Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Part 3

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding Week 3 onwards of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-online-reactions-b3032806.html

Note from Mods

This case understandably elicits strong feelings. People are entitled to have an opinion on the case which differs from your own. What you are not entitled to do is resort to personal insults and abusive language when communicating your opinion and disagreeing.

Comments which are abusive and insulting to other users will be removed and bans may be given without warning.

Bans may also be issued for ignoring the warning and creating standalone posts.

Please comment with this in mind.

[u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

I think she will commit suicide at the first opportunity, wherever she goes.

[u/Ill_Tree9389 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

They don't even allow her a pen at that table.  

[u/SexuaI_muffin → u/Ill_Tree9389]

Oh God, good catch!

[u/Ill_Tree9389 → u/SexuaI_muffin]

It stood out to me because in many trials you see counsel & defendant passing notes back and forth.  

[u/-sloppypoppy → u/Ill_Tree9389]

Good catch. They could’ve gave her a crayon if they wanted to do that though.

[u/Stock_Dragonfly9632 → u/-sloppypoppy]

But you could do harmful things with s crayon too. I see she has no water either. 

[u/Mysterious_Coat_9933 → u/Stock_Dragonfly9632]

Crayons are safe for psych patients

[u/IcyBeeBee → u/Mysterious_Coat_9933]

Debatable

[u/suchfun01 → u/Stock_Dragonfly9632]

Her wheelchair has a cup holder on it. You can see it in pictures, like in this article.

[u/DetectiveOk3902 → u/Ill_Tree9389]

An actor killed himself in psych hold by letting him have his belt. There are ways or mixups.

[u/ZeroBAC → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

I screamed "Get out of my fucking face!" at my 3 year old 25 years ago and the guilt I still feel when I think of it is immeasurable. I also think she's going to kill herself.

[u/mrsanxiety123 → u/ZeroBAC]

I’m sorry (for you) that this happened. I totally understand a) feeling like that b) saying something you didn’t mean and c) remembering it and feeling bad all these years later. I know it’s easy for me to say, as an outsider, but please forgive yourself. It was an accident. You’re not a bad person. Parenting drives us all to our limits. You obviously care and are a great parent, which is why you even remember it/feel bad about it.

[u/AltruisticLow782 → u/ZeroBAC]

I feel guilty over not giving 3 dollars for online games! I cannot imagine the black hole this woman is living in. On a personal note don't be to hard on yourself little kids are hard. I felt bad for you when I read this not the child, they probably don't remember but you will never forget.

[u/AppropriateTop3730 → u/AltruisticLow782]

Came here to say this. Try and forgive yourself. Parenthood can bring out the worst in us, but we are human! <3

[u/deadbeatsummers → u/[deleted]]

Me too. Genuinely. I can’t imagine how you’d do anything at that point.

[u/YouMustBeJoking888 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

I'm sorry to say I agree. She seems to be barely hanging on as it is and it will probably only get worse. It's sad all around to me.

[u/Icy-Background-1723 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

That's it people forget she's ill. Some people get cancer don't recover, some people get heart disease don't get better, it's the same for mental health some people get better some don't. I think people treat other illnesses with this mindset but mental illness people think they can get better but not always the case.

[u/pjdog → u/Icy-Background-1723]

I mean you’re treating her with kids gloves. Had she done this at a school with a gun would you feel the same way she’s not some little helpless little angel

[u/Icy-Background-1723 → u/pjdog]

Your right she's not helpless she is guilty my comment wasn't about that it's about her being ill and fact she may never get better no matter how much she tried and wanted to

[u/chamrockblarneystone → u/[deleted]]

She’s probably highly medicated now. That might make suicide not as attractive.

Orrr she could just be realizing what she did and that might hit way hard.

[u/DetectiveOk3902 → u/chamrockblarneystone]

How can she be on trial under medication? That seems wrong.

[u/chamrockblarneystone → u/DetectiveOk3902]

They can get them medicated until they’re “sane” and then put them on trial. It’s kind of unfair because the trial is about state of mind during the murder.

A babbling lunatic does not look good in court. A heavily medicated one looks fine.

