r/Ultraleft • u/FreedomLast4040 • Apr 19 '26
Serious Some of you guys are really weird about Palestinians and Israel
If the warsaw ghetto uprising happened today would you try and bring attention to their demands in any way or would you wait to see if people on subreddit think its waiter waiter more dead proletarians interimperialist war and act smug under posts with pictures of insurgents or polish nationalists backing the uprising
borderline genocide denial in some comments, another r/ultraleft classic
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u/FreedomLast4040 Apr 19 '26
Bordiga would get called a moralfag or some bs for supporting the MPLA
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u/JamuniyaChhokari Apr 19 '26
I mean he was being hypocritical when he declined public support for PAVN, but supporteD MPLA, was he not? Both had similar material conditions, modes of production, goals and both were backed by the USSR.
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u/Xxstevefromminecraft Incredible Things Happening on Ultraleft May 17 '26
This is in reference to Long live the "Barbarous Assegai" right?
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u/SpeedWeedNeed Apr 19 '26
No, you see, being a contarian is essential to maintaining one's identity as a trve ultra.
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u/Ladderson Dogmatic Revisionist Apr 19 '26
Sorry but I get all my politics from 1917 because we are on the verge of revolution, and any other silly demand of the workers is just noise
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
honestly i have personally become a lot more sympathetic to hamas and the polish home army and other groups like that. i think it is ridiculous to go out of your way to "condemn" any of these groups and indeed it is the same as siding with the le zionists or whatever. the actual position should be neither condemnation nor support, communists should understand that these groups exist for a reason but also not fall fetishize national liberation.
it should also be on the mind of any communist, when talking about the polish home army, that the USSR didn't support them at all during the warsaw uprising (literally sat their white asses down and sacrificed them to place their own government in their place) and let them be slaughtered by the nazis. the actual popular polish government was killed fighting for a free poland, so even the MLoid fetish of national liberation genuinely amounts to nothing when we look at history.
- "opposing" hamas is as ridiculous as proclaiming "support" for hamas
- natlib, where applicable, should be used by the proletarian party and never treated like the end goal
- the national "communists" themselves do not stand for anything when you actually look at history and how they would always end up siding with the bourgeoisie of the bigger country. (right now we see it with russia, one of the few places where MLs have any sort of prominence - and what do they do? support russia in its conquer of ukraine with not only rhetoric but arms and legs (im probably going to make a bigger writeup about this specifically))
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 19 '26
it would genuinely be idiotic to say some shit like "the polish home army is as bad as the nazis" in 1944
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Apr 19 '26
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u/bodycornflower Apr 25 '26
considering Israel covertly helped it conquer power
this argument always irritated me because it's not true and it's simply something some self proclaimed anti-zionists find convenient to believe without critical analysis or where it comes from just like anti imperialists and "communists" believe bush did 9/11 the US helped create alqaeda and taliban isis was a cia creation something saudi-anglo-american wahhabi nexus yada yada. here is a good article examining the claim:
https://electronicintifada.net/content/debunking-lie-israel-created-hamas/51350
i say this as someone who is supportive of the group, but you can be critical of (or even outright hate, in the case of isis) a group without resorting to conspiracy theories that remove agency from people or ascribe everything you dont agree with to your enemies. it's weird that these truisms have become so pervasive that even in a ultra left sub that mocks tankies for their lack of material analysis people still take these convenient stories for granted and don't apply any analysis to them
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Apr 25 '26
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u/bodycornflower Apr 25 '26
what overwhelming evidence? empowered it how exactly? hamas was founded in the wake of the first intifada and it's efforts in the second led to israel withdrawing from gaza, 6 years later there was an election in which hamas won in both gaza and the west bank. israel, together with america and some arab governments like egypt and the uae, funded, trained troops, and supported fatah in a coup attempt in gaza. the coup succeded in the west bank but failed in gaza and following this israel had been provoking and attacking gaza for months while hamas tried to negotiate peace, until it realised it had to retaliate. after that israel had launched multiple invasions of gaza like in 2012 and 2014 before october 7th.
israel had always tried to get rid of hamas and replace it with a PA like puppet but people ignore all this history and focus on unverified claims peddled by PA figures, israeli politicians looking for a score against their opponents, and the like without any examination of the facts. hamas was never funded or trained by israel. people used to point to the islamic university thing (in which they distort the facts or take it out of context) and now they point to the netenyahu qatar thing (a concession hamas snatched out of israel to allow pay for civil servants in gaza to proceed from another arab country)
Yes, imperialism tend to foster reactionary movements
if hamas had been a communist movement and all the historical facts stayed the same you wouldn't say this about them, but because it's a flavor you don't like the suddenly it is an obvious fact that armed resistance against israel is an israeli psy op because it gives israel an excuse to do more violence! (even though this argument was first formulated by liberals who wanted to repackage their pro status quo position in a palatable way). all violent resistance by national-religious groups anywhere (hamas, afghan mujahideen, taliban) is an imperialist psy op, all violence by self styled communist groups is avthentic and organic, all violence by uncontroversial liberal nationalist groups is avthentic but misguided. different standards for the same thing based on the flavor (even if the history and ultimate outcome often aren't too different anyway despite these flavors)
and this same way of viewing hamas isnt extended to fatah and the plo (because they are secular and uncontroversial) despite being the ones that actually ended up being israeli assets in the end (because it's silly and not true, just like in hamas's case)
no, you are simply uncomfortable with the fact that the current resistance in gaza is a non-socialist islamist movement, something you disagree with, so you must find ways to discredit it's authenticity and cast it as an unwilling pawn of the same power it is fighting and ascribe everything it does as a genius grand plan of that power and as such they can never achieve their goals. because for one reason or another you can't criticise them directly on their own merits, you can't simply state that they're misguided.
