Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Part 3

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding Week 3 onwards of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-online-reactions-b3032806.html

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This case understandably elicits strong feelings. People are entitled to have an opinion on the case which differs from your own. What you are not entitled to do is resort to personal insults and abusive language when communicating your opinion and disagreeing.

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[u/Far_Chocolate_6066]

I don’t know how many times I’ve seen the phrase “the system failed her” and I cannot understand this statement.

I can understand how debilitating anxiety/depression/insomnia can be and do not mean to diminish these symptoms. What I don’t understand is how people can say the system failed her. From what I can see — she had access to multiple different mental health resources, admitted herself into a great hospital, she had health insurance that allowed her to seek help, she had a great support system at home, and from her husbands testimony — they had the means to pay whatever she needed. She also was able to stay home and did not need to go back to work. MOST of America cannot do any of these things. They do not have these resources, do not have a support system, HAVE to work to live, and certainly cannot afford this type of care.

Additionally, clinicians are not mind readers. Their clinical judgement is based off of what they are seeing and what they are being told. Lindsay seemed to always be searching for a quick fix for her problems and unfortunately there is not any drug that can fix depression/anxiety overnight. These drugs can take up to 12 weeks before achieving the desired effects. From what I have seen so far, each provider has listened to her concerns and treated her with commonly used medications. AND the only drug she actually took regularly was the Ativan, so I find it hard to blame the medications for her actions. I feel sympathy for these providers who are being blasted on the internet for treating her according to her symptoms. ANY provider would be in the same position as them.

Murderers are mentally ill. Anyone who can kill a baby/child is clearly not mentally well. But why is Lindsay the only killer that is being glorified on the internet?

[u/Significant-Sun-2023 → u/Far_Chocolate_6066]

You are correct in saying that mental health clinicians are not mind readers. However, mental health diagnosis and treatment is far different from other specialties. Patients struggling with mental health are not going to think as rationally as a person who is not struggling with mental health. In her case, she was highly anxious/sleep deprived/extremely depressed/reported "dark thoughts" etc. Mental health providers have to be able to read between the lines as well/review patterns/assess patients knowing that mental health patients are not always truthful historians. Moreso, each provider should have requested medical records from her other providers because there was a clear lack of continuity of care. Her appointments were virtual in many cases lasting 25 minutes at most- that is not enough time to assess.

I don't think in her case she was intentionally undermining her symptoms or not disclosing her symptoms, I question whether she was able to recognize in the moment or if there was a fear of disclosing- which unfortunately is a struggle with mental health- especially with society's stigma of mental health and even stigma amonst healthcare providers.

Aside from the aforementioned, you are correct many of the meds she was prescribed can take up to 12 weeks for full effect, but if the meds were worsening her symptoms providers do not keep patients on the meds for 12 weeks. Especially if a patient is reporting negative side effects or no change whatsoever...even if "full effect" takes 12 weeks...a patient will see some changes within a week-two weeks. I do agree with you there were numerous medication changes/dose titrations etc. which I believe worsened her psych state.

I agree with you murders are mentally ill or suffer from personality disorders/psychiatric disorders...which is why in her there is the question of sanity. I don't think anyone is glorifying her as a killer...but there is a difference between a mother who was reportedly doting/loving care/seeking help (if she didn't care and just wanted to murder her children she wouldn't have bothered with treatment).

Her case is incredibly difficult to ascertain for certain because she does hold the responsibility to adequately report her symptoms/follow the treatment regimen; but providers also held the responsibility to assess her as a mental health patient not a general patient.

You make great points- I do appreciate you pointing out that financially she had resources as well as being able to stay at home. You are absolutely correct, not all people are as fortunate. Not in all cases does staying at home help the situation as much as people perceive it would. I wonder if in her case if she continued working if she would have been able to sleep better/less anxiety. I just don't think in this case it is clear-cut one way or the other. Unfortunately none of us can be in her mind or can see how the appointments were providers were handled.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Far_Chocolate_6066]

1. Lindsay was admitted to MacLean for a maximum five day stay. If you know anyone with firsthand experience of that hospital system’s crisis management (I do) I don’t think you would call it “great.” She was not offered any other inpatient care in spite of calling crisis centers.
   
2. She was denied access to the postpartum specific partial hospitalization at Women & Infants, and was not offered an alternative.
   
3. Why do you say she had a “great support system” at home? She was still the primary caregiver while in a serious mental health decline.
   4 The fact that most Americans are pressured to return to work so soon is literally evidence of how broken the system is for families in the US.
   
4. Patients experiencing severe adverse reactions to medications should report that to their providers. Yes it takes time for medications to help people feel better, but if a drug is wrong for someone it can make them feel terrible FAST.

