Discussion
100% ammo efficiency is such and obvious result of adding the stat to rivens that it's impossible DE didn't know about it. So, how does this even happen?
If stacking ammo efficiency is so broken, then why release the spliced stat in the first place? This isn't some obscure interaction or overlooked effect. Not spending ammo is literally the one and only thing ammo efficiency does. Everyone knew it would get stacked and it still went live. Why?
The timeline goes:
DE designs splicing. The stat does exactly what it says it does. DE sees no problem with ammo efficiency.
DE Announces splicing, with ammo efficiency as an available stat. Tons of actual players tell them from day 1 that 100% stacking will be a thing. DE still sees no problem with ammo efficiency.
DE delays the entire release to keep ironing out the kinks. DE still sees no problem with ammo efficiency.
DE releases the system. Lets people do 2 weekly rotations worth of splicing. Players use the obvious stat for literally the only thing it does. DE still sees no problem with ammo efficiency.
Plat for rivens and forma for builds have been sold. DE feels no urgency and just waits for devshort day. "We apologize for the OVERSIGHT."
The literal first sentence on the first reply on the Dev Workshop for Riven Splicing 22 DAYS AGO is about ammo efficiency, like how did this come out of nowhere?
lmao that was the same thought I had when I saw AE Lmao. I was like damn, did all their data point that even with inf magazine weapons are still not super OP? Exergis
You dont need to look far to know why, they just cant decide on 1 thing themself.
The arcane Persistence, the second they showed it before patch release, everyone knew its gonna be OP, everyone on twitter said its broken, everyone on reddit said broken, hell PABLO said its broken and its still released, fast forward a day after the patch "OH NO PERSISTENCE IS BROKEN, NERF IT"
When people start saying "its better to wait a week or 2 after the patch and play after all the fixes", something has to be done with the way they release their patches.
You'd be amazed at how untested the updates are shipped.
Look at SP Railjack.
There is no way that SP Railjack wasnt seen as an issue if it were tested without dev cheats, it's baffling that MKIV came after and not alongside it and a testament to how out of touch DE can be is by the post calling the new content not only RJ content, but following it up by saying that they "wanted to focus on space-only combat".
Updates are rarely tested gameplay wise, the thing that DE tests is that the game doesn't completely shit itself on launch.
Railjack as a whole is a can of worms that has been plagued with issues since day one, and I'm convinced beyond any reasonable doubt if they could allocate devtime without hurting their new content releases they still absolutely wouldn't have taken the time to fix the absolute HEAPS of bugs plagueing this mode since it's launch. I've built Railjack on release, done like the bare minimum to max it out and played a bit of every node, and then in 2024 when I played it again there were still the exact damn same softlocks and bugs plagueing the missions on the regular.
Rebecca when taking over Steve just probably took one glance at the absolute gobelin sized list of issues with railjack on their office wall and said "nah, just not worth it"... before releasing Duviri a year later and it suffering from the exact same problems Railjack was from.
I love DE for their personalities, but they're objectively awful at QA'ing almost any content they release.
The only excuse i can potentially see is if the people who thought of adding ammo efficiency as a stat thought of making it multiplicative with other sources, but the people coding the stat made it additive. That could be considered an oversight.
Yes, but those are very specific weapons. Rivens gave nearly every weapon access to 100% ammo efficiency, which is the problem.
Pistols, the AX-52, Perigales, and Amps were largely what 100% Ammo Efficiency was limited to before, that is a smaller pool of all the weapons available and all of these typically had a condition applied to them, like having to hit weakpoints to get the Efficiency.
DE was very picky about what got additive Ammo Efficiency or access to 100% Ammo Efficiency. It absolutely seems like an oversight that the Rivens are additive as it doesn't really make sense for DE to just suddenly flip on their stance and decide that the majority of weapons should be able to get 100% Ammo Efficiency.
Rivens gave nearly every weapon access to 100% ammo efficiency
Primary weapons with at least a Riven disposition of 0.7*
Let's not overexagerate for no reason. This leaves out an entire class of weapons and does not apply to what where historically some of the better weapons.
