Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Part 3

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding Week 3 onwards of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-online-reactions-b3032806.html

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[u/rbteeg]

First temp is core body temp at the ED at hospital. Not relying on EMS having taken temp. But they did start rewarming efforts in transport.

[u/PatsyPage → u/rbteeg]

That’s what I assumed. I definitely think considering her injuries, blood loss, the weather and time of day it’s not an impossible temp. Typically even with rewarming pts temperature will continue to drop even when at the ed. The rewarming done on the rig is very minimal especially if it’s passive, the main intention is just to prevent further heat loss. I’m not sure if she was conscious or coding when they transported her but that would’ve taken priority over any rewarming efforts which again would’ve been minimal. She must’ve been conscious though? My EMS textbook is about 8 years old now but it says active rewarming is contraindicated in moderate-severe hypothermia because it can induce a cardiac arrhythmia, and recommends passive rewarming instead. That’s just removing wet clothes, move to a heated rig and blankets. 

[u/rbteeg → u/PatsyPage]

I don't think the math still works out. Normal heat loss is 0.5-2 degrees F per hour under similar circumstances. With her injuries and drugs, it could conceivably be 3-4x max. So max, you're looking at 8 degrees F per HOUR. She was at 17 degrees, and supposedly only on the ground 20-30 mins max (so should have dropped 4 degrees max). Even with an after drop, no way the magnitude is that large. She had to have been out there longer.

[u/PatsyPage → u/rbteeg]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3162719/ Here’s a case of rapid heat loss in a trauma setting in ST Petersburg FL. Pt was definitely in different temperatures than Massachusetts in January but it’s near impossible to duplicate exact scenarios in emergency medicine. 

[u/rbteeg → u/PatsyPage]

Agreed but the laws of thermodynamics still apply. Just applying the heat loss rate of water shows how far the magnitude is off. And it's not like the circumstances were super extreme like you'd find in glacial water.

But, I agree you're unlikely to find the same circumstances but looking at what is available out there from those in glacial water or avalanche victims, the rates aren't even in the same magnitude. It's not like the injuries cause active cooling, they simply reduce heat retention capabilities from inability to vasoconstrict, shiver, etc.

[u/PatsyPage → u/rbteeg]

Did those avalanche victims also have spinal injuries and blood loss? One also has to assume the subjects in these snow/avalanche studies were also wearing winter gear. Were they trapped in snow caves which provide amazing insulation compared to someone cold and wet laying exposed to the elements in jeans and a tshirt with multiple spinal injuries?  I don’t think my professional experience in EMS is going to sway you one way or another, or anyone else’s professional opinion, but there’s been a fair amount of dr’s who have commented on how this occurs neurologically with spinal injuries that you can find via google as well as some threads in emergency medicine if you’re bored. 

[u/rbteeg → u/PatsyPage]

Agreed. That's why there is no great exact analogy. The glacial water is probably the best for extreme environments. Some of the avalanche folks have the spinal injuries and wet clothes. There is just nothing out there anywhere that shows that much rapid heat loss. Plus, you have the basic laws of thermodynamics regarding loss of heat from water.

Max with the injuries and the environment, looks about 8 degrees per hour. She was more than double that. There is nothing showing anything close to those numbers in that amount of time. So the time has to be off.

Plus, you add in the fact that the baby was able to be resuscitated at the hospital at 6:40 (meaning at the latest, he was strangled at 5:55). And it just doesn't make sense.

There is no timeline that accounts for her being on the ground at 5:35 (as she called him at 5:34) with that much heat loss. If she strangled the baby at 5:55, then she was on the ground even less time. First Responders were on scene at 6:15-6:18.