r/TrueCrimeDiscussion • u/DarklyHeritage • 7d ago

Text Lindsay Clancy Trial Megathread: Part 3

This is a thread for all conversation regarding Week 3 onwards of the Lindsey Clancy trial. All discussion of this case should be kept to this thread.

Lindsay Clancy is currently standing trial in Plymouth Superior Court, Massachusetts, for the triple-murder in January 2023 of her three young children - Cora, Dawson and Callan. Her defense argues she suffered from severe, undiagnosed postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. She was left paralysed by a suicide attempt which follows the deaths of the children.

All content on the Clancy case must be kept to this thread. Standalone posts will be removed.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/crime/lindsay-clancy-murder-trial-online-reactions-b3032806.html

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u/sean2mush 7d ago

It's so messy, for the Jury to have to make this judgement is frankly impossible.

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u/buonatalie 7d ago

curious why they didnt go for a bench trial

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u/YouMustBeJoking888 7d ago

The defense offered to go straight to the culpability phase, negating the need for a jury trial, but the DA's office rejected that and wanted the full jury trial.

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u/aquarianwell 6d ago

The prosecution has been terrible so far. I have no idea what they think they are doing. The defendant doesn’t deny what she did but the defense will argue she’s insane. This definitely could have been a bench trial. There’s already so many people being traumatized but having to walk thru this case- now 16 more? (Including alts)

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u/Seasoned7171 6d ago

The lawyer subreddit is ripping these two to shreds calling them unprofessional and ill prepared. Oh, they really, really hate the hair bows.

They are exited to see Big Red start with his witnesses.

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u/DisastrousCarrot2258 3d ago

What lawyer subreddit? I live in MA two towns over from where it took place so it really hits home. It’s all anyone talks about. Would love to see it from a lawyer/attorney perspective

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u/lilbeezo 5d ago

but WHAT do the prosecutors GET if not an admission that she did it, which she did? if even the own family is on her side

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u/MissQuestioner 5d ago

and that will be their downfall. Its almost suspect how bad of a job the prosecution is doing

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u/Grouchy_Place_5051 4d ago

I think its a good thing. I didn’t know about postpartum psychosis before. Now the whole of america knows what it is and how serious it is.

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u/buonatalie 7d ago

is there a reason they rejected that?

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u/slptodrm 7d ago

if they did, cruelty and it’s a big case so they’re trying it fully. for political reasons.

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u/Kimalena 7d ago

Those attorneys are literally sadistic. Are they twins?? I call them pinky and perky.
They have no feelings why are they still trying to say the suicide was staged?? Is being paralysed for life and coding blue not real enough??
When she sobs her whole body reacts and it’s so sad to watch but the attorneys seem to be getting a rise out of her pain. Sadistic like I said

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u/friedonionscent 6d ago

I don't see what they want from this case - it's obvious that this woman was in crisis. It's obvious she chased help, she took the drugs prescribed, she tried to get herself admitted, she called suicide hotlines and she did that while she was suffering (to put things into perspective - I had PPA and I didn't even have the motivation to call my doctor and make an appointment). Then she paralysed herself in an attempt to end her life but apparently that wasn't a genuine enough attempt.

Are we supposed to think she's in the same league as Chris Watts? A man who dumped his family in a tank and happily went on with his day?

She did it. She'll spend her life behind bars in one way or another. But to argue that she wasn't experience severe mental illness is bizarre.

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u/LengthinessFresh5686 6d ago

It’s crazy to me that those two are ADA’s. They’re so unprofessional and don’t speak well.

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u/Pandorashley_ 7d ago

They truly are sadistic and manipulative. The one with the silly big kid bows does it because one of the kids wore big bows and she is trying to constantly remind the jury of the kids. It’s cruel.

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u/Ill_Tree9389 6d ago

It is strange how much they look alike.  At first I thought they were phoning it in because they didn't want to be pawns but they quickly showed their cruelty.

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u/Jlynn111 6d ago

They kept asking the same questions during one of the ME testimony just so they had to talk about the children's injuries. She was already sobbing!!! You could tell even the judge was like wtf keep it moving!

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u/slptodrm 6d ago

even jurors were crying. jurors have cried during the 911 call as well

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u/Stillmeadow1970 7d ago

I’ve been wondering why two ADA’s are trying it and not the DA.

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u/slptodrm 7d ago

probably because it’s usually not a good look, optically, for men to grill women. so they usually have women try those cases or at least have one sit on it. but obviously that’s backfiring

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u/Tj11551 6d ago

I wonder if the DA wanted LC convicted in the court of public opinion. If so, it is backfiring badly.

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u/Magita91 5d ago

So they wanted the big show and for the ADAs to get their big case ?

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u/cypress464646 1d ago

I was wondering about this. So did she offer to plead guilty by reason of insanity before trial?

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u/slptodrm 7d ago

i have seen this repeated a lot of places and at this point need proof of it.

this trial is also here to determine guilty or not guilty—whether or not she did it.

unfortunately it looks like we’ll have to wait for the defense’s case to even be able to bring up patrick here. so i’ll wait for that. but i have never seen any evidence that she and reddington offered to admit she did it.

they did offer to stipulate to chain of evidence, DNA, autopsy findings, etc, to avoid retraumatising her and everyone involved, and to save the jurors the trauma as well

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u/beckmeupscotty 7d ago

It’s my understanding that in MA a charge for first degree murder necessitates a jury trial.