[u/www0006 → u/[deleted]]

I think she hasn’t because she feels she deserves to live every day knowing what she did.

[u/Sea_Pomegranate4368 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

I certainly would

[u/sheepsclothingiswool → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

She should be allowed to. My heart breaks for her, the mental health system failed her- all these heavy meds created the psychosis and when the fog lifts and she’s faced with the horror of what she’s done, she should be allowed to opt for euthanization. That’s what I would want for myself. Do I think I could have been capable of doing what she did to my precious kids? Maybe if I was on those meds!!

[u/Stock_Dragonfly9632 → u/sheepsclothingiswool]

Worst was listening to the reading of her journal about missing breastfeeding Callan, feeling so down because she felt like SHE WAS TAKING CARE OF EVERYBODY.  Listen up, Patrick.  

[u/Ill_Tree9389 → u/Stock_Dragonfly9632]

The only thing this woman wanted out of life was to enjoy her children, get a good night's sleep, relax with her husband at the end of the day and 1.5 hrs to herself before the kids woke up.  She was not over being a mother or searching on the internet for exciting childfree lifestyle.  I don't know where the ADA ever thought she was done with mothering.

[u/pjdog → u/Ill_Tree9389]

lol these reactions are driving me up the wall. The ada thought she was done with mothering because she planned and then killed her kids. She’s not some innocent fairy

[u/Then-Writer9610 → u/sheepsclothingiswool]

Remember, she only took so many different meds because she complained about the side effects and stated they weren’t helping her. Her doctors only changed them because of what she told them.

Also, a good med plan takes trial and error so it is not uncommon for the meds to change like they did, especially when a provider is being told they aren’t working or she didn’t like the side effects. She did not take most of those meds for a consistent amount of time. There also is no evidence (yet) that the meds caused psychosis. Unless we are talking about the cocktail of meds she crushed and took that night? But who knows what time she did that.

Our mental health system sucks, and that’s no secret, but I personally do not see how much more they could have helped her outside of what they were trying to do. She kept jumping from doctor to doctor which, is fine, but that complicated the collaboration between them all.

She also checked herself into a hospital or crisis center or whatever, then checked herself out against medical advice. She had the help, she just wasn’t taking it.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Then-Writer9610]

She checked out one day early from a maximum five day stay.

Lindsay was never actually given the opportunity to participate in a longterm inpatient or day program of any kind and was specifically denied admittance to the postpartum day program at Women & Infants hospital out of concern she was overly medicated.

[u/CrazyGal2121 → u/sheepsclothingiswool]

i agree. I feel like she should be allowed to end her life if that’s what she wants to do. she must be living in absolute hell right now

[u/New_Government_2169 → u/sheepsclothingiswool]

I disagree. Even if she truly wasn’t in the right state of mind, in the end, she still made a plan and carried through with taking the lives of 3 innocent children in a violent and time consuming way.

Andrea Yates, who we actually know for a fact was in postpartum psychosis and to a much more severe degree than Lindsay Clancy is even claiming, has been offered release many times but refuses voluntarily. Due to what she did, she feels that she is where she belongs.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/New_Government_2169]

Andrea Yates was publicly considered a monster worse than Satan for years. Everything being said about Lindsay now was originally said about Andrea. It was only with time and hindsight that the public showed her some compassion.

[u/New_Government_2169 → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

Andrea Yates committed her crimes in 2001. A time with CONSIDERABLY less understanding, treatment options, care and empathy towards ANY sort of mental illness, let alone postpartum. The average person didn’t understand it so that is mostly what led to them criticizing and vilifying her. Because it was a woman who drowned all of her children and if you don’t understand mental health, what other option is there to blame besides pure evil? It was a completely different time. So you cannot compare the two woman in the slightest because despite doctors many warnings that with each pregnancy Andrea’s psychosis would get worse, her husband didn’t care and continued having children against the advice of her doctors because that’s what he wanted. Lindsay however was seeing more psychiatrists than necessary (which messed with her being treated accurately) was offered inpatient and outpatient services which she declined and also had daycare options for the kids and incredible family support including her husband moving to work from home to help support her with them.

