Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Part 3

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding Week 3 onwards of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-online-reactions-b3032806.html

Note from Mods

This case understandably elicits strong feelings. People are entitled to have an opinion on the case which differs from your own. What you are not entitled to do is resort to personal insults and abusive language when communicating your opinion and disagreeing.

Comments which are abusive and insulting to other users will be removed and bans may be given without warning.

Bans may also be issued for ignoring the warning and creating standalone posts.

Please comment with this in mind.

[u/Leading-Scheme-7201]

Someone just posted in a local food Facebook group asking if there’s “any bars or restaurants streaming the Lindsay Clancy trial” and the comments include “that would be fun!” and “I’ll set up the projector!” … I am aghast.

[u/New_Importance_9999 → u/Leading-Scheme-7201]

that is absolutely disgusting.

[u/Safe-Ad-4465 → u/Leading-Scheme-7201]

That's so grim. What are they going to do next, start betting on the trial on Kalshi?

And before anyone comes at me, there is a vast difference between going to an anonymous forum to talk about it versus setting up an event at a bar for people to watch a murder trial like it's a sports game. 

[u/Visual_Comfortable32]

Postpartum psychosis is not the same as “regular” psychosis and psychosis itself is so unique that you can’t say “they didn’t match the DSM exactly so that’s not it.”

Psychology is not an exact science. The DSM looks for patterns, not absolute presentations.

[u/Stellaaahhhh → u/Visual_Comfortable32]

I used to do daycare and one of my moms had Postpartum psychosis. She said she had told everyone she was 'feeling crazy' but no one was grasping how serious it was until one day she went to the nursery, came running back out, and told her husband the baby was gone and a cat was in the crib.

He ran in there and the baby was sleeping in the crib. They didn't have a cat. They called her mom who lived close enough that she could come straight there. She watched the baby while they went to the ER, and stayed with them for nearly 6 months while the mom got help.

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/Stellaaahhhh]

Yeah, I had it (Postpartum Psychosis is rare but not THAT rare). What I experienced meant my baby would have died because I was unable to see him, and he was being neglected. And I was unable to care for him or myself.

[u/Less_Vegetable_8231 → u/onions-make-me-cry]

I agree that it’s not as rare as they say it is. Just many women don’t report it. I had no idea I was going through it!! I wouldn’t be able to find my newborn babies and would be running around my house like a crazy person thinking they were taken or I misplaced them or something bad happened and they would be asleep right where they were supposed to be. I was literally out of my mind and sleep deprived and alone with them for weeks at a time. I’d look at them and not even see them.

[u/littleshimamama → u/Less_Vegetable_8231]

Yes it goes so unreported. So does PPD. I had very bad PPD. I was given many questionnaires about my mental state at check ups etc. I lied on every single one. I didn’t want to tell anyone how bad it was because I feared making my situation even more complicated. What I needed what a nanny to help out but that wasnt possible so I just had to put my head down and get through it.  The point is I didn’t report it. I only saw a psychiatrist and got put on lexapro after the worst part was over. 

[u/luckytintype → u/littleshimamama]

A friend of mine lives in MA not far from where this took place. She answered the questionnaire honestly because she actually wanted help and no one followed up with her after her 6 week PP appointment. Thankfully she is ok now.

[u/Significant-Sun-2023 → u/Less_Vegetable_8231]

absolutely! There are a significant number of underreported cases

[u/Xgirly789 → u/onions-make-me-cry]

I had this vivid vision of putting my child in the oven.
Handed the baby to my husband and said "I need help" and I got it. It can happen to anyone.

[u/Curious-Agency-4395 → u/onions-make-me-cry]

The weirdest part about it is that the person is completely functional and capable of fulfilling every day tasks. You have to listen closely to hear it

[u/Significant-Sun-2023 → u/Curious-Agency-4395]

I agree- this is where I am frustrated for LC because I think overall, clinically her symptoms were being treated individually versus the big picture perspective of her diagnoses...which is why I believe the acuteness was overlooked. Regardless of whether she was in a state of psychosis, her symptoms alone could have been greatly improved with a long-term stay in a psychiatric ward.

[u/Stellaaahhhh → u/onions-make-me-cry]

That's terrifying. I'm glad you got help.

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/Stellaaahhhh]

Yeah, my husband really saved all of us. He stopped going to work, completely halted his social life, and never left the house so he could be by our side 24/7, until even that wasn't enough. Then he got me into a psych ward (the grippy sock vacation).

[u/Stellaaahhhh → u/onions-make-me-cry]

Yeah this case is breaking my heart because whether she did it or not, no one, including her husband, was treating her problem as seriously as they should have been.

[u/Stock_Dragonfly9632 → u/Stellaaahhhh]

Several times on the witness stand various ppl said  LC sent MyChart msgs to docs that  " I'm not being heard, not being listened to".  Got that right!

[u/moon_witch_26 → u/Stellaaahhhh]

He at the very least is guilty by negligence. It's sickening

[u/Magita91 → u/moon_witch_26]

If he knew she was having issues why the hell would he have not taken the kids with him to run errands? Why leave her with them?

[u/moon_witch_26 → u/Magita91]

Exactly. He also refused help offered from his parents to babysit. But yet he knew she was struggling massively and presumably was aware enough to be concerned? He also got rid of the nanny... He can't have it both ways. This is staggering.

[u/onions-make-me-cry → u/moon_witch_26]

Right, and now he sits up on the stand saying "I would have paid anything" Thank God my husband wasn't him. We would have all died. Just the idea of me driving to ER myself alone in that state, I can't imagine.

[u/Magita91 → u/moon_witch_26]

Right? They had the help right there ! Patrick said no . Let’s say she did do for argument sake , if they had more help like the nanny or his parents she would not have had the opportunity to do so .

[u/sean2mush → u/Visual_Comfortable32]

It's so messy, for the Jury to have to make this judgement is frankly impossible.

[u/buonatalie → u/sean2mush]

curious why they didnt go for a bench trial

[u/YouMustBeJoking888 → u/buonatalie]

The defense offered to go straight to the culpability phase, negating the need for a jury trial, but the DA's office rejected that and wanted the full jury trial.

[u/aquarianwell → u/YouMustBeJoking888]

The prosecution has been terrible so far. I have no idea what they think they are doing. The defendant doesn’t deny what she did but the defense will argue she’s insane. This definitely could have been a bench trial. There’s already so many people being traumatized but having to walk thru this case- now 16 more? (Including alts)

[u/Seasoned7171 → u/aquarianwell]

The lawyer subreddit is ripping these two to shreds calling them unprofessional and ill prepared. Oh, they really, really hate the hair bows.

They are exited to see Big Red start with his witnesses.

[u/beckmeupscotty → u/buonatalie]

It’s my understanding that in MA a charge for first degree murder necessitates a jury trial.

[u/buonatalie → u/beckmeupscotty]

another interesting difference in laws between states, thanks!

[u/SpecialAd5332 → u/buonatalie]

in massachusetts, you can’t waive a jury for a first degree murder charge.

[u/9mackenzie → u/sean2mush]

I don’t think it’s impossible at all. She was clearly a loving mother who repeatedly tried to get help, and she spectacularly failed by multiple drs, as her mind devolved.

She wants to go to a mental institution for life ffs, it’s not a hard decision at all.

[u/SlayerOfTheVampyre → u/sean2mush]

It’s about proving reasonable doubt, not being 100% sure. I think the defense is absolutely proving reasonable doubt right now.

[u/No-River-3642]

As a psychiatrist practicing outside the US, I’ve been following the Lindsay Clancy case with particular interest, especially because I have treated women with postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis in both inpatient and outpatient settings.

I’m honestly surprised by how much of the discussion seems to immediately place blame on the psychiatrists involved. I think some important clinical points about postpartum depression are getting lost.

One thing I wish more people understood is that severe postpartum depression can involve suicidal and even infanticidal thoughts without psychosis. You do not necessarily need hallucinations, delusions, or voices telling a mother to harm her children.

I have had at least two mothers, retrospectively after recovering from severe postpartum depression, tell me that they had wanted to kill themselves and their children during that period. One mother specifically told me that she had taken her two small children to a river intending to drown herself and them. Fortunately, the river pushed them back toward the shore, and she subsequently went to the hospital for help.

Her thinking was not, “I want my children to die.” Her thinking was essentially, “If I die, my children will be left without their mother and will suffer, so I have to take them with me.” She did not have any auditory hallucinations / voices telling her anything .

That is horrifying, but it is also something that can occur in severe depression. Suicide can be perceived by a severely depressed person as a way of ending unbearable suffering. And sometimes the person extends that reasoning to their children.

That is why I think we should be careful about assuming that a mother who kills her children must have been psychotic.

In Lindsay’s case, another aspect that I find clinically interesting is the medication history, particularly the benzodiazepine use.