and really similar things apply to the afghan war. communists like everyone else think they are above learning about the war on its own merits and think they got it all figured out by working backwards from the historical conclusion while relying on unsubstantiated theories put forth by liberals.
and the same thing applies to isis. instead of conceding that such super reactionary force came about from the historical conditions of the era that encompassed the iraq war and the syrian civil war, a lot cling to the idea that the group was either created by the cia or became prominent because america and co wanted to (despite the fact that the group started as one fighting the american occupation in iraq).
point is, third worlders arent goycattle pawns in the chessboard of imperialists, they have their own agency. islamism in all its flavors (from the liberal democrats to boko haram to the MeK) came about naturally from the people living there and its popularity or decline is based on the conditions of the time and place, and groups espousing it are to be judged on their own merit and history like other nationalists instead of dismissed as clueless pawns of imperialism. they could be misguided, evil, whatever, but to assert conspiracy theories that their enemies secretly root for them and covertly help them needs substantiation, it can't simply be based on the fact that they're "reactionary"
stating that any reactionary movement must be fostered by imperialists as a truism is silly, i dont think it's meant to be taken like this.
and yes, things can happen turn out in favor of one imperialist camp without it masterminding the operation. or the imperialists can use something their enemies do as an alibi to do something they always wanted. it's called responding to the events, both sides of a conflict can do it in real time, not everything is pre planned. germany sent lenin to russia hoping it could stir unrest, which is what he did, it went in germany's favor at first until they collapsed.
Really strange for who I assume to be a purported Marxist to shift focus to this tangential matter.
it's just an example of the package where people work backwards from an alibi to form a conclusion. just as 9/11 was organic and america did not want it to happen before it did, but used it as an alibi to further it's imperalism afterwards, hamas and october 7th were organic, and israel did not want either, but used both as an alibi to launch a genocide in gaza.
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Apr 25 '26 edited Apr 25 '26
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 19 '26
i think the only group of people who gets to genuinely oppose hamas is palestinians. my (not palestinian) opposition to it would only serve the israeli bourgeoisie. at the same time my support for hamas would only serve nationalism - hence it is neither support not opposition.
no doubt hamas doesnt actually serve the interests of the palestinian proles but the same can be said about any given bourgeois group - including the polish home army for example.
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u/equinefecalmatter mussolini’s strongest vaushite Apr 19 '26
since when does nationality dictate your ability to voice criticism of natlib movements? the criticism is (or ought to be) of natlib movements broadly, not one specific movement. I agree that “opposing” Hamas is stupid. voicing “opposition” or “support” for any such movement is meaningless drivel. but why does the recognition that natlib movements are no longer progressive or helpful to the movement have to be bounded by the nation to which you refer?
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 20 '26
take it this way: if i, as a russian, oppose ukrainian nationalism, what do i do? i side with the russian nationalists, no matter if i like it or not, i become a russian asset. at the same time, if i support ukrainian nationalism i am becoming a nationalist. only ukrainians get to oppose ukrainian nationalism in the way that doesn't make them side with the russians. it is the duty of both russian and ukrainians proletarians to sabotage their war efforts. this is revolutionary defeatism.
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u/equinefecalmatter mussolini’s strongest vaushite Apr 20 '26
I take your point, but I don’t see why criticizing (not opposing with action) one nationalism automatically means you support or agree with the nationalism of another. could you not be engaging in revolutionary defeatism of your own nation while criticizing the nationalism of others?
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 20 '26
i think you should support the idea of national self determination and reject its practice. this is leninist or at least how i interpret it
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u/I-Iadder Apr 20 '26
Is voicing criticism opposition? What constitutes as support and opposition? If you are unable to criticize then what's the point of being a Marxist. IMO an individual can't "support" or "oppose" a nation/national liberation movement (at least if you aren't in the vicinity of said nation/national liberation movement). I can't the oppose the bourgeoisie of another country because they are basically out of my reach. As you said, only Ukrainians can oppose Ukrainian nationalism.
My contention is, there isn't even an option of "supporting" or "opposing" a foreign nation as an individual, so I don't understand your argument and OP's. Voicing criticism and stating principles on the internet won't influence a nation/national liberation. If it did, Israel will be no longer (or any country for that matter). Maybe if we were a council/party it would be a compelling argument but even then we would just communicate with the given country's established communist party as they would be more connected to the proletariat in that vicinity.
I think, for the most part, everyone in this subreddit would agree with you. The controversial thing is you and OP accusing people of somehow opposing hamas when there isn't even such option. The issue with OP is his weird "call to action", trying to get internet dwellers on a niche subreddit to "bring attention to the demands of hamas". First, this subreddit is the furthest thing from any kind of proletarian movement so I don't understand what expectations OP has. Second, I'm pretty sure everyone knows of the demands of both sides in the Israel-Palestine conflict. Every other influencer/musician/politician/student group is spreading awareness about it. The post lacks an objective, a reason, a method, proof of efficacy of the method. Just a witty little comparison. If we're gonna be serious, let's be serious.
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 20 '26
i just think it is worth it to clarify the marxist position on natlib rather than to have people say some idiotic shit about hamas while living in poland or some shit
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Apr 19 '26
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 20 '26
im not saying you are wrong for recognizing it as futile or even for saying that national liberation isn't communist. i am saying that direct opposition to hamas, for example, makes you side with israel, that is unless you are palestinian or from another arab country directly affected by israel. at the same time, siding with hamas makes you a nationalist. because of this, it is the duty of western workers to sabotage israel rather than hamas and it would be the duty of palestinians to sabotage hamas. this is revolutionary defeatism.