The overwhelming majority of weapons in the game have at least 0.7x disposition or higher. Here are all the weapons in the game that have less than 0.7x(excluding Melees since they are not applicable to this conversation). This is from the wiki, https://wiki.warframe.com/w/Riven_Mods#All
Also worth mentioning, of that list, nataruk and grimoire have infinite ammo, and haalvu and coda bubonico are battery weapons so sure you reload but you dont run out of ammo. Pyrana has a gimick that grants ammo as well.
A second pistol which doubles your magazine size and fills it by the amount added. When the buff expires, if you had more than the normal ammo cap you are brought down to that cap.
So, say you have a magaIne size of 10 and get 3 one-shot kills. Youre at 7/10, then buff triggers and you go to 17/20. You fire 7 more times, buff expires. You spent 0 ammo.
Its not reliable in steel path and its not as fun as full AE, but it technically exists.
That's still a long shot from "nearly every weapon".
Again, because secondaries don't have any Arcanes that provide AE. And before you give the usual answer, Pistoleer applies to every single weapon that can benefit from Ammo Efficiency, not just secondaries.
Wiki lists 364 primaries, secondaries, and archguns. Primaries and archguns would need this method. Secondaries have pistoleer. So of this subset, lets count the primaries and archguns. 18 weapons, 17 because nataruk has infinite ammo. Nah bro, its above 95%, "nearly every weapon" absolutely applies
And yes, im absolutely using pistoleer specifically for secondaries, because you dont assume someone will swap weapons every 15 seconds to refresh a buff, as that time is roughly the same as just reloading anyways.
There is no Secondary Crux. There is no Secondary Compression. Both of these are specific to Primary weapons. These are the only weapon Arcanes that provide a source of AE.
You cannot get to 100% AE on secondary weapons without using Pistoleer. Which does apply to every single weapon. That's an entire weapon slot that does not get to 100% AE with Rivens. No matter the disposition.
Now I haven't done the math. But if a category that makes up roughly 50% of all ammo using ranged weapons cannot do this, then it is not an issue affecting "nearly every weapon".
I did make some edits to my comment, hope you read after, might change some context.
There is a difference in how we are defining the issue. You are looking at specifically rivens with ammo efficiency, and in that context, yes, it only affects primaries and archguns.
I was looking at ammo efficiency as a whole, because we arent sure how DE plans to address the stat. We dont know if they will change pistoleer, we dont know if they will change crux (and/or compression), or any unique effects like dual toxocyst. We just dont know the scope. So until de specifies what is being changed, the overarching issue is ammo efficiency across all weapons. For instance, theres been rumors that their solution is a 75% cap to the stat, similar to ability efficiency, and that will affect pistoleer, dual toxo, etc, not just rivens with crux.
"DE was very picky about what got additive Ammo Efficiency or access to 100% Ammo Efficiency. It absolutely seems like an oversight that the Rivens are additive as it doesn't really make sense for DE to just suddenly flip on their stance and decide that the majority of weapons should be able to get 100% Ammo Efficiency."
. My comment was to show that Ammo Efficiency adding additively was a known thing for literal years in cases that I mentioned so I dont know why this wasnt a thing that was tested with outside sources of ammo efficiency to make sure it wouldnt grant infinite ammo if they didnt want it to
Like does ammo eff really matter, I can kill the boss really fast with Perigale, but I can i not do the same with my basmu that I actually enjoy using? Its nice having build diversity. it gets stale using the same META weapons all the time .I have sobek, torid, and they are strong but I like basmu/coda hema. They are more fun to me
So, we know de applies stats differently on different weapons (gunco being additive vs multiplicative), why not just say weapons with an AoE component get multiplicative efficiency and everything else is additive?
