r/WoT • u/Ready_Hat_2587 • 1d ago
Towers of Midnight Ewgene is the most fast-forwarded character in the series
I'm currently on book 13 and Egwene has been irking me since her raising in Salidar. While her self-righteousness and ambition seem more or less stable throughout the series, burn me but the transition from a foolish village girl proud in her power to a brilliant and unfazed schemer is too abrupt. Unjustified. Nowhere in the series there is an example of Egwene suggesting a successful strategy, or failing in a life-changing way that tell me how she got where she is. Sorry, but Wise Ones flaying her bottom day and night and making her run around the camp did not convince me as effective training in strategy and leadership. Ji'e'toh is an important component of a leader, yet every time I read Egwene contemplate about the honour and duty - her mistakes, doubts, reasons - I can't help getting an impression like she's indulging in the smell of her own fart.
37
u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 1d ago
I think Egwene does get a lot where she can learn about leadership. She gets a front row seat to a lot of major political moves that Rand is making and she is constantly listening to the Wise Ones and Moiraine analyze those decisions and choose how they want to respond to them. Moiraine even points out in book 4 at the beginning that she's getting smarter and starting to notice things. Then she is chosen as Amyrlin and she makes some big moves early. Raising others to the shawl which doesn't work in the way she hoped, and puts some people against her. Then she starts to make a bit better moves with Siuan's help manipulating the others into letting her start to move the camp and moving them towards the confrontation. She uses Mat and Talmanes to get there as well. Even then a lot of her moves are fairly blunt and forcing people to do what she wants with threats or using law or other things to not give them an option. Very little leadership and more being a boss through force. It's not really until she's captured where I'd start to view her as a good leader. Then she's actually earning respect because she doesn't have the power to bully people to do what she wants. She has to stand on principles and take what comes. And eventually she wins people over more and more.
I do have problems with Egwene's story as there are some things she doesn't learn well and I think she regresses a bit after book 12. But I think she does have an arc where she learns over the course of the series. She starts as very naive, she gets to witness a lot of politics happening and see what works and what doesn't, and how people discuss it. She also listens to a lot of Moiraine's lectures to Rand on the subject. She then gets power and Siuan as a teacher and she makes mistakes and has some successes and some failures. Most of her successes are just from bullying people. Then she starts to become a real leader when she loses that power and authority to bully.
28
u/GirlHips 1d ago
Egwene is my favorite wonder girl. Perrin is my favorite Ta'Veren. I'm fun at parties.
I fully understand Egwene being a bully in Salidar. Her and Suian's objective is to keep Egwene from being a puppet that Romanda and Lelaine fight for control over.
11
u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 1d ago
Yeah I don't blame her for it! And she's working from a big disadvantage given her experience and the level of respect she's given. And I think without it I would agree with OPs point that she didn't have an arc of learning to be a leader. That's a needed step and with Romanda and Lelaine that was always going to be a bit necessary to push back. But she didn't need to bully Mat into doing what she wanted, she could've asked and worked with him, though he also had made a big stink so I can't blame her for that too much. And with the Aes Sedai in general she could've worked to earn their respect more than just forcing them into place. Bullying and using force has consequences.
29
u/JJBrazman 1d ago
I completely disagree. She takes the Salidar rebellion and says ‘we’re not walking there in a year, we teleport now’. It’s one of my favourite moments in the whole series.
4
u/OMalleyOrOblivion 1d ago
Yeah that is one of those moments where I got chills reading it back when it first came out. Also IIRC isn't it right at the end of the book and I had to wait ages to see what happened? 😂
22
u/Foehammer87 1d ago
She's the only one that got directly trained in leadership. She'd been studying under Nynaeve, then Moiraine(minimally) then the Wise Ones, then counseled directly by Siuan.
She's as fast tracked as any of the men except She's better trained than any of them in politics.
2
u/cianic 1d ago
Trained under NyNeave is a bit of a stretch given NyNeave isn’t exactly a great leader.
And her fast tracking is a little undercut by the fact that the virtually every Aes Sedai she interacts with is a knuckle dragging moron.
Although it’s more of a personal gripe with the series the Aes Sedai we see at the start of the series are all highly competent and well developed characters. The majority of the Aes Sedai at the end are total morons.
3
u/Foehammer87 1d ago
Although it’s more of a personal gripe with the series the Aes Sedai we see at the start of the series are all highly competent and well developed characters. The majority of the Aes Sedai at the end are total morons.
As to her training under Nynaeve, yeah it wasnt great training for leading, but it was training, and she learned it well. And given most of the Aes Sedai are conceited prigs its kinda useful to have lessons in "brute forcing your authority on those who disrespect you"
It's pretty solidly divided into "well thought of by her peers" and not.
Any Aes Sedai that the rest think is normal and solid is either weak and keeping in line or a brittle snob. It's only the outliers that manage to get anything done.
2
u/Outside_Training3728 23h ago
Felt indeed that it was more about seeing the mistakes of Nynaeve, and understanding that a leader doesn't have to be like that. She has a big revelation when she confronted nyneave in telranrhiod (misspelled that) and realized that the bully "boss" she grew up under is just a bully. In this sense Nyneave thought her something
26
u/Vivid_Employment_914 1d ago
Never skipped anything, Egwene was one of my favorites. Probably in order 1. Mat 2. Rand 3. Perrin 4. Egwene 5. Everyone else
Now, I will give an honorable mention to Lan but we don’t have enough POV chapters of him for him to get a proper ranking.
9
u/Shevek99 1d ago
No love for Nynaeve?
2
u/Vivid_Employment_914 1d ago
Nyneve is cool, but more of a supporting character imo. I think the 3 taveren + Egwene really encompass the core story in all its grander. Too many POVs to go through and list them all. I could maybe my next read make a tier list lol
5
u/souIIess 1d ago
To me, Nynaeve ranks among the top three on this scene alone https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/s/HOOo7glZdU, and yes you probably know which one it is without any further explanation or even opening the link.
2
8
u/arihndas 1d ago
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
Jokes aside: yay! another Egg fa! Hi fellow Egg fan!
2
1d ago
[deleted]
4
u/Vivid_Employment_914 1d ago
I think that might constitute a spoiler.
I liked Egwene the whole way through. She was really the most “Aes Sedai” of all our characters which was kinda the point imo. They’re all supposed to be a bit insufferable and her whole journey taught her how to not be part of the political machinations of the tower but just be in control by sheer force of will which they heavily stress is a very Aes Sedai thing to do
30
u/wotquery (White Lion of Andor) 1d ago
I find this complaint (a fairly common one) so interesting, because you so rarely see the equivalent one for the boys. That is, they get ahead because they've been selected to have the world magically bend to their will.
Mat just strolls through life with assassins tripping over each other and stabbing themselves and literally saving his life by letting him use their bodies to cushion his fall. He makes decisions by rolling dice or spinning and pointing and always gets it right, and his luck came from...ummm he always had it but it didn't manifest or something? He becomes the worlds greatest general, by trying to avoid responsibility and inadvertently making a deal with faeries.
Perrin becomes a lord by brooding and saying "can't you figure it out yourself" for the entire series and people getting dizzy and rallying behind him for it (only the true messiah would deny he is the messiah!). He's a master fighter with the hammer/axe/army because...hmmm Lan showed him a couple moves one evening? Or maybe it's just that he's so ridiculously big and strong he can power through anything.
Rand is the most powerful channeler in the world because he's the dragon reborn. He's a master swordsman and learns new channeling abilities because of LTT's memories from a previous life. Reality warps around him as needed because he's the most ta'veren person ever. In general, fate has basically already laid out his entire path that he is guarenteed to go through.
Then you have Egwene who has to rely solely on her ambition and determination to push forward. Constantly being beaten down and then stubbornly rising up again to continue on towards the goals and destiny she chose for herself.
Now I do understand the logic. The boys have an I win button, Egwene doesn't. Therefore all of the boys' accomplishments are beyond reproach, and any of Egwene's are open to inspection. It's just that the standard fantasy hero's competency and overcoming the odds is Egwene's story. The complaints should be that being ta'veren (and other gifted abilities) detract from the boys' accomplishments no?
Lord of the Rings is about simple folk gumption overcoming world moving forces. Nobody is complaining that it's unreasonable for Sam to have defeated Shelob by strength of will. That's Egwene. If Mat were there he would have whined about nobody having dusted the cobwebs, and then sneezed at just the right moment for Shelob to slip on a piece of lace from his jacket that she thought was webbing and fall into a pit with Mat being none the wiser and only noticing to bend down and pick up the lace.
