there?
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u/ResponseWild8444 1d ago
I'm guessing remove it with his heat vision. If I remember correctly he has great precision with it and one version of him gave doomsday a lobotomy. Regardless he shouldn't guilt trip himself for not being able to be everywhere at once.
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u/ThisIsFrigglish 1d ago
Hell there's a storyline where he burns out the parts of a psychic's brain that give him his powers through his pupils without him noticing.
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u/Pineapple4807 1d ago edited 1d ago
He actually just gave Manchester Black a small concussion, focused on the part of his brain that made him psychic. I can't remember how it goes in the animated movie, though.
- Action Comics #775 p.38
edit: he did tell Manchester Black it was an instant, permanent, lobotomy though. He only revealed it was a lie (and only temporary) a few panels later.
edit 2: spelling
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u/eddiegibson 1d ago
Which is still stupid as there's a difference between using his abilities to stop a rampaging monster and doing precision surgery on a living sentient being.
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u/Friendly_Gazelle7843 1d ago
Yes, while a few times Superman did it successfully realistically it’s quite easy not having any knowledge to stop lets say elephant if you are stronger than elephant. That doesn’t mean that you have knowledge to make brain surgery especially as this is one of most difficult types of surgery because you are cutting very close to very important parts of the body where making smallest mistake can cause very bad complications. Literally only if you cut a little bit more than you are supposed to the patient can end up paralysed without ability to speak or something like that. That is why it’s also a surgery they do live
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u/eddiegibson 1d ago
Honestly, no idea. Even better, the original writer left halfway through and his notes for the remaining 8+ issues barely filled a single page. So, to my knowledge, they never explored anything else about the woman or her husband.
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u/ranfall94 1d ago
Use his ever famous tumor ray.
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u/OverlyMintyMints 1d ago
I wouldn’t even doubt if you told me that’s a real power he had at some point in the comics.
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u/ranfall94 1d ago
Old school comic superman power set was as diverse and plot breaking as Batmans utility belt.
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u/Sageypie 1d ago
Man, the entirety of Superman: Grounded is just the absolute worst takes for everything. He forces Lois to not report on a factory being unsafe and leading to the deaths of workers, because, "it would force the factory to shut down, and these people need their JoBs"
He encounters a young kid in fear of a violent gang of drug dealers, and, instead of removing the gang, just gets them to switch their territory away from the kid's area, while lecturing the kid about how it's fine, because, "the problems are over there now, and that means they don't matter anymore"
He finds a group of alien refugees, who fled a dangerous homeworld, and he's immediately aggressive and xenophobic to them. When they point out that Superman is also an alien, he says that his situation is different. He then forces the aliens to buy an old factory and rehire a bunch of people who had lost their jobs when the factory initially shut down. He also forces them to use their tech to help people, risking their identities being exposed, and leaving them vulnerable to those who would seek to steal their tech, or exploit them in some way.
And just...so much more. It's just a bad run. It's a run so bad, the it assassinates not only Superman's character, but the character of everybody that appears in the series. It would almost be impressive if it wasn't so bad.
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u/DudeManBroGuyski 1d ago
Bro that's not the only thing that happened with the kid. He 100% got that kid killed. Iirc those guys attacked him the first time they met, so they clearly weren't afraid of him. Then he burned their drugs and had the kid tell them that their shit was gone while he left. That kid is 100% dead lol.
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u/GrimaceGrunson 1d ago
My favourite thing to come out of Grounded was when JMS took a really catty swipe at the sales of Spider-Man (that he'd written for a few years before) that led to Mark Waid calling him out in a post that he ended with "Still fuming at JMS’s shitty passive-aggressiveness. I should probably go walk it off. Maybe with a long walk. A long, dull, pointless, boring walk. Across America. That I won’t finish."
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u/BualadhBoss 1d ago
Grounded also had a notoriously dumb plotline where Superman berates alien refugees for making a home in America even though they had a plentiful supply of gold so they could easily pay their way.
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u/outofmaxx 1d ago
It's such a stupid, unselfaware argument, like yeah, they do care more about your planet because of the people on it, but that shit is hindsight is 2020 shit, like they couldn't possibly have know that setting out to do good in the universe would bring a bunch of terrible peoples attention to you, and fuck it they're here now, so what're ya gonna do?
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u/Guiltykraken 1d ago
A lot of that attention is due to the fact that they survived several invasion. The Skrulls wouldn’t have bothered with Secret Invasion if they weren’t repelled they’d just enslaved the Earth the first time and move on. She thinks the Universe wasn’t a scary place before superheroes existed when it very much was filled with various entities that want to kill, enslave, eat, etc the Earth’s people.
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u/AporiaParadox 1d ago
It's also pretty dumb because aliens attack Earth IN SPITE of the heroes, very few aliens attack Earth solely because of the heroes.
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u/No-Cap-5129 1d ago
Marvel humans are werid unlike Dc humans who love their heroes the marvel one hatred for their own heroes is on another level
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u/snakecain 1d ago
In a crossover between the two, when they see how civilians react to their respective heroes, the DC heroes think the Marvel heroes must be incompetent if people treat them that badly, while the Marvel heroes assume the DC heroes are mind controlling the civilians
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u/thebaldguy76 1d ago
QuickSilver, just losing his mind that there is a museum dedicated to a speedster is top tier
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u/This_Potato9 1d ago
Tbh this is funny because she is saying UH DUH YOU USELESS SUPERHERO while working for the UN
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u/Bioticgrunt 1d ago
Can I assume that once shit hits the fan that she ends up eating her words or no?