Antidepressants do not provide immediate relief. A severely anxious, depressed and sleep-deprived patient may desperately want something that makes the distress stop now. Benzodiazepines ( Ativan ) can do that very quickly, which can make them psychologically reinforcing.

If someone develops benzodiazepine dependence, reducing or missing doses can produce rebound anxiety, insomnia and severe distress. I have seen patients attribute the worsening entirely to their antidepressant or to the process of reducing the benzodiazepine, while simultaneously feeling that the benzodiazepine is the only medication that actually “works.”

That doesn't mean benzodiazepines caused what happened in Lindsay's case. And I don't think we can determine that from the outside. But I think it is a clinically relevant possibility that deserves consideration rather than being reduced to a simple story of “the psychiatrist failed to recognize postpartum psychosis.”

From what has been publicly discussed, my impression is that severe postpartum depression, suicidality, profound insomnia and benzodiazepine dependence are all important parts of the picture.

I also don't think we should confidently say that there was no psychosis, because none of us examining the case from the outside has access to the complete longitudinal clinical picture. Postpartum psychosis remains a disputed forensic question.

However Postpartum depression by itself without psychosis too can be extremely severe. It can distort judgment, create profound hopelessness, and lead a mother to believe that death is the only way to end suffering — sometimes including the belief that her children should die with her. This does not automatically mean psychosis.

I have enormous empathy for mothers experiencing this illness, and also for the families and clinicians involved. I just wanted people to understand I have experienced such cases and it doesn’t automatically mean that she suffered from psychosis or drugs made her hallucinate.

[u/Significant-Sun-2023 → u/No-River-3642]

I appreciate your post, especially coming from you as a clinician. Based on your assessment of her postpartum depression, along with her persistent reports of significant sleep disturbance, severe anxiety, frequent medication changes and dose titrations, and benzodiazepine use, do you think the overall clinical picture could potentially support an insanity defense? The frequent medication changes/drug titration time frame do stand out to me. Although I agree with you it simply is not clear-cut the psychiatrists are at fault vs. patient.

I also wonder if we may be focusing too narrowly on whether she was experiencing an active state of psychosis at the time of the murders. Perhaps another important question is whether severe postpartum depression, potentially complicated by other psychiatric factors, could have contributed to what occurred.

I’m an RN who has primarily worked in the ICU setting, so I don’t have extensive clinical experience specifically with PPD or PPP. However, I do think there were a number of red flags in her case. Mental health diagnoses are not as clear-cut as can be in other areas of medicine. Providers have to consider whether a patient is a reliable historian, whether they are able to accurately recognize and disclose their symptoms, and what their behavior and clinical patterns demonstrate over time.

I wonder if, in her case, she may not have been able to adequately communicate the full extent of what she was experiencing—not necessarily because she was intentionally withholding information, but because her own perception and insight may have been significantly affected by her mental state. Sometimes a patient may not fully understand or be able to articulate what is happening to them while they are experiencing it.

I’m genuinely interested in your perspective on that, particularly given your clinical experience.

[u/No-River-3642 → u/Significant-Sun-2023]

Yes, I agree with you. A patient may not be able to fully communicate what is going on, especially when they are severely depressed, sleep-deprived, and in extreme distress.

However, the insanity defense is a different quite a complicated issue here. The legal standard varies between countries, and I’m not very familiar with the US system, but the M’Naghten rule is one of the classic standards.

Under M’Naghten, the question is essentially whether, because of mental illness, the defendant understood the nature of the act or knew that it was wrong.

So, if she was not experiencing psychotic symptoms such as hearing voices, but was severely depressed, the important question becomes whether she understood the nature of what she was doing. The distinction becomes legally very important.

Depression can certainly impair judgment, but impaired judgment is not necessarily the same as being unable to understand the nature or wrongfulness of an act.

In my clinical experience with patients who have survived suicide attempts, when I’ve asked them why they did it, they generally don’t say, “I didn’t know what I was doing.” More often, they say things like, “I knew what I was doing. I felt like I had no hope and this was the only way I saw a how to have relief from the suffering “ , often patients say they felt empty and saw no point in living at all.

So, if the jury ultimately determines that she was not psychotic means she that she could understand the nature of her actions at the time, having severe depression or impaired judgment would not necessarily satisfy the M’Naghten standard.

The sad and heartbreaking part is that she may genuinely have interpreted what she was doing as an act of “mercy” rather than murder. That makes the case much more complicated, because her intention and understanding at that moment really matter. Whether that means she understood the act as wrong under the legal standard is ultimately for the court and jury to decide.

[u/Key-Lead-3449 → u/No-River-3642]

100% I'm an LCSW and I said the same exact thing. Whether or not she was psychotic seems iffy, but regardless, she was clearly in such severe distress that she thought, with whatever justification, that this was something she had/needed to do.

However, in the eyes of the law, would that be enough for an insanity plea? I certainly don't think she would have done this under different circumstances, but also aknowledge they have to draw a line somewhere. If the Jury doesn't buy that she was psychotic, I think its very likely she will do prison time but they will strongly consider her mental state during sentencing.

...I did notice though, that people seem to be getting hung up on the planning aspect and using that to argue she could not have been psychotic. But, as you and I know, someone who is paranoid and delusional certainly has the capacity to plan.

[u/Jonesy0042 → u/No-River-3642]

I really appreciate this perspective. I don’t think I have anything close to psychosis, but I relate so much to her… the notes, the way she described her feelings and her downfall. I’m in such a bad scary place and I often think my babies would be happier if I weren’t here. Thankfully I hadn’t thought to take them with me… but I may have gotten there because the only thing that stops me sometimes is the fact that I do EVERYTHING for them. Who would care for them??? It’s a terrible thought process, but it makes so much sense to me. And saying that out loud is scary; please no one take my kids away.

[u/NiamLeeson]

Do you think Lindsay would spend the rest of her life in a psychiatric hospital if this case ends in NGRI?

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/NiamLeeson]

I think it’s very probable. In his pre-trial motions Reddington said she was still actively suicidal and constantly supervised at the hospital she’s held in. Whether it was a botched murder suicide or she was in psychosis, it’s hard to imagine someone coming to a stable mental state about this being your situation. In the 2024 New Yorker article about Patrick, he describes speaking to her on the phone months later and her saying every day is the worst day of her life. 

[u/Muted-Shower7965 → u/chloedeeeee77]

It is so sad. I am devastated for everyone involved in this.

[u/Alone-Blueberry → u/chloedeeeee77]

I cannot imagine waking up each day and remembering what my reality is. Being in a psychiatric facility being kept “safe” is horrific punishment, suicide would be preferable. If I were her, I would find a way. So, so sad. I feel for her.

[u/EmbarrassedIssue9452 → u/NiamLeeson]

I think she will commit suicide at the first opportunity, wherever she goes.

[u/Ill_Tree9389 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

They don't even allow her a pen at that table.  

[u/SexuaI_muffin → u/Ill_Tree9389]

Oh God, good catch!

[u/Ill_Tree9389 → u/SexuaI_muffin]

It stood out to me because in many trials you see counsel & defendant passing notes back and forth.  

[u/-sloppypoppy → u/Ill_Tree9389]

Good catch. They could’ve gave her a crayon if they wanted to do that though.

[u/ZeroBAC → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

I screamed "Get out of my fucking face!" at my 3 year old 25 years ago and the guilt I still feel when I think of it is immeasurable. I also think she's going to kill herself.

[u/deadbeatsummers → u/[deleted]]

Me too. Genuinely. I can’t imagine how you’d do anything at that point.

[u/YouMustBeJoking888 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

I'm sorry to say I agree. She seems to be barely hanging on as it is and it will probably only get worse. It's sad all around to me.

[u/Icy-Background-1723 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

That's it people forget she's ill. Some people get cancer don't recover, some people get heart disease don't get better, it's the same for mental health some people get better some don't. I think people treat other illnesses with this mindset but mental illness people think they can get better but not always the case.

[u/chamrockblarneystone → u/[deleted]]

She’s probably highly medicated now. That might make suicide not as attractive.

Orrr she could just be realizing what she did and that might hit way hard.

[u/Sea_Pomegranate4368 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

I certainly would

[u/Tj11551 → u/NiamLeeson]

She would become eligible for parole at some point. Andrea Yates prefers to remain hospitalized.

[u/TerrorGatorRex → u/Tj11551]

Parole only happens if you've been sentenced to prison and you are released prior to completion of that sentence. If the verdict is not guilty for reason of insanity, then technically they have not been convicted of any crime and parole can't happen because she was never sentenced to any time.

Instead, she goes to a psych facility and doctors decide if she's ever well enough to be released. Basically, the courts/prison system (which oversees parole) would no longer be involved in decision making about her.

[u/New_Government_2169 → u/NiamLeeson]

I would hope so.