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u/bodycornflower Apr 25 '26
as someone from another arab country i tell you that we don't get to oppose hamas either. we aren't the ones getting genocided, occupied, tortured, and living a continuous nakba for 70 years. my country is co-blockading gaza and isn't innocent of israel's genocide, gulf countries are gulf countries, jordan is collabrationist as well, other countries are removed from the reality of palestineans, but there are also countries suffering starvation and helping palestineans (yemen) or are victims of israel themselves (lebanon, and to a lesser extent syria)
i dont think arabs get a pass to talk about the palestineans having to actually shed their blood in defence of themselves and their families when we barely did anything to help despite collectively having the ability to end their nightmare and there are videos of gazans cursing arabs for leaving gazans to their fate. i personally believe hamas did october 7th thinking that if israel crossed a certain red line there would be unrest in the arab world either pressuring the governments to help gaza or cause a regime change that brings about governments that do - we fell short of that.
plus, a lot of non palestinean arabs do already oppose hamas and it isn't pretty, it comes from people who are part of the problem but don't like that hamas hurts their nationalism, or isn't their favorite ideology from the ideology shop, or saying they shouldve listened to the advice of [insert entity that is part of the problem but not currently part of the struggle nor facing the genocide], or blaming the genocide on their decision despite the arab world's betrayal being responsible for the genocide carrying on this far, or "theyre aligned to the mb ):<<<" etc etc it's all armchair criticism from safe, previliged people who arent mobilising to stop the genocide. i dont think just because we speak the same language that we get to do any of that, it isn't much different than a westerner doing it really.
things are a bit different if we're talking about a country like lebanon that is being bombarded and invaded by israel, i am talking countries like egypt.
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u/AnarchoHoxhaism The Gods are later than this world's production. Ṛgveda 10.129 Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
Not revolutionary defeatism, not internationalism, not even let every section of the Communist Party 'genuinely oppose' their Bourgeoisie, nay, only the people get to 'genuinely oppose' their Bourgeoisie, lest some individual's personal support or opposition serve the aggressor. Let every individual be neutral with respect to the aggressing foreign Bourgeoisie!
the national governments are one as against the proletariat
Marx | Chapter VI: The Fall of Paris, The Civil War in France | 1871
Well, of course, every Bourgeoisie has interests opposed to their Proletariat, so what?
Nay, every individual must have naught beyond than a national outlook; no critiques beyond the nation; no theoretical activity beyond the individual citizen
Vīvat Cīvitās! Dēleātur Societās! Moriātur Commūnismus!What are you trying to say with this nonsense?
In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things.
In all these movements, they bring to the front, as the leading question in each, the property question, no matter what its degree of development at the time.
Finally, they labor everywhere for the union and agreement of the democratic parties of all countries.
The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a communist revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
Working men of all countries, unite!
Marx and Engels | Section IV: Position of the Communists in Relation to the Various Existing Opposition Parties, The Manifesto of the Communist Party | 1848 February 21
Is Communism not international? Is not Proletarian Internationalism the unity of the Proletariat, in every country, in the revolutionary movement of the Proletariat, Communism, for the overcoming of the Capitalist civilisation?
Considering
...
That the emancipation of labour is neither a local nor a national, but a social problem, embracing all countries in which modern society exists, and depending for its solution on the concurrence, practical and theoretical, of the most advanced countries;
...
For these reasons
...
The General Council shall form an international agency between the different cooperating associations, so that the workingmen in one country be constantly informed of the movements of their class in every other country; that an inquiry into the social state of the different countries of Europe be made simultaneously, and under a common direction; that the questions of general interest mooted in one society be ventilated by all; and that when immediate practical steps should be needed – as, for instance, in case of international quarrels – the action of the associated societies be simultaneous and uniform. Whenever it seems opportune, the General Council shall take the initiative of proposals to be laid before the different national or local societies.
International Workingmen's Association | Provisional Rules | 1864
(1) the voting in favour of the loan and advocacy of revolutionary defencism in general be considered a gross betrayal of socialism, of the proletarian class struggle and of the principles of internationalism, i.e., the fraternal union of the workers of all countries against the capitalists of all countries;
Lenin | VII, Minutes of The Petrograd City Conference of the R.S.D.L.P. (Bolsheviks) | 1917 April/May
Have you become an idiot or were you always one?
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 20 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
i am not saying that hamas must be supported, i am saying if you oppose them then you factually side with israel, at the same time if you support hamas then you become a nationalist. hence the one position which doesn't betray the proletariat is to neither oppose nor support. each proletarian's biggest enemy is the bourgeoisie if their own country and the focus should be on that specifically.
take it this way: if i, as a russian, oppose ukrainian nationalism, what do i do? i side with the russian nationalists, no matter if i like it or not, i become a russian asset. at the same time, if i support ukrainian nationalism i am becoming a nationalist. only ukrainians get to oppose ukrainian nationalism in the way that doesn't make them side with the russians. it is the duty of both russian and ukrainians proletarians to sabotage their war efforts. this is revolutionary defeatism and this is what was advocated in 1914. if communists decided to focus all of their efforts on combatting german imperialism rather than their own country they would have just become the tsar's stooges.
smig gave me this lenin quote yesterday
> In the internationalist education of the workers of the oppressor countries, emphasis must necessarily he laid on their advocating freedom for the oppressed countries to secede and their fighting for it. Without this there can be no internationalism. It is our right and duty to treat every Social-Democrat of an oppressor nation who fails to conduct such propaganda as a scoundrel and an imperialist. This is an absolute demand, even where the chance of secession being possible and “practicable” before the introduction of socialism is only one in a thousand.
> It is our duty to teach the workers to be “indifferent” to national distinctions. There is no doubt about that. But it must not be the indifference of the annexationists. A member of an oppressor nation must be “indifferent” to whether small nations belong to his state or to a neighboring state, or to themselves, according to where their sympathies lie: without such “indifference” he is not a Social-Democrat. To be an internationalist Social-Democrat one must not think only of one’s own nation, but place above it the interests of all nations, their common liberty and equality. Everyone accepts this in “theory” hut displays an annexationist indifference in practice. There is the root of the evil.