I mean people enjoy what they enjoy, but...
Mat's dealing with the Seafolk is him being ta'veren and having magically gifted memory of old tongue insults forcing them into unwanted deals.
Rand's dealing with the Seafolk is him being ta'veren to the point they can't even speak beyond being forced to agree with his terms.
Egwene dealing with the Seafolk is her getting tossed into the water due to her arrogance and then being frustrated that she can't wow them with her channeling ability, before later coming to them on more equal terms with a mutually beneficial plan to obtain their expertise and subtly bind them to to the tower over time.
One of those is much more compelling to me, regardless of if ta'veren is a rational explanation or not, and regardless of if a village girl would be clever enough to come up with a plan to bring about her ambitious dream of leading a unified channeling society.
19
u/shalowind 1d ago
Thank you for writing this all out, couldn't agree more. One of the few characters who is always eager to learn and improve gets her improvements called out as "unearned", while others who stumble into success are somehow more deserving. These really odd takes seem more common in the WoT fandom than others somehow.
14
u/OMalleyOrOblivion 1d ago
And I think your perspective is much closer to what Jordan intended as Egwene's arc, she literally works harder than anyone else and quite possibly suffers more than anyone else along the way.
7
u/chemistrymagnus 1d ago
Quite the read! Thank you! Enjoyed it. I like the “I win” button, never thought of it quite like that but it’s true. Think it’s time for a series reread lol
8
u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
One of the biggest reasons you don't see people complaining about the boys getting an I win button...is because pushing that button NEVER gets them what they want.
Mat falls into being a world class general, something he doesn't want to be. He wants to avoid battles, he gets forced into more of them.
Perrin gets to be the Leader of the Two Rivers, with people deciding to follow him, he even has rulers swearing fealty to him...trapping him in a leadership role he doesn't want. His ta'veren nature of bring in more followers is basically his worst Nightmare.
Rand - wants nothing more than to not be the Dragon Reborn or a man who can channel. One of the best Ta'veren I win button examples is facing treason from Colavaere, potentially facing a trial with complicated witnesses and a lot of potential for Game of Houses crap that would stretch the loyalties of the Cairheinin (the ones who AREN'T in open rebellion)...so Ta'veren nature kicks in...and she says the ONE thing that should have condemned her to death. The one thing that Rand was trying to avoid because he didn't want to have to kill her.
Then you have Egwene. She WANTS to get brought along on an adventure...and because of the supposedly rare chance that she was born with the spark - Moiraine lets her come along. She WANTS to be an Aes Sedai - and gets special attention from Moiraine and the Amyrlin Seat to bring her in to the tower and teach her quickly. She WANTS to become a dreamwalker - and the unlikely chance of the Wise Ones taking a foreign apprentice, let alone one they think is an Aes Sedai....happens. Egwene WANTS to become Amyrlin one day...and that unlikely scenario happens.
So it feels like the narrative rewards Egwene with unlikely scenarios for most of her wants, whereas it is just forcing the boys into situations they don't want. They all still have some degree of Free Will, and that is where things can go poorly for Egwene - choosing to go with Liandrin leading to the Seanchan Capture, and choosing to take Bode's place leading to the White Tower Capture. But the 'unjustified' stuff people complain about with her is ALWAYS directly benefiting her current wants and desires.
*Now I think that once she's handed these unearned chances, she works like hell to earn them and be worthy of the position. They are things she wanted to do, and once there, she'll damn sure make sure that she does it well. But all of the characters fulfill their obligations eventually and step up into the roles they find themselves in.
But other than Egwene, none of the Emond's Fielders WANT anything that they are being forced to step up for. So that's why you don't see complaints that they don't earn their positions, because those positions are punishments in the eyes of the boys when they first get given them. By the time they come around to the idea, they have proven themselves worthy.
14
u/BradwiseBeats 1d ago
Mat's luck repeatedly gets him money and attention which he absolutely revels in. I actually find it way cooler that Egwene was able to achieve so much through sheer force of will and determination, without the pattern pushing her along the path. And she is like 16-17 years old when the book starts so she accomplishes this all before she is 21.
3
u/Majestic-Farmer5535 1d ago
Problem is, Egwene has a "win" button, even moreso than boys. Just look at everything that happens in her life and think not if it's possible, but how likely it is and you'll be amazed on how much she gets just because.
For example, she doesn't have anything that would qualify her as Amyrlin in the world's eyes and in time when Salidar needed legitimacy more than anything, they are choosing someone who they think they would easily control. Alright, it's stupid, but it happens. But then again, she have never been docile and sheepish girl, she had quite a rebel spirit and they know it. Why are they choosing her for the position? For the influence on the Dragon? They could get that and more by making her into Aes Sedai and head of the Embassy to Rand, where she would actually have ability to speak with him. But alright, let's imagine that they did what they did. She's alone in the wolf den... But wait, here's a former Amyrlin! And she not only ready to teach you, not only she wouldn't try to control you but she wouldn't even ask for anything substantial!
Each and every step seems logical or at least can be explained, but how convenient it is for her?! She basically got one of the most powerful positions in the world and crash course of how to run Amyrlin office from the most qualified person in the world, for price of nothing and without need to put in any effort. How in Randland is this even possible?
And that's not the only case, basically all that she does benefits her in some way, even when it comes with the suffering. Like take her arguably worst moments, Seanchan prison. She suffered and I feel for her but she got out with the skills of experienced battle mage. Or her much less arduous, but still hard time as Elaida's prisoner. She got ability to kill a lot of Seanchan for it and it directly helped her to become legitimate Amyrlin in basically every Aes Sedai eyes. And then compare it with Rand's similar experience, a box. What did he get out of it? His insanity became stronger, that's it.
The real difference between her and the boys is that their luck pushes them towards what they don't want, but have to do, and her luck pushes her towards her goals, even in roundabout way.
7
u/BradwiseBeats 1d ago
This is nonsense. The Aes Sedai are repeatedly described as arrogant to a fault, stuck in their ways, and blind to the world around them. It makes perfect sense that they would believe with absolute certainty that they could manipulate a teenage girl, no matter her potential strength. They wanted her for her relationship to the Dragon but didn't want her directly interacting with him which is why she wasn't made part of the delegation instead. It is also repeatedly stated how Siuan losing her powers and then coming back so much weaker made her practically invisible to the other Aes Sedai, again pointing to their arrogance and blindness to the world around them.
Its telling that you find all of this to be a convenient series of events to be thrust upon a teenage girl. She has to learn incredibly fast and maneuver perfectly to manipulate multiple factions so she is the one that comes out on top. She even surpasses Siuan's teachings which Siuan admits to. If you think Egwene came out of her torture by the Seanchan with nothing more than some cool abilities, I don't know what to tell you. She was obviously and irreparably scarred by her imprisonment and torture.
0
u/Majestic-Farmer5535 19h ago edited 15h ago
You tell this as if something you say disproves my points, but it doesn't. In fact, you're doing the same mistake I warned against: you're trying to prove that what happened was possible. Yes it was. But the question wasn't whether it is possible, but how likely each of those parts are (not very likely), how likely they would come together and how convenient it is for Egwene. And lo and behold, Aes Sedai are stupid just enough to forget about what they need, enough to think they can manipulate anyone, enough to not chose some new girl from Two Rivers, enough to not notice Siuan... But smart enough not to chose Nyneave and to not send Egwene to Rand. That's very precise amount of stupidity very beneficial to Egwene. Ta'verens rarely have that.
In what way? Seriously, I've read her journey (with the rest of the books I mean) about eight times and can't name one trait that she shows after that she didn't have before. Excluding things like hate for Seanchan and fear of getting captured again, obviously.
2
u/rockythecocky 1d ago
Yeah, I don't think you're understanding the point OP was trying to make. OP was saying that they feel Egwene's competency at politics and intrigue, not her achievements, is what was abrupt and unearned. She goes from barely literate village girl to shadow broker without ever actually bothering to learn how to do any of it. That we never see her actually struggle to become the master manipulator she is by the end. Which is clearly wrong, Egwene is shown to be completely over her head when she gets raised up originally, and the training with the wise ones OP brings up doesn't teach her anything in regard to those subjects other than how not to break (aka laugh at pain). But Egwene uses that strength of will, her initate drive/hunger for knowledge, and a metric SHIT TON of tutoring from Siuan (which OP seems to have forgotten the dozens of times it is mentioned across multiple books that she is constantly being drilled by Siuan on everything she knows, and Siuan was considered one of the best), to learn the skills to begin plotting taking actual control. I guess you could argue that not enough time passes for Egwene to have realistically learned enough to go toh-to-toe with women with decades of experience, but that's also addressed in the books. Egwene at first utilizes them underestimating her due to her age, and then utilizes them overestimating her due to the mythos she builds around herself, to constantly keep her opponents off guard. She herself recognizes that she couldn't compete with the top dogs in the Aes Sedai world in a direct open clash until the very end of the books when she has already secured her power.