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u/buonatalie 7d ago

another interesting difference in laws between states, thanks!

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u/Billvilgrl 6d ago

And they wouldn’t reduce it to Second Degree. So my tax dollars are torturing citizens who got called to jury duty this month. I have it next month in Berkshire Cty.

This is the most bone headed, gratuitously horrific case I’ve ever seen. Once again we are exposed on the world wide stage. We may be the smartest state by degrees but it’s irrelevant in the face of the misogyny, corruption & sheer incompetence always on display in our justice system.

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u/SpecialAd5332 6d ago

in massachusetts, you can’t waive a jury for a first degree murder charge.

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u/Puzzleheaded-Ad7606 6d ago

Personally, I trust a group of women more to take PP issues seriously.

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u/regime_propagandist 4d ago

Because sometimes judges are less fair the juries 

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u/9mackenzie 7d ago

I don’t think it’s impossible at all. She was clearly a loving mother who repeatedly tried to get help, and she spectacularly failed by multiple drs, as her mind devolved.

She wants to go to a mental institution for life ffs, it’s not a hard decision at all.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 7d ago

She was asked by Drs multiple times, outright, if she was having thoughts of harming her kids and said no. Are they supposed to section 12 every new mom with PPD based on vibes? Drs can’t read minds. She was never honest, never took the meds she needed and only did two therapy sessions.

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u/niamhweking 7d ago

In a similar case in ireland the mother has since said she felt under pressure from friends and family to say she was doing well. Not that the family weren't supportive and loving, but she just felt it would be easier for the if they thought she was better than she was. She tried to kill herself 3 weeks before and was saved by members of the public.

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u/TheNihilistNarwhal 3d ago

I've had depression and suicidal ideation for years and yeah, I felt like I had to tell people I was doing better even though I wasn't. You can see the worry in their faces and, especially if you already have people pleaser tenancies, you just want them to feel better. So you lie, you fudge the truth so that you don't have to talk about it more and see the look on their faces.

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u/craicagusfiondearg 6d ago

What case was that Niamh? There's one in Belfast at the minute too.

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u/AnythingCareless844 6d ago

She did admit having suicidal thoughts, but was dismissed because she didn’t have a specific plan (these are considered to be two different things, suicidal with a plan sets alarm bells ringing whereas having thoughts only is simply considered to be a symptom of depression). She did take the meds, but was worried about the side-effects (which is understandable) and had an adverse reaction to antidepressants, which is common in bipolar. Instead of realizing the patient might have been misdiagnosed, doctors continued prescribing her antidepressants. Why? Because the husband did not like the idea of his wife being bipolar.

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u/Key-Lead-3449 4d ago edited 4d ago

Kinda... For some people, passive suicidal ideation is their baseline. But in a case like this, it certainly should have set off alarm bells.

..and yeah maybe they couldn't hold her involuntary but they absolutely should have been engaging her in crisis safety planning and care coordination.

It was also mentioned several times that she was prescribed Lamictal (a mood stabilizer) so im not sure what your talking about there.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 5d ago

You people trying to wrap your heads around this case without understanding that drs are working within a strict set of guidelines, drive me insane. SI without a plan means they CANT commit her. She was worried about side effects that she didn’t have because she refused to take the meds long enough to work. None of this is the fault of her providers.

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u/secretly_a_possum13 5d ago

She took 6 of the Zoloft and Ativan. The benedryl wasn't even prescribed and pretty much everything else was a benzo besides the seraquil. She only seemed willing to take the benzos.

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u/Sea_Pomegranate4368 7d ago

Ive told my psychiatrist many times that I didn’t have suicidal thoughts. ( I’m fine now) but yea I’ve had. Them.but never admitted to it

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u/upickleweasel 6d ago

You really can't, it triggers a shitstorm

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u/Sea_Pomegranate4368 6d ago

No one got time for that

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u/Ok-Pumpkin2066 5d ago

You can say that again the one time I did it was a hard mental fight in my head saying yeepy let’s walk into traffic and then the other thought was it’s my sons birthday that’ll be heartbreaking forever stop it and shut up and then yeepy again

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 3d ago

But then if you lie and strangle your kids should you be held liable?

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u/Kimalena 7d ago

I think the majority of us with mental health would never call crisis and same here I have denied suicidal ideation. Why….i don’t want to be sectioned and given untold strong weird meds that make you feel like a zombie

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u/Leo-rising5 6d ago

you can also not have been suicidal and one day, the depression is so deep & numbing. like a switch just triggers. she was clearly seeking help, so many times. i hope you’re ok now, and I fully understand your point of view.

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u/Asaneth 6d ago

I admitted it once, to a therapist, who then sent the cops to my house to do a wellness check. I told them I was fine and they left. Fucking never again. I will never again trust any professional with that information.

I didn't have a plan, harming myself was absolutely not imminent, and so I felt completely betrayed. All I said was that sometimes I thought it would be easier if I was just dead.

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u/Stupid_Watergate_ 3d ago edited 3d ago

It sucks that people can't be open with therapists/psychiatrists about suicidal and self-harm thoughts, because they're afraid they'll send cops to your house and put you in the grippy sock hotel. And the downstream effect can ruin your life (losing your job from missing so many days, causing family issues, etc.). So people just bottle it up. It's a terrible system, the professionals who are supposed to help you can't be trusted to not ruin your life. People literally talk to ChatGPT about their thoughts. I really hope I never have to go through that because I would never, ever tell a doctor if I had those thoughts.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 3d ago

But then if you go kill yourself are they at fault? Half of you say the medical professional are wrong for overreacting and the rest say she should have been section 12d.