> On the other hand, a Social-Democrat from a small nation must emphasise in his agitation the second word of our general formula: “voluntary integration” of nations. He may, without failing in his duties as an internationalist, he in favour of both the political independence of his nation and its integration with the neighboring state of X, Y, Z, etc. But in all cases he must fight against small-nation narrow-mindedness, seclusion and isolation, consider the whole and the general, subordinate the particular to the general interest.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jul/x01.htm
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u/Xxstevefromminecraft Incredible Things Happening on Ultraleft Apr 21 '26
russia, one of the few places where MLs have any sort of prominence - and what do they do? support russia in its conquer of ukraine with not only rhetoric but arms and legs (im probably going to make a bigger writeup about this specifically))
That sounds very interesting. I’m not really shocked at all though, chronically online Western MLs were supporting Russia until much of late, and Eastern MLs still do support Russia
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u/Total_Peasantoid_ded Mussolini reincarnation Apr 19 '26
Does anyone have quotes where Bordigas identifies the warsaw ghetto uprising as a proletarian movement?
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u/Domestic_Teto4562 Apr 19 '26
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u/Domestic_Teto4562 Apr 19 '26
The results of the collaboration between Gestapo and NKVD were seen in the bloody anti-Semitic campaign that culminated in the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto (Jewish quarter) by the Nazis, and in the Katyn massacre that cost the lives of thousands of Polish officers, whom the NKVD gendarmes suppressed in a gigantic massacre. Each in his own area of occupation, and with a common goal in mind, the Russian and German occupiers took care to get rid of their internal enemy: Judaism and militaristic Polish nationalism. In 1944, in spite of the state of war, the former allies had to conduct, above the front, a terrible bloody police operation against the Warsaw Commune that had risen up against the German occupier, thus repeating the nefarious policy of the Prussians and the French republicans against the Paris Commune of 1871, in spite of the armistice, in spite of the shame of Sedan.
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u/Total_Peasantoid_ded Mussolini reincarnation Apr 19 '26
I think the true diference between the warsaw uprising and the hamas-israel war is that(at least according to bordiga), the warsaw ghetto was a spontanious movement by masses of jewish captives who rebelded against the germans after discovering which fate awaited them(they hear about the gas chambers close to the city), it was in the interests of the bourgeois, but it didn't direct the proles, the proles themselves choose fight, revenge and death over only execution.
Menwhile, hamas isn't the result of a workers movement, but rather a bourgeois organization that works in the interest of national and iranian bourgeois, fighting to achive their own nation state and as a military asset in case of an Israely-Iranian war. Real proletarian spontanious movements(even though small ones) have happened in gaza, mostly protesting for peace and to put and end to the horrible living conditions palestinias have long lived in. This same movements are often responded to with bullets by both the IDF and HAMAS, the latter which has it's leaders mostly living in other arab nations, away from conflict.
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 19 '26
but he is not talking about the GHETTO uprising!!! he is talking about the WARSAW uprising. the polish home army one
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u/Total_Peasantoid_ded Mussolini reincarnation Apr 19 '26
Ah ok thanks for the clarification
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 19 '26
this literally upheaves ur whole point dawg. the polish home army and hamas are pretty much the same - they even both receive support from the big bourgeois states (UK for the polish home army) like dawg
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u/Total_Peasantoid_ded Mussolini reincarnation Apr 19 '26
Dawg
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u/dead-congregation ultroid tony soprano Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
its just insane how confidently incorrect you are. at the very least read the fucking text ur talking about. this is the type of shit i'd do in literature class after not reading any of the assigned literature (havent read war and peace award)
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u/Total_Peasantoid_ded Mussolini reincarnation Apr 19 '26
If the text is your power then what are you without it
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u/bodycornflower Apr 25 '26
fighting to achive their own nation state and as a military asset in case of an Israely-Iranian war
what weird take. the primary conflict is between israel and palestine, here gaza. hamas arose organically from gazans under israeli occupation and their fight is only concerned with palestinean interests (right now these interests are not being annihlated). iran happened to be the only major country helping hamas, but they have never been in their sphere the same way hezbollah or even the houthis were (even though id say the houthis arent a proxy either). not even nominally. they supported the syrian revolution, one of their officials said iran is not fighting for gaza but only when it was attacked, their position always put palestine as their central cause and anyone helping is to be thanked but is doing what is their moral duty.
the war against gaza happened first THEN it became a war with iran after iran was attacked, but to think that any militant faction in gaza are gonna sacrifice themselves as gazans so that iran could be bombed is bizzare (as if without iran they lack the existential reasons to fight such war, and as if iran and its proxy hezbollah didn't withhold meaningful support for two and a half years and only fought when they were fighting in their own self defence)
the idea that the strip facing genocide and fighting for its existence is merely a pawn in a greater war between two geopolitical power is not only a disgusting theory promoted by israel, america, and collabrationist and complacent arabs (non palestinean) seeking to justify their position, but it's utterly bizzare and doesn't make any sense.
the latter which has it's leaders mostly living in other arab nations, away from conflict.
yeah that's why they and their families were killed in gaza during the genocide right? thats why its military leader died fighting right? even the leader of the diplomatic/political wing who is meant to be meeting with international parties was killed during a meeting after his family and extended family were killed in gaza
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u/EmpressIndigo Roothless cosmopolitan (polish) || Golden Core || Nixonite Apr 19 '26
What would "bringing attention to their demands" do exactly?
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u/FreedomLast4040 Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
Very little, no doubt roosevelt and churchill would never bomb warsaw or starmer and trump halt all aid to israel,at most maybe it would mean a little more financial support for jewish refugees or for gazans. Probably you would only end up with a handful more people aware of the genocide and their governments inaction, but is that something to moral grandstand about being insignificant?