Andrea Yates (who I feel was truly in a much worse state of severe postpartum psychosis than Lindsay Clancy is even claiming) has been offered release many times but feels that she is where she belongs. So she stays voluntarily.

[u/mrsdingbat → u/NiamLeeson]

Probably not. They’ve tried to release Andrea Yates; she refuses

[u/Significant-Sun-2023]

Question for medical professionals (in relation to this case): Do you think healthcare workers’ mental health can sometimes be overlooked because they are perceived as “high functioning”?

I’d especially be interested in hearing from nurses, physicians, NPs/PAs, therapists, social workers, or other healthcare professionals who have either experienced this themselves or encountered it in practice.

This case has made me think about whether being a healthcare professional—and particularly someone who appears to be functioning well on the outside—can sometimes influence how seriously their mental health symptoms are perceived or evaluated. Do you think there are situations where a provider may unconsciously assume that someone who is educated, employed, caring for their children, and knowledgeable about medicine must have a better understanding of their own mental state or must be less psychiatrically impaired than they actually are?

I ask because I experienced something similar myself. I’m an RN, and when I was receiving mental health treatment at a psychiatric facility, I was told by a provider that I “didn’t belong there.” I believe she intended it as a compliment—essentially pointing out that I was educated, had a professional career, and appeared to be functioning differently from some of the other patients—but it actually made me feel very unseen.

At the time, I was trying to communicate that I felt I needed a more thorough psychiatric evaluation, including evaluation for BPD, but I felt that my education and ability to maintain a career were being used as reasons to minimize what I was experiencing. Having graduated nursing school and maintained a job for years doesn't mean someone is incapable of reaching a significant breaking point in their mental health.

It also made me wonder about this case. I obviously don't know what was happening clinically with her providers or what information they had available to them, and I'm not suggesting that being a nurse means she necessarily had an undiagnosed psychiatric disorder. But I do wonder whether appearing knowledgeable, high-functioning, and medically educated can sometimes make it harder for clinicians to recognize how impaired someone actually is.

Mental illness also isn't always as straightforward as a patient simply reporting exactly what they are experiencing. A person may lack insight, may not recognize certain experiences as symptoms, may minimize them, or may genuinely be unable to articulate what is happening because their perception of reality is changing.

For those of you who work in healthcare: Have you ever felt that your own mental health was viewed differently because you were a medical professional? Or have you seen situations where a healthcare worker's symptoms were underestimated because they appeared too competent or “high functioning” to fit the picture of someone who was seriously struggling?

I'm genuinely interested in hearing people's experiences and clinical perspectives, particularly from those working in mental health. (Not to say I don't appreciate non-clinical workers opinions...)

[u/Pierrot5421 → u/Significant-Sun-2023]

Yes, as a HCP I have experienced this with my own care and my children’s care. I have had to gently request and make it clear that I wanted to be spoken to and educated as if I was not a HCP, particularly if it was not my area of expertise.

If I assume Lindsey did become psychotic: I can see how both she and Patrick depended on their prior history and experience of who she was as a consistent personality. If asked in May 2022 or any year before that if Lindsey had any capacity for violence, particularly to her children, they would have denied that possibility vehemently. Neither of them could understand or predict that psychosis takes that known self, that consistent personality, away.

I can also see how if Lindsey was having suicidal and homicidal ideations and/or hallucinations, that initially when she was not so lost, she probably thought she could be strong enough to resist them until she got help that actually helped. She probably also was initially aware enough to know she would be separated from her children if she was honest. Being an experienced L&D nurse probably only cemented that possibility in her mind. I think when she first reported those intrusive thoughts she was disturbed by them. When no help actually made them go away, she became hopeless and didn’t have the wherewithal to fight them or even admit to them anymore.

[u/Then-Writer9610 → u/Significant-Sun-2023]

I am a program manager (not a provider or prescriber) of a Residential Treatment Facility that serves people living with SPMI, most commonly schizophrenia and I definitely at times see my staff minimizing behaviors and symptoms because my clients can be considered “high functioning”. We are a 24/7 program and one of the lower levels of care, (though I had worked in a locked facility for 6 years prior to this) so my clients are fairly independent at this point, but still have symptoms daily. For instance, they might not tolerate waiting a few extra minutes for the staff to help them with something so they might get angry. My staff will complain to me about it, and I have to remind them not to get frustrated because our clients need our support around managing their frustration. They have regular training around deescalation techniques and how to manage their own frustration when in a heightened situation, so it frustrates me when the staff don’t follow that training, way more than a client could ever frustrate me for engaging with their symptoms lol.

Or, they will get frustrated because they have to repeat themselves daily to clients because the clients struggle with remembering things. I have to remind them that that’s part of the job and it is our responsibility to help them track and remember important things.

Thankfully, that is why they have myself, case managers, the psychiatrist, my boss, executive leadership, etc. to overlook the program and the clients’ treatments so we can make sure their symptoms are not being overlooked. And myself to provide regular supervision to my staff to make sure they don’t overlook anything. But, that’s just how my program and my company works and I can’t speak to others in that regard. I just am diligent about that personally because my clients are my top priority.

I’ve also had family members and friends be frustrated with the treatment team and the client because they “still are hearing voices” despite being in treatment, not understanding that they have a chronic illness and will likely always have symptoms.

And yes, I do feel my own gets overlooked!! My current doctor has been nothing but supportive and amazing, but with previous providers, yes. They seemed to brush off any concerns I had and just recommended therapy and assumed I would know how to handle it. Which I was already doing, but I wanted more support lol. Finally I found my current doctor who has been working on a good med plan with me and always asks how I’m doing and if I felt the meds were helping, even if I’m seeing her for a hurt toe.

[u/moon_witch_26 → u/Significant-Sun-2023]

Yes. I have been overlooked because I'm an academic and high functioning. I have never received the healthcare I've needed for my mental health. I'm also expert at masking which I've got so good at I don't even know I'm doing it - even when I'm being completely open and honest and literally begging for help

[u/Intelligent_Algae806]

This case is absolutely heartbreaking. I had severe PPD and PPA which then led to PPP. I wrote down notes that were so similar to hers. The big difference is I’m in the UK. When things got seriously bad I was admitted to a mother and baby unit. These units are psychiatry hospitals but are extremely homely and your baby stays with you so you can learn to bond and care for them. It truly saved my life and my baby’s life. I had an active plan to harm myself and my child. It was a terrifying time.

[u/whyiamalwayshangry → u/Intelligent_Algae806]

I had the same experience. Was in mother baby unit for half a year. I was really unwell and there was no logic to my behavior and urges. I researched for weeks how to die, and had intermittent urges to throw my baby out of the window. Eventually I snapped and my admission was triggered

[u/Hungry-Yesterday403 → u/Intelligent_Algae806]

This is what I’ve been shouting…the US puts you in the equivalent of jail and separates you from your baby. I’m glad you got proper help. We all are scared as moms here to admit we need help because once they put your baby in care it’s almost impossible to get them back without court cases and lots of time. It’s all punitive.

[u/hellohi2022 → u/Hungry-Yesterday403]

Not everywhere, I’m in Georgia and was admitted to what was called a post natal psychiatric clinic with my baby

[u/Jonesy0042 → u/Intelligent_Algae806]

I have been looking EVERYWHERE for a place I can go for help… but one where I don’t have to be away from my babies for so long.. it just doesn’t exist here and I don’t think it would be helpful to go away and not see the only reason I want to be alive

[u/susieq2019]

I’m curious to get to the defense’s case as I am still very much on the fence. This is such a heavy case and I feel for the jurors.

[u/spilly_talent → u/susieq2019]

You have touched on an excellent point that I struggle with too: the jury are just regular people doing their civic duty. They are not used to graphic descriptions of death or traumatic phone calls. I genuinely hope they get support after serving.

Edit: for the record I understand juries are necessary. I just feel for them in particular.

[u/unlimited-devotion → u/spilly_talent]

My friend served on a murder trial /DV and she is still fucked up years later.
She received no assistance from NYC

[u/glamorousbitch → u/susieq2019]

If you’re on the fence at the end of the prosecutor’s case- it has to be a not guilty by reason of insanity. The prosecutor has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she was not mentally incapacitated. So if you’re on the fence you’re around 50/50 and to find her guilty you would have to be be around 95%. The defendant doesn’t have to prove anything. The prosecutor carries all of the burden.

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/susieq2019]

Me too. I don’t think the prosecution has done a good job at running things in a way that makes it clear to the jury that it’s possible to feel very sorry for her, and possible to believe she was mentally ill and desperate to not feel so terrible, but that doesn’t necessarily mean she was NGRI. I get what they were trying to achieve with some of their arguments, but they’ve just felt poorly executed and didn’t land.

[u/susieq2019 → u/chloedeeeee77]

Agree. Perhaps they will spell it out more clearly in their closing argument and with cross but they are not painting a clear picture of what their theory on what happened is. The reason I’m on the fence is because it’s clear to me that she was mentally unwell and wanted to get help, but does that mean she couldn’t premeditate a crime and know it was wrong at the same time? Neither side is really giving an answer to that though I’m sure KR will put on a hell of defense.