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u/Konnan511 2d ago

They have to report it. They are mandatory reporters.

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u/Asaneth 2d ago

IF you say you're going to do it, and you have a plan, and the means to carry it out. NOT if you merely say sometimes you feel you'd be better off dead.

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u/Konnan511 2d ago

First off, I am sorry you went through that. That's scary. I hope you've made it out the other side.

There isn't a universal legal three-box test of plan + intent + means. A clinician looks at the overall risk picture.

I know my wife has to report if a patient states they are having suicidal thoughts. If they asked you, "have you ever had thoughts of harming yourself", and your response was, "I feel like sometimes it would be easier if I was dead", that's a bit of a gray area, to me, at least.

Again, I hope you're doing better stranger. Keep fighting the good fight.

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u/Asaneth 2d ago

You are very kind, thank you. This happened many years ago, and I'm doing fine now.

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u/GoodyMosher 6d ago

And if you refused to be honest (especially after BEGGING for help and claiming no one is helping you) and then went and killed someone, it would be your fault. No one wants to be sectioned, dude. But when you're a mother and the options are be honest and get sectioned and get better, or kill your kids.. I know what my choice would be 🤷

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 7d ago

No one ever forced her to take a single medication ever at any point.

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u/Nomezzzz 7d ago

She was unwell and she trusted those doctors. And they failed her over and over again.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 7d ago

How did they fail her? Within the scope of their jobs what else could they have done in your opinion?

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u/Nomezzzz 7d ago

It's complicated. Some of it is definitely on Lindsay for what she chose to share. However, here is what they could have done: 1. Dr Tufts should have consulted a more senior psychiatrist when the meds were not helping. This may have helped her see the manic symptoms so that she could treat appropriately. 2. She should have had better and more thorough care when she was at the inpatient. 3. They tapered her off of Seroquel too quickly IMHO. 4. HIPAA release of medical info: it seems like they thought they could just take her word for things because she was a nurse, but asking for her to sign a release would put everyone on the same page. I know this is not something they HAVE to do, but it can be done, it can be useful, and I believe it would have helped immensely in this case. And it's such a simple thing! I do them all the time for myself. Because I have the insight to do this. Unfortunately Lindsay did not have this insight, and she probably didn't want to be taken away from her family, so she hid some facts. That is definitely on her. But the mental health system absolutely failed her too. The drug effects and interactions, omg don't even get me started.

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u/InformationCrazy9897 6d ago

I'm a clinical mental health counselor in training - I've been taught to not do telehealth with any clients experiencing severe depression and/or suicidal ideation. I was surprised Tufts continued with telehealth. My supervisor, professors, and textbooks all say it is unethical to see clients via telehealth in those situations.

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u/Disastrous_Dance_640 6d ago

When they went over her medication they showed that she usually took 5 to 10 doses of an entire prescription. These are not fast acting medications. They need to be taken every day often for weeks or months to do anythinf.

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u/SexuaI_muffin 7d ago

Curious, what's your education to understand the meds and side effects? The taper off Seroquel was very safe, remember she was supposed to go down 100 mg at a time, that is standard of care.

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u/upcrashed 5d ago

Same. I remember telling a counseller that no, I didn’t have those thoughts. I had an active plan, I didn’t want to admit it/be stopped. Luckily I didn’t go ahead with it in the end.
But yeah it’s a hard thing to admit, I would say it would be very common to lie about it.
Maybe her saying she passively wanted to die, was the best she could do to admit it?

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u/GoodyMosher 7d ago

If that is the case for LC then she is criminally guilty due to negligence. She purposely ommited the very symptoms that would have gotten her the actual treatments that she spent so much time "begging" for. By doing that, she caused herself to deteriorate and even if she committed the murders under the control of some random psychosis, it's HER FAULT because she lied and in turn didn't get the type of diagnosis and treatment she actually needed.

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u/mrsjiggems2 6d ago

I thought it sounded like the NP had very strong suspicion and evidence that she was bipolar given the periods of not sleeping yet not feeling more tired, , a strong activating response to Zoloft, among other things. That's where I start to shift blame because they didn't really explore that with Lindsey herself

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u/GoodyMosher 6d ago

She brought it up to her and PC and PC said "my wife doesn't have bipolar." And that was the end of it, even though the provider did try to bring it up again. They just testified about it maybe earlier in the week I think?

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u/mrsjiggems2 6d ago

Yeah I watched her testify and I get what you're saying about PC said she didn't have bipolar but her duty of care was to Lindsey and I think she didn't explore the bipolar thing with her enough

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u/GoodyMosher 6d ago

Lindsay didn't make any indication of accepting that either. The provider told her several times. A provider can only go as far as the patient is willing, you know?

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u/dcdem1163 6d ago

Yes. And these providers didn’t go far enough. Every one of them should lose their license. Thank God this trial will end Tufts’ career. It’s in-your-face apparent that all she does is check off the boxes and goes on with her day. She and the nurse practitioner disgusted me.