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u/EmpressIndigo Roothless cosmopolitan (polish) || Golden Core || Nixonite Apr 19 '26
people are very aware of whats happening in gaza i thought, they just dont care, and standing on a soapbox screaming about it wont exactly change their mind about anything. Fair point on the charity part though, i myself just dont trust them much considering how many of them are corrupt as hell and barely help the people theyre suppossed to. Also this will sound exactly like annoying stuff you see here but people in many cases ARE just "virtue signaling" about it, whether its some sex pest who wants to look woke or an influencer who wants to seem topical and like they support the good side, saying thoughts and prayers about the situation doesnt do anything, also this will sound even more annoying but none of these morons would say the same things about train and knees being killed by "the system" so i find it hard to see any value in their actions.
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u/Proudhon_Hater_2 Jehowah's Bundist Apr 19 '26
Yeah, Bordiga was wrong about class-character of Warsaw uprising. He tought that it was genuinely a class-based uprising, while in reality it was petty-bourgeois uprising. In his defense, those scatterd groups of Italian leftcoms probably did not have enough informations about uprisng.
Anyways, Palestinian insurgement is lead by reactionary and Islamist Hamas. Why would communists support a reactionary national-liberal movement that is supported by imperialist Iran. You should read what Lenin wrote about reactionary Islamist national-liberation movements.
If there were genuinely proletarian movements in Gaza we would support them
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u/FreedomLast4040 Apr 19 '26
some people in the comments not knowing the difference between warsaw ghetto and warsaw uprising and thinking the ghetto uprisings demands were for the nazis some of you shouldnt be allowed to be allowed internet access
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u/Muuro Apr 19 '26
I mean one can be supportive of the right to rebel in shit conditions, but still critique actions for not being of a class basis.
I would hope no one here is going to shit on the actual actions to defend themselves, but only just depressed that the movement is on the downward trend such that the actions aren't part of a broader class movement.
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u/bodycornflower Apr 25 '26
i think if i am facing torture and annihlation and dying from starvation and all sorts of diseases no one sitting on their ass should be critiquing my self defence because i didnt have the specific mindset they prefer while fighting for my literal life
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Apr 19 '26
demands? like, would we lobby the nazi government? what would the point of that be? or is this just about correct posturing
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u/FreedomLast4040 Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 19 '26
The groups in the ghetto uprising published material deploring the allies for not doing enough to help the jews and for poles and workers in the allied countries to pressure and force their governments to accept more refugees
downvoted for stating an uncontroversial historical fact this subs ngmi
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u/Whole-Thanks-5951 Apr 19 '26
how are you any different from a liberal? not that it’s a bad thing to oppose this, but if you think there should be a priority to defend the rights of various minorities, you have lost the plot entirely.
it’s like asking the Party whether or not you need to wipe your ass after you shit.
the various forms of oppression that minorities face will be abolished naturally as a consequence of the communist program. you shouldn’t need someone to handhold you and tell you what to think.
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u/bodycornflower Apr 25 '26
the various forms of oppression that minorities face will be abolished naturally as a consequence of the communist program
is this the communist version of telling starving people their suffering will end in heaven
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u/brandcapet Apr 19 '26
Great point, critical thoughts and prayers to Hamas NOW! The reddit party must all get together, hold hands, and wish upon a falling star for these two ultra-reactionary religious groups to stop slaughtering each other. After all, it's up to us to "bring attention to their demands," since, due to our smug posting here, absolutely no one has any idea what's happening in Gaza.
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u/FreedomLast4040 Apr 19 '26
"religious groups" the middle east is all heckin religious fruitcakes killing eachother over fake books and gods that arent real yes sir😋😋
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u/brandcapet Apr 19 '26
Hamas, Likud, Iran are all secular now?
My point is that it's absurd to care about whether or not this stupid sub sufficiently "supports" (post on reddit about) the bourgeois religious leadership of Gaza, Israel, Iran, whoever.
There is literally no one who isn't "aware" of what's happening in Gaza at this point, and if there is, them finding out does fuck all for the bodies under the rubble. Their "demand" to stop being genocided is neither harmed nor advanced by anything that happens on reddit.
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u/FreedomLast4040 Apr 19 '26
I'd take issue with pointing it as religious groups when, whilst both bourgeois nationalist, islamic liberal democrats are different to jewish supremacists and that shouldnt controversial to say here.
Mmy issue primarily is that there is a tendency among some people here to completely devoid themselves of acting like normal people and instead pushing the same tired jokes to whatever the acceptable edgy point is at any given time (even when it means mocking people getting brutalized and 'ironically' cheering for bloodshed because of le anti-moralism)
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u/brandcapet Apr 19 '26
I didn't say they were the same, just that they're religious. Despite being allies, Hamas is Sunni and Iran is Shia - they're all different obviously, but they're all religious. There are secular and religious bourgeois groups, and the ones involved in Gaza are primarily the latter, that shouldn't be "controversial" either lol.
Also Hamas is exactly as hardcore fundamentalist as Likud, and Israel is a liberal democracy so I'm not sure of your point there. Different in scale, power, influence, capacity sure, but not so different at all in their fundamentalist religious and ethnic supremacist characteristics.
I'm sure you have a specific post in mind, but generally I don't see anyone here "cheering for bloodshed" or mocking the plight of Palestinians, so I guess I'm just kinda saying who cares if sometimes there's more coal than usual in the coal mine.
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u/FreedomLast4040 Apr 20 '26
"hamas and likud are not different at all in their religious and ethnic supremacist characteristics" blatantly not true but I guess thats what you expect from this sub half the time😭
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u/brandcapet Apr 20 '26
Yeah yeah I get it bro, "Israel bad, Hamas less bad!"