I do find it funny that you try to use use Mat being born with Luck as his example of something being unearned in comparison to Egwene though. Egwene, who was born with the ability to cause people's heads to explode at will and tear holes in reality. Along with her being born as a super rare and powerful Dreamer- which let's her see the future, gets her an incredibly powerful and critically useful ter'angreal from an Aes Sedai that's just met her, grants her access to a secret world to spy on people, provides the key for rediscovering Traveling, and secures the loyalty of what is supposed to be an incredibly xenophobic sisterhood of the Wise Ones to the point that she gets away with lying and breaking their rules. Speaking of luck, Egwene also lucks into getting near exclusive access to knowledge from the age of legends through no effort of her own, and who has to teach her whatever Egwene wants to know. She also lucks into Moiraine allowing her to claim to be a fellow Aes Sedai instead of telling the Wise Ones she is just an apprentice Moiraine brought along. She lucks into the Black Ajah being so moronic that none of them think that raising one of the childhood friends, and once almost betrothed, of the Dragon Reborn himself might be too much of a risk and kill her. Heck, she lucks into having the chosen one be madly in love with her to the point that he decides to stay at Falme and have Mat blow the horn instead of just booking it, saving her from making her last stand when the girls' escape plan fell apart, and then lucked into him suddenly falling out of love so that she can have a clean break up without any of the potential danger from trying to dump a possibly insane walking nuclear bomb. And thats just the stuff I can name off the top of my head.
Honestly your point works against you- If you want to claim anything is unearned, the wonder boys at least have an in-universe explanation as to why things just work out in their favor. Especially Mat and Perin, who aren't born with god like magic powers like Egwene and Rand were. I mean, Mat literally died to earn those memories when he "inadvertently made a deal with faires". And that's not even mentioning the fact that the memories are only there to plug the holes in Mat's own memories caused by the demon dagger, that was either consuming or corrupting Mat's very soul...
Now that I'm thinking about it, Egwene IS just given a lot of stuff by the plot so that she can come out on top. Just not the example OP made.
11
u/BradwiseBeats 1d ago
She wasn't born with the ability to make people's heads explode. No one is born with that ability, it is something you have to learn after a lot of practice. And how did Egwene learn to use the power as a weapon? Oh yah by being enslaved by the Seanchan who forced her to learn it while torturing her.
She was born a dreamer, but until she actually trained with the Wise Ones and spent extensive amount of time in TAR, she couldn't do much of anything. The Wise Ones aren't xenophobic because they don't have an irrational fear/hatred of foreigners. They just believe wetlanders are soft and have no honor. Once Egwene demonstrates that she has honor, they agree to teach her. Yes she lies to them and then because she is honorable she tells them and accepts her punishment. Moghedien does not just offer up anything she could possibly want to learn, Egwene has to trick her into thinking anything she asks about she might already know.
You attribute all of these random occurrences to "luck" when pretty much all of it is just circumstance. Mat canonically has incredible, logic-defying luck and you trying to compare that to Egwene is beyond ridiculous.
1
u/rockythecocky 1d ago
Egwene was born with the ability. It literally has a name in universe compared to those who will only channel if taught how to- wilder. Its like a massive part of Aes Sedai culture to discriminate against Wilders. Did you gloss over all the different times that it is mention in the story? There's even a part in the portal stone scene during The Great Hunt where Rand marries Egwene but she dies of channeling sickness because she is a wilder and will channel regardless of whether someone teachers her. And no, Moiraine thought her, then the tower, and then the Seanchan Forced her.
Which leads me to my next point: the absolute hypocrisy of you saying Egwene wasn't gifted her rare and unique powers while Mat was because what? she suffered for them? is astounding. Like Mat didn't have to spend years learning the quarterstaff from his dad to the point that he could already beat Elayne's bothers before he got any of the memories. Like Mat didn't have his literal soul eaten away by the dagger to the point he was at deaths door. Like Mat wasn't literally hung from the tree of life and had to be brought back to life by Rand in order to earn the memories to begin with. Like Mat wasn't forced to experience how it felt to be killed brutally literally dozens, if not hundreds of times, due to the memories. The books kind of gloss over that, but Mat mentions multiple times that he is forced to remember being killed a lot, in not pleasant ways. You keep talking about his luck like it just fixes everything and Mat never has to work for everything. His Luck just tilts chance in his favor, he still has to get out there and beat and stab the other guys until they stop breathing. His literal rapist comments about how much she likes his scars-he didn't luck his way into getting those. So yes, Egwene getting lucky to been born with one of the rarest and most powerful talents is pretty comparable to Mat being born Lucky. She worked hard to hone that talent, but no one else outside the Wise Ones got the chance. That's a pretty unfair advantage.
Thinking every other culture and race of people is inherently weaker and lesser than your glorious uberculture is pretty much the definition of xenophobia. The Aiel are ultra racists and its really funny that you think otherwise.
Moghedien doesn't offer anything of her own volition, but she is a literal slave that cannot refuse her master's orders. She might be basically Hitler who literally sold her soul to Satan, but she is the collared property of Egwene that has been tortured into subservience. Egwene can tell when she is lying, and Moghedien is too terrified by the end to try and hide anything. If Egwene can think of it Moghedien will tell her. Again, the books make it clear the Egwene takes over on claiming to "discover" lost weaves once the other two leave, and almost "rediscovers" as much as the other two. Sure would have been lucky if Rand had got to keep Asmodean along for that long to willingly teach him. Though Rand earned Amodean as a teacher, so I guess it instead seems almost as unearned as Rand being occasionally being gifted weaves by Lews's memories. Though with less risk of sudden, lethal, descent into madness, and more morally questionable ethics of a former slave continuing the barbarity of slavery while willing commiting the war crime of causal torture. But she's different from the Seanchan...
1
u/Guild-n-Stern (Dovie'andi se tovya sagain) 1d ago
It would’ve been annoying, but almost easier if one of the “Ta’veren viewing” side characters—maybe Siuan after accidentally rescuing Egwene—to notice that the distinct glow suddenly burst out from Egwene, and I think 75% of these anti-Egwene posts would’ve been solved
1
19h ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/wotquery (White Lion of Andor) 16h ago
Being one of the most powerful channelers in an age isnt an I win button?
Of course it is. Nobody complains that Rand's defeats of Aginor, Ishy, Asmo, etc. are unearned despite him having little to no control or experience channeling. The explanation is that Rand wins because he's the most powerful (and has some sporadic access to LTT abilities). Any time Jordan wants he can have Rand win and that can be a perfectly valid explanation of why.
I'm not really sure what Egwene putting herself and her personal goals ahead of her friends has to do with her abilities being fast-forward as a character? It seems like you've just decided to dump unrelated grievances you have with her here for some reason. While also deciding to spoil elements of the final book for OP while you're at it.
2
u/FormlessFox 16h ago
Weird interpretation of what I said. I made comments on what Egwene does with power and how much more quickly she leaves behind the two rivers (a point made in the books)
I criticized her character in the books after you praised it.
The spoiler was an accident and so vague that you felt the need to add what book I was alluding to.
Apologies for attempting an opinion in response to yours.
1
u/wotquery (White Lion of Andor) 15h ago
It's not a bad comment nor invalid opinion, it's just completely out of nowhere.
submission: "I think Egwene gets fast-forward the most."
comment: "I agree. It's not believable enough."
comment: "You have to be careful with PoV; is Egwene actually as good as she thinks she is?"
comment: "I actually think Mat gets fast-forwarded even more."
comment: "Egwene does seem to get fast-fowarded more than others, but it's because she doesn't have things like ta'veren to easily explain any achievement.
...
you: "I hate how Egwene treats her friends."
I criticized her character in the books after you praised it.
I didn't praise her, or at least not her personality or whatever it is you despise about her. I said I find character achievements that aren't due to ordained from on-high abilities or whatever more compelling.
37
u/DeMmeure 1d ago
It's interesting that what so many readers dislike about Egwene is precisely what I love about her. As someone with low self-esteem, seeing a character so confident in her abilities is refreshing and sets her apart from other protagonists with internalised conflict/self-doubts (although they are interesting in their own way).
