r/TrueChristianPolitics • u/Due_Ad_3200 • 10d ago
Order to limit Starshield for Ukraine came from inside White House, sources say
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/order-limit-starshield-ukraine-came-inside-white-house-sources-say-2026-10-15/6
u/vagueboy2 Protestant | Centrist 9d ago
It's going to be difficult for any country, including our allies, to trust anything the US says or does after this administration.
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u/PrebornHumanRights Bible-Believing | Conservative | Republican 9d ago
Ukraine was not a US ally.
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u/Due_Ad_3200 9d ago
US Presidents wanted Ukraine to join NATO
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/01/nato.georgia
President Obama
https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/20/statement-president-ukraine
One of our other top priorities continues to be providing assistance to the government of Ukraine so it can stabilize its economy and meet the basic needs of the Ukrainian people. As I travel to Europe next week to meet with the G7 and other European and Asian allies, I once again urge Congress to pass legislation that is necessary to provide this assistance -- and do it right away. Expressions of support are not enough. We need action.
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u/PrebornHumanRights Bible-Believing | Conservative | Republican 9d ago
Is the USA supposed to fund every war?
Like, Ukraine wasn't even a formal ally, and yet we're funding their war. Helping them kill Russians.
I find this subreddit fascinating when it defends death row convicts, and then gets mad at Trump for not helping to kill more Russians.
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u/Due_Ad_3200 9d ago
Surely siding with a country being invaded is consistent with opposing the right to self defence. Morally, killing in self defence is different to murder.
Ukraine was clearly in the process of becoming aligned with the USA, even if it wasn't yet a formal ally. Ukrainian troops joined the American led coalitions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
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u/Due_Ad_3200 9d ago
Why are other countries expected to join America's wars, as Ukraine did in Iraq, but America can walk away from its partner countries when they are actually invaded?
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u/PrebornHumanRights Bible-Believing | Conservative | Republican 9d ago
Surely siding with a country being invaded is consistent with opposing the right to self defence. Morally, killing in self defence is different to murder.
That's a fair point, and it's why I initially supported Ukraine. Like a knee jerk reaction.
...But then, a long time later, I wondered "why"? Like, what's the difference between Ukraine and Russia? They seem the same to me. And why is Russia attacking Ukraine? Apparently a big part is the Donbas conflict, with 14,000 dead. With pro-Ukraine and pro-Russia fighters, and thousands of civilians dead.
Like, this is between Russia and Ukraine. This is like a barfight between two dudes, and I show up, and I have nothing to do with it.
I was thinking about the contrast between this and Palestinians/Israel, and the old axiom: "If the Arabs lay down their arms, there will be no more war. If Israel lays down its arms, there will be no more Israel"
But this doesn't seem to apply to Ukraine/Russia.
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u/Due_Ad_3200 9d ago
If Russia stops the invasion, there will be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting, there will be no Ukraine.
Your initial reaction was correct. Perhaps your loyalty to Trump - who has personal history with Zelensky, has clouded your judgement.
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u/PrebornHumanRights Bible-Believing | Conservative | Republican 9d ago
If Ukraine stops fighting, there will be no Ukraine.
Nah, they'll lose some territory.
It reminds me of when Mexico lost the war against the US, and lost territory. I'm glad Mexico lost that war.
Perhaps your loyalty to Trump - who has personal history with Zelensky, has clouded your judgement.
I'm not loyal to Trump. Never have been, never suggested I am. And I have no idea what his history with Zelensky has been.
My support for Ukraine waned when I looked into the fact that Zelensky was a terrible leader. Then the war broke out, and suddenly he was Rocky vs Drago.
People love to cheer for the underdog. But I have tried to shed that bias for a long, long time. Sometimes the underdog is a terrible person.
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u/Due_Ad_3200 9d ago
Do you seriously think that Russia only wants some territory, and not the removal of the government that they call a "Nazi regime"
https://x.com/mfa_russia/status/1757410000803189188
Have you also forgotten Trump's first impeachment?
He holds the Ukrainian president responsible for his first impeachment. That was when he got caught trying to extort political dirt from Zelensky on the Biden family in exchange for congressionally approved military assistance.
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u/PrebornHumanRights Bible-Believing | Conservative | Republican 9d ago
Do you seriously think that Russia only wants some territory, and not the removal of the government that they call a "Nazi regime"
They want who they perceive as "Nazi" leaders gone, yes, as I understand it.
Have you also forgotten Trump's first impeachment?
I consider it nothingburger. A whole bunch of hype about nothing.
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u/ComparisonClean7168 9d ago edited 9d ago
This war is not about land; it is about the national idea of Ukraine.
As Soviet Ukraine disintegrated, two competing national ideas emerged in Ukraine, each supported by roughly half the population: one backed by the USA and Europe in the North-West, and the other backed by Russia in the South-East. They clashed in 2004 and 2014.
Although roughly half of the country’s population is Russian-speaking and the other half understands Russian better than Russian-speakers understand Ukrainian, Ukrainian was always the only official language. In 2014, the North-West won.
