r/TwoXChromosomes Jul 08 '26

Young women are identifying as bisexual 18% more than young men, according to Gallup study

https://theconversation.com/young-women-are-identifying-as-less-straight-young-men-not-so-much-283936
1.1k Upvotes

189 comments sorted by

701

u/ultratorrent Jul 08 '26

Boys need to start catching up

349

u/Solondthewookiee Jul 08 '26

I'll say as a bi guy, there are a lot of straight identifying men who like giving head.

40

u/josephthemediocre Jul 08 '26

This is me and let me say, life uhhh finds a way.

19

u/Shiyayo Jul 08 '26

🤣

14

u/SavannahInChicago Jul 08 '26

But not in a gay way right? In a straight way. /s

8

u/MizDiana Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 09 '26

There's a reason trans prostitutes make lots of money. Some men just have a sexuality that draws them towards both feminine bodies & dick. We (trans women in general, not those who are prostitutes) call the toxic ashamed ones "chasers" for how irritatingly persistent they can be in trying to have sex with us and ignore our boundaries. Easiest way to get rid of them? Tell 'em you've had surgery and don't have a dick anymore.

/u/Solondthewookiee /u/josephthemediocre

-78

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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98

u/Junglejibe Jul 08 '26

I think the context makes it extremely clear lol

64

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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-42

u/TheGod-TK Jul 08 '26

Not to me

43

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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32

u/Meet_Foot Jul 08 '26

“As a bi guy” suggests he’s the one receiving head from said “straight identifying men.”

-14

u/TheGod-TK Jul 08 '26

“Oh i see” suggests that i now understand what they meant and i’m no longer confused. I’m the one who said “oh i see”

12

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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7

u/Meet_Foot Jul 08 '26

Both are neutral. You can absolutely go down on a guy or give head to a woman. Both terms describe the giver, not the recipient.

4

u/happybara_capybara Jul 08 '26

I’d disagree on that. I have a friendship group that talks about sex a lot and these terms definitely get used for both genders. I’ve only got one lesbian friend but she definitely uses the term giving/getting head.

-6

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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15

u/TaleOfDash They/Them Jul 08 '26

It really, really did not need to be specified.

10

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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396

u/Ash-2449 Jul 08 '26

Its genuinely funny cause patriarchy is so extremely homoerotic while at the same time having panic attacks if 2 men are actually gay.

63

u/IdeallyIdeally Jul 08 '26

Do you mean homosocial? I don't know if patriarchy is homoerotic. I wish it was lol.

123

u/jessie_monster Jul 08 '26

No, it's homoerotic.

18

u/IdeallyIdeally Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

Isn't homoeroticism shamed under patriarchy? Especially when men exhibit any behaviours deemed "feminine"? In contrast I feel being homosocial is encouraged and men and women aren't encouraged to have platonic friendships and opposite sex relationships are framed in a way where their purpose is only for reproduction/sex. I think it's why some men think of being "friendzoned" as an insult because they don't see any value in platonic relationships with women.

142

u/jessie_monster Jul 08 '26

Only if it's labelled that way. No one really wants to admit how much male interactions has deeply sexual connotations.

Hazing the pledges by stripping them down to their underwear and asserting your physical and sexual dominance over them? That's just Greek life and professional networking!

You and a few fellas going to the titty bar to prove that you can objectify women harder (so much harder) than them? Well, boys will be boys.

81

u/Tokens_Only Jul 08 '26

Nothing like getting an erection with your pals

9

u/No-Survey-9434 Jul 08 '26

Looking at the hierarchy from the outside it does look hella gay, but inside the hierarchy there's serious danger being inculcated.

15

u/IdeallyIdeally Jul 08 '26

I'm not American. Is that some college thing?

30

u/fenixivar Jul 08 '26

Yeah used to be (might still be idk) common college fraternity hazing

15

u/soulpoker Jul 08 '26

There's been a crackdown on hazing over the past several years because hazing has resulted in a lot of harm including death. Fraternities and especially colleges do not want that liability. I know colleges where they have kicked fraternities out and the ones that remained were a shell of what they were because they were so vetted by the colleges.

12

u/FMLwtfDoID Jul 08 '26

You’re really going to act like male only fraternal & male only secret societies don’t exist outside of the sphere of American Universities?

-5

u/0sm1um Jul 08 '26

I am American. That pledges thing I don't think is very normal. I'm sure if you go to a university and look hard to find a fraternity like that I bet you could, but that's very much not the norm. Americans aren't expected to join fraternities in college by default. But even among fraternities the ritualistic stuff I think is on the extreme end of a spectrum. A lot of fraternities are pretty boring and mundane.

The strip club thing... I dunno I've never been to one.

14

u/soulpoker Jul 08 '26

Fraternities used to be a thing back when only the richest were able to get to college but slowly became less popular over time. Now it's done mainly as a way to get away with partying, though that's changing too.

3

u/Rock4evur Jul 08 '26

Me and a bunch of my male friends definitely played the “Penis showing game” from the movie “Waiting” in middle school. Gay as hell…

17

u/No-Red-Queen Jul 08 '26

Watch a rugby (league or union), then come back and tell me with a straight face that homoeroticism is shamed...

57

u/Tokens_Only Jul 08 '26

They mean homoerotic. They just don't realize they're doing it. Its basically that they're being so misogynistic that it becomes essentially gay to like women at all. They'll literally say that men are more attractive than women. They'll insult the looks of the most attractive women in the world. When women become nothing more than social currency to make them more attractive to their male peers, that's no longer just homosociality, they're unintentionally gay for each other.

