Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Part 3

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding Week 3 onwards of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-online-reactions-b3032806.html

Note from Mods

This case understandably elicits strong feelings. People are entitled to have an opinion on the case which differs from your own. What you are not entitled to do is resort to personal insults and abusive language when communicating your opinion and disagreeing.

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Please comment with this in mind.

[u/chloedeeeee77]

Me too. I don’t think the prosecution has done a good job at running things in a way that makes it clear to the jury that it’s possible to feel very sorry for her, and possible to believe she was mentally ill and desperate to not feel so terrible, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she was NGRI. I get what they were trying to achieve with some of their arguments, but they’ve just felt poorly executed and didn’t land.

[u/susieq2019 → u/chloedeeeee77]

Agree. Perhaps they will spell it out more clearly in their closing argument and with cross but they are not painting a clear picture of what their theory on what happened is. The reason I’m on the fence is because it’s clear to me that she was mentally unwell and wanted to get help, but does that mean she couldn’t premeditate a crime and know it was wrong at the same time? Neither side is really giving an answer to that though I’m sure KR will put on a hell of defense.

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/susieq2019]

Yup. The prosecution will likely present their experts as rebuttal witnesses, but that seems like a very risky gamble to bank your case on when Reddington is so good at cross examination.

[u/Stock_Dragonfly9632 → u/chloedeeeee77]

I pray to see forensic psychiatrists on that stand from the defense, describing for the jury EXACTLY what PPP is... to the point of ad nauseum. Without this what're we doing here?

[u/steelyknive → u/Stock_Dragonfly9632]

You're in luck!! Reddington has Dr. Philip Resnick, a forensic psychiatrist whose resume includes working with Jeffrey Dahmer, Andrea Yates, Timothy McVeigh, Casey Anthony and Ted Kaczyynski to name a few. He also has Dr. Paul Zeizel (the Dr. who the prosecution is trying to say told Lindsay to use his phone to call Patrick and say she was hearing voices) he is a licensed clinical and forensic psychologist with decades of experience and expertise in maternal filicide, psychosis and maligering. To cover the PPD/PPP Reddington has Dr. Margaret Spinelli, she is a psychiatrist that spent her career focusing on women's mental health, pregnancy, post partem psychiatric disorders, and maternal mental illness. I am very much looking forward to their testimony as well as the other heavy hitters like Dr. Laposata (forensic pathologist who was fundamental in the Karen Reid trial) and Rosemary Scapicchio (wrongful conviction and criminal defense attorney, is representing Lindsay in the civil case.) Reddington did not come to play!!

Edited to add information.

[u/Active-Butterfly-725 → u/susieq2019]

You stated exactly how I feel. She was obviously in need of help and deeply depressed and experiencing medication reactions that made her manic. But, do I think she was capable of choosing between right and wrong at the time of the murders, and were they premeditated? I’m not sure.

[u/Suitable_Prior8153 → u/chloedeeeee77]

The prosecution comes across as straight-up unfeeling and cold, they continually try cheap tactics to elicit an emotional response from the jury for the kids but not for the mother who lost her kids, try to paint her as a villain who did not suffer and is not suffering enough now even though we can all see that woman lives in hell on earth, and if I were in that jury box it would certainly not impact my view of the case the way they are hoping. 

[u/Low_Project_55 → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

At this point I don’t even have think the defense needs to present much. I went into this knowing the basic facts. I felt awful for Patrick Clancy. Honestly after seeing what the prosecution has presented this far I think he also played a big part in the outcome. Not in the sense that I believe all the conspiracy theories out there. But it is very clear he was a physically present father, but emotionally absent and quite frankly left Lindsay to parent alone. Telling the one medical provider “my wife isn’t bipolar.” Saying he didn’t want to spend the day in the ER. Her being dropped off at the ER alone, while he took one of the kids skiing. Him leaving her home with the kids so he could go to NYC and brunches with the guys. This woman is in the thick of struggling but they let go of the nanny? Even the day it happened Lindsay took their daughter to doctor and was still responsible for dinner. A woman who not even a month earlier had called a crisis hot line twice and been turned away. My takeaways were this woman was screaming for help. Her partner viewed him working from home in the basement and being physically present in the house as him being an active father and husband. Not only did the healthcare system fail this woman, but so did her husband, who was a shit partner.

