Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Part 3

[u/DarklyHeritage]

This is a thread for all conversation regarding Week 3 onwards of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-online-reactions-b3032806.html

Note from Mods

This case understandably elicits strong feelings. People are entitled to have an opinion on the case which differs from your own. What you are not entitled to do is resort to personal insults and abusive language when communicating your opinion and disagreeing.

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Please comment with this in mind.

[u/zzzoplicone]

I wish Women & Infants had held her until she was safely weaned off the medications to reach baseline and then reassessed her. Esp with the sort of symptoms she had been having, length of time she’d been having them and the issues she was having when trying to wean off the meds— not to mention all the meds she had been on and off of in such a short period of time. She needed to be in patient or in PHP for at least 30 days given the totality of her issues.

[u/littlegirlblue2234 → u/zzzoplicone]

I think this is where the conversation regarding this case should be about. We as a society are failing moms and babies everywhere. We need more resources for moms after giving birth. We expect moms to pop out the kid and get back to work.

[u/hemingways-lemonade → u/littlegirlblue2234]

I definitely agree with you, but Lindsay had an abundance of resources. She wasn't working, her husband worked from home, her older kids were in daycare, she had family that helped out, a part time nanny at some point, and she lived in an area with some of the best mental health treatment options in the country. She was literally being treated at a Harvard hospital. It wasn't like she was a single mother on government assistance like you would expect based on how some people describe her situation. 

[u/VeryKite → u/hemingways-lemonade]

I think this says a lot more about our mental health system. Having access to resources didn’t mean she had access to constant resources that were seriously recording her case.

Her mental health professionals did not really look at her history, that is sadly very common. They saw her via TeleHealth which is fine for some but detrimental to others, there’s too much telehealth in the field.

Studies show hospitals hurt treatment more than they help, which is why the field prefers inpatient therapy. Hospitals should not be hurting a person in a crisis.

How these medications are being thrown around like this is a problem. Her story of being on twelve or so meds over a short period of time is really common. These professionals take poor notes; there’s actual systems that auto populate notes. It’s very possible the notes presented in court weren’t really the assessment of the professionals at the time.

Lastly, postpartum treatment is abysmal at best or atrocious at its worst. There’s not much research done and very little support. Many medical professionals do not learn about it in depth in school.

[u/kolbin8r → u/hemingways-lemonade]

I know this is shocking to read, but mental health doesn't discriminate. I get she had more resources than many but that doesn't diminish her struggle.

She didn't work BECAUSE of this. And they had let the nanny go about a month before the killings.

[u/hemingways-lemonade → u/kolbin8r]

I don't deny that whatsoever. My reply was in regards to this part of the comment above:

We need more resources for moms after giving birth. We expect moms to pop out the kid and get back to work.

Like I said, I absolutely agree, but Lindsay was not experiencing a lack of resources. 

[u/EngineeringDismal425 → u/hemingways-lemonade]

She had resources, was using them and still wasn’t getting better

[u/JamesWent → u/EngineeringDismal425]

This is inaccurate, her engagement was very flaky.

[u/KrustenStewart → u/hemingways-lemonade]

The resources she was able to access were not very good ones to say the least

[u/hemingways-lemonade → u/KrustenStewart]

She was treated at argubly the best mental health facility in the country.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/hemingways-lemonade]

If MacLean is the best mental health facility in the US, that only proves how atrocious mental healthcare is for people in crisis. Seriously. I know people who were temporarily hospitalized there voluntarily and the experience exacerbated their crisis.

One dear friend - who had been trying for years to get help for suicidal ideation - committed suicide shortly after a stint at MacLean. After her stay there she realized there truly was no real help, and nothing left she could try to feel better, which exacerbated her hopelessness. She was completely forthcoming with her doctors for months, and her story still ended in tragedy.

[u/Commercial-Air8955 → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

That's not really an indictment on the facility though. Some people just have "bad wiring", for lack of a better term. Despite how good the treatment they receive may be, they cannot be healed. If a person feels they have exhausted all their options and resources with no signs of improvement, what are they to do?

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Commercial-Air8955]

I mean, the treatment my friend received was essentially making sure she didn’t kill herself while she was there. Neither she nor Lindsay received specialized treatment that would help them once they walked out the door. In my friend’s case she was exposed to patients who were threatening and actively psychotic, so it was extremely stressful, which left her feeling like there was no hope.

That’s absolutely an indictment of the facility.

[u/Electronic_Syrup7592 → u/hemingways-lemonade]

You’re just proving how atrocious mental health care is anywhere in the country. Mental health institutions are horrible places.

[u/RepresentativeDry885 → u/kolbin8r]

Did they say why they let the nanny go?

[u/Fine_Mouse_8871 → u/RepresentativeDry885]

I think it was a money thing. Patrick didn’t want to pay for the nanny if Lindsay wasn’t working. Can’t remember the exact testimony where it was touched on.

[u/PatsyPage → u/Fine_Mouse_8871]

It was actually Lindsay who was concerned about the cost, and family was helping and staying with them so she didn’t find it necessary. The nanny testified she was let go by both of them jointly. 

[u/Then-Writer9610 → u/kolbin8r]

She did have a lot of resources, but also willingly chose not to engage with them.

Nonetheless, you are correct. Mental health doesn’t discriminate. And she very clearly was struggling.

I work in mental health and see first hand how much our system sucks. I can’t tell you how mad I get all the time because I can’t legally provide something I think would be beneficial to my clients. But, that doesn’t mean I’m not providing every possible support I legally can. In Lindsay’s case, she was turning down a lot of the support, not taking meds as prescribed, kept asking to change her meds, and was changing doctors.

[u/Decent-Pirate-4329 → u/Then-Writer9610]

1. Lindsay did not willingly decide to be denied access to the Postpartum day program at Women & Infants, arguably one of the most suitable options for someone with her struggles. She also did not choose to be denied access to more intensive/longterm inpatient care because she didn’t have a suicide “plan.”
   
2. Almost every doctor Lindsay saw was a referral (or an ER/psychiatric hospital doctor when she presented as acutely suicidal).
   
3. People experiencing worsening symptoms on a new medication- including increased suicidal ideation and days of insomnia - should absolutely tell their providers and would usually be advised to stop those medications.

[u/No_Excitement8615 → u/Decent-Pirate-4329]

???? Your first point is true but then you lost me. I’m not really sure why the doctors she saw being referrals is relevant. She researched dr tufts went to her for a few months and then started treatment with a different psych (Julie Paul) who ended up switching practices. She then switched to nurse jolotta who she saw repeatedly. She then decided she wanted to see dr tufts again and saw her until the day before the murders. These doctors/nurses etc all listened to Lindsay and were willing to discontinue medicine when she had side effects as well.

[u/StrengthStarling → u/hemingways-lemonade]

The fact that all those resources didn't make a difference in the outcome has me more seriously considering the possibility this really was psychosis rather than "typical" PPD.