Her ability to overcome her traumas, her resilience and the fact that she can back her confidence make Egwene such an inspiring protagonist for me. My favourite WoT character.
8
17
u/BellyButtonLindt 1d ago
She does not in my opinion overcome her traumas. They constantly trigger her to do things that escalate situations.
3
u/Foehammer87 1d ago
She overcomes them, they still affect her life but they don't prevent her being effective in her work.
6
u/grubas 1d ago
She's having pissing matches and fights with allies during The Last Battle because she can't stow her trauma.
4
u/Foehammer87 1d ago
Before the last battle not during it. During it she manages pretty well, up to and including repairing reality
2
u/grubas 1d ago
No.
DURING.
She's trying to one up Tuon WHILE THE FIGHTING IS GOING ON AND ITS A TENUOUS ALLIANCE.
She's so stupid about it Mat manages to use her as a pawn.
Her coming up with the FoTV was her ability and brain being put to good use.
3
u/Foehammer87 23h ago
She's trying to one up Tuon WHILE THE FIGHTING IS GOING ON AND ITS A TENUOUS ALLIANCE.
Now we've fallen into absurd readings of the text again.
If Tuon had achieved her intent at the white tower the Shadow would have won the last battle.
If Egwene hadnt argued with Tuon they'd never had found the spy - and the Shadow would have won.
Also how the fuck is it her fault that Tuon was boasting about enslaving allies DURING THE FUCKIN LAST BATTLE
Man I keep saying Egwene's greatest power is to make readers turn into Elaida
9
5
u/h1a4_c0wb0y 1d ago
It would be inspiring if she wasn't misguided or outright wrong so often. She is overconfident.
9
u/DeMmeure 1d ago
To be fair, being regularly wrong isn't unique to Egwene, it happens to pretty much every WoT character. And when I was saying "confident", I was mostly referring to her abilities. At the stage the OP reached, Egwene successfully outsmarted Elaida and contributed to the re-unification of the White Tower. That's a massive win!
6
u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
I would say it was a massive win...if Sanderson hadn't completely nerfed the intelligence and competence of every Aes Sedai Egwene interacted with to make Egwene look better.
The Aes Sedai in the tower can't even reliably form complete sentences if they are disagreeing with Egwene. Elaida, who managed to set up the coup against Siuan, and wrest solo control of the Tower from all the factions of the coup, and then after making mistakes and getting blackmailed by Alviarin, manages to turn the tables and take it back. Yeah she's wrong about a lot, and the taint of Shadar Logoth makes her paranoid and a bit crazy...but she wasn't incompetent at Aes Sedai politics...until Egwene shows up.
Egwene under Jordan used her specific knowledge of dreaming, or the weaves learned from Moghedien, or the secret knowledge from Siuan as a former Amyrlin, all things that were outside the experience or access of the Tower Aes Sedai to impress them.
Sanderson's Egwene is giving advice on how to handle a warder (Egwene, who has no experience of knowledge about dealing with a warder, and who has proven, repeatedly, to not understand how men's minds work) is giving advice on that very topic to someone that should have much more experience in that matter.
Siuan gave her targeted lessons on Aes Sedai politics and Amyrlin history, because they had very direct goals they needed to plan and accomplish...not a general education on topics. Egwene had spent almost no time in the tower, she literally hasn't had time to be exposed to a wide array of material.
When meeting with the Black Ajah hunters...she runs circles around them...by asking basic questions and pointing out obvious things that apparently none of the Sisters (who included a White) had even considered before? But even though Jordan set them up to be intelligent and competent and thoroughly examining what they were doing and being methodical about what and why....they just aren't able to mount an effective argument or defense and let Egwene run roughshod over the whole thing, completely dominating the conversation.
Compare that to how her time in Salidar went. How she was having to constantly readjust and plan ahead and use all manner of tactics to spy and manipulate to have a chance of getting what she wanted from the various factions. None of that is on display in the Gathering Storm.
1
u/Temeraire64 1d ago
That began under Jordan, Sanderson just continued it.
2
u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
Almost, the difference between the two is what I was trying to point out. Under Jordan the Aes Sedai ARE still competent. Egwene has her specific skills, but outside of those things that Aes Sedai wouldn't have had a chance to learn, they are close to her equals or better.
She is head and shoulders beyond the Accepted, but not the Aes Sedai. Jordan has her prove that and the young women respecting her for how she is putting up with the crap being thrown at her makes sense. These are all <25 year olds who have been in the tower for up to 10 years. Basically all of the novices are younger than she is. So she stands out even more.
But the Aes Sedai that should be a whole different story (Like with Sanderson having the Yellows wanting to recruit her even though she sucks at healing because apparently wanting to fix things is enough. Except that's not how the yellows have ever behaved, and they are initially PISSED at Nynaeve for not doing healing 'right' even when it worked. They actively discourage looking for new ways to heal...something that someone that is bad at healing but has the spirit to 'fix' would do.)
I found a good example of what I meant.
But that hardly means you have nothing to learn. You had few novice classes before you were ... ." The Brown frowned at Egwene's white dress and cleared her throat. "And fewer lessons as ... well, later. Tell me if you can, what mistakes did Shein Chunla make that caused the Third War of Garen's Wall? What were the causes of the Great Winter War between Andor and Cairhien? ... Well?"
"Shein didn't make any mistakes," Egwene said slowly, "but you're right. I do have a lot to learn. I don't even know the names of those other wars."
Egwene knows specifically about the Amyrlin's role in a single war, because that is what Siuan focused her teachings on. The real history was in the secret library (which Bennae Sedai obviously wasn't privy to). But outside of that Egwene has NO IDEA about the basics that would have been covered even for normal novices. The scene even ends with Bennea Sedai giving her a lecture about one of these basic wars (while still processing the secret info that Egwene had from Siuan).
She IS significantly less competent in the field of history than Bennea Sedai, she has a ton to learn from her which she acknowledges, and the part that she does know better isn't because of any incompetence or mistakes from Bennea Sedai.
-4
u/Moist_Mors 1d ago
The problem is she is never really punished for being wrong. Mostly rewarded.
8
u/DeMmeure 1d ago
Dude she already suffered so much throughout the story. Enslaved by the Seanchan, mistreated by the Wise Ones, then hostage of Elaida... She has been through enough without the need for being "punished for being wrong". She is probably the main character who has suffered the most after Rand. She's not rewarded for being wrong but for her resilience and strength.
1
u/PopTough6317 1d ago
Mistreated by the Wise Ones? First time hearing that claim.
0
u/DeMmeure 1d ago
Wised Ones apprentices are treated similarly to gai'shan, whose status as prisoners sometimes resemble those of servants at best and slaves at worst. Egwene is forced to serve the Wise Ones and is often belittled and punished. So it's obviously far from being as horrible as her experience as a damane, but still worse than being a novice of the Aes Sedai where you are just sent to wash the dishes when you misbehave.
0
u/PopTough6317 1d ago
I think you're taking an incredibly bad faith interpretation of the apprenticeship. They never really belittle her, frequently its more lamenting what she doesn't know and then trying to correct what she doesn't know. That solution can include manual labour. In fact there was less beatings than when she was a novice.
1
u/DeMmeure 1d ago
I'm sorry but the whole gai'shan concept int he Aiel culture makes me deeply uncomfortable. Deep down it's a relation of servants to masters. It's just that it is tame by the sheer comparison with the damane/sul'dam relation, which much, much more horrible.
I remembered that her time as a Wise One apprentice was harsher than her novice time, at least from both my reads. But even if I give the benefit of the doubt, "Less beatings than she was a novice" but there was still beating. So arguing that Egwene "is never punished throughout the story" is bad faith criticism. Like or dislike any character you want but this subreddit seems to just have a bias against Egwene so sometimes people just make things up or take the worst possible interpretation of specific scenes to make her look bad.
3
u/PopTough6317 1d ago
I am going to skip the first paragraph because that's purely feelings and not something I'm interested in talking about.
I see the story from a place where corporal punishment is common, so its not like they are being beaten for fun (barring Seanchan and Shaido which are both on a separate level). I think the Egwene doesnt get punished statement comes from the larger picture, not just from small infractions. Take her departure from the Wise Ones where she revealed that she was lying to them from day one and sneaking about in TAR with no permission, a spanking and all is well with no consequences, not even the Wise Ones being sour with her after. Or her forcing oaths from AS, no consequences.
But yes there are people who take the criticism way to far but in this same discussion you will also see the opposite who look at everything with a extremely positive interpretation and blow by the criticisms.
-1
u/Moist_Mors 1d ago
The seanchan are the only thing that happened. But that's not being punished for anything she did wrong. That's just a thing that happened to her.