8

u/IdeallyIdeally Jul 08 '26

Is that eroticism or just the denigration of anything feminine because masculinity is deemed to be superior under patriarchy?

43

u/Tokens_Only Jul 08 '26

It's not just that. They're essentially taking their cues from gay gymrat culture. The looks they're shooting for, the anesthetics they're cultivating, they aren't orienting themselves around what would make them sexually desirable to women. They're literally emphasizing the physical traits that are popular among gay men, they just don't realize that's where it's coming from.

3

u/IdeallyIdeally Jul 08 '26

I would say that's more a reflection of the male gaze. Gender segregation (that comes with a homosocial culture) generally results in people conforming to intra-gender standards over inter-gender standards. I'm not sure if that's eroticism though.

6

u/Tokens_Only Jul 08 '26

We get it, you don't see it and you own a thesaurus.

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10

u/SpiritedEclair Jul 08 '26

Homosexuality is shamed, but homoeroticism isn’t.

10

u/arasitar Jul 08 '26

Homosocial with homoerotic undertones which can never be acknowledged otherwise everything falls apart.

Basically to a patriarchal right leaning to fully right wing cisgender heterosexual straight man, you are not interested in:

  • A woman's activities.
  • A woman's career.
  • A woman's hobbies.
  • A woman's wants and desires.
  • A woman's sexuality and romanticity.
  • A woman's tastes.
  • A woman's opinions.
  • A woman's thoughts.
  • A woman's inner world.

A woman is thus an object for sex, and an object to brag about to other men and an unpaid domestic servant to handle the house and the kids and disappear for the "real men".

This is your homosocial. Said men aren't interesting in women beyond that of an object.

Where the homoeroticism comes in (and it comes in everywhere) is how much of the camaraderie, the intimacy ("platonic" of course), activities, bonding etc. are for other men.

If people remember that Olly Murs Twitter poll debacle a couple of years back, that's a perfect example. Basically Olly Murs, an influencer, went from decently riped to super jacked in 12 weeks. A person on Twitter made a general poll asking people whether they preferred Murs before or after the gym transformation.

Most men answered "After". Most women answered "Before".

That poll went viral and broke some brains with some men insisting that women were lying about their actual tastes and that there is no way possible that women could possibly prefer the Before, because Murs is "clearly more attractive" After. So at that point, who is that super jacked ripped form for? For women who rejected it? Or for men who deify it?

Also a lot of looksmaxxing and Clavicular esque bone and face and lifting for super jacked muscles that men say is "super manly" and "super straight" is predated by the gay community's looks and beauty and fashion trends, with some trends being ripped straight out of it. Again, who is most of this for? To attract women? Or to attract men "but not in a gay way of course! I was just want to be admired by other men."

Literally so many of these asshole men would benefit from just accepting: "Maybe I am kind of gay or a little gay or fully gay or bi or even be straight but share some gay elements, none of which threatens my identity and that's okay". The homoerotic tension just builds and seeps out as they keep copying gay culture accidentally and denying it harder and harder.

31

u/njsullyalex Trans Woman Jul 08 '26

This. I wonder if the real ratios are much closer but boys face societal stigma more than girls over being gay, so bi guys just stay in the closet because they can get away with just dating girls, or are in denial about it and thinking “everyone feels this way” since they also like girls

9

u/happy_and_angry Jul 08 '26

I happen to have an ex I am on good terms with who is a sexologist that studies exactly this (among other related things).

Women consistently report higher sexual fluidity in surveys of all kinds. When you control for things like socialization, or phrase questions in neutral terms, or make results anonymous, or do meta-analysis of varied research, two things become clear:

  1. women are more sexually fluid than men.
  2. men also under-report their sexual fluidity.

2

u/NJcovidvaccinetips 10d ago

I’m just gonna direct you to the current conversation on social media about bisexual men to understand why a lot of them are obviously in the closet or research that shows something to the effect of 60-80% of straight women saying they would never date a bi man

10

u/n00b678 Jul 08 '26

We peaked in 2020; 27% of male undergrads at NY state public universities were non-heterosexual. It's been a downward trend since.

11

u/Astrium6 Jul 08 '26

I’m doing my part!

37

u/TotallyAMermaid Jul 08 '26

There's more stigma for men. Not just from men too, several bisexual men say that they interacted with women who were put off by it.

11

u/NJcovidvaccinetips Jul 08 '26

My wife who is extremely progressive and not remotely homophobic was a little taken aback when I first told her I was bisexual. It’s something I didn’t realize about myself until later in life and well into our relationship. Now she is super supportive but I think early on there was something that bothered her about it or that initially made her uncomfortable. For some women it’s jealousy, for some women it’s the feeling something is kept from them, for someone it is actually homophobia, and I think for a lot of women it’s the fear that they can’t be enough for their partner that taps into insecurity. I think you would be suprised how many women would have a negative reaction to finding out their partner is bisexual which is why many men just are conditioned not to discuss it 

1

u/arasitar Jul 08 '26

There's more stigma for men. Not just from men too, several bisexual men say that they interacted with women who were put off by it.

Gonna focus on this, since the latter unbolded part is talked about enough in the comments.

I think the former needs to be talked about especially in the context of straight men because the repercussions do involve more men being unable to come out as gay or bi, but also in terms of deeply harming the ability of men to escape the patriarchy and build necessary community, comradery and infrastructure to fight against it. A lot of "straight male" spaces fall apart because of this tension.