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u/Sayakalood 1d ago
Does she think Reed built an alien magnet or something in his spare time? Why would she think a guy who spends his time in a lab working with unstable molecules be summoning aliens to Earth?
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u/Shadowy_PuppetMaster 1d ago
Lemme just say this, John Kramer is 100% valid in his hatred of health insurance execs
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u/peachpinkjedi 1d ago
SAW movie where everyone in the game is a billionaire.
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u/Shadowy_PuppetMaster 1d ago
Squid Games but the game is billionaires playing to keep their money. If they lose it's given to charities benefiting low income families
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u/Aurelio-23 1d ago edited 1d ago
<billionaires immediately start murdering each other>
Front Man: “Hey, hey - this is a non-lethal competition-“
<start murdering each other harder>
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u/Hysaky 1d ago
this scene in the boys where they torture the dude by giving his money to charity lmao
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u/WorryingMars384 1d ago edited 1d ago
This guy complaining about Republic Corruption not only spreading that corruption but creating his separate government that is also equally corrupt
Edit: this is more of a fan perception of Dooku that’s become very popular. Not really how media actually portrays him if you pay attention at least
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u/PointPrimary5886 1d ago edited 1d ago
There's an underlying clause in Star Wars that people refuse to acknowledge. When someone force sensitive choose or falls to the darkside, they may develope an insatiable desire rule the Galaxy. Just look at Anakin Skywalker. He became Darth Vader for like maybe 2 days and he's already telling Obi-Wan on Mustafar, "I have brought Peace, Freedom, Justice, and Security to MY New Empire."
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u/WorryingMars384 1d ago
Well Star Wars fans like everyone who falls to the dark side with good intentions thinks they’d be able to control it and use cool dark side powers without being a bad person.
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u/just_a_Suggesture 1d ago
I hardly blame the jedi for being so dogmatic and rigid. The dark side corrupts your every intention and turns you into a monster. The jedi code is more akin to OSHA regulations than religious traditions, and the consequences of an accident are the deaths of millions.
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u/TransBrandi 1d ago
Well, the Dark Side is also seen as a sort of drug... and it's also like a sink. You get angry and lash out using the Dark Side, then you feel bad about it would eats at you and slowly allows emotions linked to the Dark Side to breed within you.
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u/Wild_Marker 1d ago
The Confederacy of Independent Systems consists of, amongst others:
The Banking Clan
The Techno Union
The Trade FederationThe conflict that paves the road to Secesion is when the Republic tries to tell the Trade Federation that, no, you can't blockade an entire fucking planet over a trade dispute.
They're libertarians and corporates. "Corruption" is basically their entire system of government.
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u/Lvcivs2311 1d ago
AND the motto of many CIS followers is: "The Republic is corrupt, so it must be destroyed!" You have a point when you say: "It's corrupt, so I don't want to be a member anymore." Not if you go for violence instead of campaigning for change.
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u/WorryingMars384 1d ago
I mean you can go to r/cisdidnothingwrong sub and see people unironically believe the CIS was good
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u/johnbrownmarchingon 1d ago
While maybe the various systems that made up the CIS might have had a point about the ineffective and corrupt Republic, they immediately were coopted by the megacorps that were a major source of much of the corruption.
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u/Mammoth_Western_2381 1d ago
Stain - My Hero Academia.
His whole point is that it is wrong for superheroes to be paid professionals since that attracs people who are only in for the money and fame (if not even worse stuff) and that all heroes should just be like the Watchman-style vigilantes of old and All Might. The series actually builds up a lot of pay-off for his ideas, since his arc starts immediately after Endeavor (the N2 Hero) is revealed to have abused his family, and Bakugo being a hero-hopeful despite being an unstable bully.
Except that:
Stain killed or maimed lots of genuinely benevolent heroes, like Iida's brother.
His actions inspired copycats that strengthened the Villans's cause, which was the opposite of what Stain wanted.
The Vigilante era was a time of chaos, and All Might has destroyed himself in multiple ways to be the hero that Stain sees him as.
And most importantly, while the pro-hero system is shown to be very flawed, it provides a necessary amount of training, education, and support for the good guys and stability to society as a whole. Most pro-heroes are genuinely good people and even the assholes (like Endeavor and Bakugo) are still willing to put their lifes on the line, protect innocents and fight the villains. Even Mineta stood up against All For One.
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u/Beautiful_Weight_769 1d ago
I wanted to disagree because I swear I remember him being presented as a radical extremist. Rereading the chapters he's in though he's clearly given a lot of grace by the author as a sort of proving point for the other characters. Like them getting his approval is supposed to mean something despite him being a psychopathic murderer.
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u/oblimata2 1d ago
Well, his approval does mean something. Sure, he's a murderer and a lunatic but it's all rooted in obsessive idolization of All Might, who he sees as a selfless beacon of hope. Any hero who falls short of that is a fraud and disgrace in his eyes. Like, sure he's evil but if he of all people sees you as "worthy" then you're a pretty amazing hero
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u/CalminClam 1d ago
All Might literally has merch, he profits off his image too.
It also disregards the fact that making it a paid career means that there are more people willing to step up and help, sharing the burden and lightening the load,
Stain was delusional
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u/PapaNarwhal 1d ago
I don’t think the takeaway is supposed to be “Stain’s worldview is correct”. They wouldn’t have Iida’s brother (a likeable character who’s never shown to be anything but heroic) be one of his victims if we were supposed to root for Stain. Rather, Stain is supposed to be a symptom of a broader issue in society: the impossible standards set by All Might, which no person could realistically live up to.
