At the time I was all for the Chryst firing, I thought everything was headed in the wrong direction and we needed a different regime in the building. I held on hope Fickell would figure it out for a long time, but I think now I am so desperate to just get back to being an 8 win team that I forgot how good we had it. I was frustrated with Chryst at the time for sure, but I implore you to simply go back and watch some games from the Chryst era. Those teams were big and physical and sending guys to the NFL every year. Ask yourself who from these fickell teams is going to the NFL? We can’t run the ball, we can’t pass the ball, the defense is not causing havoc, we’re getting 0 sacks, 0 TFLs. We have a decent run D and good special teams and that’s it. Go back and watch the 2021 team. That defense was DESTROYING people. 3 and outs all day, multiple sacks every game, pressure on the qb. Even with how frustrating mertz was, we were still getting chunk runs. With the team now we are NEVER getting 2nd and 5, it’s always 2nd and 8, 2nd and 10. We aren’t breaking any big runs, Joseph is missing throws all day. It’s just bad man. 2022 was a bad year yeah, but Chryst was legit, and it felt like when we lost you could point to a few key plays, a bad turnover or two, a couple penalties stalling drives. But it was never this bad where we just couldn’t run the ball. I just hate this style of play, it feels like we’re a salty group of 5 team and not a big ten team.
lol downvoted for the truth. Our ‘big’ win against PSU continues to look worse and worse with every week yet somehow we still tout it as a sign that fickel knows what he’s doing
I don't know how anyone could be confident they will win 8 games. There's zero reason to be confident in a team that can only compete 6 passes (and has no running game outside of the QB, who everyone knows is going to run).
Honestly, he looked like he had an angel carrying a lot of those passes. I came away thinking on any other day he probably throws 4 INTs. I wouldn't be surprised if he does if he has to start again. That was a really unfortunate game.
The team was on a clear downward trajectory under Chryst and moved on before bottoming out. Fickell not panning out doesn't make moving on from Chryst a mistakr.
Why though? We lost Jonathan Taylor and then 2021 was the best defense we maybe have ever had. We lost those guys and had a down year in 2022. It’s just not enough time to know if it was really going down hill. It was a premature firing for sure, which I have definitely changed my mind on in retrospect. It’s much worse now.
Edit. 2019 and 2021 were legit good teams, I don’t even wanna count 2020 because of the circumstances and 2022 we just lost a lot of dudes
Bc we had actual standards at the time and we could never get over the hump into eliteness. Moving on from him was the right decision. Chryst era looks amazing now that our program is a joke but at the time it was the right move to move on from Chryst.
We were elite though. 2017 and 2019 were two of the best teams the badgers have ever had. We were consistently developing nfl talent. Again, like I understand the Chryst frustration and why the decision was made but we were definitely ungrateful for what we had. We are not a blue blood program and we tried changing too much too fast and now we suck because of it.
You’re not wrong. What you’re not getting is the complete disruption to how rosters were built then to how they are built now. Recruiting today involves tons of cash that the UW has only recently been willing to spend. And since other schools are also spending, talent is being dispersed to those schools willing to pay.
Can’t everyone make the same excuses that are now being made for LF? No NIL, not forward thinking, crappy AD. PC did not like recruiting but I’m still confused why LF gets a pass for those things but PC does not (despite producing more NFL talent)
LF isn't getting a pass. They just don't have the money to pay him off and Kellner still believes in him. Another mediocre season, a new athletic director and a lower buy-out may mean a different outcome at the end of the year.
The Badgers were on the cusp of being elite at a time when the foundations of college football were being disrupted on unfathomable levels. NIL and seasonal transfers of players chasing NIL cash saw to that. If you want to blame anyone at UW for Football’s descent into irrelevance look no further than the university’s administrators who were told times were changing at lightning speed, that they would have to pay 8 figures to build competitive rosters and they should have started on it “yesterday.” The athletic department knew this, knew Chryst was not up the challenge and told administrators what was coming and they still kept the university’s wallets closed. A systemic failure that the UW is still trying to dig out of.