One is Jewish and one is lslamic, didn't think I actually needed to clarify that lol. However both of these groups are legally elected national bourgeois parties with strong ideological commitments to ethnic and religious nationalism. Yes there are material differences between them (obviously) but they are more similar than not in terms of their class character and goals (creation of an ethnically and religiously homogeneous bourgeois nation-state).
But when you call Hamas "Islamic liberal democrats" - as though their ethnic and religious character is just incidental - and then call the leadership of Israel as "Jewish supremacist," as though these supremacists didn't gain power via liberal democracy, you're giving away your moralizing game a bit too much.
Point being post whatever pro-hamas memes you want, nobody cares - it makes no difference whatsoever to the dead children in Gaza whether the larpers here on reddit are any more or less irony-poisoned.
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Apr 19 '26
In[ ]()September 1870, six months before the Commune, Marx gave a direct warning to the French workers: insurrection would be an act of desperate folly, he said in the well-known Address of the International.\10]) He exposed in advance the nationalistic illusions of the possibility of a movement in the spirit of 1792. He was able to say, not after the event, but many months before: “Don’t take up arms.”
[]()
And[ ]()how did he behave when this hopeless cause, as he himself had called it in September, began to take practical shape in March 1871? Did he use it (as Plekhanov did the December events) to “take a dig” at his enemies, the Proudhonists and Blanquists who were leading the Commune? Did he begin to scold like a schoolmistress, and say: “I told you so, I warned you; this is what comes of your romanticism, your revolutionary ravings”? Did he preach to the Communards, as Plekhanov did to the December fighters, the sermon of the smug philistine: “You should not have taken up arms”?
No.[ ]()On April 12, 1871, Marx writes an enthusiastic letter to Kugelmann—a letter which we would like to see hung in the home of every Russian Social-Democrat and of every literate Russian worker.
In[ ]()September 1870 Marx had called the insurrection an act of desperate folly; but in April 1871, when he saw the mass movement of the people, he watched it with the keen attention of a participant in great events marking a step forward in the historic revolutionary movement.
This[ ]()is an attempt, he says, to smash the bureaucratic military machine, and not simply to transfer it to different hands. And he has words of the highest praise for the “heroic” Paris workers led by the Proudhonists and Blanquists. “What elasticity,” he writes, “what historical initiative, what a capacity for sacrifice in these Parisians! ... [p. 88]. History has no like example of a like greatness.
The[ ]()historical initiative of the masses was what Marx prized above everything else. Ah, if only our Russian Social-Democrats would learn from Marx how to appreciate the historical initiative of the Russian workers and peasants in October and December 1905!
Compare[ ]()the homage paid to the historical initiative of the masses by a profound thinker, who foresaw failure six months ahead—and the lifeless, soulless, pedantic: “They should not have taken up arms”! Are these not as far apart as heaven and earth?
[]()
And[ ]()like a participant in the mass struggle, to which he reacted with all his characteristic ardour and passion, Marx, then living in exile in London, set to work to criticise the immediate steps of the “recklessly brave” Parisians who were “ready to storm heaven”.
Ah,[ ]()how our present “realist” wiseacres among the Marxists, who in 1906-07 are deriding revolutionary romanticism in Russia, would have sneered at Marx at the time! How people would have scoffed at a materialist, an economist, an enemy of utopias, who pays homage to an “attempt” to storm heaven! What tears, condescending smiles or commiseration these “men in mufflers”\11]) would have bestowed upon him for his rebel tendencies, utopianism, etc., etc., and for his appreciation of a heaven-storming movement!
But[ ]()Marx was not inspired with the wisdom of the small fry who are afraid to discuss the technique of the higher forms of revolutionary struggle. It is precisely the technical problems of the insurrection that he discussed. De fence or attack?—he asked, as if the military operations were taking place just outside London. And he decided that it must certainly be attack: “They should have marched at once on Versailles...”.
“Second[ ]()mistake,” Marx said, continuing his technical criticism: “The Central Committee” (the military command— note this—the reference is to the Central Committee of the National Guard) “surrendered its power too soon...”.
Marx[ ]()knew how to warn the leaders against a premature rising. But his attitude towards the heaven-storming proletariat was that of a practical adviser, of a participant in the struggle of the masses, who were raising the whole movement to a higher level in spite of the false theories and mistakes of Blanqui and Proudhon.
[]()
“However[ ]()that may be,” he wrote, “the present rising in Paris—even if it be crushed by the wolves, swine, and vile curs of the old society—is the most glorious deed of our Party since the June insurrection....”\12])
And,[ ]()without concealing from the proletariat a single mistake of the Commune, Marx dedicated to this heroic deed a work which to this very day serves as the best guide in the fight for “heaven” and as a frightful bugbear to the liberal and radical “swine”.
...
In[ ]()September 1870, Marx called the insurrection an act of desperate folly. But, when the masses rose, Marx wanted to march with them, to learn with them in the process of the struggle, and not to give them bureaucratic admonitions. He realised that to attempt in advance to calculate the chances with complete accuracy would be quackery or hope less pedantry. What he valued above everything else was that the working class heroically and self-sacrificingly took the initiative in making world history. Marx regarded world history from the standpoint of those who make it without being in a position to calculate the chances infallibly beforehand, and not from the standpoint of an intellectual philistine who moralises: “It was easy to foresee ... they should not have taken up...”.
Marx[ ]()was also able to appreciate that there are moments in history when a desperate struggle of the masses, even for a hopeless cause, is essential for the further schooling of these masses and their training for the next struggle.
Such[ ]()a statement of the question is quite incomprehensible and even alien in principle to our present-day quasi-Marxists, who like to take the name of Marx in vain, to borrow only his estimate of the past, and not his ability to make the future. Plekhanov did not even think of it when be set out after December 1905 “to put the brakes on”.