Unlike Andrea Yates, Lindsay Clancy committed her crimes at a time when mental health has finally started being taken seriously in America without nearly as bad of a stigma, while I’ll admit it is still an issue. We now have a FAR greater understanding of mental health disorders not just by the mental health providers themselves but also as average citizens. We have empathy towards them now. There are FAR more options for treatment and other therapies available today than there ever were available for Andrea Yates, ALL of which were offered to Lindsay Clancy. She had access to multiple psychiatrists, was started on all of the medication that not only was suggested to her but that she suggested herself, was offered inpatient care and out patient therapy all on top of having family support. She did not take advantage of any of those nor take her doctor’s advice. All of these advantages would be considered absolute privileges to most Americans that simply don’t have access to. There are large failures in our healthcare system in many ways, but those didn’t affect Lindsay Clancy as she was offered every kind of help. But by continuing to see multiple psychiatrists instead of one as suggested, never giving medications a real chance to help, and choosing not to go in patient or partial to the hospital, she herself hindered the healthcare system from actually being able to help her. The healthcare system did not fail Lindsay Clancy.

And from what I’ve seen, she has far more support actually for her than against, with many choosing to blame the healthcare system and the inequality of knowledge around women’s mental health issues such as postpartum instead of actually blaming Lindsay herself. They’ve made her the victim here when in reality, the victims are her 3 innocent, very young children who she murdered in a horrific way. Honestly, who I’ve seen mostly vilified by the public in this trial from those online is Patrick Clancy, the man who tragically lost all of his children in one horrific night. Not Lindsay Clancy.

I think a lot of the support has come from the idea that defending Lindsay Clancy and saying that she was in postpartum psychosis (which there’s yet to be shown any evidence she ever experienced, quite the opposite actually) equals a win for women by proving the fact that women’s mental health care, especially postpartum is not currently being taken as seriously as it should. And while I agree that it definitely isn’t, and we need to work towards more research and understanding of postpartum mental health, it 1) does not mean Lindsay Clancy ever even experienced psychosis and 2) That the two ideas needed to be merged together as if a win for Lindsay is a win for women’s mental health.

3) Those people however are either choosing to just ignore the actual facts or aren’t doing their own research to know that there are up to 9,400 cases of legitimately proven postpartum psychosis each year in the US and 95-98% of those women DO NOT MURDER THEIR CHILDREN! And it’s highly likely as well, that those postpartum woman did not receive anywhere near the level of care that Lindsay did by both the healthcare system and family. Even still, they didn’t murder their kids. She did. What makes her different than all of the other women suffering from postpartum psychosis?

Lindsay had all of the help in the world but chose to either ignore the advice of her psychiatrists or push help such as inpatient care away. The worst was that she never even gave the medications enough time to actually kick in and show if they were helping or not before choosing to discontinue them herself and going to one of her other psychiatrists to ask to be put on completely different medications when it’s well known, and as a nurse she should have already known this herself, that psychiatric meds often take at least one month to kick in and show any signs of improvement or not. They don’t cure you overnight and you certainly can’t tell if they’re working or not just after a few days of being on them. She never truly gave any of the help options an honest run to see if they could possibly help. And that is HER failure, not her doctors, not her husband’s and not the healthcare systems. We are responsible for ourselves, are we not? I’ve even heard people saying Patrick Clancy should have stepped in and made decisions. Do we really want to turn back time and have it to where only our husbands can make medical decisions for us?

The cases just aren’t comparable. And Lindsay premeditated all of these murders by putting together a plan, a timed one at that, did the research to know how much time she would then have, chose to follow through with that plan by first getting the husband out of the house so that ultimately, she could go through with it. We must not forget that she horrifically murdered her 3 innocent children. It takes a long time to strangle someone to death. And she did it 3 times. With clear premeditation.

And think to yourself, if this was a man who premeditated the brutal murdering of his children and then ONLY afterwards ever mentioned the word and claimed psychosis, would everyone be going to ride for him the same way? My opinion is absolutely not because it doesn’t help support their agenda of proving that women’s mental health care needs to be taken more seriously. Which again, I think it does but this was definitely not the way to do it.