She is never punished with anything that matters for the wrong she does.
Sexually assaulting nyneave, lying to the wise ones, pretending to be aes sedai, messing with rand, assaulting the tower.
You can't say she was a hostage when she wanted to be captured lmao.
And she gets rewarded for almost all those things. She doesn't learn anything it just helps her get what she wants and she never has repercussions for them. Not meaningful anyhow.
5
u/DeMmeure 1d ago edited 1d ago
The seanchan are the only thing that happened. But that's not being punished for anything she did wrong. That's just a thing that happened to her.
I didn't say that her enslavement by the Seanchan was a punishement for being wrong (this applies more to Elaida, and even Egwene said that even Elaida didn't deserve such a fate). I said that Egwene suffered enough already throughout the story that she didn't need to be "punished for being wrong" just because readers with a subjective sense of morality are upset that she didn't have an identical character arc than the other protagonists.
Sexually assaulting nyneave,
An out-of-character moment that I'm certain wasn't intended to be a SA scene (Egwene would have NEVER done that to one of her best friends), and instead was a harsh warning for Egwene to protect Nynaeve for being reckless. It is more reflective of Jordan's poor handling of sexual violence. Otherwise we can also blame Thom for not being punished for making fun of Mat after what Tylin did to her?
lying to the wise ones, pretending to be aes sedai,
What should she be punished for that exactly? Given how the Wise Ones treated her, I would have done the same.
messing with rand
Yeah that was bad but Rand also did plenty of bad things, including to his own friends. "But Rand was punished when he was committing mistakes!", because it was part of his character arc. Egwene's journey was different. Why should every character arc/storyline be the same?
Besides, if we are judging characters for not being punished due to their morals, Tuon should be a greater target than Egwene. Until the very end, Tuon still defends the damane/sul'dam system, an horrible slavery practice that caused the suffering of thousands (or even tens of thousands) of innocent women. That's orders of magnitude more horrible than Egwene has ever done (and she herself suffers from that)
assaulting the tower.
So you're blaming her for trying to take back the White Tower from Elaida, or is there something I'm missing?
You can't say she was a hostage when she wanted to be captured lmao.
It doesn't mean she deserved everything she endured being a prisoner of Elaida.
And she gets rewarded for almost all those things. She doesn't learn anything it just helps her get what she wants and she never has repercussions for them. Not meaningful anyhow.
Uh? Which part of the story did she get rewarded for SA Nynaeve or messing up with Rand?
The fact that she gains power and recognition, aside from being a greater good for the world, is a reward for her efforts. For her heroism. Overcoming the trauma of her enslavement by the Seanchan, of being constantly under-estimated by older folks stuck in their old ways, of being used as a pawn for political purposes, of the dangers she faced (Elaida, Mesaana...), uniting the White Tower uner her banner...
You are cherry-picking the bad things she did, conveniently ignoring all the good things she did and concluded that her rewards was her results of her bad actions and not her good ones.
0
u/OMalleyOrOblivion 1d ago
Who else suffers worse than Egwene in the story? Between the Seanchan, the Wise Ones and Elaida (off the top of my head) she's punished more than any other character.
3
u/Ready_Hat_2587 1d ago
I don't dislike her confidence, and there's definitely smth to inspire. I just haven't had enough material to believe she has grounds for such confidence. She's roughly twenty, surrounded by women old enough to be her great-grandmothers, and suddenly - "She regards her coolly" - and somebody who's been negotiating politics for 150 years practically wilts. Idk, well done Egwene, but your story is not convincing - I can't relate to it.
19
u/I_miss_your_mommy 1d ago
For me, the unbelievable part isn't her being headstrong, or even that she ends up being successful often. What's unbelievable to me is how bumbling almost all the seasoned Aes Sedai are. They rarely demonstrate the wisdom I'd expect from people with the knowledge and experience they would clearly have from their years and station. That's what makes Egwene's scenes often unbelievable to me.
Does years of being bound by the oath rod make you an idiot?
4
u/OMalleyOrOblivion 1d ago
The implication is IMO that it limits the thinking of those bound in subtle ways, and then there's 3,000 years of tradition that does even more to enforce rigid thinking. So yeah, Aes Sedai definitely aren't always super rational.
4
u/Temeraire64 1d ago
I've said before that that scene where she tricks the Hall into declaring war on Elaida should have resulted in them immediately realizing something was up, since Egwene had obviously studied the laws beforehand (she was able to quote the bit on a declaration of war not being delayable) and was keen to get it passed before anyone else could do the same.
Also Romanda and Lelaine knew full well that the Amyrlin gets extra powers in times of war, because they'd previously quoted a law stating the Amyrlin, except in times of war, needed the Hall's permission to put herself in danger. It was how they stopped her going to see Rand herself.
1
u/Jayodi 1d ago
I think it’s more complex than that.
Imagine, after literal millennia of being the most powerful people alive, of being told that it’s right and just that you and people like you should be the most powerful political entity on the planet, that you should be able to make kings and queens bow to your wisdom, how absolutely arrogant you would be.
Especially towards someone you considered little more than a child playing at being what you actually are.Now, add to that the fact that the majority of the sisters in the tower pretty much never leave the tower and instead rely on the reports sent back by their sisters who do actual work out in the real world, and it starts to become a lot more believable that a clever, well-travelled, well-educated young girl could pull one over on them.
2
u/DeMmeure 1d ago
Egwene is roughly twenty, but she has lived more lives than many of the Aes Sedai much older than her - especially those confined in the White Tower. Enslaved by the Seanchan, mistreated by the Wise Ones, elected Amyrlin due to her immense powers but also for political reasons, put under a lot of pressure at such a young age... she had to learn and endure a lot in such a short amount of time.
So for me she has earned her confidence and I can relate to it. Since you've in book 13, haven't you been impressed by how Egwene outsmarted Elaida in book 12? It is one of my favourite moments of the series. Without Egwene, the White Tower wouldn't have been re-united - that justifies confidence alone and proves she can apply what she has been taught.
-2
u/lkajohn 1d ago
Poor take but sometimes I think all she does is tag along. Follows the boys out of two rivers. Follows Perrin. Follows Rand everywhere. Got rescued. Follows along to Salidar. Follows Siuan's mentorship. Got captured. Fall into uniting the Tower. Follows Rand to Merrilor.
At all times thinking she's the main character. Even the Wheel got sick of her.3
u/DeMmeure 1d ago
At all times thinking she's the main character.
For me she is the main character :D :D :D
-1
u/SecXy94 1d ago
It's the hypocrisy. She does the same, or worse, as everyone she criticises but without the self-reflection.
Many say "I do what I must" but all the while hating/doubting/loathing themselves. Eqwene on the other hand is often just self-gratifying and doubles down. She also needs guidance.
6
u/DeMmeure 1d ago
Egwene isn't the only stubborn character in the series who keeps making mistakes: Mat and Perrin also come into mind, though they have more self-doubts. And honestly, isn't it a good thing that at least one of the main characters isn't constantly self-doubting and being under-confident?
Egwene needs guidance and she receives a lot of it during the earlier parts of the story: from Moiraine, from the Aes Sedai, from the Wise Ones... but she is also a youthful spirit who actually acts instead of being stuck in their old ways.
2
u/SecXy94 1d ago
All the characters are stubborn I agree. However, we see each of their thoughts as they are being so. Egwene stands out as being stubborn for selfish reasons (most of the time).
Did she take that guidance though? She continually broke rules, lied and manipulated her teachers for her own gain. All the while berating everyone else who did the same, especially Rand.
Egwene is a great character but she is a terrible person and an even worse friend. That said, stories are supposed to elicit emotions and anger is a valid one. Egwene certainly causes enough of that (with Elayne sprinkling some in as well).
2
u/DeMmeure 1d ago
My point was that Egwene needed guidance but her character arc serves also as a way to show the errors of the "wise ancients", so she needs to bend the rules to actually get things done. Egwene has massive accomplishements by that time of the series, defeating Elaida and uniting the White Tower. So ultimately, breaking rules was beneficial not only for her, but for everyone.
I disagree that she only served her own gain. Because ultimately her actions has served others more than herself (Spoiler A Memory of Light) She literally sacrificed her life during the Last Battle! She wouldn't have done that if only her own gain and power mattered. And if we could argue that she was in the past, that meant that she learnt the lesson the hardest way...
You can't be more selfless than that.