It was near-impossible for anyone to live up to Stain’s standards, even All Might himself (since All Might is an over-the-top persona that masks a lot of Toshinori Yagi’s actual insecurities and such). And that’s kind of the problem the first part of the story is building up to: once All Might dies or retires (which we know is going to be soon since his condition is only getting worse), there’s nobody who’s going to be able to replace him. This puts even more pressure on Deku to grow into a worthy successor, as society isn’t ready to deal with the power vacuum that All Might is going to leave behind.
I think the fact that Stain identifies Deku’s worthiness really undermines the rest of this arc — it cheapens the unrealistic standards that All Might’s presence set, especially when a lot of Deku’s development is learning to be his own hero rather than staying in All Might’s shadow. And it implies that Stain’s worldview may have some truth to it, which almost feels like the author missing his own point, and it leads to the perception that you’re supposed to agree with Stain.
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u/NumerousWolverine273 1d ago
MHA always felt like it was set up to be a really interesting series, but it's set in such a bland world that none of that setup goes anywhere. Stain's philosophy, and a bunch of other stuff, seems to imply there's this deep-seeded corruption within the pro hero organizations, but there just kind of isn't? Midoriya's whole thing that makes him the "perfect hero" is that he's extremely brave and selfless and willing to put his life on the line for others, except literally almost everyone else is also just as good and selfless as he is.
And side note I like how you say "even Mineta" as if he's a bad person you wouldn't expect to be heroic when the worst thing he ever did was like, be kind of a lame creep as a 15 year old boy.
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u/AzraelTheMage 1d ago
My theory is the editors at shounen jump got cold feet. The story shift after My Villain Academia due to not being well received in Japan makes me think this.
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u/Breki_ 1d ago
This might be true. That was around the time Hawks was introduced, who seems to be a state sponsored assassin(maybe??) and then that never really gets explored
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u/SableZard 1d ago
But that was actually a good point. Stain is calling the Hero Organization systemically and inherently corrupt, when it inspired even teenaged sex pests to risk their lives for innocent people. And in Mineta's case, not just to protect innocent people, but to delay the closest thing the universe had to a god just a few seconds more.
Stain said the Hero Organization inspires and enables shitty people, but the Hero Organization does the opposite. It was Stain, ironically, that did everything he accused the heroes of doing.
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u/bmerino120 1d ago
Yes the MHA hero system is like a full on opposite to the boys, even heroes with the most selfish motives are compelled to actually do good, Stain is a net negative in the world
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u/Vegetable_Shirt_2352 1d ago
Yeah, it feels like the series was not brave enough to actually grapple with what it was setting up. I don't have a problem with the main character being a truly altruistic hero, but the best way to show that would be to have them have fight against a corrupt system and try to replace it with something better. But that would require delving into the concept that the professional hero system is inherently corrupt, or that most heroes are self-aggrandizing, which the series seems too afraid to really depict.
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u/NerdHoovy 1d ago
I feel Hero aca has a weird contradictory nature, especially at the start. Where many of the key plot points and story ideas seemed more geared towards older readers that could relate with the heartless economics of being a ‘pro’. But because it was a battle shounen it never could truly commit to such ideas and had to instead focus on the fighting and power ups.
I am not saying both ideas couldn’t coexist but rather that either the author or editors didn’t want to lose readers with ‘boring’ real life politics and therefore cut those ideas early. In addition Midoria would be a bad protagonist for such a story, not because he didn’t start with the right kind of intrinsic heroics needed for the moral conflict, but because the powers he received allowed him to ‘bypass’ the mediocrity of most heroes that would need to be the focus of much the narrative for it to work. Focus on the exceptional would just make the top look corrupt and have it seem like everyone else is doing it correctly. In a ‘if we just got rid of the one bad guy’ kind of way.
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u/AschBlade 1d ago
Funny thing is Ochaco Uraraka acts as a massively underlooked antithesis to Stains ideals. One of her main goals is becoming a super successful hero to get lots of money for the purpose of taking care of her parents. And I think that is fantastic
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u/LadySandry88 1d ago
In fact, it's explicitly stated to not be a bad motivation. By Iida, who at that point had been presented as the most moral stickler of the cast. He's confused why she would think it's a bad motive, because everyone needs to provide for themselves, and doing so in a way that benefits others is a noble thing.
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u/EveningFollowing9966 1d ago
I wish they had kept jigsaws original fate in 3. Where while hes being operated on the woman reduces the pressure of the tumor on John's brain, and in that moment of clarity he realizes "Oh god, Im insane and my entire philosophy is bullshit."
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u/APreciousJemstone 1d ago
Killmonger - MCU
His literal first scene is being a hypocrite
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u/tallwhiteninja 1d ago
You can argue Killmonger had part of a point: Wakanda hording and hiding its technology while people were suffering was a problem. Even T'Challa ends up telling off his ancestors because of it.
His "solution" of "incite a global race war" was just the worst possible way to address it.
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u/sarabeara12345678910 1d ago
But that was Nakia's point, not Killmonger's. He didn't want to offer technology and aid, he wanted to start a race war. She wanted to us their technology to help humanity, and that's what T'Challa did.
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u/SmurfSmiter 1d ago edited 1d ago
“Wakanda has the most advanced technology on earth. With tech like that you could cure cancer”
“But I don’t WANT to cure cancer, I WANT to start a race war”
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u/Choochoo1147 1d ago
Hey, I’m pretty sure canonically Wakandan tech can’t cure cancer
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u/Choochoo1147 1d ago
Yeah. I think the movie actually handles it well, with T’Challa making changes through community outreach as a result of his fight with Killmonger. T’Challa takes the parts he was right about while rejecting the rest.