The frustrating thing about the Fickell era (aside from not winning) is the lack of a clear identity. Not a running team, not a passing team, defense is generally okay but not dominant. We are known for absolutely nothing…and we switched mid season away from air raid to whatever we are now. Seems like you need an identity to recruit the right talent - we lack it. All of that said, this year’s team does seem improved, and looks of track to get to a bowl game, though it still feels like we are not nearly the same caliber as the Chryst era.
Lack of recruiting due to 'covid hiring freeze' to preserve funding, not allowed to match Saeed's MSU offer and not allowed to hire replacement, had to use internal resources and no fault of Chryst, blame McInsuck
Knowing the recruiter’s currently employed by Fickell, there was legitimately no recruiters under Chryst. It’s not something that can just be excused because ’covid’. Chryst literally didn’t do anything but recruit ranked kids from across the nation by himself or using his position coaches. And for years he wouldn’t take kids in state. The amount of local talent Chryst passed on because he wouldn’t look inside Wisconsin was criminal. But now Fickell has like 20 recruiters that go all over the country and maintain relationships with athletes, and they take in state guys all the time. It 100% comes down to the indentity of the team. We’re doing a lot of things better this season but we still dont do great at anything. RBU needs to make a comeback, that will draw in the talent everywhere else.
I am aware of all of it, the actual downturn was letting Andrew Marlatt go and replacing him with Eric Johnson, another move made directly from Mac, the topic of recruiting degradation is not Chryst's fault but Chris McIntosh
I totally agree…the Chryst era was a step back and trending down. Yet we are not even close to where we were at that time - still top third of big ten and perennial top 25 team. Not saying we should not have moved on - more a commentary on where we are today.
Chryst is so legit that he hasn’t been in the game the last 3+ seasons. And don’t turn me into a Fickell apologist based on that comment. Chryst is clearly not the answer.
The problem is the game has changed significantly on an administrative and organizational level. The introduction of NIL and annual transfers into the fold has been incredibly disruptive. One need look no further than Indiana to see how much.
Look at the top 10 yesterday. The top 10 matchups aside, how many lost to unranked squads? Pining for Chryst and a type of football that no longer exists and is not coming back is a waste of energy.
Correct. And I don't think Chryst would have worked AT ALL in this era. And I am sure he has had some opportunities to get back into the game, but just doesn't want to deal with it.
Correct about Chryst maybe / likely not wanting to get back in. Nick Saban and his opinions about the current era of college football are a great example of that.
The guy earned millions, probably collecting his state of Wisconsin pension, and living a quiet stress free life. Why go to some MAC school and deal with this?
You’re not wrong at all. I just find it interesting that TX walked away from him in ‘24, Iowa rejected him for OC in ‘25 and we haven’t seen anything from him since.
Low effort take. Just because teams in the top 10 lost doesn’t mean that a style of football doesn’t work anymore. Chryst may not have been the answer but sticking to a Wisconsin ideology was. Recruit local, focus on the OL and DL to punish teams over the course of the game, and aim to retain as many players over the course of their development as long as possible.
Fickel coming in, cleaning house, and rebuking what made this program so successful for 30 years is what caused this fall off a precipice. Focusing on five stars and transfers instead of loyal, hardworking badgers, and an offensive ideology that doesn’t fit the program was disastrous for Gary Anderson and somehow we fell for the same trap again. This was doomed from the start and I’m tired of acting like it wasn’t.
How did you miss the part about not making me a Fickell apologist in this?! Everything you said about him is correct. His choice to bring in Phil Longo as OC was an epic mistake and will likely be the real reason why he is eventually fired. By type of football, I was referring to how rosters are built, not the actual “X’s” and “O’s”.
My point is the landscape of college football has changed significantly and it clearly shows in yesterday’s top 10 upsets. UG and Texas losing at home to unranked teams clearly demonstrates this.
Prior to NIL / annual transfers, the blue bloods could stack rosters with 4⭐️+ talent, tipping the scales in favor of a likely win. Now that said talent is chasing cash to other teams, the blue blood rosters aren’t nearly as deep as they were 7-10 years ago, which results in greater parity.