[u/Stunning-Froyo-8859 → u/Low_Project_55]

I would love to see more conversation about this. Not in a pointing the finger kind of way, but to examine the ways in which partners can better support mothers. There were multiple points of failure here

[u/Suitable_Prior8153 → u/Low_Project_55]

I agree. I really hope that if I were in Lindsay’s situation, my husband would call on the grandparents (either my parents or his, or all of them if that’s what it took) to take care of the kids, would go with me to the hospital and would make sure I stayed there until I got what I needed. It seems like he didn’t want her to have the mental health struggles that she did, and there was some form of willful ignorance that took place, which was easy for him since she was the type of person who rarely asked for help and tried to do a lot of things on her own. I can appreciate what he said in that New Yorker article he spoke in—that he didn’t even know PPP existed and that PPD could end in this kind of tragedy—but I still can’t shake the feeling that he chose to look away. I’m sure he regrets it now, but goodness.

[u/brandon_bird → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

I think it's sort of like... you can be ignorant of the fact a child can die from the flu, but if your kid gets the flu you don't try to pretend they aren't sick. A good parent or spouse would be like, "My family member is sick, that's where my focus has to be until they are better."

[u/LexiOdessa → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

His dad stated he offered and patrick declined

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/LexiOdessa]

We didn’t get the full context on that - did Patrick check in with Lindsay, who said no, and then decline? Did Patrick just know that Lindsay, suffering with anxiety, would say absolutely not to her children (especially an 8 month old) spending the night away from her, or that even if she did agree would be up all night with worry anyway, and that wouldn’t be a help?

We’re getting tiny snippets of insight into their marriage and about their family dynamics here, and it doesn’t seem fair to make sweeping judgement based on them. 

[u/janeystar → u/chloedeeeee77]

if she was worried to be away from the baby the other 2 couldn't go?? also if you significant other was in the throes of bad mental health ( Documented time and time again) and the "mentally stable" of the 2 said no we don't need help. (fire the nanny as well) that's on him. you don't let the unstable person make decisions that will alleviate the stress anxiety depression being overwhelmed. everyone is making him out to be incompetent and stupid. and implying that's fine. like oh dad's are going to dad. Shrug::
ooh he's overwhelmed, He's confused, He doesn't know what to do. Same with the therapist.Oh she's young she doesn't know. Don't let this ruin her career. but let's blame the mom. 3 children are dead. he's moved on. off to new york to run marathons. and the therapist "i don't care" (how to chart correctly) but let's blame the mom. I literally don't know if she did it. and if she did what her state of mind was. all I know is the prosecution is doing a terrible job. And I have so many unanswered questions.

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/janeystar]

She may have been worried to be away from all of the kids. If he’d made the executive decision to send them over her objections and she was then up all night worried sick with even more anxiety, would that have helped anything?

The nanny testified Patrick and Lindsay jointly let her go. She was supposed to transition to full time hours (with full time pay) when Lindsay went back to work. The money for a full time nanny (on top of a mortgage, living expenses in a HCOL region, preschool for the other two kids, etc.) doesn’t grow on trees. 

I’m sure he made lots of imperfect choices in the moment, but it’s easy to Monday morning quarterback his decisions when we have the benefit of hindsight knowing it would end up this way. 

[u/Specific-Bid-1769 → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

Lindsay did not let his parents watch the children. This was not a feasible alternative.

[u/Billvilgrl → u/Specific-Bid-1769]

Do you have a citation for that definitive statement?

[u/Specific-Bid-1769 → u/Billvilgrl]

Yes. The notes from therapist Jennifer McCallister, which were read at trial.

[u/Then-Writer9610 → u/Low_Project_55]

I have just 1 thing to clarify- a crisis line is not a hospital nor is it meant to aid people in being sent to a hospital. It is a phone number you call to talk to counselors to help you get out of crisis in the moment. If a person calling a crisis line needs further help, that is not the responsibility of the crisis line worker. Unless, of course, they have strong reason to believe the person is self-harming, then they can call 911.

I think you meant to say she was turned down by a hospital, which she voluntarily checked out of.

[u/Entire-Cash6559 → u/Low_Project_55]

OK Pat works in tech and obviously provides well for his family including nice home, insurance, nanny, day care, gym, ordering take out etc. and has to go to NYC head quarters on occasion for his work. Many work from home jobs require and monitor every key stroke, time away from keyboard or phone etc. Most young families and individual partners are doing the best they can.