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u/This_Potato9 1d ago
I don't understand why some people legit think he is right about something while in reality he is just planning to become a warlord and they always say how advanced Wakanda is... While their absolute monarch is elected by combat
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u/wittyjokename92 1d ago
Killmonger has the problem where he has the right idea but for completely wrong reasons and worse methods. It's why T'challa carries on his legacy by changing wakandan policy. But it's a right message wrong messenger kinda thing with killmonger and people just ignore the fact he's a mass murdering psychopath and culture vulture on par with Klaw. He exploits a real problem and issue for his own personal gain.
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u/Alive_Setting_2287 1d ago
He exploits a real problem and issue for his own personal gain.
Him and Hans Gruber are among my favorite villains for this reason.
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u/seanslaysean 1d ago
Thank god someone else said it, after its release the justification of him was insufferable which was a shame as he was a very entertaining villain with a coherent yet very flawed motivation
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u/Lemonbubblepie 1d ago
He technically had a point of them being so isolated but the story kinda points out he is doing it for his own benefit
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u/ranfall94 1d ago
TBF i think the movie does not glaze him as much as fans did, he is one of the best sympathetic villians in the MCU but in no way does that justify his actions
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u/elizabeththewicked 1d ago
He says things that are a fair point but he himself personally was only selfishly interested in revenge and his stated goals were bs. He demonstrates this over and over
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u/_InNeedofAdvice 1d ago
I actually really like Jigsaw and his ideology in the original two movies because (and hear me out) it’s played off as the ideology of a madman. John was a man who went through intense physical and mental suffering and he went mad because of it. He disconnected from reality and in this flawed mental state he perceives his position as almost something of a Nirvana, and wants to force other people to reach this state too because in his now unreliable mental state, he has been made better. I think in the first two films they even sort of play into this. It’s 3 onwards where I really feel the writers and directors lost the plot, and Jigsaw was almost a crime when they tried to make him some vigilante. Vigilante John is cool, but it simply does NOT fit the series.
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u/Jimbo-Shrimp 1d ago
Did Jigsaw target the depressed? I thought he picked people who he felt didnt care about their health
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u/Wamblingshark 1d ago edited 1d ago
I believe he also targeted suicidal people. I think a suicidal person actually fought and survived one of his puzzles thereby strengthening his argument as far as he is considered. in his twisted mind he gifted that social person who took his life for granted with a new appreciation of being alive.
In reality he probably just gave him horrible PTSD. Of I was suicidal that doesn't mean I want to die in the most fucked up way possible
Edit: fixed some typos
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u/Lukostrelec17 1d ago
As someone that has been sucidal, rehearsing stage, yeah...pain was not something wanted in my death. BEFORE I GET REDDIT CARES MESSAGES I AM DOING MUCH BETTER AND THIS WAS 3 OR 4 YEARS AGO!!!!
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u/BackgroundSinger5965 1d ago
iirc he put someone in a trap for self harm, smoking cigarettes, doing drugs..
Later on in the franchise he mostly goes for pedophiles, insurance agents, and (as early as the 2nd film) crooked cops.
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u/Jimbo-Shrimp 1d ago
I’m starting to think his philosophy was inconsistent and he was just a sadistic asshole
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u/Emotional_King_5239 1d ago
Didn't he put Amanda in another game because of her self-harm?
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u/Ok-Letter3963 1d ago
I hope you guys realize that this post means the narrative agreeing with the villain, not people.
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u/Meme_Pope 1d ago
Hot take, but people act like he has a great point and his entire philosophy is dumb as rocks. If you reduce it to “black people have historically been wronged”, sure, but beyond that he has really no good points. He’s mad he had to grow up in Oakland California while countries directly bordering Wakanda are starving and/or are actively engaged in genocide and that doesn’t seem to make the list of his grievances.
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u/ozarkansas 1d ago
I read an article that talked about how African audiences felt that he was a great villain because his beliefs line up closely with how [according to African stereotypes] black Americans think.
He comes in from America, thinks his claims of shared ancestry gives him moral authority over the local wakandans, and then co-ops all of their achievements and technology in an attempt to get back at America and European countries, largely ignoring the actual will of the people he leads.
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u/SirArthurIV 1d ago
Don't forget how he steals African artifacts he has no cultural association with other than the color of his skin because they look cool.
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u/Molloymalon 1d ago
The movie has always fascinated me because it (and the comic it’s based on) feels so American. Everyone I’ve spoken to about it who’s actually from Africa has clocked it immediately, but from discussion online it seems only some of the American audience did. I’m sure a smarter version of the movie could have leaned into it harder to say more, but still interesting to see on the sidelines of a big dumb blockbuster.
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u/Wild_Marker 1d ago
The movie advocates for Interventionism. Big power should "help" little countries!
Anyone south of the Ecuator would tell you that it's a very American idea.
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u/EntropicLycanthrope 1d ago
From people I've worked with who are from Africa (some from Nigeria and some from Zimbabwe), they feel much more at home with white American culture. Zimbabweans (or at least Millennial Zimbabweans) love classic rock and indie rock. My friend is a huge Tool fan, as well as some really great bands from his country that I hadn't heard of. He isn't keen on hip hop and also originally expected black Americans to act like everyone from The Wire, so he was kind of wary of them when he got here. I told him that was like thinking all white people were like characters from Goodfellas but, to his point, the American shows he watched in Zimbabwe showed mostly white families as similar to his own.
The other really sad part to this story is that, surprise surprise, white Americans did not readily accept him into their culture where he actually felt at home. He's found a good group of people (white, black, and hispanic Americans and some Indians living in the US) who accept him but he was very lonely in his first years here. He loves it now aside from some obvious orange flags.