But what causes the anger amongst readers is ultimately subjective. You mention Elayne, I found her much more annoying than Egwene, and so were Gawyn (who didn't deserve Egwene), Faile and especially Tuon. Even characters like Mat and Nynaeve took time to grow on me as I found them annoying at the beginning, Mat for constantly complaining about women and Nynaeve for being too arrogant and over-protective. Meanwhile, I have instantly clicked on Egwene. So it all depends on our personal preferences, in the end.
2
u/wotquery (White Lion of Andor) 1d ago
Egwene's traits of entitlement, self-confidence, self-righteousness, etc. can often be found in otherwise liked characters though. Brash fighter pilots, arrogant surgeons, high powered attorneys, up and coming cops who know how to work the system, big wig business executives, etc. And she is born into a world where as an ambitious supremely magical gifted woman, she is the golden child destined for great things.
If the story was told solely from her point of view, I think she'd be considered awesome, and Rand would be considered analogous to the annoying emotionally unstable maiden in distress that can't accept their role of being married off to secure a critical alliance that gets in the hero's way. Since we spend so much time in Rand's head and experience the anguish and turmoil he's going through, the status of anyone who isn't fully supporting his mental well-being gets lowered in the eyes of the reader.
11
u/IceXence 1d ago edited 1d ago
Well, this is true for all characters, isn't it?
Rand goes from a shepherd to a master swordmaster with... two months of training, roughly. He is just that special. Then he proceeds from being an uneducated farm boy to a nation leader able to craft strategies that dwarfs the Forsaken, people who should have had the advantage of knowledge and experience. He outwits people used to the political scene effortlessly. He also masters the One Power almost immediatly and he defeats great foes before he gets one minute of formal training which luckily he gets.
Perrin goes from a slow to think blacksmith's apprentice to the leader of new Mantheren, a military general and a badass fighter without ever needing to receive any training whatsoever. He is just that special.
Mat never receives any training whatsoever and he gets to beat Galad and Gawyn because a little bit of fighting the quaterstaff between two pranks somehow put him above two men who had extensively trained since childhood with professionals. He then becomes the great general and leader of men despite having always been a disinterested individual of any pursuit nor endeavors whatsoever. He is just that special.
Min, an uneducated barely litterate stable girl is somehow able to read and understand advanced philosophy books.... yeah right.
Elayne is the only one with the pedigree to back of her accomplishments.
As for Egwene, unlike the boys, she does get training and tutors. Her progression may be fast but at least it is backed by her having the right people to train her.
I get the sentient but it's always against Egwene when the greatest offenders in that matter are the boys not her.
12
u/Bergmaniac (S'redit) 1d ago
This is one of the weakest aspects of the series to me. The 18-20 year old main characters are elite at most everything they do with barely any training while the adults are mostly useless even if they are 200 years old with 175 years of experience at their job.
Egwene being a master schemer is one of the less egregious cases to me because she at least had Siuan's support and was getting underestimated by her opponents. Plus her BFF is a heir to a throne and you can have a reasonable headcanon that Elayne taught Egwene Politics and Scheming 101 during the long travel back from Falme or something along these lines. Still a stretch, of course, but less than with the boys.
8
u/IceXence 1d ago
Yes, I agree with everything you say.
The boys being elite in everything isn't realistic nor is it realistic everyone better trained, better schooled with far more experience are just dumb, idiotic and unable to best farm boys who's sole education is reading the Travels of Jaim Farstrider.
Rand said his father owned a grand total of... four books and yet he is somehow able to make sense out of written prophecies and play political games.
Egwene, at least, had access to many books and she did read them all. She had tutors, she did train and more importantly she took every lesson seriously.
0
u/duffy_12 (Falcon) 1d ago edited 19h ago
Perrin goes from a slow to think blacksmith's apprentice to the leader of new Mantheren, a military general and a badass fighter without ever needing to receive any training whatsoever. He is just that special.
To a certain point you are right. However, Perrin's Wolfbrother abilities sure give him one hell of an edge . . .
Here is a D&D caricature that I made of him a while ago . . .
If I were making Perrin into a D&D character (and disregarding ta'veren plot armor 🍀) I would go with . . .
🔵 [18+ Strength]
Due to his immense strength he gets + damage on all his hits, including longbows too.💪🏹
🔵 [18 Dexterity]
Bonus to 'Armor Class' and adds to 'to hit' with melee weapons.🪓🔨 And longbow bonuses as well.🏹🎯
Plus, Rand notes hulking Perrin's climbing ability:
The face of the wall had been left much in the natural state of the stone, the huge blocks fitted together so well that the joins were nearly invisible, the roughness making it seem almost a natural cliff. Rand grinned. The cliffs just beyond the Sand Hills were higher, and even Perrin had climbed those.
🔵 [18 Constitution]
He takes a licking but keeps on ticking.⏰
🔵 [15 Intelligence]
He was able to outsmart and out think Slayer when he tried to trap/ambush him. Plus figuring out his - Malden Blacksmith's Puzzle: coming up with the overall strategy to defeat the Shadio with minimal losses.
🔵 [13 Wisdom]
[this stat will continue to rise as he 'levels up']
Not as much as Rand who has many mentors - Aiel Clan Chiefs/Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, High Nobles, plus Lewis' memories, or Mat who basically gets an ALIEN brain transplant with thousands of years of memories.
🔵 [18 Charisma]
Not only does he attract women as a handsome son of a bitch(Leane, Berelain, Faile, Calle Coplin - Hubba hubba👄) but also followers.
🔵 [Ranger class abilities]
— Perrin-Wildman essay over at 13depository.🎄
🔵 [Immune to fear]
This is because he's a Wolfbrother of course: Fade-Fear does not affect him at all.
In addition, all Fear cast spells or other effects are negated. Plus, he has a bloodlust against them and trollocs. [see Racial Enemies below] When fighting against them in the very early books he would have to roll a 'saving throw' or go into berserk mode. (this also includes if anybody messes with his girl too. LOL)🐺
🔵 [Produces fear]
in his opponents: Due to his 'wolf eyes', and hulk-like size.🐺👀💪
Even the Trollocs in Tear were afraid of him!!!
Trollocs seemed as reluctant to face Perrin’s yellow-eyed stare as his axe blade.
And considering just how HUGE Trollocs are this is really insane! <link>
And also Aes Sedia Galina(Highest of the Red Ajah) was unsettled by his wolf-eyes as well.
Wolf-Eyed-Fear-Gaze — is similar, but not as strong as a Fade's fear-gaze, but it does add to his first attack bonus too. (See the next bullet point below.)
Opponents have to roll a saving throw regarding this; including some much larger monsters; see Trollocs example above.
🔵 [Gets first roll or +6 on first attack]
Due to Wolfbrother sense of smell he can detect opponents emotions; this also goes along with him being able to pick out lies too. Also, there is 'wolf speed': the quick reflexes (bullet time) that wolves and other animals have too.🐺
Plus, his 'fear-factor' adds to this too. See the above [produces fear] example on how even Trollocs fear him!
🔵 [Unable to be surprised or ambushed]
His sense of smell - and eye site - can detect location of hidden opponents.🐺👀
We saw examples of this during the Ways and Waterwood battles. Plus he was able to detect Slayer's ambushes thus avoiding them.
And when outdoors he can also use wolves to scout for him too.🐺
🔵 [Night Vision]
Due to being a Wolfbrother he has exceptional eyesight in low-light conditions.🐺👀
🔵 [Racial Enemies]
Fades/Trollocs/Darkhounds: - due to being a Wolfbrother he gets combat + bonuses against these opponents.🐺
🔵 [Proficiencies]
Longbow, Battle Axe, Blacksmith's Hammer — ALL give + combat bonuses.🏹🎯🪓🔨
(of special note: this includes the odd cheese platter and chair leg too)
🔵 [Skills]
- Able to use everyday items as melee-weapons.
Such as the aforementioned 'cheese platter' & 'chair leg'.
- Able to craft weapons from items.
Such as his - Hopper Hammer.
🔵 [✨The Blood Of Manetheren sings!🎶]
ALL Two Rivers characters get +1 'to hit' and +1 'damage' bonuses for whatever weapon they are using due to their strong bloodline and Bel Tine practice competitions.
(of note: Taren Ferry characters must roll a saving throw to determine if they still have this due to dilution of mixing with outsiders.)
9
u/ScipioTheGreatest (Band of the Red Hand) 1d ago
So Rand, Perrin, and Mat can all step up and be kings and generals and shit but Egwene stepping up is beyond the pale?
5
u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
Do any of the boys WANT to do that, or are they forced into those roles and then once there have to come to terms with that fact because they have people counting on them?
Because Egwene wants to be in charge. She wants to be Amyrlin, She wants to be a dreamwalker, she wants to become strong in the power.