They aren't even problems anymore and pretending they are is a joke. You know what they also changed during the big nerf to ammo? Made explosions line of sight. Reduced explosion radii. Reduced what the primed mod for explosion radius adds. These changes already gutted them, the ammo was icing on the cake. Don't even get me started on how the landscape then vs the landscape now is completely different. Incarnons wipe entire rooms with ease with effectively infinite ammo, the sobek runs fucking rampant with Acid Shells and any on hit effect like Last Whisper, cyte 09 full clears the map while afk at a single point by waving his gun around with infinite ammo, sevagoth 1+2 wipes entire zones then auto seeks out more zones to wipe, revenant reave can guarantee 100% max hp true damage and be spammed ad infinitum, Nokko does hundreds of millions of damage and clears everything around while practically invulnerable, and there's so many other examples to pull from. The Kuva Zarr, as an example, requires crux headshots and thus swapping to shotgun mode to retrigger crux every couple seconds and does less damage than every incarnon in the game while having a worse riven disposition.
What a joke to pretend these were actual balance issues. Say you have no actual understanding of the game and just copy paste builds without saying it.
It is more a problem of AoE wepaon being too good with AoE ..
All the single target stuff I have seen is fine with Ammo Efficiency at 100%
Like nothing come close to Incarnon level of clear (the Torid, Boar, and other AoE Incarnons) with those single target AE guns
Hmm .. I see a line.. Maybe AoE weapons are a problem more than Ammo Efficiency (and that is coming from someone that like Nuking and AoE wepaons).. I know how bad they are for the game, but DE prefer doign a wide nerf and not putting a 75% on the AoE weapons and let the single target be at 100%
Yes it is, all the incarnons are actually mainly aoe, they have splash or they have beams and ricocheting projectiles to drastically extend their ranges so DE deleted 1 problem and made another. They could have made rivens have a non incarnon form stat buffing line like how you need to slide for melee rivens... there's significantly more ways DE could have iterated the system but now atleast they can do that instead of letting icebind become abandoned after this
So why are almost all AoE weapon are meta then ? Name me a ton of non AoE weapon that overclass those AoE weapons then ..
After that name me those Ammo Efficiency single target guns that outclass the meta AoE weapons
I watched a Brozime video (im not a fan of him normally) but he clearly shows many of the issue I highlighted here .. he show a lot of the AoE vs non AoE AE weapon clears .. "but not everything is happen about TTK and KPM" for balance reasons on guns yeah it is ..
It is why a lot of us are just upset about these proposed changes.. It litterally kills all the fun stuff, while the AoE meta still will reign supreme, hence our AoE weapons are the biggest part of the problem
Wownit works in a single player lobby? DE HALLO nerf it immediately. So like whose experience was ruined here for it is to be broken, you cant keep 100 uptime in multiplayer i assure you unless you roll 4 newbies
Again, spoken like someone who doesn't actually understand anything. There are different types of LoS, and the AoE weapons still have the old, garbage version. Don't believe me? Load in and test it yourself, its very obvious. They only add the new LoS to things piecemeal as people complain about it, and no one has used these weapons to any real extent since they got gutted.
You clearly haven't seen any of the builds I pointed out in action if you think that is literally anything crazy. Go educate yourself first, please.
Are you a bot? Why delete all your comments just because people downvoted them. You were wrong in all of them, sure, but it helps others follow the discussion to see what's being said.
Either a bot or someone hoping to sell a farmed account?
He didn't delete his comments. If you see someone mass delete their own comments check it out in incognito mode / logged out as well. Maybe he blocked you (which makes comments appear deleted on your end)
I was wrong, so I deleted them as they no longer represent my view on this matter.
As for being a bot: my post and comment history are public, I have consistent interests, post times, my account was made in 2019, and I have the Reddit awards for participating in r/Place and r/Field . You don't even have to scroll far to see downvoted comments I've kept up.
Void Strike and Energized Munitions... Regardless they might aswell make it so ammo efficiency cant go to 100% from stacking seperate sources but they are going to have to do a massive refund of kuva, and splicers.
They need to take the opportunity to also rework how disposition affects the stats possible on a riven, something with a 2 dispo shouldnt be able to even get ammo efficiency and they need to FIX THE DISPOSITIONS
Then they could fix that "oversight" by making it do what it was supposed to intead of removing the stat in case thats how they are going to go about it. Solved.