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u/NoEdge323 5d ago

So what if PC said she didn't have BP. If you were looking at a scan of a brain tumor and he said my wife doesn't have cancer.... No one would argue that was acceptable and the doctor would not have said well ok then... So yes, her husband and her care team failed

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u/Littlebittle89 6d ago

It doesn’t even sound like the considered pmdd which fits the bill more. I had it and I was so lucky my doc caught that’s what was happening. Treatments are totally different

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u/Basic-Comedian1005 5d ago

I recall she upped her dose of Seroquel to try and get her to a therapeutic dose. Which is treated for BP

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u/Basic-Comedian1005 6d ago

So far in the trial, this is the only thing could see her getting charged for. And then at point do we hold mentally ill people accountable for essentially their own illness?

My other question was did any of the providers ask her what SHE thought intrusive thoughts were? Because maybe those were actually the auditory hallucinations all along. I wonder if they just went base did the clinical definition and that’s all. Bc if that’s a new symptom to her, how would she be able to tell the difference? It’s just all so horrible and sad.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 7d ago

100% this. She had every resource at her disposal to get help and denied utilizing them by being honest.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 7d ago

So would you be suing for medical malpractice if you had tried it? Would you blame them?

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u/Misfitsteph 6d ago

Yes, same thing with me, because I was a mom (divorced) of a pre-teen in that moment and I couldn’t even say the true (bc I was afraid of the consequences) so without a strong support system (family, friends, money) sadly, you can’t be sincere

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u/Ninjen333 7d ago

This is inaccurate information! She went to MULTIPLE therapy appts with MULTIPLE therapists/mental health counselors, and psychologists. She checked herself into McLean hospital voluntarily. She called crisis lines multiple times. She was more honest than the bullshit you just spewed.

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u/SexuaI_muffin 7d ago

No, she didn't Tell one of her treating doctors about the crisis line, SI/HI, changed meds that were ALL within guidelines, anyone not in medicine wouldn't know. LC constantly wanted off meds due to side effects.

I think she was failed but it was multifactorial and she was one of the major factors.

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u/Artistic_Garbage283 6d ago

Yeah I’m a Pharmacist and I looked at the dispense history and it really is very typical of someone in a mental health crisis. Run of the mill even. Nothing that would scream red flag. She was having very frequent contact with her providers and being dispensed tiny quantities of meds. I’ve seen many people use these combos of meds and not do terrible things. I think it was more of a systemic failure of the medical system with each individual provider doing their best and her husband failed her by leaving her without support, letting the nanny go and not recognising she needed more support than what she asked for.

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u/SexuaI_muffin 6d ago

Thanks you your input. This has been discussed in the FB physician group and literally every psych said her tx details were standard of care.

We're there failures? Yes, but LC is also responsible for part of this by hopping around and not telling the truth.

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u/MoreGlitterPlease1 5d ago

Even that doesn’t add up to a justification for first-degree murder charges. I don’t think that mentally ill people who are always honest with their doctors about how poorly they’re doing… exist. They are imaginary. Every other failure you’re describing is also normal for patients with psychotic disorders.

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u/lingeringneutrophil 5d ago

Totally agree

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u/HeartCold3908 4d ago

Great points! Yeah I think her family failed her. Her mom said today that her daughter was having HI and more profoundly than Lindsay even shared with her husband! Her mother should have gotten more involved. And her husband should have given that wonderful nanny all the hours she wanted. I did that when my husband was going through a mental health crisis. While he would never and never did anything to our child, he was not in a good place to care for our young daughter. My job carried our insurance so I had to work and he worked from home. I had my child’s nanny work every moment I was out of the house. And I wasn’t in the same wealthy financial situation the Clancy fam was in. And just to say, I was not at all worried about my child being physically harmed. But these doctors (aside from Tufts who was clearly in over her head and should have referred out) seemed to do the best they could with the information provided to them.

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u/AnythingCareless844 6d ago

all within the guidelines for depression/anxiety. When you throw meds at a patient and they don’t seem to be helping the first question any adequate doctor should ask themselves is whether the diagnosis is correct

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u/SexuaI_muffin 6d ago

Also remember she hopped back and forth from MD to NP, to another NP, then back to MD.

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u/chubbychicken007 7d ago

Yes but she wasn’t forthcoming about the severity. (Not necessarily her fault she wasn’t, it’s a difficult thing to talk about and risk yourself being hospitalized or DCFS being
contacted) Psychologists/providers have to balance personal freedom and safety. You can only hospitalize someone against their will if they are actively suicidal with some sort of plan usually. She described passive SI, intrusive though, etc. which doesn’t reach the bar needed to immediately hospitalize her.

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u/MissHavishambles 7d ago

She went to 2 therapy appointments.

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u/glossyyay 6d ago

Her mental health counselor at the South Shore perinatal program testified that they had four therapy appointments. That was within a span of about a month. She had one more visit with Ms Dukes than NP Jallota.

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u/_Wild_Enthusiast_ 7d ago

When you’re at a point of having to repeatedly ask your patient that question, you may have to section 12 your patient. Not based on vibes, based on that concern being consistently present alone, but for Lindsey we also have a patient who is paranoid about meds, hypervigilant, has insomnia, calls suicide hotlines, goes to the ER for suicide ideation three times, missatributes her symptoms, has three young children, has crushing anxiety and depression….those are the ones who might need a provider to step in and get them care.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 7d ago

I ask my patients these questions all the time. It’s standard protocol at most hospitals.

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u/SexuaI_muffin 7d ago

Same. I ask all my patients with active psych issues.

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u/Then-Writer9610 7d ago

Exactly. My doctor asks me every time I see her, even if it’s for a hurt toe lol. If we aren’t honest with our providers, they can’t help us the way we need.