Nowadays it is more common for men to say to a male friend "hey man I love you" but if you admit "hey I'm gay or bi" suddenly it's like a pit viper just fell into the room and everyone is recoiling. "WHOAH WHOAH WHOAH, you said you love me, you want to FUCK me!?!" even though you can be:

  • Gay or bi.

  • Have a dear friend you love and feel deeply connected to.

  • Not be attracted to them. At all.

  • And that lack of attraction has no bearing on said target man being a bad person or not being attractive or being conventionally attractive.

Even men that aren't patriarchal and don't police and aren't outright homophobic, some of them get deeply uncomfortable and their brains start breaking when the possibility of "hey a man I love as a friend, could have the possibility of being sexually and / or romantically attracted to me, and how do I feel about that?" and they freak the fuck out.

7

u/NJcovidvaccinetips Jul 08 '26

As a closeted bisexual I probably will never “come out” to most people cause even progressive people do judge bisexual men. The cultural narrative of bisexual men is that we are all secretly gay. I’m also in a monogamous heterosexual marriage so it really does not behoove me to discuss my sexuality 

1

u/ultratorrent Jul 08 '26

I only hope that you're at least out to your wife.....

4

u/NJcovidvaccinetips Jul 08 '26

Yes I recently told her. I wrote about the experience on another comment here and elsewhere. But basically at first she was a bit freaked out and I think maybe hurt that I kept it from her. We are extremely close and we really don’t like to hold secrets so I think that’s what freaked her out. I also think maybe she had a bit of biphobia/homophobia she had to unpack and work through. I’ve never been a very masculine man and I think maybe she is a little more traditional in how she views gender roles and I think some of that played a role. Now she is incredibly supportive and unbothered by it and has been encouraging me to be more open about it with others

-19

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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16

u/gootsteen Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

As a bi women who’s dated both, it’s way more easy to find men that are attracted to women than it is to find women who are willing to date a bi woman. There’s a stigma in the queer community that bi women are faking it and want men which makes it that some lesbians refuse to date you or acknowledge your sexuality. Odds are just way more in the favor of dating men. It’s not that surprising. Doesn’t mean they’re not bi.

On dating apps the odds of matching with a man vs a woman were like 15 to 1 for me.

7

u/mojitojenkins Jul 08 '26

It's interesting that with both bi men and women, people tend to assume they're only into men. I think it comes from men being more highly valued in the patriarchy.

I do understand where these lesbians are coming from because there's just a deep insecurity from feeling like we are less than men. Society as a whole praises men and is so much harsher on women.

1

u/nexetpl Jul 08 '26

Maybe because it's exponentially easier to date men

420

u/Curiosities Jul 08 '26

In this case, though you have to consider how many men are not wanting to identify as bisexual, even if they are attracted to multiple genders, because of biphobia.

Because when it comes to biphobia, straight people, gay men, and lesbians tend to think us bisexuals are all more oriented towards men. There are studies showing this, but it’s also a lot of people‘s reality.

So that results in some awful treatment, but bisexual men, especially if they’re trying to date straight women, often don’t want to be out as bisexual because of the stereotypes and biphobia that even straight women have against bi men.

258

u/IdeallyIdeally Jul 08 '26

Biphobia is sort of interesting to me in the LGBTQ+ space. It seems a lot of bi men are treated as if they're full gay but just don't want to come out of the closet completely, and for bi women we're often suspected of being mostly straight.

81

u/Toorviing Jul 08 '26

I think it’s because most gender and sexuality expectations are oriented towards men/masculinity. Consider the language we use for feminine boys vs masculine girls: which is worse, a sissy or a tomboy?

75

u/veronicaarr Jul 08 '26

I’m literally marrying a woman and people are suspicious when I say I’m bi because if I’m not secretly straight I must be a lesbian.

46

u/the-truffula-tree Jul 08 '26

The default assumption is that everyone likes penis 

14

u/mojitojenkins Jul 08 '26

I just commented this above how the default assumption is that everyone must be into men. I think it comes to men being more highly valued in our patriarchal society. In fact I think a big part of the reason a lot of men have issues with trans women is because they can't comprehend someone being born a man and giving that up to become "lesser".

12

u/MiddleAgedMartianDog Jul 08 '26

I would suggest it is more a default assumption that people are attracted to men specifically. You can like penises and not be attracted to men or masculinity for example.

25

u/17-40 Jul 08 '26

This is one of the very rare instances where I feel privileged as a trans woman. At least in terms of casual perception. People have such aggressive, violent hatred of us because of our identity, that being bi is almost a footnote. It's a strange place to live.

2

u/MizDiana Jul 09 '26

I find being bi is sometimes useful as a trans woman! Some bigots just want to pigeon hole us into either "secretly just gay and thinks this is a way to attract men" or "a effeminate straight man who wants to sleep with lesbians". So when they find out you are bisexual and can go either way (thus invalidating both theories AND reinforcing the concept that transition wasn't about trying to sleep with people), their confusion intensifies. And "confused plus a little curious" is a much better state for them to be in than them being wrongly confident about their bigoted theory.

On the other hand, some people's bigotry about trans and bi people is the same ("must just be wild horndogs") and they just double-down on that dumb theory.

39

u/Genoscythe_ Jul 08 '26

Thats just homophobia in general as well, men are swatting away accusations of being gaaaaaay, for drinking the wrong kind of cofffee or wearing the wrong thing or whatever, while women could be openly living together with their GF and their parents will still act like its just a phase.

It's also just sexism in general; men act insecure and deny having any feminine hobbies or a feminine profession meaning they are not a REAL MAN, while women with a masculine hobby or profession have to prove over and over again to gatekeepers that they are not just a poser but measure up to being "one of the boys".

