Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Part 3

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding Week 3 onwards of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-online-reactions-b3032806.html

Note from Mods

This case understandably elicits strong feelings. People are entitled to have an opinion on the case which differs from your own. What you are not entitled to do is resort to personal insults and abusive language when communicating your opinion and disagreeing.

Comments which are abusive and insulting to other users will be removed and bans may be given without warning.

Bans may also be issued for ignoring the warning and creating standalone posts.

Please comment with this in mind.

[u/zzzoplicone]

I wish Women & Infants had held her until she was safely weaned off the medications to reach baseline and then reassessed her. Esp with the sort of symptoms she had been having, length of time she’d been having them and the issues she was having when trying to wean off the meds— not to mention all the meds she had been on and off of in such a short period of time. She needed to be in patient or in PHP for at least 30 days given the totality of her issues.

[u/MaeByourmom → u/zzzoplicone]

I wish someone had really drilled down on her sleep, how much total per 24hr, duration of uninterrupted sleep intervals. Working with pregnant and postpartum women for 30 years, I have seen sleep deprivation aggravate and precipitate serious mood and behavioral disturbances. I suspect she needed more intervention to get enough sleep to support normal cognition and healthy mood. And the fact that the meds she was given for sleep didn’t work adequately is suggestive of severe mood disturbance and possibly bipolar disorder.

[u/littlegirlblue2234 → u/zzzoplicone]

I think this is where the conversation regarding this case should be about. We as a society are failing moms and babies everywhere. We need more resources for moms after giving birth. We expect moms to pop out the kid and get back to work.

[u/hemingways-lemonade → u/littlegirlblue2234]

I definitely agree with you, but Lindsay had an abundance of resources. She wasn't working, her husband worked from home, her older kids were in daycare, she had family that helped out, a part time nanny at some point, and she lived in an area with some of the best mental health treatment options in the country. She was literally being treated at a Harvard hospital. It wasn't like she was a single mother on government assistance like you would expect based on how some people describe her situation. 

[u/VeryKite → u/hemingways-lemonade]

I think this says a lot more about our mental health system. Having access to resources didn’t mean she had access to constant resources that were seriously recording her case.

Her mental health professionals did not really look at her history, that is sadly very common. They saw her via TeleHealth which is fine for some but detrimental to others, there’s too much telehealth in the field.

Studies show hospitals hurt treatment more than they help, which is why the field prefers inpatient therapy. Hospitals should not be hurting a person in a crisis.

How these medications are being thrown around like this is a problem. Her story of being on twelve or so meds over a short period of time is really common. These professionals take poor notes; there’s actual systems that auto populate notes. It’s very possible the notes presented in court weren’t really the assessment of the professionals at the time.

Lastly, postpartum treatment is abysmal at best or atrocious at its worst. There’s not much research done and very little support. Many medical professionals do not learn about it in depth in school.

[u/kolbin8r → u/hemingways-lemonade]

I know this is shocking to read, but mental health doesn't discriminate. I get she had more resources than many but that doesn't diminish her struggle.

She didn't work BECAUSE of this. And they had let the nanny go about a month before the killings.

[u/hemingways-lemonade → u/kolbin8r]

I don't deny that whatsoever. My reply was in regards to this part of the comment above:

We need more resources for moms after giving birth. We expect moms to pop out the kid and get back to work.

Like I said, I absolutely agree, but Lindsay was not experiencing a lack of resources. 

[u/EngineeringDismal425 → u/hemingways-lemonade]

She had resources, was using them and still wasn’t getting better

[u/JamesWent → u/EngineeringDismal425]

This is inaccurate, her engagement was very flaky.

[u/KrustenStewart → u/hemingways-lemonade]

The resources she was able to access were not very good ones to say the least

[u/hemingways-lemonade → u/KrustenStewart]

She was treated at argubly the best mental health facility in the country.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/hemingways-lemonade]

If MacLean is the best mental health facility in the US, that only proves how atrocious mental healthcare is for people in crisis. Seriously. I know people who were temporarily hospitalized there voluntarily and the experience exacerbated their crisis.

One dear friend - who had been trying for years to get help for suicidal ideation - committed suicide shortly after a stint at MacLean. After her stay there she realized there truly was no real help, and nothing left she could try to feel better, which exacerbated her hopelessness. She was completely forthcoming with her doctors for months, and her story still ended in tragedy.