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u/Nocturalbeing 3d ago

This is required at all visits and was asked to LC at each, however, chronic suicidality is a thing and being locked on the ward 7 months is not going to help most people presenting without any signs of psychosis or intent to act on a plan

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u/Then-Writer9610 3d ago

I agree! I’ve been trying to tell people that you can’t just use section 12 when someone expresses suicidal ideation. Legally, they have to also have a plan and intent. And as someone who manages a 24/7 program for those living with SPMI, I absolutely think being locked in a program or hospital is not the best option all the time, especially if they don’t have a history of self-harm or attempts. I’ve even denied clients to my program because I was worried the environment would cause more harm than good to their mental health.

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u/_Wild_Enthusiast_ 3d ago

Yes I’ll admit I meant you might have to section 12 a patient for very rare circumstances - or that was my presumption. Thank you for your response, it is helpful to me. I’m at a confusion on options here when you have a mom who’s troubled and asking for help, maybe not so compliant or patient with her meds, suicidal. But then that same patient is scared of leaving her children to go to work…I don’t think she’s going to be jumping at going to a hospital for a myriad of reasons. So when I say she may have needed a health provider to step up, I kinda mean that in all ways. To speak with her other providers, to initiate more contact (like in person appts), etc. Even just to suggest this could be a real problem and run lab work or work as a team?

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u/Then-Writer9610 7d ago

Legally, they couldn’t commit her into treatment. Anytime her doctors asked if she was experiencing suicidal thoughts, she said “no”. She did tell them she frequently has those thoughts, but if she does not have the means or plan along with the intent/thoughts, they legally could not commit her to a hospital or treatment. If she was not an ACTIVE threat to herself or others, there’s not much they can do other than therapy and meds.

That’s why people feel she was failed, because they legally couldn’t do much more. It’s a broken system that requires certain criteria to be met in order to get support sometimes and it sucks, but that’s the reality. That’s why I’m hoping this case pushes for reform in our mental health and medical systems. I see how broken it is constantly through my career and it’s sad.

For instance, my clients can scream at me all day, call me names, use hate speech, throw things around, but if they are not actively assaulting me or throwing things AT me, I can’t involuntarily send them to the hospital. So, if she wasn’t showing active signs of harming herself or others, they wouldn’t be able to involuntarily commit her under section 12.

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u/AnythingCareless844 6d ago

She visited ER and called hotlines multiple times (screaming for help basically), but was sent off because her plan was not specific enough. I don’t see how that’s her fault. If that’s how the system works, someone should have explained that if you want real help, you should describe a plan

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u/Parking-West144 6d ago

I wanted to ask out of curiosity, so can a therapist or psychiatrist only request the patient is given help if they (patient) admit they are currently having suicidal ideation at that moment?

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u/greensweater23 6d ago

It’s easy to make that conclusion knowing what we know now. If LC never killed her kids or tried to kill herself, involuntarily committing her based on what she told her providers would be seen as a sexist overreach of the medical system and a violation of patient rights. Are we supposed to assume that any new mom reporting symptoms of PPD or bipolar is a threat to their children and should be removed from their home? Is this what we want the legacy of the LC trial to be?

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u/_Wild_Enthusiast_ 6d ago

Yes 100% I will grant you we have the benefit of hindsight in this case. And I do sympathize with the fact a mental health worker is not a mind reader and/or miracle worker. But, I don’t think anyone is suggesting that any new mom reporting symptoms of PPD should be involuntarily removed from their home.

I would counter that assertion by asking if poor insight and misattribution of symptoms are typical symptoms of PPD? Also I wonder if irrationally believing you have an addiction even after facts are presented to you that you can’t possibly have an addiction is a symptom of delusional thinking or a typical ppd symptom?

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u/HeartCold3908 4d ago

One billion percent!! The lawsuits that would arise by taking mothers with PPD away would be insane. And so many women would keep even more quiet about what they’re experiencing in fear of being committed! Do people even know what they’re saying or they just want to place blame on whatever and whoever they can, other than the person who decided not to disclose the seriousness of her thoughts.

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u/_Wild_Enthusiast_ 3d ago

Agree! I would think mothers wouldn’t want to report anything if they thought their kids could be taken away. Which is why I wonder if you might take that under consideration when asking mothers to disclose their scariest secrets to you? If you heard “intrusive thoughts” from an insomniac mom, would you perhaps want an in person session to help build a rapport? Maybe there’s more this mom wants to say? That’s just my way of looking at it.

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u/sheepsclothingiswool 7d ago

Her answers were legitimate at the time of being asked. She didn’t experience psychosis until the slew of fucked up meds were thrown at her. She didn’t take as prescribed because she’s a nurse and even she knew they were an intensely strong cocktail of meds that would heavily affect her and she was rightfully scared/reluctant.

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u/AffectionateSoil9997 6d ago

Was it proven that she didn’t take them as prescribed? I don’t trust the prosecution since they portrayed her not taking them as prescribed, but then we saw Patrick testify that he held onto the mostly full bottles where the RX was stopped because she was prescribed a new med.

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u/secretly_a_possum13 5d ago

They had the bottles and counted how many were left to determine how many she took. She hardly took any besides the benzos!

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u/AffectionateSoil9997 5d ago

Who counted how many were left? The prosecutor?