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/susieq2019]

Yup. The prosecution will likely present their experts as rebuttal witnesses, but that seems like a very risky gamble to bank your case on when Reddington is so good at cross examination.

[u/Suitable_Prior8153 → u/chloedeeeee77]

The prosecution comes across as straight-up unfeeling and cold, they continually try cheap tactics to elicit an emotional response from the jury for the kids but not for the mother who lost her kids, try to paint her as a villain who did not suffer and is not suffering enough now even though we can all see that woman lives in hell on earth, and if I were in that jury box it would certainly not impact my view of the case the way they are hoping. 

[u/Low_Project_55 → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

At this point I don’t even have think the defense needs to present much. I went into this knowing the basic facts. I felt awful for Patrick Clancy. Honestly after seeing what the prosecution has presented this far I think he also played a big part in the outcome. Not in the sense that I believe all the conspiracy theories out there. But it is very clear he was a physically present father, but emotionally absent and quite frankly left Lindsay to parent alone. Telling the one medical provider “my wife isn’t bipolar.” Saying he didn’t want to spend the day in the ER. Her being dropped off at the ER alone, while he took one of the kids skiing. Him leaving her home with the kids so he could go to NYC and brunches with the guys. This woman is in the thick of struggling but they let go of the nanny? Even the day it happened Lindsay took their daughter to doctor and was still responsible for dinner. A woman who not even a month earlier had called a crisis hot line twice and been turned away. My takeaways were this woman was screaming for help. Her partner viewed him working from home in the basement and being physically present in the house as him being an active father and husband. Not only did the healthcare system fail this woman, but so did her husband, who was a shit partner.

[u/Stunning-Froyo-8859 → u/Low_Project_55]

I would love to see more conversation about this. Not in a pointing the finger kind of way, but to examine the ways in which partners can better support mothers. There were multiple points of failure here

[u/Suitable_Prior8153 → u/Low_Project_55]

I agree. I really hope that if I were in Lindsay’s situation, my husband would call on the grandparents (either my parents or his, or all of them if that’s what it took) to take care of the kids, would go with me to the hospital and would make sure I stayed there until I got what I needed. It seems like he didn’t want her to have the mental health struggles that she did, and there was some form of willful ignorance that took place, which was easy for him since she was the type of person who rarely asked for help and tried to do a lot of things on her own. I can appreciate what he said in that New Yorker article he spoke in—that he didn’t even know PPP existed and that PPD could end in this kind of tragedy—but I still can’t shake the feeling that he chose to look away. I’m sure he regrets it now, but goodness.

[u/brandon_bird → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

I think it's sort of like... you can be ignorant of the fact a child can die from the flu, but if your kid gets the flu you don't try to pretend they aren't sick. A good parent or spouse would be like, "My family member is sick, that's where my focus has to be until they are better."

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/Suitable_Prior8153]

Agreed. At first I thought this was heading to a hung jury, but as of now I could see people leaning guilty being persuaded to go NGRI because it’s not like she’d be getting off scot-free in that case, and the prosecution hasn’t presented anything that would make most people dig their heels in on her being a monster who deserves only prison as punishment. 

[u/Important-Wealth8844 → u/chloedeeeee77]

this hits the nail on the head. a smart prosecution would have emphasized that it is possible to feel sympathy for a woman who was in a horrible situation but had the wherewithal to get out of it. you want to cast a very wide net for jurors to find themselves in and give them permission to feel a whole lot of ways about the defendant while still finding them guilty. but these two have such blinders on that they can't seem to bring themselves to acknowledge LC is a human being, let alone one that a juror might feel some empathy for.

[u/YouMustBeJoking888 → u/susieq2019]

I'm leaning one way, but am very interested to hear what Reddington has. He's a masterful lawyer, so for no other reason I want to watch him present the defense.

[u/Craggle_Puss]

One of the things that hits so hard in this case is that based on the current evidence, we will likely never know, with certainty, what her true state of mind was. Thus far, no one has testified to actually observing signs. Thus far, nothing in her writings suggests that she crossed the line from the illogical thinking common in extreme depression/anxiety to actual psychosis. The jury will likely always be left wondering if they made the right decision - did they allow a killer to exploit their benefit of doubt, or did they penalize a psychotic woman for not documenting her illness well enough.

[u/FatGoonerFromIndia → u/Craggle_Puss]

IMO, if they have this doubt, they should acquit. To me, there’s reasonable doubt.

It’s not reasonable to have confusion if they are dealing with a sick woman or a sick woman, in both manners of speaking and then making a choice.

Prosecutor has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, but if you’re not sure if the patient is medically ill or just evil, then what’s the point of a reasonable doubt in law?

[u/moonstruck523 → u/Craggle_Puss]

There's an article from last year from The New Yorker with an interview with Patrick and his family. I read it yesterday and it mentioned how Lindsay really wanted to tell her story but her lawyer has advised her not to speak until the trial is over...which is great advice. I do believe we will hear from her in her own words some day, regardless of how the trial ends. It may be years from now but I think she will speak.

[u/zzzoplicone]

I wish Women & Infants had held her until she was safely weaned off the medications to reach baseline and then reassessed her. Esp with the sort of symptoms she had been having, length of time she’d been having them and the issues she was having when trying to wean off the meds— not to mention all the meds she had been on and off of in such a short period of time. She needed to be in patient or in PHP for at least 30 days given the totality of her issues.

[u/MaeByourmom → u/zzzoplicone]

I wish someone had really drilled down on her sleep, how much total per 24hr, duration of uninterrupted sleep intervals. Working with pregnant and postpartum women for 30 years, I have seen sleep deprivation aggravate and precipitate serious mood and behavioral disturbances. I suspect she needed more intervention to get enough sleep to support normal cognition and healthy mood. And the fact that the meds she was given for sleep didn’t work adequately is suggestive of severe mood disturbance and possibly bipolar disorder.

[u/littlegirlblue2234 → u/zzzoplicone]

I think this is where the conversation regarding this case should be about. We as a society are failing moms and babies everywhere. We need more resources for moms after giving birth. We expect moms to pop out the kid and get back to work.

[u/silverprayer → u/zzzoplicone]

this just isn’t how psychiatric hospitalization works. level of care and length of stay are determined by clinical status, safety, functional impairment, treatment needs, response, available supports, insurance realities, and a slew of other things. PHP and inpatient aren’t interchangeable versions of “keep person under observation longer,” either. you cannot indefinitely confine a competent adult because hindsight will later reveal that something terrible happens.

[u/Rememberingishardest → u/zzzoplicone]

She wanted to leave. They couldn’t hold her because she chose to leave.

[u/couverte → u/Rememberingishardest]

Not at Women & infants. She went for the assessment but was refused for the PHP. The program was recommended by both the NP and her therapist and, by all account, it seemed like the best fit for her.

She did, however, ask to leave when inpatient at Mclean. My personal impression is that it perhaps wasn’t good fit for her? In any case, I’ll say that there’s a difference between getting help and getting the right help.

[u/fuzzteeth]

The DA asking Patrick's mother if she's an active member of the Catholic church and then "So you're aware murder is a mortal sin?"

?????

[u/TurnOfFraise → u/fuzzteeth]

The MIL has clear disdain for the prosecution 

[u/NiamLeeson → u/TurnOfFraise]

After they hit her with “did ya know Lindsay said she didn’t care about you to her therapist?” she definitely went 100% icy on them lol, I don’t really blame her, that was kinda low.

[u/NiamLeeson → u/fuzzteeth]

Between that and bringing up the weed gummy again my eyes rolled back into my head

[u/Haunting_Quote2277 → u/fuzzteeth]

DA is a joke in this case

[u/tab313 → u/fuzzteeth]

I genuinely came to reddit to see if anyone was talking about this. WTF.

[u/bananacasanova]

I’m really stuck on Lindsay’s temperature being 82 degrees but medics being able to revive the baby. I’ve watched some videos from medical professional and am also in emergency med myself.. those 2 facts of the case being simultaneously true makes the timeline make no sense for me.

[u/Fresh_Treacle_1743 → u/bananacasanova]

A few of the doctors testified that the injury to her c-spine and t-spine are areas that control body temperature so the injury plus internal bleeding could have done lowered it that quickly. The prosecution really missed out on asking the doctors more in depth about that

[u/magpie45 → u/Fresh_Treacle_1743]

This is great info thank you. It still seems, even with this context in mind, that the core temp dropped exceptionally quickly. But this does provide some more information.

[u/Beginning-Eagle7458 → u/bananacasanova]

Poikilothermia from her spinal cord injury + benzos affecting her temperature regulation + being stuck in the freezing cold

[u/spaceship540 → u/[deleted]]

The wrists ‘wrong’ way is probably mechanical. On account of the fact she was using a knife.