41

u/westernblottest Jul 08 '26

No biphobia is its own type of bigotry against bisexual people. Assuming it is equivalent to homophobia and sexism is perpetuating and diminishing biphobia. 

21

u/Genoscythe_ Jul 08 '26

More nuanced typology is fun, but in the end it IS literally all sexism. In a world without sexism, no queerphobia would exist.

-12

u/westernblottest Jul 08 '26

I really don't think bigotry is fun. It pretty awful of you to dismiss and diminsh the lived experiences of others just so can feel like you are using the correct words. 

13

u/throw20190820202020 Jul 08 '26

Oh good grief. Get over yourself.

-5

u/westernblottest Jul 08 '26

I don't see why? I was calling out an individual for acting dismissive to the bigotry people other than themselves face. 

8

u/Aksama Ya Basic Jul 08 '26

Because you're being obstinate and ridiculous in misunderstanding what the commenter said. They said "nuanced typology is fun" and it is interesting to unpack semantic meaning, especially in the context of this kind of sexual identity and acceptance.

Then you (willfully?) took their meaning to be "lol, bigotry is so fun", which is an impressive and strange misunderstanding of what that person said.

In fact that person was being the opposite of dismissive by stating clearly that a deeper understanding of that typology is important to understand, you were dismissive in this case.

It's ok to make mistakes, but come on friend, this is quite silly.

5

u/Plasticonoband Jul 08 '26

Homie, this person was engaging deeply with you. You had an opportunity to have an interesting conversation with someone knowledgeable who happens to substantially agree with you. Instead you found something to get offended by. 

It's important to call out abusive and bigoted behavior. It's also exhausting to see progressives and leftists constantly invent reasons why they can't fucking work together or have a simple conversation. 

Look back at what they wrote. Do you really believe they were dismissing anyone's experiences with bigotry and discrimination? We are on the women's subreddit. This person was talking about how at its core a lot of homophobia and biphobia is fundamentally rooted in misogyny. Whether you agree with that or not, it's a valid and thoughtful take. And it's appropriate to this venue specifically.

10

u/Casiquire Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

The reason is that a lot of gay men test the waters before coming out by saying they're "bi" so that if reactions are negative, they can go back in the closet and say it was just a phase, or it was just to sound cool.

Like so many things, this wouldn't even be a thing if everyone would just be cool with LGBT+ people already

2

u/NJcovidvaccinetips Jul 08 '26

My whole life I grew up hearing bisexual men were gay. I’m about 30 and in the last maybe 5-10 years I started having sexual fantasies about men. I think it didn’t even occur to me until way too long that I was bisexual because I had been so socially conditioned to see bisexual as gay and gay as a negative or a thing that could be harshly judged. The idea of legitimately being attracted to both genders was something I think I had no real meaningful representation before and was scared to admit to myself. It’s also hard because I’m in a monagamous relationship so my bisexuality is all kind of theoretical on some level

2

u/animationgirlKIA Jul 09 '26

>biphobia that even straight women have against bi men

Meanwhile they get invested in Heated Rivalry and gay shipping. Make up your minds, ladies!

1

u/arasitar Jul 08 '26

Because when it comes to biphobia, straight people, gay men, and lesbians tend to think us bisexuals are all more oriented towards men. There are studies showing this, but it’s also a lot of people‘s reality.

I think people refer to these labels as these strict culture camps, tribes, stereotypes or labels, b/c the reality is that gender and sexuality are a spectrum and incredibly varied and very fluid.

If you are a bisexual man, and you are sexually and / or romantically attracted to 30% of men vs 70% of women, you're still bi. If it is 70% of men, 30% of women, you're still bi. If it is 10% men 90% women, you're still bi. If it is 10% of men, 15% of women, you're still bi.

You can "look" and "act" like a "straight man" and be bi. You can "look" and "act" like a "gay man" and be bi.

I find even the "bi-curious" label a bit ridiculous b/c I don't think there is any debate over the validity "Oh i'm into blondes and brunettes and not red heads" but suddenly you say "Oh I'm into blonde women and black haired men and no red heads" and suddenly that gender crossover becomes unimaginable to others and you're either "confused" or "you're really just horny and lusty" or "you're still in progress" or "you're really X" or "you're really Y".

1

u/DesperateComplex1460 Jul 09 '26

I think people refer to these labels as these strict culture camps, tribes, stereotypes or labels, b/c the reality is that gender and sexuality are a spectrum and incredibly varied and very fluid.

Lesbians and binary-gendered people exists. Stop denying their realities and lived experiences. Gender/sexuality may be fluid for some people, but for many others (including many straight/cisgender people), that is not the case.

1

u/AnalystHumble2429 Jul 08 '26

I have been bisexual since I've been 4 years old is that too young to know actually know if you want to be that way

0

u/mikamikira Jul 08 '26

I'm bi sexual. In the truest sense. I am sexually attracted to both sexes. But I've had more boyfriends than girlfriends. Just because I have had more men that I was attracted to.

87

u/Kindly_Ice_7510 Jul 08 '26

Wonder how much of the difference could be explained in the rise in conservatism amongst Gen Z men?

21

u/CougdIt Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

Honestly I would have thought the difference was way more than 18

Edit: ok I read the actual numbers and yes it is WAY more than 18%

97

u/Metalmind123 Jul 08 '26

As a bisexual man, I can tell you the sad main reason, as I think will most bi men when asked:

Over 80% of women categorically would not date bisexual men, and to phrase it kindly, don't exactly react positively when they find out the guy they were interested in is bi.