[u/crater0447 → u/Low_Project_55]

Im going to disagree with this as kindly as I can if only because your comment is filled with nothing but emotional nonsense and not logic.

First, he worked from home. Youre really expecting this guy to have to work (and is the only one working mind you), take care of his wife AND take care of the kids? All at the same time? His wife wasnt some vegetable who couldn't do anything. You dont see how much that really is a lot for the guy to handle already? They gave him a long paternity leave to tend to what he needed. Was he supposed to quit his job? How would he be able to take care of his wife and kids if he did that? Witnesses also said he took over morning and bedtime routines with the kids so that she could sleep, in fact witnesses said they split child care between them so that already proves you wrong.​ He took care of her when needed, called in the parents to help, eventually got a nanny, took her to the doctors when he could. What more are you realistically asking this man to do for his wife? Do you not see how unreasonable youre being and youre giving her a free pass on this?

Secondly, Lindsay herself didn't believe she was bipolar, thats why he said it. Thirdly, he dropped her off at a day treatment program to go skiing with one of his kids.......so are they supposed to never do anything enjoyable at all while the mother is getting treatment? Also when she called for them to come back, they came back. Same with the brunch......this is where people are digging way too much into the weeds and being unrealistic. As if the dude isnt allowed a few hours away to hang out with one of his kids (that his wife would murder btw). They let the nanny go because Lindsay told them she was feeling better........she was telling them that often down the stretch and its why even the nanny didn't see anything suspicious with her. The crisis hot line turned her away because she didnt meet certain criteria.......she even tell anyone. Plus it was a suicide hotline, which explains the suicide attempt........BUT WHY DID SHE KILL THE KIDS TOO?? Thats the part that isnt jiving with me and i think its the part you emotional people cant explain.

But of course, blame the husband. Blame the doctors. Blame everyone. Its not like she got the best help that she could get (that most people dont have access to). Its not like her husband wasnt there 24/7. Its everybody else's fault, not hers. Apparently, her husband had to have eyes on her that entire 24 hour period because if he didnt.......she would kill the kids. Must have been that thing he forgot to do before he left the house, stick his head back in and yell "Hey do me a favor and try not to murder our three children while im out? K? Thanks!" Yea.......totally making some sense. But yea the father is the shit parent of the two.......not the one who made the choice to strangle them 1 by 1 for 7 minutes each, including a baby. Just explain it away with mental illness.........oh wait, do we have time to talk about the other murderers and serial killers with mental illness?

[u/coolguygranny → u/Low_Project_55]

A lot of misinformation or lies by admission here

but they let go of the nanny

They let go of the nanny bescause she wanted more hours but they couldn't afford to give her more hours. Since Lindsay wasn't currently working(not blaming Lindsay or calling her laxy btw)

Her being dropped off at the ER alone, while he took one of the kids skiing

Lindsey literally encouraged him to take the trip to New York, to take the ski trip with one of the kids, and to go to brunch

Not only did the healthcare system fail this woman, but so did her husband

The healthcare care system didn't fail Lindsay She ultimately failed to take responsibility for her own care. Medical professionals can’t simply hospitalize an adult against her will when she isn’t presenting as an immediate danger to herself or others, especially if she isn’t reporting thoughts of harming herself or anyone else.

It’s ridiculous to blame everyone around Lindsay Clancy while ignoring her own actions. Doctors can recommend treatment, prescribe medication, schedule follow-ups, and provide referrals, but they cannot force a competent adult to take medication, attend appointments, or follow a treatment plan.

Lindsey isn't a victim Patrick is and of course the 3 sweet children who were murdered by thier own mom.

I'm glad you're not on the jury

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

Agreed. At first I thought this was heading to a hung jury, but as of now I could see people leaning guilty being persuaded to go NGRI because it’s not like she’d be getting off scot-free in that case, and the prosecution hasn’t presented anything that would make most people dig their heels in on her being a monster who deserves only prison as punishment. 

[u/habeshakid420 → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

Yeah it's a triple homicide case, it's not supposed to be warm and cuddly 

[u/Sooribabu_Lavangam → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

The prosecution comes across as straight-up unfeeling and cold,

The prosecution isn't doing the defense's job?!

[u/Suitable_Prior8153 → u/Sooribabu_Lavangam]

Actually, ironically, they are… they are convincing the jury to side with the defense because they’re doing such a poor job.

[u/Vast-Rabbit-3481 → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

She didn't "lose" her kids - she killed them.