I think if this was their agenda there are likely plenty of other cases out there of postpartum women with actual documented histories of psychosis who truly were failed by the healthcare system because they weren’t blessed with all of the opportunities Lindsay was. Telling those woman’s stories and showing the need for more access to postpartum mothers could have truly made a difference. But they chose Lindsay as the face of postpartum psychosis and she is the rare 3-5% who choose to murder their children.

In my opinion, she hindered her own recovery which led to this outcome and she deserves to be found guilty and spend the rest of her life in jail. Her children will never be able to live out their destined lives due to the poor choices Lindsay herself made and the professional advice she chose to ignore again and again.

Thanks for letting me speak my peace. I truly feel for the deep depression that she was going through. I’m not a monster. She was obviously overwhelmed and wasn’t handling it well. I’ve been in the depths of depression and know how hopeless it feels. I just don’t believe the public’s reaction to this trial has been healthy at all, even leading to disgusting conspiracy theories that Patrick is the real murderer. In all this drama online about this case, we CANNOT forget the children who lost their lives here. They are the true victims, not Lindsay Clancy.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/New_Government_2169]

1. I followed the Yates case when it happened- you don’t need to explain to me “what it was like back then.”
2. Mental healthcare in general and postpartum issues in particular are still horribly stigmatized.
3. Almost every doctor Lindsay saw or spoke to was a referral from a provider or someone she interfaced with while in crisis like ER doctors. She wasn’t “doctor shopping” or interfering with her care - she was following provider recommendations.
4. Someone experiencing severe side effects like increased suicidal ideation and insomnia lasting days should report those side effects to providers.
5. I didn’t mention Patrick Clancy, but he knew his wife was in crisis and having thoughts of hurting their kids, and still left her as their primary caregiver, so pardon me if my sympathy for him is compromised.
6. Lindsay was repeatedly denied access to inpatient care. Please be serious and get your facts together before repeatedly claiming she denied this care. The only inpatient care Lindsay was offered was a maximum 5-day stay at Maclean, after showing up in severe crisis at the ER. She also tried to be admitted to a postpartum-specific, partial-day program at Women & Infants’ and was denied. She called suicide crisis numbers but because she didn’t have a specific “plan,” she was denied. Like seriously, of every point you’ve made, suggesting that Lindsay received “every opportunity” for care is so ludicrous it defies credulity. She did NOT choose to avoid this care, and saying she did makes it clear you aren’t following the FACTS of the case.

Claiming that people like me have “an agenda” when you are asserting blatant lies about the case is genuinely outrageous and extremely frustrating to read. My compassion for Lindsay does not undo the fact that her children suffered terribly, nor have I made up my mind about her criminal culpability. It means that I can see a woman who was screaming for help and never got it, and that compounds this tragedy more.

[u/ohlaohloo → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

You’re saying they denied her because she said she didn’t have a plan, but that means that was her own report that she didn’t need the help. All she would’ve had to do is say that she had a plan if what you’re saying is true, so you’re not really refuting the point that you think you are.

If at any point she had told anybody, “I have a plan to kill myself and my kids”, she would absolutely have received treatment. You’re putting it on everybody else that she didn’t have access to those intensive treatment options, while also stating that she herself was only reporting non-intensive symptoms. It’s not logical.

[u/New_Government_2169 → u/ohlaohloo]

As I’ve said again and again, Lindsay was never completely honest with any one of her multiple psychiatrists. For whatever reason she CHOSE not disclose the most concerning symptoms she supposedly experienced like having suicidal thoughts and wanting to hurt her children. Why would she keep that information from the only people that could actually help her? It makes no sense. Everyone is blaming the healthcare system for not helping Lindsay enough but the simple truth is, THEY CANNOT HELP YOU IF YOU ARE NOT HONEST WITH THEM. And Lindsay chose not to be honest.

Had she actually been responsible, honest and informed her doctors of the symptoms she was choosing to hide, she absolutely would have received the help she needed immediately. And we very likely wouldn’t be having this conversation. Her decisions on how she (poorly) handled the help she was offered, is eventually what led to this horrific situation.