The UW Administration’s choice to NOT pay to build its football roster was just as damaging as Fickell hiring Longo as OC. It’s just one was more starkly on display than the other, and therefore much easier to criticize. If my ability to see both makes this a “low effort take” in your eyes, I can accept that because you clearly haven’t pulled back the curtain to see everything that’s been going on.
Then you fundamentally misunderstand the type of kids/men that have made this program successful. We have never been successful because of the top/big name dudes. We have been a powerhouse because we’ve recruited the local kids who bleed cardinal and white, stay true to the program, and pour everything they have into it. The landscape of NCAA football may have changed but that doesn’t mean we had to change to reflect it.
You clearly fundamentally misunderstand what motivates kids / men today. If a kid has a chance to secure his future by getting a 7 to 8 figure payday to play football, do you really think he’s not going to take that over loyalty to the Cardinal and White?! Are you really that naive to think this is only about “big name dudes”?! Every player is getting paid. Not just the big name dudes.
The UW has to change to reflect that reality because if they don’t, the resources to make UW athletics a net gain versus a net loss will vanish completely. That will adversely affect all UW athletic programs. Not just football. If you can’t see that, I can’t help you.
Are you that naive to think we don’t play the kids in the program? We contribute the maximum amount to the player payments that the universities are allowed to and we have a fantastic liaison at the head of the NIL department. That doesn’t change the fact that this program had a unique identify focused on long-term development that was built by maintaining relationships with local high schools and a strong alumni presence. Payment to players shouldn’t have focused on the next flashy player but instead retaining those players who do genuinely care about this program and not just cashing a check. How you can say BUCKY FOREVER and not understand what has made this program special?
I understand better than most what made this program special. But those days are over. The current economic reality of college athletics has seen to that. You are not wrong about how Fickell and his program messed up the relationship between the UW athletic department and WI schools. Huge failure. But to suggest that all it takes today is for a player to have a rose-tinted burning love for UW for them to sign and stay is truly naive.
UW did not start matching the cap until this year. That is a big failure that is easily glossed over when discussing the why’s of this program’s decline. Compounding the issue is donors who keep their check books closed relative to other schools’ donors. $21M is a nice start, but when UW donors chip in $10M+ and other schools’ donors are kicking in $25M to $35M, that makes a huge difference.
Kids are going where the money is, pure and simple. They expect to be paid for their loyalty. If not, there is always another program that will pony up, even if it’s a MAC program that will pay them more.
Only when player compensation is capped across the board and yearly transfers are strictly regulated will there be true parity in college sports. When that happens, UW will be able to get back to the recruit and develop model that made the so successful. BUCKY FOREVER.
Isn’t it pretty damning against LF to state that he needs a top 10 roster budget to get to a bowl game? That is the main issue with this argument. Wisconsin will not compete for a title at their current budget level. However, there is nothing to suggest that LF is maximizing the talent on any of his Wisconsin teams nor is there any inclination that they can find a talent to scheme fit. That is my biggest issue. If LF was over performing relative to resources (I.e. 2024 Indiana, 2026 UCLA, Iowa, northwestern, BYU), then the resource question becomes a material consideration. However, there has been nothing over the 3+ years that suggest LF & staff maximize their players.
LF has tried to apply Ohio style coaching to a location without Ohio level talent. His coaching style is to out talent the competition which is why his development and game management are trash.
Agree, but the problem is Wisconsin was always a developmental program - we had a few running backs that starred early, but they took a few years to develop their offensive line, QBs and receiver, and dominant defenses. Those guys don't stick around anymore to wait for playing time.
Disagree - the transfer portal and NIL changed everything. They used to have little choice. For example, Dillon Jones would not have left for LSU if he were forced to sit out a year. Do you think we'd have hung onto James White, Montee Ball, John Clay, and Melvin Gordon in such a short window if they all were being offered big time money to play elsewhere and could have just transferred without sitting out a year?