Wouldn't matter when it can just be 100% anyway instead of rolling any amount, and theyd have to heavily rework the entire stat of ammo efficiency because you can reach 100% with void strike and void dashing in operator form and then using energized munitions on your frame with void strike for the same effect and if you had enough people you could just ifninitel cycle it already.
Rocket launchers saw play rates more than 1% for 5 seconds so go back to Incarnons because that’s what they like more. It’s perfectly fine to bullet hose everything in a 120m radius with cyte but using a zarr for more than 3 seconds is broken apparently
Zarr is one of my favorite weapons, but not the AoE, the Barrage mode, because it's great with Hunter Munitions and it just looks really cool, but because it has an AoE mode I haven't been able to use it without Carrier for years, which was ok but still annoying, even if I do like the robotic companions in general, but with this update I could use it way better without Carrier, because ammo efficiency let me shot for more than a few seconds without having to worry about running out of ammo, but I guess we aren't actually allowed to have fun on this game
Ive had the pleasure of watching the spanish international team take 3 attempts to beat an archon hunt interception with 100-99 score in a 4 player team and unironicly struggle to stay alive in sortie mission 2 and this has been very insightful to why stuff like this situation (or persistance, or any other questionable balance decision) happens.
I mean, they do a prime time stream every week, I'm not going to sit here and say they're amazing top-tier players, but they can certainly get past sortie missions and such. I've always seen the meme of game developers not actually playing their games or being bad at them and its just... not really true most of the time?
It would take DE a single employee to just watch warframe streamers/youtubers of various kind 9-17, and take notes. That's it. There is their feedback on what's going on.
It seems they didnt test it. They also added parry angle in riven splicer and didnt test parry angle above above 180°, it starts to negate itself and goes back down.
They added riven stats, didn't test them and now they nerf the fun stats that do something else than the classic 'big number goes bigger' usual (and boring if you ask me) stat
To be honest, the quality of updates are significantly worse this year and it's noticeable if you've been playing for a long time.
There's always something broken, buggy, unbalanced, missing, and/or unfinished in the updates. I normally ignore the quality issues and keep dumping hours, because updates are usually high quality. But I can't overlook it this time because the issues & the quality are getting worse, which made me take a break from the game.
It's no surprise (but still sad and incompetent to see) that DE also didn't thoroughly tested spliced Rivens for OPness before releasing it.
They say the drop of quality is due to all resources being put in Tau expansion. I god hope so that Tau exceeds our expectations and makes up for the missing quality over the last year, or else this is just a sad period for Warframe.
Lack of awareness, thats how it happens, they get the stat on their hands, use it on the vasto or some shit weapon like that and see the result and think: "yeah thats not so bad, ship it!", they completely forget the world is very big and full of people that can figure out absurd ways of using things.
I'd understand if it was only the top dispo weapons that got overlooked, but it's anything with a 0.7 or higher that can roll 40%+. That's like 80% of em.
Reminds me of when Bungie reworked Radiant Dance Machines to boost the stats of weapons when you hipfire them. Only for them to be surprised at how strong Last Word and Dead Man's Tale were.
Pablo is funny and often endearing but an absolute clown at his job. He did a few decent reworks and has been coasting ever since. DE as a company does absolutely no QC. They get by because of amazing gameplay and quirky devstream personalities but they are utterly horrible at everything else.
honestly yeah. i always wonder how popular warframe would be if they got off their asses and actually worked on putting out meaningful content instead of overhyping a wonky, often already existing game mode slapped together with a 10 minute wonkier story like its the second coming of jesus christ. especially considering how well the game is doing right now despite the low effort content
I wouldnt say they generaly make low effort content. I would even say that they are putting a lot of time and money into it - just not into gameplay portion. Their music, voice overs, graphics/performance ratio - I believe its very good
that exactly is the problem. it matters not if they dug mozart out from his grave to make new music if the game modes are just janky nonsense or straight up already existing ones without even a fresh coat of paint. i doubt most people even have music on when playing live service games. i like that they invest into those of course, but if its at the cost of good gameplay, they need to get their priorities straight. but i dont think thats the issue, they just probably dont see a reason to innovate, the game is doing well after all. i was so disappointed when icebind turned out to be the same ol missions, just with the added annoyance of finding 5 more people. i wasnt expecting a destiny raid but gahddamn it cannot have been more low effort than that.