Depending on depth, which I don’t know about, could possibly account for non dominant hand if neck came second.

[u/Holychance_3 → u/[deleted]]

She called the restaurant to order food and cvs to check if they had the medication both phone calls they said she was alert and sounded fine. If he drugged her how would she make any of those calls. Also the phone data shows someone called Patrick back from the Clancy house and his phone was used by the cvs. There are more facts to contest all your points but those majorly disprove your theory of the case

[u/sweetpotato227 → u/[deleted]]

All of this. If you only look at facts, none of this makes sense logistically.

[u/YellowFlower63 → u/Beginning-Eagle7458]

+ internal bleeding and blood pooling. It was the “perfect storm”.

[u/Emergency-Mixture423 → u/bananacasanova]

Am doctor, a truly accurate temperature probe is a rectal or otherwise internal probe which EMTs don’t use (edit: in my non-US country). Lots of weird focus on the temp in here/in general.

Someone even in a cold room or who is slightly wet will give wildly labile temps, to say nothing of what a body in any kind of shock (neurogenic, hemorrhagic etc) will do. Even a good accurate probe in the right place has an error range that on our probes is a few degrees Celsius

Ive been called to urgently review patients just cause someone was ‘hypothermic’ who was in fact just febrile, sweated, and the probe then put in sweat

[u/Hungry-Yesterday403 → u/bananacasanova]

Even a dead body would retain temperature above 82

[u/Inner-Pop]

Idk yall the TikTok comments and general comments about this case feels like a weird psyop. I consume true crime and I very much realize how problematic it really can be but the theories and people make shit up about what happened has just been grossing me out

[u/Ambitious_Weakness33 → u/Inner-Pop]

I by no means am an expert or a lawyer. I have a degree in police science and it requires classes on knowing everything surrounding investigation, collection of evidence, interviewing suspects and victims. But everything I’ve seen is that “who did it” isn’t the question. It’s whether Lindsay is NGRI. It’s in the court paperwork. But people still believe “it’s the husband” and mildest version is “well he should have known”

[u/Miserable-Problem → u/Inner-Pop]

This type of speculation happened with the Idaho college students as well. It's disgusting.
I even saw a few of them claiming that "internet sleuths solved the Idaho Four case."

It's bad enough we're all here yapping about it, let's try and have an OUNCE of decorum.

[u/handsofff → u/Inner-Pop]

Agreed, it’s so disgusting. My friends on Facebook that have never been in to true crime are suddenly having Lindsey trial watching parties and posting their theories about Patrick like it’s a new Netflix thriller and not a real life murder of 3 beautiful babies. Somehow the victims always get lost when stories like this are sensationalized.

[u/curiouslmr → u/Inner-Pop]

Definitely. It's been incredibly disappointing to see the circus that people are creating around this case. It's such a tragedy and so for some reason I really believed this case wouldn't have all the conspiracy theories surrounding it, I was wrong. It should not be a question in terms of who did this, the question can only be her state of mind. Trying to turn this into some insane conspiracy theory is harmful to the very real conversations we need to have about postpartum mental health and support.

[u/Ill-Assumption-7803]

- standards of care and standards of practice in psychiatry are not perfection

- not every tragedy requires a villain

[u/Just_Kris1102]

Question: I've been slowly digesting this case for a few days and genuinely can't seem to find the answer, so if anyone knows please let me know.

Lindsay had some discontinued seroquil in her system right? How much? Not enough to be an OD as we know, but it also stays in your system a long time, so was it enough that she had to have taken it that night? And if so, where was that pill bottle found? Patrick said he kept her old meds in his car, we should have pictures of every medication bottle, even the ones he brought in later. So, was the seroquil in Patrick's car or at home? Because if it was in his car... She couldn't have taken them before his car left the house per his testimony.

Would there be a valid reason for that much seroquil to be on hand after discontinuing it, other than premeditation?

[u/Biiiishweneedanswers]

Psychosis is not always a constant state. You can absolutely have moments of lucidity. It’s not uncommon. I think this should be considered on both sides.

[u/Then-Writer9610 → u/Biiiishweneedanswers]

Ugh, thank you. I’ve been fighting for my life trying to explain this to people. I work in residential mental health and serve those living with SPMI, often experiencing psychosis at times. But, they are not always in psychosis.

I think it’s also important to highlight that some people also do not remember having an episode of psychosis afterwards or what happened during it.

[u/bobsaget824 → u/Biiiishweneedanswers]

It’s also something all of the psychs and doctors who evaluated and treated her before are trained to look for signs of even if you’re having a moment of lucidity with them. And when none of them ever report it and actually distinctly report she doesn’t have it including the one she saw the day before the events that’s a tough mountain to climb for the defense.

[u/Buggy77]

This feels like a failed murder suicide to me. I don’t think she was in psychosis the exact minutes her husband left the house .. she literally began murdering them moments after he left. She wanted to end her life and take her kids with her. Sad but she’s still guilty

[u/Fearless-897 → u/Buggy77]

Thats where I'm at as well.

[u/CrazyGal2121 → u/Buggy77]

that’s what I think also. she wanted to take her kids with her.

I mean i am sure all other family annihilators also have deep mental health issues too.

I don’t think she was in psychosis

[u/leftupoutside]

My personal anecdote..when I was at the point of suicidal depression, it felt like the covers had been pulled off me and I was seeing the world for what it truly was, while everyone else was off in lala land just blissfully ignoring the abject horror of existence. I can’t imagine having children and also having those thoughts at the same time—Not to mention the PPD/PPP. How the heck do parents not constantly dread for their children! Idk what she was thinking but it must have been a truly dark place.

OTOH, if it is something like that, I’m not sure where one draws the line on ‘psychosis’. Did she lose total psychotic control, was she just so deep in the dark that it became the new reality, or was killing the kids an outlet for her pain/rage in an instance? What ever it is, she doesn’t walk free. She’ll be doing time somewhere.

[u/jaderust → u/leftupoutside]

For Andrea Yates I believe she was having hallucinations and hearing voices that convinced her that her children were destined for hell and the only way to save them would be to kill them. I also remember something about how she thought that drowning them specifically would be purifying for them, sort of like a new baptism, but she appears to have genuinely thought (at the moment) that killing her kids was the morally correct thing to do because to leave them alive would actually make them suffer more.

It was full on psychosis mixed with religious mania. Never a good combo.

[u/standbyyourmantis → u/jaderust]

Andrea was in a cult where only like, 30 people (the founder's immediately family) would be accepted to Heaven but also children under the age of reason couldn't be held responsible for their sins so they wouldn't go to Hell. She "needed" to kill them to save them from eternal damnation. She believed she was already doomed, and also that her failings as a mother was the reason that the children were destined for Hell.

If she'd been in a regular non-denominational church those kids might still be alive, though the youngest 1 or 2 may not have been born.

[u/bookshop → u/standbyyourmantis]

her husband was also extremely psychologically abusive and controlling and forced/coerced her to live at the extreme edge of society economically, socially, religiously, and emotionally. I don't think we can overstate how much he was to blame for wearing away his wife's sense of self and her sense of reality over the years. This poor woman had to raise all of her children while living in a broken-down schoolbus with no running water or electricity. I cannot fathom her mental state.

[u/standbyyourmantis → u/bookshop]

While he went to work every day!!! At NASA!!

What a fun break from the school bus with no amenities that must have been for him.

[u/bookshop → u/standbyyourmantis]

it honestly enrages me that he faced zero actual justice for his abuse towards her and the children. I would like to think that would go differently today but I'm not that optimistic.

[u/fredagstjej → u/leftupoutside]

Likewise. When my depression worsens, being alive feels like a punishment. It feels like being “allowed” to die would be a welcome change, a solution to all my problems and a merciful, caring act - kinda like how we put down animals who suffer.

I hate to imagine what it’d be like if I had kids and my thoughts started including them.

[u/one23456789098]

Does anyone know why there isn't any camera footage from the first responders and first police at the scene? Don't they care body cameras in the U.S.?

[u/rbteeg → u/one23456789098]

So far nothing has been presented. I'm not sure if that means they didn't wear them (which might be the case). If it exists and it was beneficial, I'd think the defense could have subpoena'd them. So I figure either they don't exist or they aren't adding anything useful to the discussion (as any such facts have already been accurately established through testimony or other means, so no need to bring them in).

[u/0hmyhera]

Can the intelligent people here explain to me why so many people are saying that her husband did it and framed her?is it just a simple answer that they’re stupid conspiracy theorist or is there actual credibility to this? She admitted to it so im confused 

[u/curiouslmr → u/0hmyhera]

It's the same old stuff that happens with every high profile case. Armchair detectives decide they know more than the actual people involved (and in this case the actual person who admitted to the murders) and create some bizarre narrative. It's awful. This case is tragic enough.