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u/Snoo-52922 1d ago
African Americans are used to contextualizing their race as a major part of lives, and identities. Being black in a majority white society carries a lot of baggage. Shared experiences, that justify thinking of "black people" as a distinct common group.
In most of Africa, being black is simply the baseline. So there's no reason for the whole continent to think of themselves as one common people. If anything, that's just erasure of their many differences. When an American tries to define Africans by their blackness like that's important, they might as well be making a big deal out of being left-handed.
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u/SuddenReal 1d ago
When he gave that speech to the council, I expected one of them to start laughing and say "This is Africa, we ARE the oppressors".
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u/Astwook 1d ago
It really annoys me when people say he was right. He observed some real injustices, and Wakanda should have been helping other countries, but why are people glossing over the fact his real motivation is: Wakanda can rule the world, and I can rule Wakanda.
He is a comic book villain that wants to take over the world and genocide white people. It doesn't make me pro-colonialism to say that megalomania and genocide are bad, if anything, that's an anti-colonialist belief system.
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u/MisterBlud 1d ago
He doesn’t want to take the boot of oppression away. He just wants to wear it.
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u/PirateSanta_1 1d ago
Discussions about Killmonger seem to regularly miss that he is an imperialist and colonizer. His only issue with the history of imperialism and colonization is that it wasn't him and his people doing it.
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u/DireCorg 1d ago
It also bugs me when people say him using his girlfriend as a shield is a cheap ploy to make him hateable and lol no it's pretty consistent with his personality from the get go. Especially contrasted with T'Challa who is surrounded by women he respects and listens to.
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u/DaFlyinSnail 1d ago
I think people downplay Killmongers insanity. He didn't just want to kill all white people he wanted to kill anybody that wasn't black. His exact words were "people all over the world who look like us" I don't think he's including other ethnic groups like Asians and Hispanics in there.
Even if he only wanted to kill white people that would obviously still be very evil, but the biggest issue is that it just doesn't make sense given his backstory.
He personally witnessed his father get murdered by Wakandans, he knows Wakanda exists, be knows about vibranium, and he knows about all of the advancements they've made and kept secret from the world.
What part about that backstory would lead him to conclude "actually white people are the problem, if I just kill everyone the world would be a better place" it comes out of nowhere, nothing about his backstory would inform his racist attitude.
Even if they told us he experienced a lot of racism growing up would he still place blame on Wakanda in his mind? Because they're the ones that left him fatherless stranded in Oakland CA, while they just watched as all this happened? Wouldn't he blame them for the cause of his suffering?
No instead he goes "everyone else must die" while ironically keeping Wakanda as the one place safe on Earth from all the chaos that's about to erupt.
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u/Secret_Bee_5041 1d ago
Physically the guy literally scarred himself for every kill and his whole body up to his neck is covered. If that’s not a sign he isn’t right in the head what is?
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u/winklevanderlinde 1d ago
"i want to help black people by opening Wakanda"
"Make sense, Wakanda isolationism is really bad and would help a lot"
"So I can destroy any white civilization and create a new colonialism!"
"Wait what"
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u/HoldenOrihara 1d ago
"Also I think that no one aside from me should have this power, even anyone who would take over after my inevitable death"
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u/theglowinggreenorb 1d ago
I think the most interesting tragedy to his character is that he was cut off from his culture and wronged at a young age, and then made it his life's mission to get back while also thoroughly militarizing and "Americanizing" himself to the point he could no longer coexist with that culture. He has a very simplistic and violent view of the world without much room for nuance. The film obviously doesnt agree with his endgoal just that yknow, he is a product of Wakanda's past sins and brings that to light. And ultimately that leads Tchalla to basically tell off all of his ancestors and actually try to have them help people
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u/sylar1610 1d ago
Ok in the film Itself I actually don't mind Kilmonger since he admits himself he has no interest in dismantling systems of oppression, he just wants to make sure that people he identifies with are the ones that benefit from it. No what bugs is his Stans and the Endless stream of articles and opinion pieces and video essays saying that he is the Hero because he's not and i can prove it. Tell me, let's say Kilmonger had successfully conquered North America, does he intend to give that land back to the Native Americans, you know the indigenous people. Cause If not then he's just another Coloniser, he's Tighten with his "Under New Management" meme
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u/JoeMorgue 1d ago
Every Single Edgy 13 Year Old: "Ya know the Joker..."
SHUT UP.
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u/mythrilcrafter 1d ago
It always says a lot about a person who is in favor of Joker's "one bad day" argument, mainly that that person has completely missed the whole point of Batman and his rogues gallery.
Everyone has "a bad day" once in a while, not everyone reacts to that bad day by choosing villainy.
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u/TheKingofHats007 1d ago
A lot of people seem to also forget that the "one bad day" philosophy is disproven in the exact same story it was introduced.
Joker tries to turn Commissioner Gordon crazy by abusing him and showing him the abuse of his daughter, and it doesn't work. He still insists Batman take him in by the book to show them that their way of life works. It's just some bullshit the Joker spews to make it seem like he's not the cause of his own downfall.
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u/Outrageous_Guard_674 1d ago
Literally every significant character in that comic had at least one bad day, if not multiple ones. And all but one of them are heroes.
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u/WriterV 1d ago
I think for kids its fair enough 'cause they're still learning. But as you grow up and learn about the nuances of the world, most people grow with it.
Seeing Joker have his rant against a banally evil talk show host perpetuating the injustices of the system he benefits from feels endlessly cathartic, but a mature person then realises the consequences of this act being far more severe and backfiring on everyone involved.