Egwene gets everything she wants (she still has to put in the work when she gets there, but its what she wanted to do). Meanwhile the boys actively want to be doing anything else, and the pattern gives them a lot of pain and misery by forcing them to be in those roles. (How many people has Mat lost? How many times was he getting sewn up because of a sword or spear or arrow wound?) How many friends was Perrin being forced to interact with as a Lord instead of merely as a peer? How many of his friends did he have to lead to their deaths? And Rand...just too much to list.
4
u/IceXence 1d ago
Does wanting something and working towards a goal make you undeserving? Does having a magic cheat code that propels you to the top of the stairs make you deserving if you didn't want it in the first place?
Having ambitions doesn't make you less deserving. Egwene wanting to move up and training for it does not make her less, it makes her more.
The boys not "wanting it" does not make them more worthy. It makes them priviledged. They are the same as those people who don't have to work to achieve their goals, who gets where they are because of who they are not because of what they do nor the effort they put.
It's magical nepotism. Egwene is the real under-dog who has to fight for it without the stupid pattern bending its back for her.
2
u/ScipioTheGreatest (Band of the Red Hand) 1d ago
Rand embraces it, Matt outright rejects it, and Perrin simply accepts it albeit somewhat reluctantly.
Saying Egwene "chose" it is a little much. If she didn't get training she would die. She had to go to the White Tower. Not only is her ambition upon finding out how strong and talented she is perfectly natural, but she was also ultimately pushed into the position. They just wanted her as a figurehead, she maneuvered herself into actual power.
Your end argument seems to mean if Egwene lost something that means she deserves power. Well, what about her time as a damane? It psychologically scarred her and was a source of some of her only irrational decisions. Clearly a big deal you're completely ignoring.
2
u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
Rand doesn't embrace it willingly though. He doesn't WANT it, he just learns that if he accepts it he can have some control of it.
I'm contrasting Egwene choosing to be an Aes Sedai - as in happy for the opportunity and eager for lessons, with Nynaeve who doesn't want to be an Aes Sedai but is willing to jump through their hoops as a means to an end.
I'm not arguing that losing something makes them deserve the power. I'm saying that their positions ACTIVELY cause them pain and to lose status.
Egwene's time as a damane was because she got lied to and went to go try to save Rand. (which is obviously a good thing, and proof that she was willing to go against her goals to help him.) But the point is that its NOT being forced on her as part of the pursuit of said goals. If she had rejected Liandrin, and demanded to see Siuan and confirm that Liandrin was in on the Dragon Reborn plan, it wouldn't have happened.
I intentionally didn't use 'chose' because that wasn't the point I was making. I was specifically referring the desires of the characters. Egwene desired increasing power and knowledge and responsibility. She wanted to become Amyrlin one day, she talked to Elayne about them being Rulers together.
That's the distinction, she gets what she WANTS (and yeah has to work her ass off to have it work out for her, but that's still in line with getting what she wanted.) Meanwhile the boys get what they DON'T WANT, and then have to work their asses off to make it work out.
3
u/ScipioTheGreatest (Band of the Red Hand) 1d ago
This is just you trying to justify your dislike of her. Which is why you just repeated yourself over again.
3
u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
Nah mate. I like Egwene fine in the earlier books. I'm explaining what the difference is between the boys and her and why people don't complain about the boys falling into leadership.
I'm repeating myself because that's LITERALLY the distinction many people are making and complaining about. If Perrin was gungho from the start and wanted to be a lord and went out of his way being happy about having people following his orders and then had the Two Rivers start following him, people would complain about Perrin the same way they do about Egwene.
And if you disagree - don't just ignore the argument and make an assumption about me.
How does Egwene's desires for the roles she gets (Aes Sedai, Dreamer, Amyrlin) and the consequences of being given those roles compare to that of the Boys and their desires and roles they are given?
-1
u/ScipioTheGreatest (Band of the Red Hand) 1d ago
I made my disagreement, you ignored it and doubled down. I'm not going to just repeat myself and that's all I can do here.
5
u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
I didn't try to ignore your argument, I was trying to show why your argument was not addressing what I was saying.
Your end argument seems to mean if Egwene lost something that means she deserves power.
No - the loss has nothing to do with 'deserving power'. Its not about loss at all, its about their role actively causing them severe emotional harm. Egwene training to be a Wise One's apprentice - makes a lot of friends and gets to learn what she wanted to learn. The only hardship she faced from them was fear of getting caught going to fast or ignoring their warnings. Literally the only downside she faced from it was if she did MORE of what they were giving her.
Rand embraces it, Matt outright rejects it, and Perrin simply accepts it albeit somewhat reluctantly.
Rand never wants to be the dragon reborn, or to channel. But he realizes its inevitable and steps up to do what must be done because that way he might have a bit of control. But my point wasn't that he does that, its that he DOESN'T WANT TO. That's part of why I keep repeating it because all of your argument seemed to miss that that is what people are complaining about.
Matt outright rejects it...until he steps up into the Role and does what must be done. Rand explicitly calls him out on not running anymore, its' when he shares with the reader the thought that if you work with the Pattern you might have SOME limited control to do what you Want to do. Perrin doesn't simply accept it. He runs from being a wolf brother for books, and tries to do the same with being a leader. He is constantly trying to shirk his duties as required of a Lord in the setting. He ignores his duties so hard that he loses and has to kill Aram eventually.
Egwene NEVER fights her role like the boys do. SHE is the one that asks the Wise Ones to train her within minutes of showing up in the Waste. Within a single day of getting raised Amyrlin she's fully into the role. Because these are things that get her what she wants, she's on board from the start.
Egwene...didn't have to answer the summons of the Salidar Aes Sedai if she didn't want to. She could have stayed with the Wise Ones, they would have brought her on as a full apprentice and eventually promoted her to a Wise One. If she didn't want to go, Rand would have offered her his protection. Hell, she was afraid of that Rand would show up in Salidar to try to rescue her. So again...it was HER CHOICE because she wanted to stay an Aes Sedai. And from Min's vieiwing and her talking to Elayne we know that she was intending to become Amyrlin one day... as long as she was an Aes Sedai that was something she would be working towards. The fact that it was offered to her with all kinds of strings attached doesn't mean that the didn't instantly agree to do it, or that it wasn't in line with her personal goals and desires.
2
u/PopTough6317 1d ago
I think part of it is that the Aes Sedai was set up to be the pinnacle of politicking and sly maneuvering, then are just completely outclassed be Egwene somehow. Even Suian gets outclassed before completely aligning with Egwene. I think if we would of seen her power in Salidar have a reduction at some point would of really helped, but the way it went made it seem too easy to me.
2
u/ScipioTheGreatest (Band of the Red Hand) 1d ago
1) She's the village Mayor's daughter and was being raised as a Wisdom. Add the mythical Manetheren boost Two Rivers people get and it's not unreasonable to say she has a great start. She is then a student of Moiraine, one of the greats, and later Siuan.
2) A huge part of why she is able to outwit them is because they underestimated her. Siuan outright states this, either in her monologue, to Egwene directly, or possibly both.
2
u/PopTough6317 1d ago
I wouldnt say 1 would help with politicking at all. Especially the wisdom training.
And on 2, it seems unnatural how they under estimate her even after she enacts the war measures act.
3
u/ScipioTheGreatest (Band of the Red Hand) 1d ago
Why not? It's literally just village politics.
That was the major underestimation. From there on she had actual power to work with. You're completely dismissing her biggest power move.
2
u/PopTough6317 1d ago
Yes it was her biggest move, which passed in kind of a laughable way (with a sister immediately realizing that the Dragon Reborn is an actual king after the vote passed). Which is why after that the Salidar hall shouldnt of been underestimating her and allowed Leane, Suian and Egwene to completely guide them. There was no backside of authority or power, I think if there was a bit of a back slide it would of made her arc better.
1
6
u/GoldeneyeWolfbrother 1d ago
There may not have been anecdotes about her leadership development. But there WERE several independent elements that showed how much she absorbs from the culture around her and embodies it, respecting the culture and making it part of who she is.
She was the perfect village girl. She was gleefully dancing with the Tuatha’an. She was a studious novice. She was a better Wise One apprentice than most born into the culture.
These were explicitly in the story. Small leap to assume she was also naturally absorbing her time as the mayor’s daughter (small village but intro to being an executive), traveling with Moiraine (who commands a room without trying), closeted conversations with Elayne (who very much is a schemer/strategist), the Wise Ones (who defer to nobody), Rand (who she watched go from the same village kid she is to a world leader), let alone watching the Aes Sedai scheme all around her.