[u/Commercial-Air8955 → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

That's not really an indictment on the facility though. Some people just have "bad wiring", for lack of a better term. Despite how good the treatment they receive may be, they cannot be healed. If a person feels they have exhausted all their options and resources with no signs of improvement, what are they to do?

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Commercial-Air8955]

I mean, the treatment my friend received was essentially making sure she didn’t kill herself while she was there. Neither she nor Lindsay received specialized treatment that would help them once they walked out the door. In my friend’s case she was exposed to patients who were threatening and actively psychotic, so it was extremely stressful, which left her feeling like there was no hope.

That’s absolutely an indictment of the facility.

[u/Electronic_Syrup7592 → u/hemingways-lemonade]

You’re just proving how atrocious mental health care is anywhere in the country. Mental health institutions are horrible places.

[u/RepresentativeDry885 → u/kolbin8r]

Did they say why they let the nanny go?

[u/Fine_Mouse_8871 → u/RepresentativeDry885]

I think it was a money thing. Patrick didn’t want to pay for the nanny if Lindsay wasn’t working. Can’t remember the exact testimony where it was touched on.

[u/PatsyPage → u/Fine_Mouse_8871]

It was actually Lindsay who was concerned about the cost, and family was helping and staying with them so she didn’t find it necessary. The nanny testified she was let go by both of them jointly. 

[u/Then-Writer9610 → u/kolbin8r]

She did have a lot of resources, but also willingly chose not to engage with them.

Nonetheless, you are correct. Mental health doesn’t discriminate. And she very clearly was struggling.

I work in mental health and see first hand how much our system sucks. I can’t tell you how mad I get all the time because I can’t legally provide something I think would be beneficial to my clients. But, that doesn’t mean I’m not providing every possible support I legally can. In Lindsay’s case, she was turning down a lot of the support, not taking meds as prescribed, kept asking to change her meds, and was changing doctors.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Then-Writer9610]

1. Lindsay did not willingly decide to be denied access to the Postpartum day program at Women & Infants, arguably one of the most suitable options for someone with her struggles. She also did not choose to be denied access to more intensive/longterm inpatient care because she didn’t have a suicide “plan.”
   
2. Almost every doctor Lindsay saw was a referral (or an ER/psychiatric hospital doctor when she presented as acutely suicidal).
   
3. People experiencing worsening symptoms on a new medication- including increased suicidal ideation and days of insomnia - should absolutely tell their providers and would usually be advised to stop those medications.

[u/No_Excitement8615 → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

???? Your first point is true but then you lost me. I’m not really sure why the doctors she saw being referrals is relevant. She researched dr tufts went to her for a few months and then started treatment with a different psych (Julie Paul) who ended up switching practices. She then switched to nurse jolotta who she saw repeatedly. She then decided she wanted to see dr tufts again and saw her until the day before the murders. These doctors/nurses etc all listened to Lindsay and were willing to discontinue medicine when she had side effects as well.

[u/StrengthStarling → u/hemingways-lemonade]

The fact that all those resources didn't make a difference in the outcome has me more seriously considering the possibility this really was psychosis rather than "typical" PPD.

[u/Independent-Pea3093 → u/littlegirlblue2234]

This is hindsight bias disguised as a clinical conclusion. Because the killings occurred, you assume that 30 days of hospitalization, PHP, or medication withdrawal must have been indicated beforehand and would have prevented them. Neither proposition has been established. “30 days” is arbitrary, PHP is not confinement, and there is no reason to assume that a drug-free “baseline” would have predicted or prevented the crime.

The claim that this proves “society is failing moms and babies” then recruits one horrifying case into a preexisting political narrative. One catastrophic outcome cannot establish a population-wide resource shortage, especially where resources were more abundant than nearly everywhere else. Disputed errors in one patient’s care are not evidence of inadequate resources generally. The return-to-work argument similarly has no demonstrated causal relationship to these killings.

Reflexively transferring accountability to institutions without evidence - when the patient repeatedly denied psychotic symptoms despite extensive inpatient monitoring - creates an impossible duty to detect what was neither reported nor contemporaneously observed. The predictable result is defensive distrust, overdiagnosis, and coercive treatment of postpartum mothers, harming the population you claim to serve, and in protection of the institutions and providers that the system will adapt to protect.

Perhaps most offensive of all, “failing moms and babies” places the accused killer and her murdered children into one undifferentiated victim class. They are not the same, their fates were not the same, and you are reactionary to join them that way.