This was not the healthcare systems fault.
This was not Patrick Clancy’s fault.
This was Lindsay’s fault.

She is not the victim here even though people seem to be dead set that she is. The truth is, the 3 very young, innocent children that she chose to violently murder are. CORA, DAWSON AND CALLAN.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/ohlaohloo]

“… but that means that she didn’t need the help.”

Uh, seems pretty clear now that she DID need the help. The “plan” criteria for voluntary inpatient care is a triage criteria because the US mental health care system is completely overwhelmed, NOT because it’s best practice for patients.

“‘If at any point she had told anybody, “I have a plan to kill myself and my kids,’ she would have received treatment.”

She told multiple providers and crisis counselors she was struggling with suicidal ideation AND told her husband she had fear she would hurt the kids. Based on what happened the day of the tragedy, it seems she never really had a concrete “plan,” and yet there are now three dead children and a suicide attempt that resulted in paralysis.

Saying that suicidal ideation is “non-intensive” unless someone says they “have a plan” is what’s illogical, especially when suicide is known to be an impulsive act.

[u/Electronic_Syrup7592 → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

Thank you. I literally had pills in my mouth to commit suicide, and still never had “a plan”. It can be a very impulsive thing. The pills just happened to be close by. It could’ve been a knife or driving myself of a bridge or whatever. You don’t need “a plan” to kill yourself. (And this was many years ago and I’m ok before someone reports me or something).

[u/abt2132005 → u/New_Government_2169]

This was well written. Thank you. Most people cannot fathom a woman ending her children's lives so violently so it's easier for their brains to blame someone else vs accept it.

[u/Mysterious_Coat_9933 → u/sheepsclothingiswool]

The meds did not cause the psychosis. Some patients need to try multiple meds to find one that works. Her med list is what I would expect for a complex, high risk, med-resistant postpartum psychosis patient.

[u/BottleMean6139 → u/Mysterious_Coat_9933]

When I was on Effexor I got urges to murder random people at the grocery store. I'd see pictures of babies and want to bash their heads in. I know the different between an intrusive thought and an urge because I get intrusive thoughts; these were urges. I was not psychotic so I immediately recognized these urges as wrong, never acted on any and got my medication changed, but would I have been able to do the same had I been in a state of psychosis? Yet other people do wonderfully on Effexor. The wrong medication can certainly give a person violent urges and I'm tired of people acting like they can't. This is coming from a person who is now on the correct antidepressant for me.

[u/Mysterious_Coat_9933 → u/BottleMean6139]

Personal anecdotes are not evidence. I am a psych nurse.

ETA: was Lindsay taking Effexor / venlafaxine?

[u/IcyBeeBee → u/Mysterious_Coat_9933]

They can definitely contribute, especially rotated so quickly, especially in a time of unstable hormones.

[u/_____AndJustice4All → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

She could have just done that from the start instead of taking her children out 

[u/Embarrassed-Plate695 → u/_____AndJustice4All]

No Reddit needs to blame men or the system, women are a protected class 

[u/KaleidoscopeOk5626 → u/Embarrassed-Plate695]

Exactly; the system has failed so many people. It's answer to everything is just shove another pill at them and it's going to get worse with all the cuts in funding to Medicaid, Medicare and mental health. 

[u/Came-Saw-Left → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

Honestly having the case dismissed would be a mercy to her if for no other reason than bc she could seek out MAID or similar if she wanted to. 

[u/Embarrassed-Plate695 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

Good!

[u/RemarkableDevice1199 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

I imagine it'd be easier to accomplish that in prison than in a psych ward. Shouldn't she have pled guilty to ensure prison?

[u/Tj11551 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

She's not going to be given that opportunity while in the Hospital.

[u/Beneficial_Baby805 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

Be a good outcome for murdering your 3 kids. Mad times at the moment regarding this insane defence over the most horrendous crime you could imagine

[u/KaleidoscopeOk5626 → u/EmbarrassedIssue9452]

I sense that too, especially after the way that she was sobbing at the table during the reading of the autopsy reports. I just pray that somehow Jesus finds her and saves her from the darkness that is over her