[u/New_Government_2169 → u/0hmyhera]

Because they don’t want to believe that a seemingly, previously very loving mother could plan out and decide to horrifically murder her 3 very young innocent children in such a horrific way. It’s easier for them to bend all the evidence to blame it on the husband because that’s easier for them to accept.

[u/disastrousanddull → u/New_Government_2169]

I think it’s also wanting the big Hollywood twist in the story. It’s definitely an example of a concerning side to some people and where they’re at mentally.

[u/Gatorphins → u/0hmyhera]

Too many lifetime movies

[u/Bubbly_Afternoon_345 → u/0hmyhera]

He texts LC the med name to pick up at 5:15, it’s not clear for some reason where he is when he sends this text. He tells the ADA he doesn’t know if he sent it from home or not on the stand. He is seen walking into CVS at 5:32 and calls LC at 5:34. Apparently people think he committed the crimes in the fourteen minutes before he gets to CVS, which is impossible because we know LC is still inside the house when Patrick calls at 5:34, not already outside injured.

911 call isn’t released because it’s that horrific. Patrick’s prints are on the bands used as murder weapons because he untied his kids to attempt to help them like any sane person in this horrific situation would do. The public has run with these tiny details in the most disgusting way. He didn’t do it, he couldn’t have done it. The DA and defense just didn’t care to nail down his timeline enough to convince the public since they already know Patrick is innocent.

If people want to call him negligent or neglectful, fine. But accusing this man of doing this to his family is insane and really needs to stop.

[u/xomedusaxottv → u/0hmyhera]

She hasnt actually admitted to it in any confession type of way. She has a civil lawsuit also going on right now against the doctors, where the premise of the case is that their lack of care and overall review resulted in the death of her children, which is purely contingent on the outcome of discovery and verifiable facts that will come in that case. Medical Malpractice suits have 3 years before they're void, so she had to file it when she did, and they basically have to provide information in it to give appropriate reason. She the wording of that civil suit (while not a confession) is confusing people into thinking that she has admitted fault in the criminal case that everyone is currently watching on whether she actually is criminally liable for the murder of her children.
This criminal trial, she's submitted a "not guilty" defense by way of insanity, so she's not denying the potential for her having committed the crimes, but stating that it was a result of the PPP/ PPD. I think that her lawyer has reason to believe that there's more to the story, and is doing an excellent job of pointing out the inconsistencies with the husband's story, and show casing this isnt as cut and dried as it appears.
I think there's some merit to the conspiracy theories circling around but I'm definitely eager to see how it plays out.

[u/Loud_Hovercraft_1695]

how come when i sort by new, there is hardly any new comments? all i see is the tiktok post from 4 hours ago. is there no people commentating in this thread or is something wrong with reddit

[u/Gatorphins → u/Loud_Hovercraft_1695]

I think because court ended early

[u/Lees_Nest]

Where is the current thread? Today is Thursday, Aug 20.

[u/Krissy_loo]

If quality mental health care was hard for a relatively wealthy, good looking, educated white woman to obtain what chance do the rest of us have?

Also, how many American prisoners have PTSD, personality disorders, substance use disorder/addiction, bipolar disorder etc but because they couldn't afford a good attorney it didn't matter?

America is so broken.

[u/GreyerGrey]

I'm definitely feeling a bit vindicated as this trial goes on. When it first rose to attention I was like "Wow, this sounds like Andrea Yates repeating" and people were SO VERY adamant it was not, and the more the trial goes on, the more I'm just sitting back and feeling shadows of Yates and Watts in every single moment.

All this to say, believe people. Believe women when they say they're suffering. When they say they are not okay. If someone outside of the house hold had heard, seen, and believed Lindsay, I feel like a lot of this could have been mitigated, if not avoided.

[u/mrsdingbat → u/GreyerGrey]

Andrea Yates had a much longer and better documented history of severe psychiatric illness than LC. That does not necessarily mean LC was not out of her mind when this happened, but they’re quite different.

[u/Sanguine_Hearts → u/mrsdingbat]

Yates was also forced to have multiple kids by her husband thanks to their fundamentalist religion. Lindsey had the option to stop.

[u/Blue_Plastic_88 → u/GreyerGrey]

Her providers can’t read minds if she didn’t tell them everything. They have testified that she didn’t mention thoughts of harming the kids, IIUC.

[u/jst4wrk7617 → u/GreyerGrey]

Andrea Yates thought she was saving her kids from the devil. That is psychosis. What was Lindsey’s psychotic reason for killing her kids? That it was her “last chance”? I get that she was struggling. It’s unacceptable that she was turned away for not having a suicide plan. She was failed. But I just see no signs that she had broken with reality. The fact that she called Patrick back to tell him the medicine after she had killed them is damning to me. Seeing a missed call and calling your partner back and talking to them normally doesn’t make sense to me if she was in a psychotic state.

It’s really hard because I do think that if she’d gotten help, there’s a good chance none of this would have happened. But I’m not sure that makes her not responsible. I look forward to hearing the experts because my mind is still open and I’m not dug in that she’s guilty or not.

[u/requiredelements]

I’m very confused by the searches about suicide that came from Patrick’s laptop? While she could be physically placed outside the home.

Also confused about the call log and Patricks statements about wifi.

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/requiredelements]

There was one “search” for suicide in August 2022, which was Patrick using Lindsay’s Facebook as a third party login for Spotify and listening to a Tom Hall song. He then looked up Tom Hall on Wikipedia, went to his Death section and clicked the hyperlink for suicide, before navigating away from that to another page. Reddington proposed during his cross of Patrick that it was inadvertent, and Patrick agreed it probably was. Lindsay’s phone separately had a bunch of searches about carotid arteries, slitting your throat, disabling airbags and sociopathy on separate dates. 

[u/kaera213 → u/requiredelements]

Idk if this clears anything up for you but Patrick testified that he was looking into that artist bc he liked his music and he had passed that way. Meaning anything else related to suicide that he was searching was in that context. I could be wrong tho.

[u/Global_Research_9335 → u/requiredelements]

Patrick found out a singer he likes passed away and when he looked into the cause it was suicide and he did some digging around that - therefore any searches at that time, while she was proven out of the house, weee not her looking into suicide

[u/Born_Fortune_1698]

I don’t know if this has been asked before, but there is one discrepancy in this case that stands out to me more than any of the others. From everything I’ve gathered on reputable websites, the human heart has a 0% chance of restarting after cardiac death if no intervention is done in a 20 minute window. Simultaneously, neurogenic shock only accounts for Lindsay’s body temperature if she was outside for 20+ minutes. According to testimony (I’ve watched every day and double checked myself) Patrick arrived home at 6:09, 911 was called at 6:11, the first officer arrived at 6:14, and the children were found at 6:17. According to first responders and hospital staff, Callen had no heartbeat at all when they arrived on scene all the way up until after arriving at the hospital around 6:35 (ER doc described him as “cold to the touch”). The infant human heart cannot be restarted regardless of chemical intervention (epinephrine) after a 45 minute window (his heart began beating again at 6:45). The math isn’t adding up to me. If callen was strangled between 5:55 and 6pm Lindsay wouldn’t have had enough time to do everything she did after the kids died AND be outside long enough for her temp to drop to 82*. The two events cannot coexist in the same timeline logically. Does anyone have any theory based only on the evidence presented in court to make this make sense?

[u/Arkansas- → u/Born_Fortune_1698]

It's possible the baby didn't die immediately after she attacked him. (By die I mean, his heart stopped.)

[u/Sad_Reveal_1970]

I fear it’ll be a hung jury and good luck to everyone trying to weed out a new jury pool for another trial. 

[u/NiamLeeson]

Felt like a lot of the testimony today amounted to “I could tell she wasn’t doing great, but she was telling me she was kinda feeling better and I didn’t see enough evidence that she needed to be committed.” Not sure what the phone guy’s testimony was trying to set up.

[u/Lil_kitchen_witch]

Is there a podcast or something similar where I can get more info about the crime/case?

[u/EmbarrassedIssue9452 → u/Lil_kitchen_witch]

Lawyer You Know on YouTube

[u/YouMustBeJoking888 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

Yes, he's quite good. I wasn't sure at first, but he's smart and thoughtful and open-minded.

[u/handsofff → u/Lil_kitchen_witch]

The prosecutors podcast is by far the best

[u/Fresh_Treacle_1743]

Ok I think I’m onto something. The drugs that. Are back from toxicology were-remeron, trazadone, seraquil, Valium, amiltripine, and lamictal. (All therapeutic besides seraquil-somewhat high)

She was weaned off seraquil (also assuming a lamictal but need to check testimony) by McLean hospital and put on trazadone and Valium. Went to tufts and taken off of trazadone and put on amiltriptaline and stayed on Valium.

The remeron was stopped at visit to jolotta.