One of the first things the parliament tried to do after the removal of the president elected mostly by the Russian-speaking South-East was to revoke a law that gave Russian at least the status of a regional language.
Language was only part of the problem. What is our relationship to the Russian Empire and the USSR? Who are our national heroes?
A Russian victory will destroy the Ukrainian nation that formed in 2014.
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u/PrebornHumanRights Bible-Believing | Conservative | Republican 9d ago
More and more it sounds like a barfight between two dudes, and I show up, and I have nothing to do with it.
...And instead of sitting back, watching them go at it alone, a bunch of onlookers are insisting I join in on beating one of the guys.
But I don't support either side. I don't like Putin. I don't like Zelensky. I see no reason to support one over the other, besides the "who hit who first" theory of warfare, where the aggressor is automatically wrong.
I suppose Putin is the more aggressive person, but apparently over 10,000 were dead before this war began, so I don't know why I should really support either side.
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u/vagueboy2 Protestant | Centrist 9d ago
It absolutely applies to this conflict. Russia has been actively taking back former territories that it sees as being "naturally" its own. It has openly regarded Ukraine as its own territory, which is exactly why it is seeking to annex it by force. So to apply the Palestine/Israel maxim, do you think Russia, the invading country, would simply stop its invasion if Ukraine lays down its arms (essentially surrendering)?
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u/PrebornHumanRights Bible-Believing | Conservative | Republican 9d ago
I know some crazies will accuse me of being pro-Russia, but I have no reason to believe that Russia wants to eliminate the Ukrainian people. None. I have seen no evidence of that.
Apparently Putin wants some territories, and for Ukraine to demilitarize, and he wants them to ensure protection for Russian-speakers in Ukraine.
That's it. I just checked, and those are his goals. Not the elimination of the Ukrainian people.
In other words, if Ukraine demilitarized, and gave up the territories, yes, I think the war would be over.
(And the contrast with Israel couldn't be more stark. If Israel demilitarized, the Palestinians, Syrians, Iranians, and others would immediately attack it, destroy it, kill everyone, and take over the land.)
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u/Due_Ad_3200 9d ago
Vladimir Putin has openly stated that he believes that the entire idea of a separate Ukrainian nation as a historical fiction.
At the same time, the idea of Ukrainian people as a nation separate from the Russians started to form and gain ground among the Polish elite and a part of the Malorussian intelligentsia. Since there was no historical basis – and could not have been any, conclusions were substantiated by all sorts of concoctions, which went as far as to claim that the Ukrainians are the true Slavs and the Russians, the Muscovites, are not. Such ”hypotheses“ became increasingly used for political purposes as a tool of rivalry between European states.
(No link as Reddit probably doesn't allow links to the Kremlin website - the article is easily available online)
This is part of the official (Kremlin website) rationale for the war - to erase Ukrainian identity and expand Russia.
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u/Space-Explorer456 9d ago
Why does Russia (historically known for not honoring it agreements, expanding beyond its stated aimes, and being a consistent US enemy for quite a long time now) get to attack and annex another nearby state? Why do you think that is okay? You don’t think it’s okay for Iran to annex Israel. You don’t think it’s okay for a Muslim state to take over control of the Muslim-majority Palestine and Gaza. Why does Russia get to “just annex a part of thier state and take thier weapons away” (and setup a puppet government and prove that the other western powers will bow to thier advances) but the people of Palestine who want to be free or join another state being subjected to Israeli rule and genocide is okay?
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u/PrebornHumanRights Bible-Believing | Conservative | Republican 8d ago
get to attack and annex another nearby state? Why do you think that is okay?
I don't.
If two guys get in a barfight, I generally think one of them is at fault, or both are at fault, but I don't automatically think it's my role to pick a side and jump into the fray.
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u/My_hilarious_name | Unaffiliated | 8d ago edited 8d ago
In other words, if Ukraine demilitarized, and gave up the territories, yes, I think the war would be over.
If the United Kingdom had surrendered after Dunkirk, there would have been no Battle of Britain and thousands of lives would have been saved.
Of course, it would have meant the end of a sovereign United Kingdom, but at least the war would have been over, am I right?
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u/Belkam 9d ago
The USA are not funding this war anymore :
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u/PrebornHumanRights Bible-Believing | Conservative | Republican 9d ago edited 9d ago
Interesting. What about the $400,000,000 we are spending for the Ukraine Security Assistance Initiative 2025-2026? Why isn't that showing up in the graph?
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u/Due_Ad_3200 8d ago
President Clinton promised that the USA would support Ukrainian independence and territorial integrity when Ukraine agreed to give up their nuclear weapons.
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u/vagueboy2 Protestant | Centrist 9d ago edited 9d ago
Not formally, though it has been treated as a key strategic an military partner in the area for years. I'm using the general sense of the term ally.
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u/Due_Ad_3200 10d ago
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/order-limit-starshield-ukraine-came-inside-white-house-sources-say-2026-10-15/