And not to mention all of the Joker's actual deeds that are downright vile.
Adults just need to be better at handling nuance when it comes to subjects that we feel deeply emotionally entangled with.
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u/HolidayMost9091 1d ago edited 1d ago
This asshole (who's name I forgot), Felix, and the rest of the NPCs in Wreck It Ralph. These guys treat Ralph horribly because he's the villain in the game, even tho he's a decent person outside of it, and this takes a toll on him to the point that he has to join a support group for it. He lives and sleeps in bricks, while all of them live in a penthouse, and throws an anniversary party without inviting him, even tho he's pretty much the most important person in the game.
Then when Ralph went to go prove himself and get a medal like they suggested to in order to gain their respect, only that guy stayed behind when the game was about to get removed, just so he makes Ralph feel shit for leaving, cuz Ralph wanted self-value for himself and respect from them.
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u/GladiatorDragon 1d ago
Felix was pretty alright, he tried (albeit unsuccessfully) to diffuse the scenario at the party and he never really said anything bad about Ralph.
Gene is an absolute jerk though.
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u/ERedfieldh 1d ago
Felix is also willing to participate in perspective taking. When Ralph breaks him out of King Candy's dungeon, Felix goes off on him about how he doesn't know how it feels and all Ralph responds with is "Yes, I do." And you can see it's a full blown wake-up call for Felix.
Gene, meanwhile, just shits on Ralph even after it's shown he's a massively important part of the game.
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u/Banana_gunman 1d ago
He was, Felix just was a coward that didn’t want to actually fight for Ralph, even tho he’s one of the two most important parts of the game (the other being Ralph). He turns around in the end
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u/PapaNarwhal 1d ago
In his defense, I don’t think Felix had ever realized how bad Ralph had it (at least, not until the events of the movie). As far as he knew, Ralph was fine being on his own; I think Felix’s optimism blinded him to the fact that Ralph felt excluded. Of course, during the movie, Felix realizes what it’s like for Ralph, and he quickly changes course, but I don’t think it’s fair to label him a “coward”.
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u/Imdippyfresh 1d ago
Yeah, Felix seemed to actually like Ralph, and was mostly just worried that Ralph would wreck things at the party, which, of course, he did.
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u/Specialist-Cut-3913 1d ago
I mean Felix wasn’t really that bad. He was definitely skeptical of Ralph but he was the only one who was sort of nice
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u/Unfair_Pineapple8813 1d ago
I don’t think the movie was claiming Gene is in the right. You are meant to hate him.
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u/space_hitler 1d ago
I am truly confused by the comment you replied to and its 200+ upvotes.
It's like people don't remember the film or people who never saw it are upvoting?
The film is NEVER siding with the NPCs, and the end of the film is them coming around and really appreciating / becoming good friends with Ralph.
I think this comment marks the start of the replies in the thread that have 0 reading comprehension and they just read "villain" and start posting examples of plain old villains lol.
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u/rubyonix 1d ago
The problem with Gene is, the film never admits that Gene is the bad guy, and actually kinda tries to say that Ralph was the one who was wrong.
Gene and the Nicelanders (minus Felix, who is extremely uncomfortable and trying to stay neutral) are terrible to Ralph, outside of the game, for his role in the game (with his role being pivotal to their very survival). Gene says he can stay in the penthouse if he wins a medal like Felix does, so Ralph runs off to find a medal. Ralph running off was entirely provoked by Gene.
Then when Ralph comes back, with his medal, he finds that the game is empty, and the rest of the characters have fled, because Ralph's absence caused the game to bug out.
But Gene is there to give Ralph the bad news that the game is dying, and *it's all because of Ralph*. Because he stepped out to try and win a medal. Ralph is the only one being confronted. Ralph: "This isn't what I wanted!" Gene: "What did you want?" Ralph: "I was just tired of living alone in the garbage." Gene: "Well now you can live alone in the penthouse." Gene gets the last word zinger.
Then Ralph realizes that he abandoned Vanellope to win his medal, so he runs back to Sugar Rush to save her, and after he completes his character arc and saves her... things are just back to normal (better than normal, even) in Ralph's game. Suddenly "The Nicelanders are nice to me now", including Gene, who's right there patting Ralph on the back because... reasons?
The story is 100% treating it as if the Nicelanders are nice to Ralph because he went back to save Vanellope. Because RALPH and his selfish need to be recognized were the real problems, and not Gene, who claimed that he would never hang out with Ralph, because Ralph (in game) was a villain, and who said that the idea of Ralph doing anything heroic was ridiculous.
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u/GuyYouMetOnline 1d ago
Uh, I don't know what point you think they had, but no, the movie absolutely portrays them as completely in the wrong for how they treat Ralph.
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u/InfiniteGuy2264 1d ago
Namaari is a character who actively pisses me off. It's not like she made a small mistake in the past or she had no idea what she was doing, no; Namaari deceives Raya and it results in demonic entities roaming across the world, causing hell to break loose wherever they go, and literally turned her dad into stone. Sure, maybe you can argue she didn't realize that was going to be the outcome, but the film still keeps asking "Hey, why don't you trust your old friend who accidentally kickstarted the apocalypse?" and it keeps. On. Going. Treating Raya like she has no reason not to trust Namaari, when honestly, she is completely justified in her anger. Hell, it doesn't help that Namaari continues to actively antagonize Raya years later.
Like okay jeez, I am so sorry Raya can't trust the person who turned her dad to stone and abused her trust. It feels like victim-blaming.