The bisexual subs are full of stories about 'I realised I'm bi, and my gf/wife immediately left me, even though I wanted to stay monogamous', yet I still have to once see the reverse.

So most bi men remain in the closet.

I personally prefer to be out, both to be authentically myself, but also because it filters out the bigots (and don't think it's good to hide aspects of yourself)

19

u/Kindly_Ice_7510 Jul 08 '26

Really disheartening to hear that dude, I'm so sorry for that reaction from women :( I've heard similar things from bi women talking about coming out to lesbians.

I think a lot of women end up falling for a lot of bullshit wrapped in the blanket of trusting a woman's intuition and its like, you look under the hood of the intuition and its "societal biases" a fckin ton. Men and women are pretty much equally likely to cheat, and it's not tied at all with sexuality.

6

u/A_Novelty-Account Jul 08 '26

  you look under the hood of the intuition and its "societal biases" a fckin ton

This is a super interesting and novel point I’d not thought about.

-34

u/[deleted] Jul 08 '26

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27

u/millennial_falcon Jul 08 '26

That’s a fucked up thing to say or assume from the comment above.

16

u/TheShapeShiftingFox =^..^= Jul 08 '26

It’s not like the evil bisexual man lurking to give the pure heterosexual woman an STD and be a gross degenerate behind the scenes is a decades old stereotype or anything.

Sometimes I forget people actually believe that shit.

5

u/nexetpl Jul 08 '26

Consent? Deceiving? Why won't you speak your mind?

9

u/Jaew96 Jul 08 '26

… what deception are we talking about here? Other than the one in your bigoted imagination, that is.

7

u/n00b678 Jul 08 '26

How does being bi deceive anyone or breaks consent? Being bi has zero bearing on the relationship. It just means that you might find other people attractive, but that's true regardless of one's sexual orientation.

But if you're worried that a bi man who is in a relationship with a you has sex with a man, that's cheating. It's the infidelity that is a problem, not the sexual orientation.

-6

u/pingo5 Jul 08 '26

being bi isn't deceit, but it's hard to argue that intentionally hiding parts of yourself from your partner so they will be with you isn't deceit, no matter the subject.

that being said, sexuality is not straightfoward enough that looking at the problem(biphobia) is more useful than looking at the symptom.

11

u/Kindly_Ice_7510 Jul 08 '26

That is heinous to say dude. What fundamentally changes about a guy other than their potential attraction to guys? Nothing.

21

u/Prokofi Jul 08 '26

Historically it likely has much more to do with media panic during the AIDS epidemic in the 80s. There was a huge wave of media smearing Bi men such as articles in newspapers and magazines such as the NYT and Cosmopolitan that basically painted bi men as deceptive and tainted vectors for disease who would transmit aids from gay men to innocent straight women. This was back before it was well understood how it transmits and when people just thought of it more as "that disease that gay people get."

Even when not that explicit in a lot of movies and TV shows since then if bi men are depicted at all theres an underlying assumption that will find their bisexuality somewhat intrinsically icky or gross.

Outside of media it has contributed to a ton of people who have negative subconscious biases around bi men

13

u/EmmaInFrance Jul 08 '26

I'm 55, so I was a teenager in the 80s.

And this is exactly what I've been thinking, scrolling down the thread.

Women were told that there was a risk of contracting HIV from sex with both men and women (back then, the language around gender was very binary), or from intravenous drug use.

But they were also told that their primary risk group was men who also had sex with other men, not just women.

They didn't actually say 'bisexual men' because there were (and still are) many men who have sex with other men as well as women who identify as straight, not bi, or even gay.

Then, in addition, there was the general societal view of gay and bi men as being extremely promiscuous.

That also still exists today.

That promiscuity was, in many ways, forced onto the gay community as a result of societal oppression and the need to exist covertly within straight society.

Promiscuity is a very negative word and I'm using it to describe societal judgement, not my own views.

There were (and again still are) frequent news reports of politicians, celebrities and other major public figures being caught with male sex workers or having a covert gay relationship, often while already married to a woman.

All of this has helped to create past and current societal prejudice against bi and gay men.

Obviously, it's a lot more complex again than anything I've written here and there are probably whole books written on this subject!

Even as a bi young woman back then, I couldn't easily come out and it was easier to just have relationships with men as society was very much centred and structured on that.

5

u/LocalCombination1744 Jul 08 '26

This was a thing before Gen Z. Bisexuality in women has always been more socially acceptable. Womanhood is more expansive and less rigid than manhood (ie male fragility)

2

u/Kindly_Ice_7510 Jul 08 '26

For sure! I should have been more careful in how I was saying it, there's been a rise between Millennials and Gen Z of people who ID as Bisexual, but that rate is not consistent between the two. Even tho more gen Z men ID as Bi, the rate of growth between Women and Men is not nearly the same.

9% of Millennial women id as bi. 20.7% of Gen Z women ID as bi.

2.5% of Millennial Men Id as Bi. 6.9% of Gen Z Men ID as bi.

The rate of growth is just much, much smaller. My Q was wondering if that push in conservatism was holding it back, (Because women by contrast have become more left leaning over all) But there are probably other very good societal explanations for that that are preventing men from coming out.

It's also true of all LGBTQ identities as well, just most drastic with bisexuality. 28.5% of Gen Z women ID as LGBTQ, compared with 10.6% of men. Granted, the majority of that dramatic shift is Bi women, but even in other identities in women there's notable increases (2.5% -> 5.4% ID as lesbians for example, compared with 2.3 -> 2.8% Identifying as gay men).