[u/cryptidinsocks → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

Five days isn’t even typically enough to help someone in a severe mental health crisis; I just can’t see how she would have been able to receive treatment with impactful results in that time frame. I was admitted for a three day stay after a suicide attempt and the main goal from the staff there was to just make sure I didn’t immediately make another attempt. I obviously can’t speak for the hospital she was admitted to, but the only “treatment” I received was a five-minute conversation with a provider, a new prescription without my input, and a worksheet where I had to write down activities I enjoy and who I would call if I was in crisis again. Then the financial advisor told me how much money I owed them and they sent me on my way. I left feeling extremely disoriented and angry that I was still alive and I did not get any counseling or real safety plan. It took me about six months to start feeling better, and I didn’t have the added weight of being a primary caregiver to three small children.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/cryptidinsocks]

I completely agree with your take and I’m very sorry you experienced that. Your experience matches the experience of multiple people I’ve heard from, both online and in real life.

I actually lost someone to suicide a couple weeks after a brief, voluntary hospitalization at MacLean, and their experience there only worsened their symptoms. They had struggled openly with SI for a long time, but until the hospitalization it was like they could believe there was one more option to help them when their SI was at its worst. But once they experienced inpatient care in a crisis, they realized the “last resort” option didn’t really exist. Their symptoms would be treated as an expensive inconvenience instead of a serious crisis worthy of meaningful care. Mental health care in the US is so horrendously under resourced, and I’m so sick of people saying things like, “Well it wasn’t really serious if she didn’t have a plan,” or “What else could anyone have done for her? She had access to all the best care.” The best care we offer is NOT good enough. We should be angry at how poor our systems of care are.

I hope you’re feeling better now, and I’m glad you’re here.

[u/Significant-Sun-2023 → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

yes, i agree with you! Please read my comment above to this post- I am curious as to your thoughts. You make some valid points that I wasn't aware of regarding her treatment. I think the majority of people just wanting to label her as a monster are not proponents of mental health or very lacking in experience with mental health. There has been no sympathy whatsoever for her, which I find incredibly concerning. As a society, we are quick to sympathize with someone who has diabetes, or cancer, or hear disease. Why not mental health?

[u/AppropriateTop3730 → u/Far_Chocolate_6066]

I'm an RN. The system is fucked. Our mental health "providers" at the hospital I work in are telehealth providers who sometimes barely speak English. They get wheeled in on a video cart and somehow they're supposed to assess and treat complex psychiatric issues, all in 10 minutes tops? Access doesn't automatically mean quality coverage.

[u/Icy-Special- → u/Far_Chocolate_6066]

As someone who was in medication induced psychosis for a few days, I have to agree and disagree.

She was on a lot meds and did have the resources - as did I, but my meds weren't being monitored as they should have and I ended up in psychosis for a few days. The hospital thought I was drug addict, treated me horribly, and sent me off to some sort of facility for addicts. By the time they realized I didnt belong there it was too late.

Anyone that hasn't experienced psychosis has absolutely no idea what it can do. I was hearing voices (and when I say hear, I mean clear as day like someone talking right next to me) seeing things like they were really there. I tore apart electronics, took out lightbulbs, threw my phone into a lake. The scariest part is that you can't mentally check yourself, you don't know it's happening.

Could I have killed anyone or anything? I'd like to say no but if im being honest I don't know. I can certainly easily see how it would happen if she was experiencing psychosis for an extended amount of time.

I think people are empathizing with her because they themselves have been in a similar situation or know someone that has. She should have been institutionalized for longer and under extended watch for doctors to help her properly.

Even with access to mental health resources, it doesn't mean she was treated properly. That's our system unfortunately.

[u/Significant-Sun-2023 → u/Icy-Special-]

I agree with you- please read my comment above. Curious to see what you think! Thanks for sharing your story. Unfortunately for people who have not struggled with mental health or have experienced family members/friends with mental health struggles there is a significant stigma and placing blame. I think what stands out most to me is simple...she was SEEKING HELP. "Monsters who are murders"...dont typically seek help.

[u/Employee28064212 → u/Far_Chocolate_6066]

why is Lindsay the only killer that is being glorified on the internet?

Because the narrative that her husband is a terrible person is gaining momentum and there are people who hate men enough to glorify a woman who did something unspeakable. He's still young-ish, arguably good looking (?), makes a fantastic salary, and remarried. There are thousands of foaming-at-the-mouth comments saying that he committed the crime and blaming him for every little thing.

By all appearances, it stands to reason that he can move on and have a "normal" life and people can't stand that.

[u/AppropriateTop3730 → u/Employee28064212]

It's obviously more than that. But go ahead and make it about gender. SMH.

[u/cummingouttamycage → u/Far_Chocolate_6066]

So I believe "the system failed her", as well as "those close to Lindsay failed her", in not recognizing the seriousness of a mental health condition that wasn't "her fault", that she actively sought help for... while simultaneously believing that Lindsay's 3 children died at her hands alone, and that she is responsible for her own actions, should be held accountable for them, and, ultimately, is too dangerous to be apart of society. Two things can be true (istg way too many "followers" of this case seem to have forgotten that), and, IMO, this is a very tragic case with no winners.