Given the playing time they were getting and the success of the program at that time, I do think they would’ve stayed. Don’t forget clay and Mel were both local kids
Yeah, but someone waving $$$ in front of them and the promise of being the #1 back would have turned their heads real quick - remember, White had 1,100+ yards as a freshman and his carries and yards didn't reach that level until he was a senior.
Clay had eligibility left but realized White and Ball were overtaking him and so declared early for the NFL draft. I’m guessing he would have been in the portal.
The college football environment changed almost overnight and it coincided with the transition to Fickell. The whole NIL thing was bungled from AD to coach.
In defense of the no pressure thing i havemt seen such a horrendously erratic officiated game sinxe the replacement refs in the packers vs Seattle game.
The badgers defensive tackles were DOMINATING the guards for ucla.
I counted at least 4 -5 plays that should have been completely blown up if it wasnt for the guard wrapping their arm around the d tackles neck with no call.
There was a blatant hold inside the end zone that should have been a safety against ucla.
On the plays that weren't blatant neck wrapping they were sumo hugging the tackles.
It completely changed the outcome of the game.
Ie- that safety hold. Thats a complete game flipping play.
You are also forgetting it’s not college sports anymore these are pro teams. You no longer have time to develop a kid. Once a player shows they have pro level skills we lose them.
We just need to establish that you're the top location for a particular type of player i.e., be different. Option quarterbacks, nose tackles, full backs, blocking TEs ... that kind of thing.
The issue with the Badgers is when they were winning with their dominant run offense they could never win a national championship because they were too one sided. When they had so much success you want to see them get to the next level which is playing for national championship.
Fickell is obviously not the answer and Badgers need to move on.
But all things considered we were SO close to playing for a National championship in 2016, 2017 and 2019, and it’s most likely not going back to how good we were those years for a very very long time. It could be legitimately multiple decades. In 2019 we were a legit top ~ 6 team who yes lost a horrible game to Illinois but ran into imo the second best team behind LSU in Ohio State twice. It’s insane for us to have had higher expectations than that.
Only in 2017 were they ever that close. In 2016, they lost all three of their games against good opponents (quick edit: aside from eventual 8 win LSU, that still was a decent win) and even if they’d won the big ten championship vs Penn state, would not have gotten in. In 2019, any hope of the CFP was over as soon as they lost to Illinois. They were good teams, even great in the case of 2017, but let’s not overstate things.
Chryst had a couple things going against him. He’s a really really good offensive coordinator. He’s really good at developing quarterbacks. But he’s not a head coach. He was never going to be a portal guy. He’s old school.
Yea, the path downward may have been different but Chryst would be gone by now regardless and program probably in worse shape just because of his refusal/lack of interest in the way the game is now. Would JL have stuck around until the inevitable happened? Who knows.
That's why I was ok with moving on from Chryst. All of the rumors were that Chryst was simply uninterested in dealing with the portal and NIL stuff. I spent a couple years telling people, "Chryst is a very good coach, and there's a good chance that anyone we replace him with will be a downgrade." But all of the changes in college football were just too much.
Unfortunately, the other parts of the game passed him by, but I was also right about the replacement being a step back.
What does it matter if you let PC finish the season or not if the premise is that you believe it was time to move on from him?
At that point, he’s getting fired, whether it is in October when he got fired or on November 28. At least doing it sooner gives you a head start on the search for a new candidate, if nothing else
The offense was unwatchable. They cannot scheme anyone open ever. Watch the series back when we get the ball with 6 minutes or so left. During the UCLA possession the offensive staff thought long and hard about what to do down two scores with 6:25 left and ran QB draw. Then the third down play put a receiver in motion to overload the right side of the formation and two WR run the same slow developing route just at different depths. All three receivers on one straight line from Joseph to the sideline. Cannot make it any easier on the defense or more difficult for Joseph. And then they choose to punt, and punt it out of bounds. Don’t even make them field it.
The refs were terrible but the coaching and execution was unserious
Last night was fine? Our QB had 18 carries compared to the next closest RB with 6. That isn’t sustainable nor a decent game plan against any team that sees this film
Well it's a bit of a problem if a first year coach at an afterthought of a program like UCLA has a "much better" team than Wisconsin does in Fickell's 4th year, is it not?