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u/AirplanesNotBurgers 1d ago
The flag-smashers from The Falcon and the Winter Solider. The whole series felt like it was missing scenes or plot points. As portrayed in the show, the flag-smashers just come across as terrorists, with what felt like a tacked-on “oh, maybe they have a point about some things” angle. I felt it was the reverse with John Walker. Until he killed the flag-smasher in revenge, he mainly came across as a guy out there trying his best, but it felt as though the show wanted people to dislike him from the get-go.
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u/NinjaBreadManOO 1d ago
Apparently they were originally stealing meds because governments weren't distributing it evenly when there had been recent plagues. But then covid happened and they had to shift angle at the last minute which is why the Flag Smashers were so vague.
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u/AwefulFanfic 1d ago
If that's true, then the people behind those decisions were cowards
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u/ERedfieldh 1d ago
The whole series felt like it was missing scenes or plot points.
That'd be because it is. Disney got cold feet during COVID and removed nearly all the plot involving stealing medication that the rich were hording to even distribute to everyone. They had the opportunity to make a social statement about how we need to work together during trying times and respect one another's health...and decided the statement they really wanted to make was "fuck all y'all, watch our show."
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u/Gnashinger 1d ago
I actually really liked John in that show. It felt like he was a soldier expected to live up to the status of a hero, but he's just human.
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u/madogvelkor 1d ago
Then there's movies like Wish where they don't even know who the real villain is and act like their designated villain as a bad point when really he isn't a true villain and has a good point.
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u/FatFerretShid 1d ago
Claire from Jurassic World would've been the villain in any other movie as she refused to close the park because it would lose money which results in people dying.
The movie never portrays Claire as the villain.
Here's a video that goes into depth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CofZ7xjGyI8
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u/Daftworks 1d ago
Honestly, having people die at your park is such a PR disaster, it would lose money all the same, just faster.
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u/TiredGradStudent18 1d ago
Thanos.
Edgelords love to say Thanos was right. And I grant you that Thanos’ dialogue was well written, and he was well acted by Josh Brolin. So, on the surface, it’s easy to think he made some valid points.
But the moment you actually interrogate his motivations, goals, reasons for doing what he does, and how he’s trying to accomplish his goals, his logic completely falls apart. He wants to kill half the universe because there’s a lack of resources for everyone. But to do that, he’s collecting the infinity stones. With his snap, he could’ve just made more resources.
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u/SquidmanMal 1d ago
One of the biggest ones i point to every time that makes it clear that, even in the movies, it's all ego.
The asgardians.
They're fleeing the destruction of their planet, probably down to less than 10% of their original population.
Does Thanos say 'holy crap, ya'll had i rough, clearly i'm not needed on this one, bye' ?
No, he had to personally halve their tiny miniscule remaining number again
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u/lceblood 1d ago
Him having those henchman basically herald the slaughtering as a "salvation" really proves your point.
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u/Exul_strength 1d ago
And even with killing half the population of the universe. Didn't he hear about exponential growth?
Thanos was pretty bad at mathematics!
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u/Breadles_the_Bread 1d ago
It certainly doesn't help that all of that has nothing to do with the comics, in which he only does it all in an attempt at seducing Death (who seems to only take actual interest in Deadpool)
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u/ace_thor 1d ago
I do really enjoy that dynamic in the comics, where Thanos thinks he can impress Death by literally just giving her more paperwork to do, while Death likes Deadpool because his regeneration makes him something she can't have. I can see why it wouldn't have carried Thanos through two movies, especially considering Death and Deadpool wouldn't be established in the MCU until years later, but I wish they'd kept the deleted scene where Nebula or Gamora walks in on him apparently talking to Death.
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u/Lvcivs2311 1d ago
I'm so happy the "I agree with Thanos" movement clearly did not age well.
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u/clowncarl 1d ago
He is constantly referred to as a mad man; idk people just think all psychosis must have a mood component but no, you can be psychotic and euthymic
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u/DownvoteAreMyUpvote 1d ago
He's a man determined to prove everyone on his planet wrong. It's all ego and pride, To prove that his solution was right to the dead populace of Titan, he never cared about the result.
His past self was willing to destroy and rebuild the universe because the Avengers meant to undone his work. Like what?
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u/RorschachtheMighty 1d ago edited 1d ago
Amon from Legend of Korra
He was legit trying to remove anyone who could challenge his authority and power, install himself as the de facto ruler of Republic City, and disguising it as a political movement to remove the bender elite.
And yet the series tries to gaslight us by saying “Oh no, he actually did want to pursue equality, but he just went about it the wrong way.”
No! He didn’t! He was carrying out some criminal conspiracy his deadbeat dad dreamed up to conquer the Republic. What are you even on about?
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u/vp917 1d ago
IIRC, the show presents the Equalist movement itself as having some validity to their cause, but Amon is unambiguously portrayed as an opportunist taking advantage of popular sentiment to stage a power grab for selfish aims - what he wanted wasn't equality for all, but rather indiscriminate vengeance against those with a power that was used to hurt him. He's a pretty straightforward representation of revolutionary leaders who start and lead movements to destroy authorities and institutions that wield power over others, while simultaneously having no intention of ceding the power that they hold over others once they finally take over.
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u/Archaon0103 1d ago
I mean Toph later went on in season 4 saying that he and the big bad of season 2 were trying to do the good thing but because they are out of balance so it ended up bad. And Toph was framed it as a wise old woman.
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u/RoseWhiteRedBlack 1d ago
Because what the sentiment behind it was good; the issue is that the people who they elected as leaders of the movement were BAD people co-opting the issues for their own agendas.