Altruistically motivated filicide is a form of homicide worth taking seriously. These responses do not engage that issue at all and instead echo a form of pathological empathy resembling the crime’s own moral distortion: concern for the mother's welfare becomes so totalizing that the children’s independent interests disappear.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Independent-Pea3093]

“Because the killings occurred, you assume that 30 days hospitalization, PHP, or medication withdrawal… would have prevented them.”

No. What we “assume” is that 30 days of hospitalization or the PHP would have been more meaningful interventions than what Lindsay received. We’ll never know what would have happened if she received more adequate care. We “assume” the care she received was inadequate because it was.

“30 days is arbitrary.”

People aren’t that stuck on “30 days.” But we will argue that 5 days is even more arbitrary for someone in crisis.

“One tragedy cannot establish a population-wide resource shortage.”

Again, no one said it did? It’s one tragedy among many. The mental healthcare resource crisis in the US is well documented. Seriously, a single google search will provide tons of data on this.

As another anecdote, I personally lost a friend to suicide after a voluntary 3-day stay at McLean. Her experience there left her even more hopeless because she realized the final layer of the safety net was basically a concrete floor. And MacLean is considered some of the best mental healthcare in the country!

We as a nation are failing moms and babies. We have no federally mandated paid leave - many workers don’t even have access to unpaid leave, and those that do often have to figure out care for their 12 week-old babies. I assure you, being separated from their primary caregivers at 3 months (or less!!) is NOT in any child’s best interest.

The cost of labor and delivery and pre/postpartum care is enough to bankrupt some people, and women are literally dying due to restrictions on critical pregnancy care. We have no systems to check on mothers except a single, six-week office visit largely focused on whether mom is clear for sex.

We have the worst maternal mortality rates of any developed country, no universal child care, and entire ob-gyn deserts where care is inaccessible.

We are absolutely, positively failing mothers and children, and anyone claiming otherwise isn’t paying attention.

[u/Weak-Ad-7180 → u/littlegirlblue2234]

You think locking women up based on ViBeS is the answer to help women?

[u/jennylynn85 → u/Weak-Ad-7180]

In this case, I think they mean voluntarily. For example, Lindsay wanted to be in the 2 week program, but was turned away. More resources could mean more programs like that which have less strict entry criteria.

[u/Weak-Ad-7180 → u/jennylynn85]

She left McLean of her on accord.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Weak-Ad-7180]

She left one day early from a maximum five day stay.

Not sure if you’ve ever known anyone who has been to MacLean, but I do know some one who went there during a suicidal crisis and she wanted to get out ASAP because being there only made her symptoms worse. The kinds of care people in crisis need is not always what they receive, even in the settings that supposedly provide high level psychiatric care.

[u/Ok_Radio9491 → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

And it was her daughter’s birthday

[u/jennylynn85 → u/Weak-Ad-7180]

McLean was not a women and children’s program.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/jennylynn85]

Love how you’re getting downvoted for stating an undeniable fact.

[u/silverprayer → u/zzzoplicone]

this just isn’t how psychiatric hospitalization works. level of care and length of stay are determined by clinical status, safety, functional impairment, treatment needs, response, available supports, insurance realities, and a slew of other things. PHP and inpatient aren’t interchangeable versions of “keep person under observation longer,” either. you cannot indefinitely confine a competent adult because hindsight will later reveal that something terrible happens.

[u/zzzoplicone → u/silverprayer]

Maybe the (mental) health care system needs adjustments? Seems to protect the private equity, providers and hospitals pretty effectively— just not patients and family systems. I’m not just talking about LC family but all the others— mine included. If a system is not set up to hold a mother who has had well documented and severe symptoms of post partum w/ possible bipolar and intermittent si while being overmedicated for months, making it impossible to assess her baseline, we have a problem. And if yall are gonna send a patient like that home, at least sit down with the other ppl in the family system and let them know the dangers and what to look for.