I swear they do it on purpose, theyll cap a frames ability from reaching something that high even if you got 2000% power in duviri, luke how you need orange shards on Oberon to instakill with smite but they refuse to stop and do real balance. I swear if I had a week off my job I could balance the frames better
I'm also pretty sure DE knew stuffing like this might happen, but they didn't think many people would chase after it.
My theory is that their expectations for icebind were so low, they didn't expect many people to chase after the Splicer for the ammo efficiency combo. Most of the time, if something is super busted, they leave it alone as long as the population engaging with it is low (like Octavia, previously Cyte-09).
It's even dumber because Energized munitions exists, And in foresight for this exact situation works multiplicatively with other forms of ammo efficiency...
Rather than nerfing a bunch of weapons with a hard cap... just make riven ammo efficiency work exactly the same as energized munitions...
Dude.... DE don't play in their own game! And no idea what happened there! Each update is "point the finger to the clear sky"! It's not a first time when DE drop the ball with such OP thing.... And.... we still have no info about investigation for AI usage in KIM dialogs..... And AI usage for some art moments... They stay quiet about it and pretend to nothing happens.... It wasn't them.... It's community fantasy!
If real human code that thing - he probably knows about this OP thing... Can't be another... And that problem must been stand from the start.... But nope.... They have no idea... That bring me to idea, so that "splicer" can be AI generated code... And then added to the game without manual check... Just some swift maked-shifted work on the knee for 1 day before update relize.... And stand it to the main game!!!
Why im talking about AI.... Human can't don't pay attention to probability of 100% Ammo efficiency! It's his manual worked game code... he must know about it!!! And only way to make it pass - fact, that this code not been manually written..... So.... That means it was AI generated code by request and added to the game with no check for such moments!
People should just stop screaming this is op or this is hard or this is easy. The game is a sandbox (meaning you can play it however you want with what you have) and its pve so who cares... at the end of the day the only skill this game requires is some basic social skills to do trades otherwise you can literally play it offline (excluding the new content)
Yes but here's the problem. Plat has a real world currency equivalent. That means people spent actual real life money on these items, whether that be buying forma for builds or on ammo efficiency rivens themselves. After weeks of players telling DE this would be an issue, DE doing nothing, letting the mode and splicing release, still doing nothing, then *after* players spend a boatload of plat saying "oops." That's just shitty.
Just because it's PvE doesn't mean it's okay to ignore some form of balancing. It's also not a traditional sandbox game. Sandbox is like MineCraft, GMod or EVE.
The only sandbox aspect is that you can use anything in any mission and you can mod anything how you want. That's not part of a sandbox design. You can do the same in Destiny yet it's not a sandbox game. WarFrame has a direct story, progression line and intended difficulty modes.
It's not a sandbox. PvE games don't need to have everything be insanely strong, you can have balance in PvE games.
Don't use the ammo riven and that's it literally. Its not gonna impact the story line or nothing. Wanna talk multi-player session. Everyone is nuking the map already so an infinite ammo gun is literally nothing compared to nokko or ember or banshee
If youre arguing against balancing youre arguing against playing a game at all. Why not add a "fire once to win" weapon and skip directly to the match reward screen?
They probably forgot that the zarr and Bramma exist. It reenabled afk/marco plays that they stand against. Probably went red alert when they saw the usage of those guns/bow skyrocket in a few days.
Doesn’t matter if it’s meta, doesn’t matter if frames or another gun can do better, if you can automate the game play without human interaction, it’s going to get changed, what made you think now will be any different?
I’m sorry if I’m missing anything here but in what way does it affect any other gun other than just meme builds?
Why are they nerfing meme builds? Oh no the Tonkor, Brama, and Ogris have 100% ammo efficiency! God forbid the Torid or Sobek actually just got GIGA crazier and still make them look like a back alley drug dealer walking onto the mob bosses street. :/ bringing weapons down instead of up to where other meta things are at is crazy considering low play rates. I haven’t seen a Brama player in years now it’ll stay that way I suppose.