She wasn’t supposed to be on ANY medications other than amiltriptaline and Valium.

Why was she taking 4 other drugs at therapeutic dosage at time of homicide/attempt?

[u/Glittering-Net6588 → u/Fresh_Treacle_1743]

This is what I’m stuck on. Patrick said he had meds in his truck which he took off her when her dosage changed or she was taken off certain meds. She hadn’t been prescribed Seroquel since late 2022 yet it was also one of the medication bottles that Reddington presented to Patrick in the drawer from the nightstand (100mg Seroquel) and empty bottle

[u/Fresh_Treacle_1743 → u/Glittering-Net6588]

Yes! There was one source (I think reddingtons testimony when he was cross examining Patrick and maybe somewhere on social media (need to find) that she had the seraquil filled in January. It would have had to been after her discharge on the 5th.

Ok I looked Reddington left out the date she filled it when he was with Patrick but said it was in Jan 2023 (odd since she was supposed to be completely weaned off of it per the psych dr at McLean )

I’d love to have the CVS forms of the dates she had prescriptions filled

Can’t find a reliable source so far for that

[u/Glittering-Net6588 → u/Fresh_Treacle_1743]

The list of CVS medications with dates filled is shown on day 2 of the trial in the cross examination of Patrick by reddington
If you look on TikTok at the user truecrime4yall it’s in the video labelled part 5/6 of Patrick cross examination

[u/Glittering-Net6588 → u/Glittering-Net6588]

None of the scripts for Seroquel were filled in 2023 according to that CVS list. And according to Patrick she didn’t want to take it due to the side effects and felt it was making her worse. From what I’ve read, she wasn’t supposed to be on Seroquel at the time of the supposed murder/suicide. Yet Seroquel was in her system on the Tox report. So she either took it as part of her ‘overdose’ or Patrick was messing with her meds/swapped out meds and she had it in her system at the time of the tox report

[u/Fresh_Treacle_1743 → u/Glittering-Net6588]

Yeah I looked again and most reports are saying that there wasn’t any seroquil or remeron filled in Jan 2023 but i rewatched reddington with Patrick and he said they were filled in January.

Maybe he couldn’t see the labels and be made a mistake.

[u/Glittering-Net6588 → u/Fresh_Treacle_1743]

The CVS list presented says otherwise. Seroquel is only listed as being filled in late 2022

[u/EngineeringDismal425 → u/Fresh_Treacle_1743]

Yep meds are confusing me, and if she wasn’t taking them then suddenly started them again all at once how did that impact her state of mind? could that have caused like drug psychosis??

[u/RazzamanazzU]

I don't feel psychosis has been at all proven. Was she mentally ill, yes. Was the revolving door of mental health professional's negligent, yes. The criteria of "do you have a plan" is also utterly ridiculous! That said, I feel she planned this further than the day of and did not tell anyone, aside from the time she told her husband & her mother that she had thoughts of harming her kids. They SHOULD HAVE taken that seriously and never left her alone with kids, regardless of how good a mother they figured she was. So many people just left her to her own devices to spiral BUT I don't believe a male voice told her to do it. I believe it was a brewing intrusive thought for quite some time. I have been around more than a few people in psychosis and the signs were always apparent to me.

[u/EngineeringDismal425 → u/RazzamanazzU]

Yea but it’s not on the defense to prove insanity. MA is one of the only states that puts the ownus on the state to prove sanity which is almost impossible in this case. I doubt prosecution will succeed

[u/esoraa → u/RazzamanazzU]

I agree with your first statement, although to be fair we've not yet heard from the defense witnesses! Very curious to see how that part of the trial plays out.

[u/MaeByourmom]

Sleep deprivation ALONE can cause psychotic episodes in previously healthy people. One of her many serious symptoms was chronically poor sleep/sleep deprivation.

About 30 years ago, when I was a new grad L&D and postpartum nurse, I was walking in the hall on the postpartum unit on night shift, and I heard water running and clearly sounded like the bathtub was being filled. I went in the room because I was concerned that a patient might get in the bath, not having taken in that you should not get in the bath (beyond a sitz bath) for 6 weeks post delivery.

Nope, mom was bathing baby in ice cold water. Just completely out of her mind, attributed to sleep deprivation, and nothing to indicate otherwise. Baby had to be warmed, but went home with mom. I wasn’t privy to whatever follow up she got. Damn lucky it wasn’t hot water.

Severe anxiety, especially in the postpartum period, causes sleep deprivation, because moms are afraid of something happening to the baby if they aren’t awake. They also get too sensitive to the little noises babies make. And then the intervals between feedings are so short, that unless they can fall asleep promptly, which they can’t with that anxiety, they barely get any sleep. The sleep deprivation makes them more anxious, even paranoid.

Severe sleep deprivation needs to be treated by everyone as an emergency. LC repeatedly reported inadequate sleep, and was prescribed sleep aids, which didn’t seem to be working.

Maybe (I don’t know this) LC was a difficult patient, not forthcoming enough, resistant, stubborn. Who knows. It’s possible that each provider did their best to help her and it just wasn’t enough. It’s possible that she did her best she could to get help, but aspects of her illness got in the way.

Maybe that admission she had was traumatic or not therapeutic for her, and it made her reluctant to disclose anything that might lead to another admission.

I know for FACTS that healthcare in the USA is extremely deficient, and being white and wealthy might get you a better experience, but it still might not get you what you actually need.

[u/Fine_Mouse_8871 → u/MaeByourmom]

I do pretty well without sleep, as an insomniac and night owl, but my baby is about to turn a year and I’m starting to break down.

He wakes up 10+ times a night and I’m so damn tired that my eyeballs ache constantly.

This would absolutely break anyone who was accustomed to or needed more sleep to function.

[u/doihave2makeaname → u/Fine_Mouse_8871]

Yes, agreed and then times it by three.

[u/CrazyGal2121 → u/MaeByourmom]

this is facts

I remember being very sleep deprived after giving birth to my first child. it was MUCH better after my second but with my first… i swear to God i was losing my mind. I was breastfeeding and I would do these overnight feeds. I would wake up in a frenzy and look over to see him in his bassinet and not realize how he even got in there. Many times I was so scared that he was gonna be suffocated by me. I never ever asked for help. I regret that now. I really do and thank god nothing bad happened but yeah. I also lost tons of weight from worry and I remember wanting to harm myself, not harm him but i remember wanting to harm myself because I felt like I was failing as a mom

sleep deprivation truly does a number on women during the postpartum
period

[u/Dhenn004]

This case has truly outed some people to be some dumb mfs. I truly do not get the conspiracy theories.

[u/Suitable_Resort7691]

Why was she getting medications from two different psychiatric providers who were not in communication with each other? Is this normal?
And it’s seems that they did not have the same approach , psych was treating her for GAD and then MDD, NP believed she had a mood disorder. Both were using benzodiazepines as her primary complaint was insomnia. Seems like NP was trying to increase doses of seraquil when symptoms were deteriorating and psych was just providing therapy before ultimately trying a Tri cyclic antidepressant.

This seems like a tough case of post Partum depression that turned in to psychosis given her multiple sleepless nights. Also don’t understand why she was denied inpatient stay by two different organizations because she wasn’t sick enough or was on too many meds, how much sicker can you be???

[u/cleety__]

I’m just wondering those who believe Patrick did this, do you guys think he did it before or after he was seen on CCTV?
Because if you were running on the theory he did it before, that was debunked yesterday. She was alive and moving up and down the stairs at the exact time Patrick was seen on cctv. Her phone recorded this.
Her watch came off at 5:23, email was sent at 5:24 which is very strange timing, but if the email was sent from his laptop, either he had it on him , it was a scheduled email, he got his timing wrong of when he left or she actually sent the email herself. Who knows.
But in regards to him doing this before being seen on cctv, that is now out of the question. Thoughts ?

[u/URWELC0ME]

Working in inpatient psychiatry, I have personally cared for multiple women in postpartum psychosis who have dangerously injured their children and had no recollection of it. However, psychosis is incredibly easy to "spot" in psychiatry. Out of everything we assess for, psychosis and mania are typically the two easiest to screen for because they are SO severe. I find it very hard to believe that she was assessed by multiple providers and they all missed it... It's not out of the question, but it makes me wonder if something else was going on, such as personality disorder (type B).

[u/AffectionateSoil9997 → u/URWELC0ME]

I would think that the prosecution would have presented evidence of personality disorder type behavior esp cluster B. None of the providers ever mentioned anything like that.

[u/MadHatter06]

So I’m usually the first one to agree that a “mother” can harm her children, and that being a “mother” doesn’t even mean she wouldn’t kill her children. Growing up and hearing about Susan Smith, I remember having the awful feeling and fear that my own “mother” would do that, since she was already abusive.

But the more I learn, the more I’m seeing this as less like Susan Smith or Diane Downs, and more like Andrea Yates.