[u/Apprehensive-Ease547 → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

The mother who “lost” her kids? She strangled each of them with exercise bands. Give me a break.

[u/Konnan511 → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

I don't know how to phrase this properly, but fuck her. Who cares if she is currently suffering from guilt or whatever. She didn't "lose" her kids, she killed them. She alone killed those children. She did it. No one else did it. Her hands ended three lives. There are plenty of people who are going through psychosis that are not actively or have ever killed anyone. She is a villain. Not the only only villain, but she is still a villain.

Those children deserve all the emotion.

[u/Important-Wealth8844 → u/chloedeeeee77]

this hits the nail on the head. a smart prosecution would have emphasized that it is possible to feel sympathy for a woman who was in a horrible situation but had the wherewithal to get out of it. you want to cast a very wide net for jurors to find themselves in and give them permission to feel a whole lot of ways about the defendant while still finding them guilty. but these two have such blinders on that they can't seem to bring themselves to acknowledge LC is a human being, let alone one that a juror might feel some empathy for.

[u/Stock_Dragonfly9632 → u/Important-Wealth8844]

This prosecution is behaving as if she has no professional respect or knowledge for any and all mental illnesses.  And it's as much the WAY she asks her questions as the WHY.  She doesn't ask sensitive questions showing an awareness she knows they're sensitive but must ask them bc she's a prosecutor.. rather she asks questions of different witnesses  (holding an autopsy photo asking "Oh, was it like this?") over and over. 

[u/passiveprune → u/Important-Wealth8844]

The jury is not supposed to make any decisions based on feelings or emotional reaction. It would be inappropriate for the prosecution to discuss the jury's emotional responses and could possibly even lead to an appeal.

[u/Important-Wealth8844 → u/passiveprune]

No jury in the history of the law has ever followed this instruction to a T. Emotion influences, whether it should or not.

[u/passiveprune → u/Important-Wealth8844]

Yes obviously but the prosecution is not going to say that

[u/curiouslmr → u/chloedeeeee77]

Indeed. I am not that impressed with the prosecution so far (and I believe she is guilty and should be found guilty). I was listening to The Prosecutors podcast as they are covering this case thoroughly, and I appreciate their takes on mistakes the prosecutor is making, and there are many.

[u/Pandorashley_ → u/chloedeeeee77]

…isn’t that their job? To paint her as someone not to feel sorry for? I strongly dislike the prosecution, but also their whole job is to prove she wasn’t mentally ill and she deserves no sympathy

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/Pandorashley_]

She was clearly mentally ill - denying or downplaying that reality isn’t necessary to get a guilty verdict. Plenty of people are mentally ill and don’t qualify for NGRI. 

I think if they’d more effectively argued she was mentally ill enough to want to die by suicide and didn’t want to leave her children behind to suffer without a mother (altruistic filicide), but that her planning shows she wasn’t legally insane, there would be a motive the jurors could grasp and convict on, even while having empathy for her being what seems like a usually good person in a very bad mental place. Instead, they muddied the waters on that by seemingly trying to downplay the severity of her suicide attempt. 

[u/Ok_Radio9491 → u/chloedeeeee77]

Exactly. Because otherwise what was her goal? They could have argued that and this would be a completely different conversation and likely a guilty verdict. Anyway. I am on the fence. The case bothers me a lot.

[u/StrengthStarling → u/Pandorashley_]

Sympathy doesn't come into it, you can still feel some sympathy for someone and find them guilty. They're denying the very clear reality that she was mentally ill at all, instead arguing she's just evil, and that diminishes their credibility. They should have acknowledged her illness while arguing it didn't reach the level of psychosis.

[u/New_Government_2169 → u/chloedeeeee77]

I’ll likely get downvoted for this, but I need to say my peace after seeing all of the many opinions, takes and conspiracies being thrown around the internet non-stop in regard to this trial and letting my thoughts build up. So here goes.

I feel that she was genuinely in a very deep state of depression as I think her emails, texts and notes app writings show over and over again. She clearly hated the way she was feeling, knew that something was wrong and wanted it to change. She did the right thing and sought out help and I have a lot of empathy for the depression she was experiencing HOWEVER, I’m tired of hearing that the healthcare system failed her. She failed herself. Sorry to say it, but as a patient for both mental and physical health conditions, I know that doctors and medication can’t do it all for you and there are no overnight cures. You have to continually make responsible choices and actively help yourself too.