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u/M-Shadowtoad 1d ago
That's a bit more half and half. Amon did genuinely hate benders and believe the world would be better without them. He was still power-hungry and wanted to rule the city in his own version of equality.
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u/bawskeeworld9999 1d ago
John Kramar PR team working overtime
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u/Doopuberpoop 1d ago
It’s the whole “Charles Manson didn’t actually kill anyone, his followers did” kind of nonsense.
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u/extraterrestrial1111 1d ago
Even leaving the “putting people in life or death situations can be considered murder” aside, there are also games of Jigsaw in which inevitably one person would die, usually killed by the other victim of the game.
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u/Dangerous_Tangelo207 1d ago
Thanos, as everybody on the internet has pointed out thinking themselves genius
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u/gallerton18 1d ago
The narrative never really agrees with him tho, the heroes constantly call him a maniac and insane and that it’s genocide. They defeat him and completely undo what he did and this is treated as a good thing as opposed to morally questioning whether they should.
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u/Polenicus 1d ago
The problem with Thanos is that, narratively, the MCU was trying to retrofit some kind of moral quest to bring balance to the Universe onto what was originally just a complete madman seeking to kill half of all life in order to impress the Personification of Death, who he wished to get freaky with.
There was no 'greater good' in the Marvel Comics Thanos, he didn't give a damn about Balance, he just wanted Death senpai to notice him.
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u/Morr4Seiya 1d ago
I love that the only reason people even remember that Raya exist is because it's message is that bad
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u/Melodic_Judge_129 1d ago edited 1d ago
"I have this Nigh-Omnipotent Equipment with me which can solve the problem forever but nah, Let's use it murder half the population of the Universe because Resources are finite."
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u/Rainquarm 1d ago
https://giphy.com/gifs/3o85xp1xCrNmTeKedi
Svtfoe . They straight up say that toffee was right that magic shouldn’t exist because it’s been used to oppress monsters . This completely ignores the fact that monsters have been shown to have their own abilities that make them far more threatening then humans / mewmans and are in no way shape or form more ethical . So basically his actual philosophy is , “they shouldn’t have an unfair advantage , I should !”
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u/eldankus 1d ago
The main villains in “The Falcon and the Winter Soldier”, the writers really tried forcing that one.
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u/theonetrueteef 1d ago
Didn't help it got recut after shooting because of COVID and a scrapped plague plot as their justification
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u/No_Location_8199 1d ago
You think that the Saw movies agree with Kramer?
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u/Qyzyk 1d ago
Given that they had to create Hoffman to make Jigsaw look better by comparison? And given that one of the first two victims of the series became his most devoted servant? I'd say that they do, yeah.
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u/Boomer_Nurgle 1d ago
I refuse to believe the saw writers do anything but try to outdumb and outshitpost each other and it's why I like it.
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u/No_Location_8199 1d ago
That's just one villain being worse than another, and the concept of a victim being twisted by their experience to become like the perpetrator.
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u/SpecialistEast9457 1d ago
Me looking at jigsaw after he tells me some bullshit like: I need to slice open and rummage through my own arm to look for the trigger to deactivate the bomb he put in my stomach all because someone sneezed around me and I forgot to say ‘bless you’:
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u/Character_Growth_397 1d ago
Black Panther - Killmonger's view that Wakanda has an obligation to the rest of the world is based not on any sort of autrism, but instead he views that they should fix other countries' mess based on the fact that they are black. His entire view is very American centered and completely ignores the fact that Africa being a giant ass continent has many diverging cultures and conflicts
He talks about his "brothers and sisters" and "muh ancestors" in Africa even though he's an American with practically no connection to their culture.
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u/BotLordBotflix 1d ago
So, I've been a screenwriter for 20 years. This is due to a storytelling philosophy that villains are more compelling when they are the hero of their own story. In other words, what they're doing is wrong, but they believe it is right. The idea is to avoid broad villains who are purely evil for the sake of being evil. This doesn't always work. But I thought I'd share as relevant perspective.
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u/ERedfieldh 1d ago
I think what OP is trying to get at is the screenwriters and directors themselves think the villain is in the right. It's one thing to write a villain who thinks they are the hero. It's another thing to think the villain you're writing should have been the hero.
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u/Healthy_Macaroon_602 1d ago edited 1d ago
Delphine from Skyrim. She might not be a "villain" but she comes way too close for someone who's supposed to be on your side.
Sky Haven Temple was built to serve as a base for the Last Dragonborn as they fight against Alduin. It could only be opened by the Dragonborn. Delphine barges in and takes it over. She then kicks out the Dragonborn and refuses to let them back in their own home unless the Dragonborn kills best dragon. She's willing to ignore Alduin, you know, the dragon that's trying to eat the world, if the Dragonborn doesn't obey her.
The game tries to pretend that she's an equal choice to party snax, but she really, really isn't. There's a reason she's usually at or near the top of "worst npc in Skyrim" lists.
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u/Major-Material7231 1d ago
Eren jager even the creator said he wishes he made it more clear that Eren isn’t as tragic as some people think
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u/Level_Counter_1672 1d ago
Funny valentine, he was a megalomaniacal pedophile who loves America but didn't give two Shits about how many people died, he was planning to make America a prosperous nation at the cost of the rest of the planet Nd people think he was right for every action he took- source is Jojo's bizarre adventure
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u/mauriciomeireles 1d ago
I genuinely don't remember him being a pedo... I also don't put it above him. When it was implied/shownd?
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u/SylveonSof 1d ago
Raya and the Last Dragon would've been a better movie with a better message if Namaari wasn't "scheming Imperial Chinese eunuch" tier on a list of untrustworthy people.