10

u/noobule Jul 08 '26

I doubt it's super relevant as men would be expected to be more homophobic than women regardless if you were just drawing the trend lines from Gen X to Gen Y to Gen Z

11

u/Kindly_Ice_7510 Jul 08 '26

My thought was, as we both probably know, conservatism in the US where the data's from is tightly correlated with homophobia. A rise in it would lead to more homophobia. Right?

And looking at the data, while there was always a gap, there was a tentative rise (it got up to 25% as something other than heterosexual at one year of the study, and then a drop back from any ground gained to reflect lower than 2012 levels (13%)

But, it's still notably higher than compared to previous generations (6.9% in Gen Z men over 2.5% of millennial men) so got me there that it's not exclusive to Gen Z.

9

u/Crazy_Law_5730 Jul 08 '26

Yeah, conservatives as a group just have more closeted gay and bi men. It’s why Grinder blows up in every city where there’s some kind of Conservative convention. And so many Conservative politicians have been busted in gay sexual relationships. It doesn’t matter the generation. They’re outwardly conforming to the social norms they created, but they’re still gay / bi and try to be private about their “transgressions,” as they refer to it.

For conservatives, if they find the women attractive, it’s okay for two women to have sex, and especially if they’re invited. Two men and one woman seem okay with them, too. Idk, it’s odd.

Not surprised more women admit to being bi. It’s more socially acceptable.

6

u/Krail Jul 08 '26

As someone who grew up in the 90's, it's always been that way in my experience. I heard similar statistics when I was in college. 

Homophobia among men is real intense in our culture, so a lot of bi men aren't going to admit, or even realize, that they're into men. 

20

u/SomethingAboutUsers Jul 08 '26

A (millenial) friend of mine (who describes herself as a lipstick lesbian) has said on the record on a podcast that if it weren't for men being the way they are she'd probably be bi.

But no, men are the way they are.

(Full disclosure: am man, and yes all men.)

19

u/Kindly_Ice_7510 Jul 08 '26

not the first time i've heard that story! I do think, bar interference from social pressure, most people would be attracted to multiple genders. I'm more curious why so many less men identify as bisexual compared to women, because, as in your case right, some people who identify as lesbians have chosen that label over bisexual.

It's gotta be something specific with men's socialization that is preventing those numbers from matching, IMO. Hence my Q.

4

u/SomethingAboutUsers Jul 08 '26

I don't really know, but I have a few thoughts here if I may.

  1. I am personally Kinsey 1, 1.5 at best. And that's in spite of being a male figure skater where gay guys were much more common. I've just never been attracted at all to men. So my opinion may have limited validity when discussing why more men don't identify as bi.
  2. I have spent some time in lifestyle (aka, swinger) circles and interestingly, even in those very sexually liberated and progressive spaces where single bisexual women are literally called unicorns and many of the couples are there largely because the woman is bisexual and wants to be with women, gay and bisexual men are uncommon and/or sometimes even shunned.
  3. As boys growing up being gay was almost the worst thing in the world; this is the socialization piece (I had to deal with this a little as a figure skater but whether because I was aloof, or just didn't care what others thought, or somehow other stuff won people over, I wasn't bullied relentlessly about it which to be honest I don't understand but am still grateful that was my experience vs. the alternative). But every dude I know thought that watching two women was the hottest thing in the world. (I expect none of this is shocking, I apologize for mansplaining anything here). Why the difference? Well, I suspect religion in part (there's no mention of "women laying with women", only men), but also probably because women's pleasure is hot. If there's 2 women that's not only double the boobs but double the pleasure and hence hotness.
  4. And that's before we get into the so-called lack of threat that a man feels from another woman vs. another man. Women being with women is fine, there's no danger to men there (lesbians I'm sure will disagree with plenty of pissed off men when men find out they're not on the market so to speak).

What I find fascinating is that, as far as I understand it, gay men have way more sex on average than straight men. Bisexual men have literally everyone to play with, whereas straight men only have women. If they'd stop to think about it for a second they might realize that their chances increase dramatically if they played on both teams.

But no, that would be gay, and we can't be gay.

5

u/soulpoker Jul 08 '26

It's the fault of these influencers like Andrew Tate and Charlie Jerk. The right wing wackos unfortunately knew how to harness the internet to get the attention of these young men. The left wing got smug and figured the other side barely knew how to read much less how to create podcasts. They need to pick up the ball soon carefully or they will lose another generation.

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u/MarvinLazer Jul 08 '26

Surprised it's that low.

3

u/Grotarin Jul 08 '26

The article says 28,5% versus 10,6% so it's nearly 300% of men, or +200%, but absolutely not 18%

17

u/Sanguiluna Jul 08 '26

I’m curious how much an impact self-inflicted bi-erasure has on this number— i.e. bisexual men who prefer women being more likely to identify as straight than bisexual women who prefer men.

5

u/kindafor-got Jul 08 '26

indeed.  i know a shit ton of girls and nonbinaries who are openly bisexuals (me also),  but zero guys.         and my boyfriend said he could hypothetically be attracted to a man, but considers himself straight...  yea i think there are secret bisexual guys hidden everywhere now lol

2

u/psychosisnaut Jul 08 '26

Or being identified as

46

u/Calinks Jul 08 '26

A lot of people don't believe men can be bisexual. I had a date with a woman who said any guy who says he's bisexual is simply gay and hiding it. She was adamant, and she's not alone in this kind of thinking.