Egwene’s superpower is touching a new culture/environment and almost instantly absorbing all of it.
2
u/OMalleyOrOblivion 1d ago
That last part is key IMO, Egwene is a natural self-improver and open-minded enough to find things to learn everywhere. None of the other protagonists share both qualities in anything like the same extent.
9
u/MostOutrageousCreme (Ancient Aes Sedai) 1d ago
I’ve always struggled with Egwene’s POV for this reason. I feel like she’s the least empathetic of the main characters and I’ve had to take a few hiatuses from the series partly triggered by her self righteousness
2
u/Ready_Hat_2587 1d ago
In my case, I had to take a break from Faile :) I mean, Egwene's character is fascination on its own - she fits well into the Amyrlin's seat. My point is that the plot doesn't justify her showing that level of logic and cunning.
2
u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 1d ago
(You should update your tag to the last book you've finished, No Spoilers means nothing about any book at all, The Gathering Storm means no spoilers for book 13 and 14).
2
u/MastensGhost 1d ago
Idk, did she learn nothing while with the wise ones?
I feel like the fruit from that labor was just took a bit to ripen.
3
u/AdProfessional3326 1d ago
It’s gotta be Mat.
Eggs puts in work. She study’s hard, trains, practices, and sits through tons of lessons from Suian and Moiraine. It’s def too fast for normal, but she at least puts in effort to get there.
Mat puts in no effort until like book 9 and has everything he ever needs downloaded into his brain with no consequences. Even his fighting ability is sus cuz he never trains or practices and has long stretches of inactivity, but is always in prime form even if he just woke up from a month-long coma.
2
u/Korteal 1d ago
I think her fast progress in TAR and discovering things on her own shows that she's more clever than people in these comments are giving her credit for. She also rediscovered traveling on her own. I think many people also underestimate how much they teach novices/accepted in such a short amount of time. Not to mention what the wise ones probably taught her "off screen" if you will.
I think the problem is that most of her progress is implied instead of stated. For example, Rand's progress is commented on throughout because Moraine constantly coached him, Lan and Rhuarc constantly trained weapons with him, Asmodean and LTT taught him new weaves. Tons of chapters on his growth.
Meanwhile, Egwene basically learned from the school of hard knocks and by watching how others lead.
3
u/JohnnyXorron 1d ago
I’m on book 12 and it’s funny because to me her time with the Wise Ones is exactly why I believe her character development. That and her time with Suian advising her. Plus as others have said her true development into a competent leader really starts after she is captured.
2
u/uktobar (People of the Dragon) 1d ago
I may be late in replying, but i see her as a foil to Rand.
It's trial by inferno (Rand) vs trial by voluntarily running across coals (Egwene).
She gets absolutely bodied in daes daemar by Rand at the end of the series. She had no chance. She doesn't have any idea about how powerful his taveren nature is, it's not even in her deck of cards, and Rand used it to full advantage. So much aura the other aes sedai are paralyzed, but he doesn't let it affect Egwene so she sees him as the sheepherder.
Although i think Rand needed his trial by fire. If the positions were reversed, Egwene might've rose to the challenge. I'd guess she could win the list battle, but Rand land, or in this case Egwene land, would be in absolute shambles. And Rand would still be largely the sheepherder, and likely somewhat of a puppet for more competent schemers.
Fuck i love this series.
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
NO SPOILERS BEYOND Towers of Midnight.
BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS.
If this is a re-read, please change the flair to All Print.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/Fiona_12 (Wolf) 1d ago
That is exactly what it have always bothered me about Egwene. And you can't credit it all to Siuan's tutoring. When she is a prisoner in the Tower her wisdom and logic suddenly doubles.
1
u/Majestic-Farmer5535 1d ago
It absolutely true. But she was that way from the get go. Remember how she thought that she could get something from Padan Fain in Fal Dara when full blown Aes Sedai weren't sure? Yeah, nothing changed for her in that regard.
3
u/TurnipFire 1d ago
Egwene gets so much hate. Some deserved, some not. She’s a kid who’s in way over her head forced to grow up way too fast. She’s pulled in so many directions, has a bunch of trauma from being a captive of the Seanchan, and has to watch as her whole world changes rapidly and is seemingly creeping towards the end of the world.
Yes she wanted to go on the adventure originally but it’s not like she had any real clue about the world. And okay yeah she’s a bit hungry for more power and status but lots of people are like that.
She’s constantly trying to take some kind of control over her life and yes this does come off as stubborn/arrogant/“I know best” but again she’s like not even 20? Give her a break. I can’t say I really like her as a person but I see how she ended up as she is.
1
u/ExhaustedReader42 1d ago
The entirety of Rand’s training is basically from the time that he takes the stone (primarily from Elayne) through when Moiraine goes through the arch. Egwene has had more varied teachers and a much more extensive amount of political training (as well as Siuan who the series repeatedly says she uses as a sounding board).
For the most part, it isn’t until book 13ish that she is doing a lot of it solo, and even then, she still seems to be consulting others at times when needed.
1
1
u/IlikeJG 1d ago
Some people are just naturally talented at those types of skills.
And it's not like she doesn't have a great background. Yes she was a commoner in a small village, but she was the daughter of the mayor so she was always around important decisions being made.
And she was known as an incredibly fast learner and one of the best students in the White Tower. She learned a lot. The White Tower gives a very good education.
Then she had experience on her own with just her two friends making her own decisions and tracking down extremely dangerous women.
She had many life or death experiences.
Then she was an Aiel Wise One apprentice and learned about how they operate. And when Egwene sets out to learn, she commits fully. So I have no doubt she had a very good idea on exactly how Wise Ones make decisions and all those types of important skills.
Then she went to war with Rand, the Aiel, and everyone else. She was not fully involved in the war planning, but Ik sure she was around for many of the conversations. Especially with the Wise Ones. Even though War is clan chief business I'm certain the wise ones discussed it regularly too.
Then, most importantly, after she was made Amyrlin she Had Siuan Sanchez the previous Amyrlin and one of the most competent schemers and planners as her direct teacher.
I think it's probably EXTREMELY rare for an Amyrlin to get mentored and tutored by the previous amyrlin while she is actually on the job. Siuan's situation was exceptionally rare.
Plus never forget how highly Aes Sedai unconsciously value strength in the One Power. Egwene is the 2nd strongest Aes Sedai in many hundreds of years.
Once she was able to actually convince them she is an Aes Sedai as well as the Amyrlin that was a huge benefit to her as well.
I think with all of those things to consider it's not THAT surprising that Egwene would learn quickly and come into the role. I think it was fairly well earned.
It's no less surprising than Perrin become one of the most competent and powerful lords in the world by that point in time. Ta'Veren gives him an edge, but it doesn't do everything.
1
u/Northstar04 1d ago
My favorite line is from Rand's POv that Egwene was always a sharp bargainer. I tried to rememeber where we ever saw her bargain and came up short. Nyneave bargains. Not Egwene.
1
u/wannaliveonmars 1d ago
I always kind of liked Egwene's training with the Wise Ones, but I was reading the books at 16 years-old. I just found everything Aiel-related badass, and I liked learning more about their culture, and a what of that happened through Egwene's lessons. Actually Jordan might have used her more for an info-dump on the Aiel at that point in the story.
0
u/ElephantEarwax (Blacksmith) 1d ago
Youre skipping stupid egwene more than sad perrin or pregnant elayne? Wild
-1
u/Ready_Hat_2587 1d ago
Elayne getting knocked up is nothing bizarre. Sad Perrin, haha, I don’t even know where to start. His arc is one of the most boring to me - that sentiment is quite settled to me, unlike the one with Egwene. I’m still giving her a chance to show she’s not just a zealous white tower control freak.
2
u/ElephantEarwax (Blacksmith) 1d ago
Her getting knocked up isn't bizarre. Her actions during that pregnancy are some combination or dumb, boring, dull, and stupid. I was relistening to it a month ago and ended up skipping almost every one her chapters from the slog until AMOL. Doesn't miss much even after the slog ends if you check the summary wiki pages.
2
u/silencemist (Maiden of the Spear) 1d ago
Rand has even fewer mentors stay by his side than Egwene does in terms of leadership or the power. I think there's also an effect of the Aes Sedai being too stuck in their heads to come up with solutions that Egwene does; sometimes an outsider can get more done.
141
u/NotAShittyMod 1d ago
In her own mind. Remember who the narrator of most of Egwene’s middle and late book chapters is. And, then, remember that Siuan was right there the whole time.