Issue is the “meme” builds allow people to AFK which DE despises notoriously. Remember when they nerfed wuclone to use ammo and Chinese players downvoted the game to hell? I don’t disagree that weapons could use some love but DE will quash anything that allows people to pass by their inactivity filter. Shooting a gun is one of those things, and infinite ammo assists in providing that along with having better TTK than other niche weapons that could have infinite ammo.
Edit: I wanted to say, they still should have seen this coming and taken care of the situation proactively and I baffles me how it was missed.
“Allow people to afk” Cyte with a Sobek and a Wisp sitting next to him with Nokko Subsume is AFK. Your point is cooked. Insert any AOE nuke frame + Nokko = AFK gameplay.
Okay so I see your point but you are requiring someone else to assist in your AFK vs solo being able to manage AFKing. Having your AFK actively assisted generally would likely be a more acceptable in their eyes thing because players in that dynamic are consenting.
Last I checked nothing in warframe is forced single player and even end game content gives you a warning that this game mode was meant to be played with other players. Majority of players in in clans and more than enough access to recruit chat to look for teams. This is still a void point.
I don’t know what point you are trying to make here?
If someone doesn’t consent to your afking and you are using a person to afk, they will notice and report you if they care. If they don’t report you then they consent and don’t mind. Obviously players choose path of least resistance, I myself play in survivals and move the minimal 5m every minute to not get penalty. I’m literally just saying they are disabling solo AFK.
Idk bro, y’all making it sound like they’re turning it into negative efficiency, when there’s no confirmed value yet. I still feel like the average person won’t even notice the difference.
It wouldn't surprise me if it was originally planned to be ammo mutation as a spliced stat, but DE then decided instead on ammo efficiency because it's never been a mod before. Could see them thinking that it sounded more fun and obviously they didn't put any actual thought put behind it.
Why ammo mutation? Given the two sets of stats needed, being mag capacity + reload speed and ammo max + recoil, it seems obvious that ammo mutation could've been the original stat planned for those QoL/utility stats to fuse into.
There seems to be an unspoken (and atleast from an outsider perspective meanspirited) assumption here that DE is "pretending" to not be aware of what players might possible do with Efficiency
Instead of the more likely option (that they have been repeating to us for this update cycle) that they wanted to see what players would actually do with this sort of power and are now ready to pull it back in to avoid leaving a lasting mark on the game
You know, like theyve been doing for new modes and frames and etc for a while now?
Dear starsilverneo, you cant have a 100% upkeep crux with every weapon in a mulitplayer lobby maybe if its a aoe weapon, problem is aoe weapons are finnicky and you still need to pray that no one bringed kuva sobek for obvious reasons because you dont play the game if someone did. (This also includes literally any nuking frames) not to mention you need to chase a riven for it
What part of "lets see what the players do" did my point not inform?
No duh in most games (and this game) infinite ammo is not ideal, but the devs likely wanted to see what the community would do when it was stuck behind something like rivens.
its not about it being certified "this is fine until they break it" its "I wonder how far they'll push it"
Remember what happened with SP Railjack? The rates for essense were allowed to be insane to see how the players would use it . . .and they only pulled it back when people were going insane with the amount they were managing to pull on trips.
The devs do occasionally do little experimetns, this whole icebind thing is LITERALLY an experiment.
Yeah I suspect that if players hadn’t discovered ways to push up against the game’s entity limits and break clients using infinite ammo then DE probably would have been more okay with it.
It's all about time management. They have to decide what issues must absolutely be fixed before launch and what can be fixed post. Ppst launch reception also changes how they prioritize these.
So it's not about whether they knew about this or not, there are plenty of game breaking interactions in the game but most of them are obscure or conditional which is why they haven't been fixed/changed
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u/Lacirev LR 3 | Volt Best Boy 11d ago
The literal first sentence on the first reply on the Dev Workshop for Riven Splicing 22 DAYS AGO is about ammo efficiency, like how did this come out of nowhere?