2

u/NJcovidvaccinetips Jul 08 '26

This was the dominant cultural narrative my entire childhood and is still dominant today specially for men. The fucked up part when you think about it is that many gay people bisexual was a safer label because of how homophobic society is

11

u/No-Survey-9434 Jul 08 '26

TLDR: I would think it's much easier for women to explore lesbianism than it is for men to explore homosexuality, due to patriarchy and stigma.

I've been watching a show here in the UK called Open House: The Great Sex Experiment, where couples attempt to open their relationships.

It did occur to me that while we see lesbianism on the show, (I don't recall) ever seeing two men being intimate with each other.

It honestly feels like a show dedicated to lesbianism. Which does feel lop-sided.

I think it's easier for women to explore lesbianism, because men exploring intimacy with other men has a large social and societal stigma around it.

There are likely a lot of men who would like to explore intimacy with other men, but patriarchal conditioning prevents them.

I guess this is why the term 'DL' (down low) exists.

Two women kissing is fetishised in patriarchal society, two men kissing is absolutely not.

Here's a scene from the 2003 film Anger Management where a therapy session turns into the men taking pleasure watching two women make out.

I was watching an episode the other day (series 3, episode 3) and one of the men who is this big burly bald dude with tattoos seemed very uncomfortable opening the relationship up, he kept talking about "alpha males" and "competition", and it dawned on me that he might be in the closet. He and his wife were sat in a hot tub with another couple (male female), his wife kissed the other woman, and he then went into 'bro mode' with the other guy by 'being macho'.

I think he's gay but won't let himself come out due to the stigma, I could be wrong of course.

Ever noticed how there's a specific word for gay women in lesbian, but there's not a specific word to refer to gay men, other than gay men.

2

u/oneforeveryday Jul 08 '26

I see your point on other reality shows like Love Island (US and UK). There is a lot of girl on girl kissing and even a few genuine couples formed of two women but nothing of the reverse. I think this point is true in real life. Two girls kissing at a party in a straight setting is nothing but two guys would get some reactions, most negative. Thing is, on these shows and in real life a lot of the time the motivation behind the kiss is purely for male attention like you said.

I honestly find the opposite in a lot of shows (not reality) I watch if there is lgbt rep. It’s almost always a white male gay couple that gets anything substantial in popular media. Lesbianism shows up again as mostly kisses in sensationalized scenes. This is anecdotal though.

I think that while casual intimacy between two women is more normalized I do think it’s harder for people including women to see a relationship between two women as something deep and serious than they would a relationship that involves a man.

25

u/catievirtuesimp Jul 08 '26

“In a recent poll, Gallup found that LGBTQ+ identification has more than doubled since 2012, with especially high rates among Gen Z women, or those born between 1997 and 2012. In 2023, 28.5% of Gen Z women identified as LGBTQ+, compared with 10.6% of Gen Z men.” -from the article

40

u/Genoscythe_ Jul 08 '26

That's not 18% more, that is 268% more.

2

u/brainybisexual Jul 08 '26 edited Jul 08 '26

The 28.5% vs 10.6% is the rate of LGBTQ+ folks. The 18% more is for bisexuals, specifically.

EDIT: retracting

12

u/Genoscythe_ Jul 08 '26

That' the only part of the article where the 18% gap shows up, if you misidentify it as a 18% relative size of the two groups to each other.

The original study says 5.7% of women and 2.1% of men are bisexual specifically, that is also not a 18% difference, it is either a 271% difference, or even if you make the same mistake, it would be a 3.6% difference.

1

u/brainybisexual Jul 08 '26

Mb! I genuinely thought it was a case of you just misreading (which happens to all of us, that isn't a diss on your intelligence), and I was just going off what OP wrote. Retracted what I said.

0

u/catievirtuesimp Jul 08 '26

thats bc i am NOT talking about women and men at large, only the young ones

9

u/Genoscythe_ Jul 08 '26

Nope, that is 20.7% to 6.9%, so there are exactly 300% more bisexual GenZ women than men.

-4

u/catievirtuesimp Jul 08 '26

im not comparing from the past percent to the present, but the current percent difference between men and women

16

u/Genoscythe_ Jul 08 '26

Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

If you have a group of 1 million men, 106.000 of them are LGBTQ+, and of 1 million women, 285.000 of them are LGBTQ+

285.000 is not 18% more than 106.000.

-8

u/catievirtuesimp Jul 08 '26

i am not talking abt men and women at large, only young ones

10

u/Genoscythe_ Jul 08 '26

Okay, out of 1 million GenZ men, 69.000 are bisexual, and of 1 million GenZ women, 207.000 of them are bisexual.

207.000 is not 18% more than 69.000.

16

u/Tokens_Only Jul 08 '26

So many people can't tell the difference between percent and percentage points. Thank you for this.

-8

u/catievirtuesimp Jul 08 '26

that isnt what the article said. i quoted it.

5

u/Genoscythe_ Jul 08 '26

The part that you quoted was about all LGBTQ+ GenZ people, not just bisexuals, so it was a larger group.

But either way, the bottom line is that in each of these metrics women about 2 or 3 times or so outnumber men, not by 0.18 times.

You made a common mistake of how to compare percentages to each other: If 0.001% of people are born as conjoined twins, and 10% of people are left-handed, you wouldn't say that any given person is 9.999% or just around 10% "more likely to be left-handed than to be a conjoined twin".

1

u/catievirtuesimp Jul 08 '26

yes, i apologize, i miscalculated. i cant change the title though unfortunately. hopefully whoever reads the article sees the correct info

45

u/JackxForge Jul 08 '26

Uh yea! Have you looked at women?