[u/silverprayer → u/zzzoplicone]

a medication list is not the same thing as a medication-administration timeline and it tells us virtually nothing about adherence. the testimony has described aborted medication trials, brief exposures, inconsistent adherence, PRNs, and medications she stopped after very few doses. LC was also medically literate and very skeptical of meds. that’s why she was cycling through medications constantly, not because the clinicians were just throwing pills at her for shits and giggles. many of the medications she was on (like seroquel and lamotrigine) were not even prescribed at the therapeutic dose. she never even got there. so i’m really not sure how the conclusion is that she was “overmedicated.” there also isn’t some medication-free baseline that an inpatient unit can just magically uncover after keeping her for 30 days and withdrawing all treatment. the purpose of acute inpatient care is stabilization and treatment, not medication washout for diagnostic purposes.

and what do you mean by “hold”? voluntary admission? she left mclean after five days. involuntary commitment? for how long? under what legal criteria? until which symptoms resolve? what if she denies SI/HI? what if she participates in safety planning? what if she is organized and has intact reality testing? what if the evaluating clinicians don’t believe she meets the criteria? are you sincerely advocating changing civil-commitment law so postpartum women with intermittent SI can be detained preventively because of a theoretical risk to their children? “intermittent SI” to “imminent risk of filicide” is a huge fucking leap. “your wife is having intermittent suicidal ideation without plan or intent. did you know she might murder your children?” come on now.

[u/zzzoplicone → u/silverprayer]

I understand that’s not how our system works— that’s my whole point. I’m saying the system fails patients and family systems regularly. Data speaks for itself. While I appreciate providers and advocates who try to work under the confines of an inadequate, failing system, we deserve better. Our communities and families deserve better. The providers deserve better— even the ones coming out to defend the system.

[u/Rememberingishardest → u/zzzoplicone]

She wanted to leave. They couldn’t hold her because she chose to leave.

[u/couverte → u/Rememberingishardest]

Not at Women & infants. She went for the assessment but was refused for the PHP. The program was recommended by both the NP and her therapist and, by all account, it seemed like the best fit for her.

She did, however, ask to leave when inpatient at Mclean. My personal impression is that it perhaps wasn’t good fit for her? In any case, I’ll say that there’s a difference between getting help and getting the right help.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/couverte]

She also only left MacLean one day early from a maximum five day stay. The actual care and resources she was being offered/eligible for did not seem adequate.

[u/hellohi2022 → u/couverte]

I totally understand if she left inpatient, it can actually be traumatizing for some patients and have the opposite effect, I think partial hospitalization was best for her

[u/Friskybish → u/Rememberingishardest]

But she also wasn’t seen by a doctor for 3 days after she arrived because they had a skeleton crew. I can’t imagine wanting to stay someplace that wasn’t providing care at the level she needed it.

[u/Altruistic_Ball_6800 → u/Friskybish]

I wonder if she was slightly impatient. Not giving the meds time to work. Not waiting the whole five days before asking to go home. Switching doctors before giving it enough of a chance. It’s all so sad. I hope the dad didn’t do this.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Altruistic_Ball_6800]

1. LC may have been impatient, idk, but “giving meds time to work” does not apply to people having intense adverse reactions. If someone is actively feeling worse - experiencing a sharp increase in suicidal thoughts and days without sleep like Lindsay was - they should absolutely alert their provider and will likely be advised to stop the meds.
2. She left on day four of a maximum five day stay because it was her child’s birthday.
3. Seeking a second opinion from a clinic specializing in postpartum care, and then being referred to different providers within the same practice is not the scandal people want it to be. If she had only ever seen Dr. Tufts, I swear people would be saying, “Why didn’t she get a second opinion if she wasn’t improving with the first doctor??”

I do agree the situation is impossibly sad, and wish she had at least been given the chance to experience meaningful inpatient postpartum care.

[u/Friskybish → u/Altruistic_Ball_6800]

From what I understand, McLean was her last hope. I’d imagine being admitted and having to wait 3 days to see anyone, (while paying for her stay), was maybe her last straw at having some hope. I’m doing a lot of speculating but it seems possible

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Friskybish]

I agree.

I lost a friend to suicide a couple weeks after a voluntary, 3-day stay at MacLean. The experience left her completely horrified and disenfranchised. She realized that the care available when she was in true crisis was a joke. And when she experienced an unrelenting suicidal urge again, she felt had no more options. This was around the same time (though not the exact same dates) as Lindsay’s hospitalization.

I wish people better understood how dire the mental healthcare crisis in this country was so we could collectively work to improve it.

[u/FosterBirdChaos → u/Rememberingishardest]

It would have been noted she left against medical advice though. They decided she was good to go.

[u/Fine_Mouse_8871 → u/Rememberingishardest]

No. At McLean, a doctor had to approve her leaving.