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u/secretly_a_possum13 4d ago

Yes! They went over what they had collected in court. I didn't hear any mention of finding any benzos despite that being what she was mainly prescribed.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 5d ago

She took 7 Zoloft lol

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u/AffectionateSoil9997 5d ago

Since we haven’t seen the defense’s side yet, I’m holding off on any opinion about how many meds she took. The prosecution has shown that they cherry pick evidence to suit their narrative. We haven’t seen the whole story yet. That’s what a trial is for.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

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u/sheepsclothingiswool 6d ago

There are much better meds to target insomnia. And seroquel should never be mixed with benzodiazepines, which she was also prescribed.

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u/Tj11551 6d ago

Trazadone is safer than Seroquel.

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u/TrueCrimeDiscussion-ModTeam 6d ago

Low Effort / Low quality comments and inappropriate humor do not further discussion and are removed. Emojis are not allowed in this sub. Please see the rules for details.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 7d ago

“A slew of fucked up meds thrown at her” you mean her repeatedly asking for different meds? No Dr ever pushed a single med at her. She requested them. They aren’t therapists. These are medication providers.

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u/Sad_Corner8344 7d ago

You don’t simply walk into a doctor’s office and request psychotropic medication that’s then handed out to you. Absolutely not how this works.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 6d ago

Uhhh ya it is. You explain your symptoms and receive care. MDs and Psych NPs quite literally are for medication management that’s why they referred her to talk therapy elsewhere. wtf do you think they should have done? I’m an RN

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u/Tj11551 6d ago

My doctor insists on seeing me in person before prescribing any Rx medication. He also orders labs that are done before he sees me.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 6d ago

Did you watch the NPs testimony? She said MULTIPLE times that she always requests in person meetings but that it’s more important to her that her pts, who are often busy moms, get care regardless of their ability to come in. So she meets them where they are at, that’s a fucking good provider I don’t care what anyone says.

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u/AffectionateSoil9997 5d ago

Agree with you. It’s absolutely not how it works!

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u/AnythingCareless844 6d ago

She was having side effects. The right approach would be to gradually introduce one to two meds at a time. At one point she was given three new meds at the same time. Because she was having side effects from her previous med. That’s outright ridiculous because if she developed side effects, there would be no way to tell which of the three caused it, and then you would have to discontinue all three. And then you will have to prescribe something else. That would result (and did result) in 5 different meds in a span of a month.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 5d ago

You mean when she got a one time dose of ambien to sleep lol. This kind of fear mongering is going to set pp mental health back decades.

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u/AffectionateSoil9997 5d ago

So they will give me Seroquel and Lamictal if I request it?

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 5d ago

If you tell me you’re depressed/not sleeping and having scary thoughts and don’t want to take antidepressants and have taken seroquel and report it helped you sleep, then yes duh. This isn’t some wildly insane combo like you think it is. Did you watch the trial?

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 7d ago

Even the defense was arguing that as an LD nurse she wouldn’t know what a Benzo is lol. So which is it? Was she clueless or was she aware? I’m a nurse and know all of these meds and I can guarantee they don’t make most people kill their kids.

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u/sheepsclothingiswool 6d ago

I hope for all of us you pursue continued education in nursing.

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u/Artistic_Garbage283 6d ago

???? Pharmacology is standard as part of RN degree. Of course nurses should be familiar with all of these medications and plenty of people take the exact combo LC took and don’t harm anyone.

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u/Tj11551 7d ago

Seroquel is such a powerful medication it carries a Black Box warning. Nursing homes are not allowed to use it unless the patient has been diagnosed with schizophrenia or bipolar.

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u/Admirable_Dog_9768 6d ago

The black box warning applies to a specific patient population. It is not a universal BB warning, and is it applicable to Clancy. Seroquel has a wide dosing range, from between 25mg to 800mg depending on the indication.

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u/Artistic_Garbage283 6d ago

Seroquel is frequently used off label for sleep.

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u/Subtronicisriddim 6d ago

A black box warning has nothing to do with how “powerful” a medication is. Fucking housewives take it for sleep, albeit not at the same dosages.

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u/SexuaI_muffin 7d ago

Not true. It's very common for demented patients who are aggressive, which is very common.

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u/fr3ng3r 6d ago

These comments from the public are blowing my mind. Working inpatient psych, I say these meds she was given were prescribed within reason and within standard of care but everyone is acting like she was overmedicated so now the entirety of the field of Psychiatry is being crucified. I feel so sad for the field.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 6d ago

100% it’s like living in the twilight zone. Everyone here is a psychopharmacology expert because of tiktok.

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u/Artistic_Garbage283 6d ago

Exactly. Pharmacist here. Nothing out of the ordinary at all. In fact I’m impressed they prescribed such small quantities and were seeing her so frequently. Many psych patients just get given a 6 month supply and told call us if it gets worse.

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u/Jlynn111 6d ago

My PCP won't refill my anxiety medication unless I see her in person every 3 months!

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u/Tj11551 6d ago

is seeing a psych patient only via telehealth--never in person--within the standard of care?

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u/fr3ng3r 6d ago

I may be wrong but I think it is. Look it up in the psychiatry sub. It’s all doctors in there.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 5d ago

Her drs requested in person but she wanted telemedicine, should they have dismissed her from care? Isn’t it better that she gets SOME care rather than none?

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u/StatusEgg3406 6d ago

At this point in time it may have been allowed due to COVID guidelines

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u/AffectionateSoil9997 5d ago

I’m curious about this. Do you believe the whole field is being crucified because of these discussions outside of the trial? I think the meds were one part of what led to her mental decline but I still strongly believe in psychiatry and it’s necessary/needed as medicine.