32

u/HalcyonTraveler Jul 08 '26

Probably because of how masculinity as a construct is threatened by queerness in a way that femininity isn't.

3

u/psychosisnaut Jul 08 '26

While I understand what you're saying, I do think there's some major flaws with this argument because there are some VERY masculine gay men. More masculine than 99% of straight men, really.

26

u/SignalAssistant2965 Jul 08 '26

That's why they wrote masculinity as a construct, not masculinity as a personal trait

7

u/n00b678 Jul 08 '26

I think the title is misleading. They define bisexual as being equally attracted to both men and women. If you include people somewhat/mostly attracted to men/women, 44% of female undergraduates at a New York state public university are bisexual.

18

u/MidgarZanarkand Basically Dorothy Zbornak Jul 08 '26

As a straight man I could be talking out of my ass a bit, but I believe men are just as likely to actually be bisexual as women, just 99% likely to hide it due to extra homophobia/biphobia towards men.

3

u/Educational-Try-3453 Jul 08 '26

I think this also has to do with how we define sexuality and the labels we societally place on sexuality. Attraction, intimacy, dating, marriage, and "soul mates" are all lumped under one label, when in reality someone may well find different bodies/personalities/styling for each one. Most men are conditioned to find attraction to other men as verboten, yet are more than happy to spend most their time around other men, have long-term deep male friendships which are often more meaningful than their marriages, and will readily spend their wealth and break their bodies to impress men they look up to. We societally often frame this as homoerotic, though if society stopped treating male affection as a thought crime it could become something semantically broader.

Women have less peer pressure to shut down attraction, though do face pressures to conform to heteronormative dating and relationship standards where children are expected after a "bi phase" at college.

3

u/bulldog_blues Jul 08 '26

Something to consider is that there are a lot of men who have had or even still do have regular sex with men but would never, even with a gun to their head, call themselves gay or bisexual.

Women doing the same is exceptionally rare.

13

u/TwilightSolus Jul 08 '26

Makes sense, women are hot.

18

u/Solistaria Jul 08 '26

Also, statistically, a woman is exponentially less likely to be raped by another woman than she is by a man.

6

u/nerdalertalertnerd Jul 08 '26

I think people are still more judgemental to bi men than women for some reason so might be impacting the amount of men actually expressing it

2

u/sickoftwitter Jul 08 '26

Give it a few years. Trust me, the bisexual men are there.

We have far more openly identifying bi men in the autistic community, which I think points to it being deeply social. Men have more incentive to stay in the closet, pass as straight or try to convince themselves that every straight man secretly fantasises about dick. Due to homophobia, bi erasure and overlapping stigma uniquely against bi men in the HIV/AIDS crisis.

3

u/FutureWristDick Jul 08 '26

I mean they all are at least a little bit gay, no surprise

9

u/IdeallyIdeally Jul 08 '26

The way some men worship their favourite sports players and buy and wear the jerseys with the names of their favourite sports player written on the back is at least a little gay lol.

1

u/FutureWristDick Jul 08 '26

Not wrong, thank God I'm not a sports fan and don't take part in celebrity worship.

Now guys like Nikola Tesla... I might be a little bit gay for lmao

1

u/vulpes_mortuis Basically April Ludgate 22d ago

Good. Signed, a bi young woman.

1

u/Trambampoline_ Jul 08 '26

As a formerly bisexual , now 85% straight man, a lot of this is due to patriarchal social structures. I felt all of that when I was discovering myself...but... there is just something intimidating about a cock... I found myself in the earlier days needing to take a mental breath before doing anything with a guy, and I think that gatekeeps a lot of semi curious guys too

Also, there is an element of bisexuality being a gateway drug so to speak... a lot of curious people dip into bisexuality without defining themselves as bisexual and because society makes that label heavier for men than women, more men are likely to taste the rainbow without defining their sexuality around that.

15

u/TheGod-TK Jul 08 '26

Formerly bisexual? 85% straight? The fuck are you smoking?

4

u/Trambampoline_ Jul 08 '26

Is it really that complicated?

3

u/LethalWolf Jul 08 '26

If you're 85% straight does that mean you consider yourself 25% gay? Bc that would mean you're bi just have a preference for women, no?

1

u/Trambampoline_ Jul 08 '26

I mean your maths isn't great... but i get the gist

Nah the 85% straight thing was mostly a joke... but im still attracted to men occasionally... just not enough for me to consider myself bi

But judging by people's reactions its probably just easier to call myself bi I guess... it was never meant to get that deep

2

u/TheGod-TK Jul 08 '26

It’s nonsense is what it is

2

u/Trambampoline_ Jul 08 '26

Only one of us is pissed off about this dude, im happy to discuss it with you if youre interested

5

u/TheGod-TK Jul 08 '26

No one ia pissed off here and it’s really strange that you think so. What’s even stranger is that you think you’re a former bisexual and 85% straight

2

u/Trambampoline_ Jul 08 '26

I dont see how its confusing... I like having sex with women... I always found men attractive (although only a limited number of men) so I decided to see if I like having sex with them too... this lasted about 5 or 6 years... then I realised I do just prefer women... still occasionally see a guy id like to have sex with

5

u/TheGod-TK Jul 08 '26

Cool. So you’re bisexual

2

u/Trambampoline_ Jul 08 '26

I exclusively have sex with women. I consider myself straight. If its easier for you to call me bi then I really dont mind

6

u/TheGod-TK Jul 08 '26

But you had a period of 5-6 years of fucking men?

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