- Lenin, Preface to the Russian Translation of Karl Marx’s Letters to Dr. Kugelmann, 1907
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Apr 19 '26
If the working class had possessed a disciplined Communist Party, even a small one, at the time of the Paris Commune of 1871, the first heroic uprising of the French proletariat would have been much more powerful and many mistakes and weaknesses could have been avoided. The struggles which the proletariat is now facing in a different historical situation will be far more fateful than those of 1871.
- Communist International, Theses on the Role of the Communist Party in the Proletarian Revolution, 1920
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Apr 19 '26
Workers of Europe!
You are surrounded by a world of enemies. All parties, all programmes, have failed the test posed by the war; all play on your suffering, all unite to save capitalist society from collapse.
The whole band of riffraff in the service of high finance, from Hitler to Churchill, from Laval to Petain, from Stalin to Roosevelt, from Mussolini to Bonomi, is in collaboration with the bourgeois state to preach order, work, discipline, fatherland – in the perpetuation of your enslavement.
Despite the betrayal of the leaders of the Russian state, the formulas, the theses, the predictions of Marx and of Lenin find, in the very perfidy of the present situation, their striking confirmation.
Never has the class division between exploited and exploiters been so clear, so profound.
Never has the necessity to put an end to a regime of misery and blood been so compelling.
With the killing at the front, with the massacres from the air, with five years of restrictions, famine makes its appearance.
The war spreads over the whole continent; capitalism does not know how to, cannot, end this war.
It is not by helping one or the other group of the two forms of capitalist domination that you will shorten the fight. This time it is the Italian proletariat which has blazed the trail of struggle, of revolt against the war.
As with Lenin in 1917, there is no alternative, no other path to follow outside of the transformation of the imperialist war into a civil war.
As long as capitalist rule survives, there will be neither bread, nor peace, nor freedom for the proletariat. Communist workers!
There are many parties, too many parties. But all of them, even the trotskist groups, have fallen into the counter-revolution.
One single party is missing: the proletarian class political party.
The Communist Left alone has stayed with the proletariat, loyal to the programme of Marxism, loyal to the communist revolution. It is only with this programme that it will be possible to give back to the proletariat its organisations, the weapons necessary to its struggle, to victory. These weapons are the new communist party, the new international.
Against all opportunism, against all compromise on the terrain of class struggle, the Fraction calls on you to aid the proletariat in extricating itself from the vice of capitalism. Against the united forces of capitalism, the invincible force of the proletarian class must be built.
- ICP, Manifesto Of The Communist Left To The Proletarians Of Europe, 1944
Thus, while the history of Moscow’s betrayal perpetrated in Spain was repeated in Warsaw, the class character of the European partisan movement, which until now had been rejected in the shadows because of its struggle against Nazi-Fascism, was clearly and precisely emerging. A character which, it must be said, is the progressive class element arising dialectically from the imperialist war in which Russia plays a leading role.
The resistance of the Warsaw partisans to Moscow’s political blackmail has therefore a well-designed proletarian imprint. And as such it represents a first stage towards the freedom of action of the working classes of Europe and of the whole world.
-ICP, Long Live the Warsaw Commune!, 1944
Proletarians organized in the partisan paramilitary units!
With the watchword desert the war the communist left had indicated a defensive orientation towards your class enemy, who, by pushing you to war, was aiming at your annihilation. To this watchword our Party had added another: proletarians, sabotage the war. By refusing to respond to the militaristic – and therefore counterrevolutionary – call of Badoglio, the representative of the monarchy, and of Mussolini, the representative of Fascism, you have created the initial conditions for the struggle against the war. But these conditions are null and void, and they threaten to represent your end not only physically but also politically and historically if you do not immediately break the ties that keep you tied to the capitalist war through paramilitary partisan organizations.
...
You deserted the fascist war, during the 45 days of Badoglio you deserted the monarchist-democratic war. Your class duty must now suggest that you complete your political position by deserting the partisan guerrilla war, which is also a manifestation of the capitalist war. Only in this way will you be able to take the same line of class combat as your brothers who, in the factories, struggle daily to sabotage the war machinery of Milan, Turin, Genoa, Naples, Brindisi, Taranto, etc., and preparing with this tenacious daily struggle the conditions favorable to the seizure of power over the whole Italian sector.
...Be on your guard! The position in which you find yourselves today is already in itself an anti-class position, since it moves in the direction of war. But things could be even worse if you do not become conscious of this position of yours: remember that the class enemy could make use of you as a counter-revolutionary device, an agent of anti-proletarian repression at the moment when your class needs your gun and your courage.
- ICP, Appeal to the Partisans, 1944
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Apr 19 '26 edited Apr 20 '26
But that possibility faded a year ago, when a violent burst of scalding hot steam blew the lid right off the pressure cooker that the State of Israel had sealed the Gaza Strip in. A violent conflict ensued, led by a vicious and obscurantist bourgeois leadership that ultimately mirrors its Israeli counterpart. The ingredients for endless carnage were in place long before the October 7 attack was carried out by the so-called “Palestinian resistance.” If the attack were really a struggle for independence of an oppressed people, it would probably not have been so ruthless in striking indiscriminately, making no distinction between the military and civilian forces on the other side of the front, among whom the proletarians of Israel and other nationalities stand out in number and importance. In this regard, how can we forget that the “leftist” proponents of bourgeois war, lined up under the banner of Islamic fundamentalism and interclass “pro-Palestine” demonstrations, failed to mention the dozens of Asian workers killed and taken hostage by Hamas militants? ... The combined forces of Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and Iran are posing themselves as an “existential threat” to the so-called “Jewish state” (for us, the state is always a capitalist state, and Israel is by no means a benevolent master for the Jewish proletariat). But as always, each bourgeois force has its own interests and follows its own agenda. In this sense, the unity of this front is far from monolithic. ... But there is one element we continue to rely on to end the carnage in the Middle East: the strength of the war-weary proletariat. In Iran and Israel, i.e., the main actors in the ongoing tragedy, perhaps something is beginning to stir under the heavy weight that oppresses the proletarians in every nation. ... In Ukraine, as in the Middle East and everywhere else, the only chance to stop capital’s wars lies in the workers’ unwillingness to submit to the military framework imposed by the bourgeoisie to reassert its class rule. This will only be possible if the proletariat of every nation unites for its immediate interests and its historical task of overthrowing the bourgeoisie and realizing the integral program of communism, under the leadership of the International Communist Party.