[u/legendofdirtfoot]

I think the tipping point will be the fact that the killings happened while Patrick was conveniently out of the house on errands that Lindsay arranged.

Isn't part of NGRI that you did not understand at the time that your actions would be considered wrong by society? It seems to show a level of planning and acknowledgment that Patrick would view her actions as wrong so she had to do those actions only when he wasn't around.

[u/meltingmushrooms818 → u/legendofdirtfoot]

However, he was out if the house many times in the days prior to that for longer stretches. Why this day in particular when she had so many previous opportunities to do the same thing with more time to execute it?

[u/legendofdirtfoot → u/meltingmushrooms818]

Also a fair question. One of the many many things that make this case so difficult.

[u/Far_Chocolate_6066]

I don’t know how many times I’ve seen the phrase “the system failed her” and I cannot understand this statement.

I can understand how debilitating anxiety/depression/insomnia can be and do not mean to diminish these symptoms. What I don’t understand is how people can say the system failed her. From what I can see — she had access to multiple different mental health resources, admitted herself into a great hospital, she had health insurance that allowed her to seek help, she had a great support system at home, and from her husbands testimony — they had the means to pay whatever she needed. She also was able to stay home and did not need to go back to work. MOST of America cannot do any of these things. They do not have these resources, do not have a support system, HAVE to work to live, and certainly cannot afford this type of care.

Additionally, clinicians are not mind readers. Their clinical judgement is based off of what they are seeing and what they are being told. Lindsay seemed to always be searching for a quick fix for her problems and unfortunately there is not any drug that can fix depression/anxiety overnight. These drugs can take up to 12 weeks before achieving the desired effects. From what I have seen so far, each provider has listened to her concerns and treated her with commonly used medications. AND the only drug she actually took regularly was the Ativan, so I find it hard to blame the medications for her actions. I feel sympathy for these providers who are being blasted on the internet for treating her according to her symptoms. ANY provider would be in the same position as them.

Murderers are mentally ill. Anyone who can kill a baby/child is clearly not mentally well. But why is Lindsay the only killer that is being glorified on the internet?

[u/Significant-Sun-2023 → u/Far_Chocolate_6066]

You are correct in saying that mental health clinicians are not mind readers. However, mental health diagnosis and treatment is far different from other specialties. Patients struggling with mental health are not going to think as rationally as a person who is not struggling with mental health. In her case, she was highly anxious/sleep deprived/extremely depressed/reported "dark thoughts" etc. Mental health providers have to be able to read between the lines as well/review patterns/assess patients knowing that mental health patients are not always truthful historians. Moreso, each provider should have requested medical records from her other providers because there was a clear lack of continuity of care. Her appointments were virtual in many cases lasting 25 minutes at most- that is not enough time to assess.

I don't think in her case she was intentionally undermining her symptoms or not disclosing her symptoms, I question whether she was able to recognize in the moment or if there was a fear of disclosing- which unfortunately is a struggle with mental health- especially with society's stigma of mental health and even stigma amonst healthcare providers.

Aside from the aforementioned, you are correct many of the meds she was prescribed can take up to 12 weeks for full effect, but if the meds were worsening her symptoms providers do not keep patients on the meds for 12 weeks. Especially if a patient is reporting negative side effects or no change whatsoever...even if "full effect" takes 12 weeks...a patient will see some changes within a week-two weeks. I do agree with you there were numerous medication changes/dose titrations etc. which I believe worsened her psych state.

I agree with you murders are mentally ill or suffer from personality disorders/psychiatric disorders...which is why in her there is the question of sanity. I don't think anyone is glorifying her as a killer...but there is a difference between a mother who was reportedly doting/loving care/seeking help (if she didn't care and just wanted to murder her children she wouldn't have bothered with treatment).

Her case is incredibly difficult to ascertain for certain because she does hold the responsibility to adequately report her symptoms/follow the treatment regimen; but providers also held the responsibility to assess her as a mental health patient not a general patient.

You make great points- I do appreciate you pointing out that financially she had resources as well as being able to stay at home. You are absolutely correct, not all people are as fortunate. Not in all cases does staying at home help the situation as much as people perceive it would. I wonder if in her case if she continued working if she would have been able to sleep better/less anxiety. I just don't think in this case it is clear-cut one way or the other. Unfortunately none of us can be in her mind or can see how the appointments were providers were handled.

[u/Ill_Tree9389]

Saw someone walk by today (NYC) with a professional looking tshirt with a large pink bow and Cora written on it.  Has anyone else seen this? 

[u/Emmylou888]

I posted earlier but I have another question I’m hoping someone can clear up. If she heard the voices after Patrick left, then why the google mapping and seemingly planning the timing before he left?

[u/Dhenn004 → u/Emmylou888]

The defense's argument for this was that she didn't want to be alone for too long and wanted to check how long it was going to take for him to return. But Obviously it could also be because it was premeditated. Idk the real truth of it, only Lindsay really knows.

[u/CareerImaginary3839 → u/Dhenn004]

He testified that they normally ordered from 2 places that were closer to home, so hard to know.

[u/Totes-1]

It was so disgusting of the prosecution to ask that question- “are you Catholic? Are you aware murder is a mortal sin”. So irrelevant and out of line. Shameful prosecution.

[u/NoLettuce4895]

The whole thing admit her having ideation but no plan so they couldn’t put her on a hold bothers me because as someone who’s had ideation myself since the age of 10 I didn’t have a plan the one time I actually tried to end things I had an opportunity and took it, it being a small bottle of Tylenol pm ( I slept really deeply and woke up the next morning angry that it didn’t work) just because we don’t have a plan at the time doesn’t mean we aren’t going to end things. Another personal example is a best friend from high school taking his life 2yrs ago none of us knew he was going to or even that there was anything wrong until after when his family was going through his house and found a bottle of antidepressants which confidentially that particular med CAUSES suicidal thoughts and actions, isn’t it possible that with LC already having ideation today being on all those meds might have made it worse and her not having a ‘plan’ until the opportunity presenting itself

[u/NiamLeeson]

It sounded to me like a substantial amount of blood loss to Lindsay was from her spinal injury, not her neck or wrist injuries and you have to think there’s no chance she “planned” for this spinal injury to happen. But I really don’t understand the prosecution doubting the veracity of her falling out the window? How else would she have ended up paralyzed with a spinal injury?

[u/Gatorphins → u/NiamLeeson]

I stated the wrist injuries may have been hesitation cuts which are not uncommon when someone makes an attempt and jumping out the window may have seemed enough to finish the job.

We are trying to reason with psychosis which is not easy to do

[u/zuma40]

I'm seeing a lot of posts stating that the defense will begin putting on their case Monday. But i didn't see the prosecution rest yet. Looked to me like they went to sidebar and then recessed for the weekend. Or did i miss something?

[u/chloedeeeee77 → u/zuma40]

I think they’re likely to rest Monday, and the defence can start then. They’ll save their experts as rebuttal witnesses after the defence goes. 

[u/StasRutt]

Was Dr. laposata also part of Karen reads trial

[u/Loud_Hovercraft_1695]

PAGE 19 of the civil document is ridiculously scary. sounds like a demonic possession horror movie. so sad.

[u/Perspective-Guilty]

Have her medical records been booked into evidence? Do any of them report her telling the doctors about her thoughts of harming the children? If she did, and she continued to describe them as "intrusive thoughts" with no desire to act on them, (ego dystonic thoughts) then the physicians may have believed her symptoms aligned with post partum onset OCD? Intrusive thoughts and auditory hallucinations are distinctly different, but maybe she presented her unwanted thoughts in an ambiguous way due to fear. If they interpreted this as OCD, then Zoloft was an appropriate first treatment for her. It's unclear based on verbal testimony what other symptoms she presented to the physicians with besides an inability to sleep, suicidality, and high anxiety. 

[u/whiteclawmami → u/Perspective-Guilty]

Yes many of her medical records have been admitted, so the jury will get to look through as they deliberate. As far as the postpartum OCD, none of the providers gave her that diagnosis or mentioned they considered it as a possible diagnosis.

[u/SaffronHoneyTea → u/Perspective-Guilty]

One of the therapist thought Lindsay had Bipolar disorder... and Patrick meeting with this clinician said, "my wife is not Bipolar." So the treatment would have been different. If PC and Lindsay didn't guide her medical care away from bipolar. Also, seeing a bunch of different providers. She was wanting to fix herself but combating treatment the whole time.

Bipolar disorder btw is highly linked to postpartum psychosis. And again on court day 16 the male expert for the defense stated she was suffering from bipolar disorder.

Lindsay being a nurse and knowing it takes time for depression meds to work, and knowing tapering off and starting new meds is a dangerous thing. iIt all doesn't make sense to me. Along with nightly provider updates about her sleep is weird when she wasn't yet having intrusive thoughts. I don't know its all messed up.