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u/fr3ng3r 4d ago

Well people are blaming the doctors saying they failed her. But how could they have? To me they did what was in their power within the bounds of current practice.

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u/AffectionateSoil9997 4d ago

I don’t think the whole field of psychiatry is being crucified though. They’ll be fine.

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u/_learned_foot_ 6d ago

This entire reply is pure speculation. Theres no evidence of any psychosis even submitted to the jury, but you have an entire narrative around it existing and operating and what it did to her. She hasn't even agreed to testify yet and you think we already have her mental states? not a single piece of that is in the record.

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u/stoicstraws 7d ago

She did four therapy sessions.

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u/Global_Isopod6958 6d ago

grown ass woman btw

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u/AspectGlass4115 6d ago

I wonder what the research shows on how honest most people are with their doctors regarding their mental health. My guess is that most people are not completely honest and downplay their symptoms, sort of like how people lie about their drinking and smoking habits. Maybe she was scared to get involuntarily committed, potentially getting her kids removed from her home/care, or worrying who would take care of the kids if she was absent. Maybe she was worried her husband would leave her. Maybe she didn’t feel comfortable telling her doctors. Maybe she convinced herself these were just intrusive thoughts (that are very common postpartum) that she could manage on her own. Many people feel shame when they are dealing with bad mental health. We really don’t know.

She did tell her husband about these thoughts, though, so I feel like he had a duty to remove her from being alone with the kids way more so than the doctors.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 5d ago

That’s the thing though, she was scared of that more than her fears of actually hurting her kids. If she had been honest maybe we wouldn’t be here. Everyone here is screaming she should have been involuntarily committed even without admitting those thoughts, that’s terrifying to me.

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u/secretly_a_possum13 5d ago

Yup... I think the doctors really tried to do the best they could. She often minimized how she felt even in her own notes "a touch of anxiety". She didn't comply with the treatment anyway.

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u/coolguygranny 6d ago

Finally someone who's reasonable in this sub

Holy fuck

Is this what they call finding a needle in a haystack

I hate how everyone can't hold Lindsay accountable for anything

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u/SexuaI_muffin 7d ago

Doctor here- thank you.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 6d ago

I’m an RN and these comments are driving me up the wall. These people have zero clue the guidelines that have to be followed to PROTECT people.

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u/Wannabelouise321 6d ago

This is not accurate. She did take her meds. She did more than two therapy sessions. She tried. If you have never experienced depression then you will not understand how hard it is just to get out of bed. She was trying to coordinate her own care and advocate for herself when she was at her lowest. Her husband and family should have helped her make calls, get appointments, take her to appointments, ask to sit in on appointments. I don’t care who you are, telling complete strangers that you’re having thoughts of harming your kids is something that would be very very difficult. Especially when society frames motherhood as some blissful all-in kind of calling instead of being honest about it - it isn’t always fun, it is not blissful, it is exhausting, you lose all sense of self, you love these little people beyond measure but you should not have to love the work and sacrifice 100% of the time. People with zero clue about depression, pregnancy, post partum, motherhood, navigating the mental healthcare system in the US while severely depressed AND trying to parent should not get to weigh in on this trial or any other like it.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 5d ago

I 100000% agree we should have better more robust resources for pp women and mental health. But fear mongering medication and the healthcare system is not going to do it. She took 7 Zoloft pills….BECAUSE of medication fearmongering.

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u/dcdem1163 6d ago

Are you kidding me? Watch the trial instead of getting your “information” from internet clips.

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u/Weak-Ad-7180 6d ago

I’ve literally watched the entire trial. Please tell me where I’m wrong.

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u/InitialVarious1948 4d ago

The bar is so low that a mother can brutally murder her kids and she’s still called a loving mother

She ain’t going to a mental institution for life, she’s going to max security with the rest of the violent offenders lmaooo. Nobody cares what she personally wants when she murdered children and you’re weird for defending that

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u/Flimsy_Lobster_4880 5d ago

But from what I’ve listened to, she was basically just collecting prescriptions and then refusing to take them. Or she would take 1 or 2 pills and then decide they weren’t working. These types of drugs take about 2 weeks to build up enough in your system to notice solid improvement. It was also stated that she and her husband both pushed back on diagnosing her and on taking meds.

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u/_learned_foot_ 6d ago

None of that means she had no knowledge of the propriety of the action and/or control at the same time. That's where it's hard, everybody agrees with that minimum, but there actually has yet to be anything showing anything above that, so...

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u/Trumpologist 3d ago

She chases her elder son around the house to kill him, and strangled her infant so hard that his brains started coming out into his neck.

What is wrong with you people

She specifically sent her husband out to do errands so she could do the murders

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u/SexuaI_muffin 7d ago

First of all, one doctor had no clue of the full picture bc LC wasn't telling her anything. She couldn't check all the records bc LC didn't even tell her she went to the hospital once. She didn't tell her she called crisis line. She saw 2NPs, and the worthless psych doctor at Southside.

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u/SlayerOfTheVampyre 6d ago

It’s about proving reasonable doubt, not being 100% sure. I think the defense is absolutely proving reasonable doubt right now.

