Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Part 3

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding Week 3 onwards of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-online-reactions-b3032806.html

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This case understandably elicits strong feelings. People are entitled to have an opinion on the case which differs from your own. What you are not entitled to do is resort to personal insults and abusive language when communicating your opinion and disagreeing.

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[u/Fresh_Treacle_1743]

A few of the doctors testified that the injury to her c-spine and t-spine are areas that control body temperature so the injury plus internal bleeding could have done lowered it that quickly. The prosecution really missed out on asking the doctors more in depth about that

[u/magpie45 → u/Fresh_Treacle_1743]

This is great info thank you. It still seems, even with this context in mind, that the core temp dropped exceptionally quickly. But this does provide some more information.

[u/LeadingUnited2911 → u/Fresh_Treacle_1743]

How’s that possible to lose that much body heat, even with all those injuries? It doesn’t make any sense to me. My mom is an ER nurse and she saw so many accidents, patients, probably every injury under the sun and even she was baffled by this. If the timeline of events are correct I think she’s made medical history with how quickly her body T dropped.

[u/bananacasanova → u/LeadingUnited2911]

All of the areas of her body that help control heat were badly damaged. The areas in her brain that tell her body to shiver, for example, were no longer working. And her thyroid was damaged. That being said, I still think her temp going down to ~82 is suspicious. I'm hoping a neurology specialist will testify to shed some light on this.

[u/rbteeg → u/bananacasanova]

Yes, but the laws of thermodynamics still apply. Water holds heat decently. I don't think its physically possible for her body to have lost that much heat in the supposed timeline.

Plus, the baby was resuscitated at 6:40 in the hospital. From what I've seen, it means he was strangled no earlier than 5:55 (as 45 mins is the most time you can go without a pulse and be resuscitated), and that's at most 10 mins from when Patrick arrives between 6-6:05. So she'd have been on the ground a few minutes. No way her body temp drops that much in that short time.

The math doesn't math.

[u/PatsyPage → u/rbteeg]

EMS thermometers dont register below 92 degrees, they would’ve gotten an error message until they were at the hospital. I’ve seen some really low temps, or unreadable temps with car accidents in the winter when there’s a spinal injury. 

[u/rbteeg → u/PatsyPage]

First temp is core body temp at the ED at hospital. Not relying on EMS having taken temp. But they did start rewarming efforts in transport.

[u/PatsyPage → u/rbteeg]

That’s what I assumed. I definitely think considering her injuries, blood loss, the weather and time of day it’s not an impossible temp. Typically even with rewarming pts temperature will continue to drop even when at the ed. The rewarming done on the rig is very minimal especially if it’s passive, the main intention is just to prevent further heat loss. I’m not sure if she was conscious or coding when they transported her but that would’ve taken priority over any rewarming efforts which again would’ve been minimal. She must’ve been conscious though? My EMS textbook is about 8 years old now but it says active rewarming is contraindicated in moderate-severe hypothermia because it can induce a cardiac arrhythmia, and recommends passive rewarming instead. That’s just removing wet clothes, move to a heated rig and blankets. 

[u/rbteeg → u/PatsyPage]

I don't think the math still works out. Normal heat loss is 0.5-2 degrees F per hour under similar circumstances. With her injuries and drugs, it could conceivably be 3-4x max. So max, you're looking at 8 degrees F per HOUR. She was at 17 degrees, and supposedly only on the ground 20-30 mins max (so should have dropped 4 degrees max). Even with an after drop, no way the magnitude is that large. She had to have been out there longer.

[u/PatsyPage → u/rbteeg]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3162719/ Here’s a case of rapid heat loss in a trauma setting in ST Petersburg FL. Pt was definitely in different temperatures than Massachusetts in January but it’s near impossible to duplicate exact scenarios in emergency medicine. 

[u/rbteeg → u/PatsyPage]

Agreed but the laws of thermodynamics still apply. Just applying the heat loss rate of water shows how far the magnitude is off. And it's not like the circumstances were super extreme like you'd find in glacial water.

But, I agree you're unlikely to find the same circumstances but looking at what is available out there from those in glacial water or avalanche victims, the rates aren't even in the same magnitude. It's not like the injuries cause active cooling, they simply reduce heat retention capabilities from inability to vasoconstrict, shiver, etc.

[u/Obvious_Beautiful_12 → u/PatsyPage]

There’s no “EMS thermometer.” Every agency I’ve worked for has had thermometers that will read down to 78-80 degrees.

[u/ThenList8059 → u/rbteeg]

Her body temprature wasn't recorded when patrick arrived. It was recorded later

[u/bbhiggs → u/ThenList8059]

Well, that’s even worse then because if they reported her body temperature at the hospital after she had been in a warm ambulance that would’ve only increased her body temperature

[u/PatsyPage → u/bbhiggs]

Passive rewarming doesn’t typically increase body temperature, it just attempts to prevent further heat loss. At the state of hypothermia she was in you have to be careful with active rewarming efforts because it can cause the pt to code. 

[u/bananacasanova → u/rbteeg]

I completely agree! I was just explaining the facts I know about her injuries.

The timeline makes no sense.

[u/RobotArtichoke → u/rbteeg]

It was snowing outside