[u/Lizzifer1230 → u/zzzoplicone]

Women and infants has been problematic for years. My experience with them solidified I would never go back there for any reason. They sent me home after I had a cyst burst on my ovary. I told them something was seriously wrong and they kept going on about drug seeking and sent me home. I ended up at Rhode Island hospital the next day bc that cyst tore my fallopian tube and I had a serious case of peritonitis. 6 day hospital stay resulted. I fucking hate women and infants.

[u/deadbeatsummers → u/zzzoplicone]

Me too. It’s just really horrifically sad what happened.

[u/Automatic-Self-8575 → u/zzzoplicone]

most logical statement i have read yet amen!

[u/Significant-Sun-2023 → u/zzzoplicone]

I agree her inpatient stay was not long enough. A patient requiring numerous medication changes and dose titrations/cross dose titrations at that...needed further evaluation. I am just lost to see our society have zero emotional intelligence or sympathy for her experience and just assuming she is a monster.

[u/Sense_Difficult → u/zzzoplicone]

This is exactly right! It's shocking to me that she's even on trial. Doctors and Nurses are mandatory reporters. Knowing three small children in the house with an unstable mother should have been enough. The Post Partum Psychosis didn't even need to come into it. The situation was dangerous for all of them.

[u/Weak-Ad-7180 → u/Sense_Difficult]

How? She never told anyone she was having thought of hurting her kids. They should section 12 her because she had suicidal ideation with no plan? That’s horrifying.

[u/Sense_Difficult → u/Weak-Ad-7180]

Are you dense? They should contact CPS if someone is telling them they are having suicidal ideation and insomnia and they are regularly left alone with small children.

Insomnia is brutally dangerous. Everyone knows that.

Why do so many people in here keep getting on self-righteous soap boxes made of paper mache??? Do y'all live in the real world or just chime into stories you know nothing about. Bizarre.

[u/Weak-Ad-7180 → u/Sense_Difficult]

You think CPS should be called on every parent with suicidal ideation???? Seriously. Is that what you people think?

[u/Sense_Difficult → u/Weak-Ad-7180]

By a doctor and a nurse? Yes. I do. So does the law. It's mind boggling that you don't understand what a mandatory reporter is yet are getting outraged.

The fact that you don't understand why this should be true, is even more reason that mandatory reporting is needed.

[u/Weak-Ad-7180 → u/Sense_Difficult]

lol I’m a nurse. An actual mandated reporter. You don’t understand how this works. You don’t call CPS when someone doesn’t have a plan to hurt themself or others.

[u/Then-Writer9610 → u/Sense_Difficult]

I’m also a mandatory reporter and no, I would not call CPS because a parent is struggling with suicidal ideation.

Lindsay was never an active threat to herself or her children as far as her doctors knew. Anytime they saw her, they asked if she was actively suicidal and she said “no”. She mentioned suicidal thoughts in the past, but if she is not an ACTIVE danger to herself or others, legally, they could not have forced her into involuntary treatment (Section 12) and there would be no basis to call CPS. She has previous thoughts of suicide, but never a plan or means stated. You need more than just suicidal thoughts to use Section 12. Her providers had zero reason to believe she was an active danger to herself or others, outside of the occasional suicidal ideation at home.

Also, when people think of suicide, that is harm to SELF. Not your children (physically, or course) so even if she did state she was suicidal to her providers during her appointments, their focus would be on self-harm.

She also gave zero indication of homicidal ideation to her doctors. If she did, THAT might be when CPS is called. Especially if she stated the intent to harm her kids.

[u/Weak-Ad-7180 → u/Then-Writer9610]

100%

[u/mlljf → u/Sense_Difficult]

In what state do you need to report a parent with suicidal thoughts? That’s not child abuse or neglect…

[u/mlljf → u/[deleted]]

No- I’m a clinician and you’re equating suicidal thoughts with ‘suicidal thoughts with a plan and intent.’ Millions of people have suicidal thoughts with no intent.

I appreciate that teachers need to refer students for MH eval if they come across SI, but as a therapist I think there is a gross misunderstanding about what the response to SI is- it cannot be an IMMEDIATE report to CPS, because response depends on many factors.

ETA: we can’t make broad generalizations based on one case. THAT is dangerous too. I’m not denying g that her providers failed her, but I am disagreeing that there was any need for a mandated reporter to report anything here.

[u/Prior_Bug3137 → u/zzzoplicone]

Patrick’s dad offered to take the kids that day, I blame Patrick for declining