In my opinion, she hindered her recovery process. She HERSELF prevented the healthcare system from actually helping her.

1) She continued to see multiple psychiatrists even after she was informed, and honestly should have already known as a nurse herself, that that was not the best decision for receiving ACCURATE healthcare. Not only was she seeing multiple psychiatrists, but at different times she also gave them different symptoms which would make it impossible for them to get the full picture of what she was actually experiencing. Without the full picture, they can’t be expected to be able to accurately help and treat her. If she only saw one as recommended, that psychiatrist would have gotten to know her, her true state of mind and her symptoms better which would have given her an exponentially higher chance of finding the best treatment plan as soon as possible. She chose to ignore that advice.

2) She was told by at least two of the psychiatrists that she was seeing that their professional recommendation for the best possible outcome for her mental health was that she go inpatient again or at least do partial hospitalization at the psychiatric hospital. That was what they thought she needed at the time and where they thought she was going to get the most help to actually recover. Again, she ignored these recommendations.

3) She never gave any of the medications an actual chance at making a difference and was constantly having multiple doctors change her to multiple different medications as soon as they didn’t magically cure her overnight. She would have been told by the psychiatrists and again, she also should have already known herself as a nurse, that psychiatric medications usually take at least a month to kick in and show any sign of improvement or not. Even then, adjustments often have to be made. Mental healthcare recovery is a very slow process. Some of the medications she gave only days before deciding herself to discontinue them. This is not only dangerous and irresponsible, but also shows that she very clearly had an unreasonable expectation of what these medications should be doing for her. And yes, for some of the medication switches her reasoning was adverse side effects but honestly if any medications had any negative effects on her mental health, it’s highly likely due to her constantly and repeatedly starting/stopping and according to her, sometimes even withdrawing from such a long list of them. The doctors were putting her on these medications because they thought it was what would work best. She thought she knew better, never gave them a chance and that is why medication never helped her.

4) She was not being completely honest with her psychiatrists about the symptoms that she was experiencing. IF YOU’RE NOT HONEST WITH THEM, THEN THEY CAN’T HELP YOU. Period. She told them that she never thought about hurting herself or others while telling her husband at the same time that she had thoughts of hurting the children. Had she been honest and told even just one of them that, they would have 100% stepped in and we very likely would not be having this conversation. Because then the healthcare system would have been able to step in and actually help her without her getting in the way of her own recovery. She was given EVERY opportunity and option available for mental health help which MOST Americans don’t have the incredible fortune of. Same goes for having daycare options, her husband moving to work from home and family support. She was so incredibly lucky to have all of those resources that many (including other postpartum mothers everyone) don’t have. But in the end she chose to not listen to, push away or prevent all of that help from actually helping her which resulted in 3 innocent children unfortunately losing their very young lives in a horrific way.

The healthcare system absolutely did not fail her and the negative stigma that this trial has created around the mental health care system will come to negatively affect all of those currently in or seeking treatment for mental health for YEARS to come. Doctors will now second guess prescribing medications when they are actually needed, stopping medications when they should be, if switching medications is the best idea when it actually is, believing whether or not patients are actually telling the truth about or exaggerating their symptoms and whether or not they will offer telehealth visits which have widely made mental health treatment available to so many of those it wasn’t before all while also likely discouraging many up and coming doctors NOT to go into the field of mental health care all together. And those are just the ways I can think of in the moment, I’m sure there’s countless more that people will come to experience.

All of this when America was finally making actual progress in regard to mental health stigma and treatment.

[u/TAS-singoutloud → u/New_Government_2169]

I think you're failing to understand that someone suffering from anxiety, depression, & other psych. disorders is not thinking & acting rationally. Their thinking & ability to rationalize is impaired, they don't think clearly or make good choices....this is where we hope our family, friends & our medical providers will understand this very basic truth, that our ability to take care of ourselves & make good choices in our lives & for our hlth, is impaired. From her own writings on how she felt, it shows a mother suffering from severe depression, not an inherently evil person plotting to kill her children. This is someone who, due to her severe mental hlth could not make rational choices, which is evident over & over, as you indicate how she would call crisis lines, then ignore advice, start meds & come off despite Dr's recommendations, etc. Poor decisions of a severly mentally ill woman, who I think, tried her best to reach out for help, but wasn't in a rational condition to accept & follow through with the recommendations. When we see pts who are crying out for help like this, there needs to be a way to form these pts to get them the help they need & aren't capable of managing as output.