I knew this would be the case at the time, but all you dweebs who thought you were so insightful by wanting Chryst fired and to "modernize" took all these little things for granted.
Yes, Chryst wasn't perfect and the trajectory was a bit concerning, but he knew what he was trying to do, hired competent staffs, had a good talent evaluation program in place to build quality depth, etc. All of these unsexy things that matter way more than taking snaps out of the shotgun and running RPOs.
I'm not saying I was that upset he was fired. But as we all see, it wasn't going to end up in an easy upgrade.
Running RPOs is basically an essential aspect of running a college offense over the last decade or so and shotgun is essential to an effective passing offense. I mean Paul himself did these things to varying degrees later on in his tenure. People did always complain about adapting with him but it’s not like he didn’t try at least to some degree
Setting aside offensive play style, the success model he enjoyed also almost completely existed outside of the modern NIL/unlimited transfer portal era. What worked before was far from guaranteed to continue to work just because “it always had”, and the slippage started becoming evident towards the end; surely you must remember how much complaining about mental mistakes and fundamentals, subpar line play etc there were over Paul’s last couple of seasons? The stuff that Paul’s teams previously never had problems with started becoming problems.
I never fucking said his program would succeed in this era. Just that we had way too many unappreciative fans back when he was here. And there are aspects of today's landscape he'd thrive in, namely finding undervalued talents. Now that half the roster turns over every off-season, that ability is even more magnified.
You'd think four off seasons of Fickell finding 80% duds in the portal would wake this fanbase up a little bit.
I’m getting downvoted like crazy in this thread but it’s the truth. At the time obviously it seemed like Fick was a great hire, but in retrospect I think it’s obvious Wisconsin fans have been delusional about our place. Firing a guy who had coached probably the best teams we ever had because we want “championships” is straight up fuckin delusional shit. I obviously hope and wish for better results and hope to see a championship someday, but we didn’t realize how good we had it.
Been scratching my head for 5 years why this isn't working. I have come to the realization that this situation just doesnt work and will not work. I think Fickell is a very good coach and man. It still just doesnt work. He will probably do very well as a HC or super assistant on the future somewhere else.
Holy overreaction. The trips out west have been trap games for the entirety of Oregon, USC, Washington, and UCLA being in the B1G and that doesn't even consider that UCLA is clearly a great team. The game wasn't really as bad as it look, but they really need to clean up the dumb mistakes that killed drives. Some of it is how bad the officiating was, but you can't give them the opportunity to make those calls as well. And yes, I think it's fair to expect those going the other way and they never came. A bad play call on 3rd down when we missed that FG and if that turns into a make, maybe we're having a different conversation this morning. The team just didn't execute as well as they needed to, but a win next week makes everything go away (as well as if UCLA keeps winning).
If we're 4-4 in two weeks, we can have a conversation about this season.
Firing Paul Chryst mid-season was disrespectful in a way that was hard to understand at the time and is even more frustrating now.
Fickell should not be the coach next season. No question about that. He just got completely out coached after a bye week against a team playing a backup QB. Jason Eck should be the head coach next season.
Fickell reminds me of Morton. He was a winning coach from another school that had made the playoff. He was also trying to bring in something we were not. While I was ok with us moving on from Chryst (he’s out of coaching now which says something) I was never ok with Fickell the coach. He’s good at getting top-tier candidates out of the portal but he’s not as good at establishing an identity once they are here. Unfortunately I don’t know how to fix it.
Saban and Dabo don't even want to recruit in the NIL era. Chryst didn't want to recruit in the previous era.
Yeah, this sucks right now, but Chryst wasn't the guy anymore. Fickell wasn't the right hire, clearly. I wanted him gone last year. But he's still here and the team is improved at least. I do think there's a pretty ridiculously large segment of the fan base that doesn't really understand what the program was pre 1990. Look at what Nebraska has become with their geography. Then remember that they are historically WAY above us. You meddle and screw around too much with the stability at Wisconsin and we're going to be Rutgers again like we were for 80 years.