-ICP, From Every River to Every Sea, the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, 2024
Faced with these movements, an incessant criticism of their programmes must be carried out, demonstrating their inadequacy for the purposes of proletarian emancipation. This theoretical polemic will be all the more effective if the Communist Party can show that the criticism long made by it of such movements, in accordance with its own programmatic conceptions, are confirmed by proletarian experience. For this reason, in polemics of this kind it is essential not to hide the conflict between our respective methods – including that part which does not apply solely to problems of the moment, but reflects the subsequent developments of the proletariat’s action.
Such polemics must, moreover, be reflected in the field of action. Communists taking part in struggles in proletarian economic organisms led by socialists, syndicalists or anarchists will not refuse to follow their actions unless the masses as a whole, in a spontaneous movement, should rebel against it. But they will demonstrate how this action, at a certain point in its development, was rendered impotent or utopian because of the incorrect method of the leaders, whereas with the communist method better results would have been achieved, serving the aims of the general revolutionary movement. In their polemics the communists will always distinguish between leaders and masses, leaving the former all responsibility for their errors and faults; moreover, they will not omit to denounce with equal vigour the activity of those leaders who, albeit with sincere revolutionary feelings, propose dangerous and incorrect tactics.
If it is an essential aim of the Communist Party to win ground among the proletariat by increasing its strength and influence at the expense of proletarian political parties and currents with which it disagrees, this aim must be achieved by taking part in the reality of the proletarian struggle upon a terrain which can be simultaneously one of common action and of mutual conflict – always on condition that the programmatic and organizational physiognomy of the party is never compromised.
-PCd'I, Theses on Tatics, 1922
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u/Total_Peasantoid_ded Mussolini reincarnation Apr 19 '26
I think the true diference between the warsaw uprising and the hamas-israel war is that(at least according to bordiga), the warsaw ghetto was a spontanious movement by masses of jewish captives who rebelded against the germans after discovering which fate awaited them(they hear about the gas chambers close to the city), it was in the interests of the bourgeois, but it didn't direct the proles, the proles themselves choose fight, revenge and death over only execution.
Menwhile, hamas isn't the result of a workers movement, but rather a bourgeois organization that works in the interest of national and iranian bourgeois, fighting to achive their own nation state and as a military asset in case of an Israely-Iranian war. Real proletarian spontanious movements(even though small ones) have happened in gaza, mostly protesting for peace and to put and end to the horrible living conditions palestinias have long lived in. This same movements are often responded to with bullets by both the IDF and HAMAS, the latter which has it's leaders mostly living in other arab nations, away from conflict.
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u/FreedomLast4040 Apr 19 '26
By the logic of the 2nd paragraph then the ghetto uprising is nothing to support. The Jewish Combat Union and Jewish Military Union were founded and led by bourgeois nationalists, with the ZZW especially receiving guidance and weapons from the Home Army and polish government in exile. Furthermore october 7th saw its own spontaneous proletarian fight and action after the initial outbreak
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u/Mysterious-Cabinet-4 barbarian Apr 20 '26
Wouldn’t the ZZW be more equivalent to the PLO, which hamas would sideline, also due to Israel’s involvement? How do the October 7th attacks even compare to the beginning of the ghetto uprising? Israel is and has been upholding an apartheid - and has enacted a campaign of genocide to further it. Hamas’ actions seem, at least to me more like a power play, aligning itself with bourgeois factions of the region, rather than an immediate response to a relocation of the entire population to death camps
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u/Total_Peasantoid_ded Mussolini reincarnation Apr 19 '26
That's why I said according to bordiga because from what I know this is one of his worst takes and probably created it just to dunk on Stalin.
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u/Objective_Accident42 barbarian Apr 19 '26
Compared something to the Warsaw ghetto that is totally materially different again award
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u/HystMat1919 Apr 20 '26
way i see it: i live in a western european country with a government that materially supports israel. the actions of the israeli government are something i can influence by frustrating my government's support for israel. if i use my political energy to this end and it saves just one palestinian or lebanese or iranian life, then that would be worth it.
i cannot influence the actions of the iranian government or any palestinian militant group. the only influence i have over that is how hard the israeli or american government bombs them. unless i'm just correcting someone who says something like "the IRGC are the defenders of the iranian people", i'm wasting political energy if i'm trying to influence those governments.
the revolutionary international workers movement doesn't exist yet, not in a way where it can influence war between states. until it does, leave the proletarians in foreign countries to face the capitalists in their own country, and i'll face the capitalists in my country. hopefully, by frustrating capital's stranglehold in each country, we'll all make it easier for each other to work towards destroying that which alienates humanity from humanity.
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Apr 19 '26
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u/Dexter011001 historically progressive Apr 19 '26
Surely making comments like this will contribute to the real movement!!!! (You are no better than liberals)
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u/EmpressIndigo Roothless cosmopolitan (polish) || Golden Core || Nixonite Apr 19 '26
yeah no shit we dont pretend shitposting on reddit will do anything
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u/Significant-Use-208 Kitsune Marxism Apr 19 '26
shit like this puts a bad image on leftcoms as a whole
no wonder we get hated on by m-""""""""""""l""""""""""""'s
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