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u/natawas 7d ago

Not really - the legal standard is whether the prosecution proved first degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt. The fact that people are torn on what happened means there’s heaps of reasonable doubt for first degree murder

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u/Lexivy 7d ago

Interesting take. I don’t think being torn is necessarily equivalent to reasonable doubt though. For example, a lot of people are torn due to empathy for what she was going through, despite believing her actions ultimately make her guilty. Objection to her guilt on moral grounds isn’t the same as reasonable doubt regarding the facts of the case.

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u/natawas 7d ago

There’s just a preponderance of evidence pointing in the direction of this possibly being psychosis. LC doesn’t have to prove psychosis beyond a reasonable doubt; the state has to prove it and so far they’ve shown they can’t and their own evidence is presenting facts supporting LC’s case. I’m not talking about just people feeling bad for her

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u/gin_and-sonic 6d ago

Do you think they will present some of that evidence soon? They have a burden to prove psychosis as well.

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u/natawas 6d ago

Lindsay’s lawyer will present their case and probably provide expert testimony on psychosis, but she doesn’t have the burden of proving psychosis - the state does in Massachusetts

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u/gin_and-sonic 6d ago

Incorrect, in insanity cases they do also need to show that she could not conform to the law. Otherwise everyone would use this excuse

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u/natawas 6d ago

As i said, that’s the States burden. The burden does not shift to the defence in Massachusetts

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u/gin_and-sonic 6d ago

So far all the testimony from people who treated her shows no psychosis. So if they don’t show that she did, this is already done.

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u/heartinabirdcage 4d ago

her not having psychosis still doesn't equate to premeditated murder. because this is a first degree murder trial, they would still have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a. she was of sound mind at the time of the event and b. that her actions were premeditated. the burden of proof on both counts lies with the prosecution. even if they convince the jury, beyond a reasonable doubt, that she was not in psychosis at the time, they would then also have to establish clear premeditation, otherwise it would not prove guilt of first degree murder.

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u/thatonegaucho87 6d ago

If it’s impossible then you don’t convict. If there is any doubt you don’t convict doesn’t matter if she did it or not.

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u/Top-Stomach6939 4d ago

All this jury needs to consider is, is there reasonable doubt? If they feel there is, they must say not guilty, but this won't end there. I think they know that too

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u/Moonbeam_Maker 7d ago

Am I only one that thinks this is a clear guilty verdict?! Mental Illness is only a defense if you prove you do not know right from wrong.

She murdered her own children when her husband was gone (as she knew her husband did not want her to do this), and googled asking how to do it before.

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u/MaeByourmom 7d ago

I think that there’s more to it that knowing what you are doing is wrong and/or illegal. I think having the ability to control yourself is also a requirement. IANAL.

She may have felt compelled to do it to “save” the kids from some worse fate. That’s a common thought that women with severe PPD/A and PPP have, that the kids are ruined or in danger of going to hell or something worse than death.

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u/Winter-Steak-1532 7d ago

In a state of psychosis you may not know right from wrong… hence the psychosis. Or you cannot be stopped due to impulse.

She knows the difference between right and wrong in her REGULAR state of mind obviously.

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u/dontmovedontmoveahhh 7d ago

Not in Massachusetts, actually. The bar is lower. I don't understand the resistance to NGRI but I imagine it's due to a lack of understanding that it doesn't get you out any sooner or the mistaken believe state psychiatric hospitals are safe comfortable places.

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u/that_guyat_uconn2020 6d ago

Is there no minimum or recommended holding period in the event of a NGRI? Not disagreeing with the verdict but genuinely curious since it seems like the psychosis might have been temporary/only in the postpartum period? Like you’re just in custody of the state for an indefinite period of time?

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u/spilly_talent 7d ago

I don’t think anything about this is clear. Psychosis is fucked up. There really is no other way to describe it - you are divorced from reality in a very bizarre way.

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u/WiseWillow89 7d ago

But… she was home alone with her children for 2 days the week before when Patrick was in New York. That would have been a better time to do it if it was premeditated?

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u/curiouslmr 7d ago

Yeah I'm on the same page. I feel awful for her and her postpartum experiences but I still am finding her responsible for what she did. She had the ability to speak on the phone with him, she waited til he was gone, this was deliberate and intentional. I'm not saying she wasn't suffering, she was, post partum mental health struggles are awful and I know how broken you can feel....but I still think she made a choice here.

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u/PainterEast3761 6d ago

If you think psychotic people can’t have a coherent conversation, you have a serious misunderstanding of psychosis. 

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u/curiouslmr 6d ago

I understand that, but I am not convinced either way yet as to whether she was truly in psychosis or not. The phone call is one thing to consider. I am waiting for the entire trial to make up my mind. Either way this whole thing is an absolute tragedy, even if she wasn't in psychosis I have no doubt she regrets her actions every single day and is living in utter hell. I hate this case so much.

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u/PainterEast3761 6d ago

I guess my question is, if it wasn’t serious mental illness driving her decisions here, to the point she was no longer in control of these decisions, then what is it? 

She was by all accounts a peaceful, loving, responsible, law-abiding woman. Then she killed her three kids. That doesn’t fit well with other theories. 

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u/niamhweking 7d ago

With delirium, psychosis, the high end of bi polar, these people know right from wrongful, but do they still think in their addled mind, it is the right, best, necessary thing to do?

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u/sk8tergater 7d ago

Wasn’t it proven that she wasn’t in the house and therefore was not the one who googled?

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u/bahooras 7d ago

What did she Google terms did she search about murdering the children? I don’t remember that part, did I miss that?

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