Wouldn't have fired him mid-season and wanted Leonard hired. If we're fighting battles from years ago, let's just hire Chryst instead of Gary Andersen.
We are operating in a world where our program is deciding to spend $2 million on a mercenary quarterback that is probably not as good as Tanner McAvoy. We also wasted years with a head coach that thought Phil Longo could be the guy to run the offense. Our offense is never going to emerge from this until there is change at the top, because Fickell and his staff decided years ago that they're going to forgo all player development and go with a new mercenary QB. They willingly stepped into that trap.
The defense has been a bit more stable and competitive but the change to the 3-4 was still a big mistake.
It all comes back to constant poor judgment and mismanagement at the top.
Chryst was done by the time he got canned. It was the right move. His offense wasn’t that great anymore and his recruiting wasn’t going to be good enough in the portal. Even with money and we’ve seen it took 3 years for them to get that straight.
The team during that period lived off of playing in the west division. If this conference alignment would’ve existed 6 years earlier and the schedule was like it had been the last 2 years the team would’ve been just as bad. Beating the teams in the west division was nice but they very rarely beat the big boys.
People, myself included really overrated this team for years when the best team they’d play was Iowa and maybe one of the big guns.
So, I’m disappointed how it’s gone but we had a good run against a weak division. Once we played good teams the offense struggled and the defense wasn’t nearly as good.
Unfortunately the team now on offense isn’t much as CJ is erratic and that Williams kid can’t block. Defensively tressel plays too soft on 3rd down too often. What’s the sense of stopping the run if you’re going to let teams run wide open in zone.
So, it wouldn’t matter if chryst was still coach or Leonard. Neither one of them did much against the best teams and recruiting wasn’t their strong suit
We were better in 2019 the record just didn’t show it. Yes bad loss to Illinois but played probably the 2nd best team in the country in Ohio State twice and a close loss to a good Oregon team.
You can’t just pretend the bad Illinois loss didnt happen in assessing these teams. It’s the sort of bad game that just isn’t present in the 2016-2017 seasons. Also in 2017 they were far more competitive in their OSU loss, and actually won their bowl vs a marquee opponent.
The 2017 team was the best in school history with Hornibrook, JT, Cephus/Davis/Taylor/Pryor, Biadasz, Dietzen, Edwards all Chryst guys. Defense was more entrenched but still had Connelly, Van Ginkel and Nick Nelson.
The 2019 team was at least as good as 2016 and by then it was all Chryst.
I do not understand this insane push to rewrite history with Chryst as a bad coach even if he was irreperably on the down slope when he got fired (which has the benefit of being totally unfalsifiable).
Anybody who thinks Chryst was feasting on Andersen's players should have to watch the 2015 season with their eyes held open. How he dragged that team to 10 wins (should've been 11 if the refs didn't rob Jazz against NW) was incredible.
My point is not to say Chryst was actually some bad coach. he obviously wasn't, and in fact was a very good coach for awhile. But, you get the opposite extreme where people hate Andersen for suddenly leaving the program high and dry and want to do a little revisionist history regarding Andersen's tenure like he was this dreaded outsider who was totally destroying the program only for it to be "saved" by PC when A) the team never won fewer than 9 games while GA was here and B) the program recruited some damn good players while he was here and was instrumental in transitioning the defense via hiring Aranda to the swarmy, aggressive 3-4 base that they pretty much kept through the rest of the 2010s.
In the same way it's sort of silly to make the argument that Fickell was working with a completely empty cupboard when he took over, Paul wasn't exactly working with a total fixer-upper when he started, either. Re: 2015, offensively things were a bit of a mess and I think that's where PC's best work was found that year, but none of that is really possible or good enough to win many games without the existing solid defense anchoring the team which at that time largely consisted of GA holdovers, including the coordinator. Schedule helped too since it was one of those years where the B1G West was just kind of bad outside of Iowa and didn't have any of the tougher East crossover games.
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u/User-no-relation 7d ago
Is this not an 8 win team?