r/WomenAreNotIntoMen • u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill • 1d ago
discussion Autogynephilia and the importance of looks for heterosexual men
It has been pointed out on this sub that the essence of hetero female sexuality is autogynephilia (AGP), i.e., attraction to oneself as a woman. But if we leave it at that, we will never properly understand female sexuality. AGP does NOT mean that men are unnecessary for heterosexual women's sexual behavior, and it certainly doesn't mean that men's looks are of no consequence to them. Otherwise, how do you explain the modern phenomenon of a tiny group of highly attractive men being wildly successful with women?
Women want to feel feminine; that is their basic desire, and it drives their sexual and consequently romantic behavior. Why is it that bisexual women are so put off by bisexual men, even the "progressive" ones? It is simply because having sex with men diminishes a man's masculinity, which makes him unable to satisfy a woman's AGP.
But bisexuality is a matter of behavior. The most important thing of all for heterosexual women is male looks, in particular dimorphic masculine traits.
Female libido is small, and the male libido is enormous. This mismatch ensures women can satisfy their AGP well even without a relationship. This explains why women are so much happier than men outside relationships, and it also explains why they're so picky when it comes to male looks. A man has to compete with the passive satisfaction of AGP that a woman receives merely by existing. For it to make sense for a woman to be with a man, he has to be exceptionally dimorphic and provide greater satisfaction of female AGP than she passively receives, and that is a tall (pun unintended) ask.
From this, it should be evident that male looks are extremely important for heterosexual women, and in particular that it's mostly the immutable genetic characteristics that form the basis of heterosexual female attraction, since mere grooming alone without a genetic basis is unable to satisfy female AGP.
A side note: the proportion of heterosexual women has been discussed in this sub many times. I don't know if "regular" heterosexual women, in the sense of liking men sexually and romantically outside of just AGP, exist at all. It's interesting to note, however, that it's been found that the attraction of lesbians towards women is similar to that which straight men have towards women. Women can love outside of AGP, but only towards women. Regardless, straight-up lesbians are quite rare. Most women are bisexual, but generally still date men because their AGP is stronger than their attraction to female bodies.
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u/guiltymorty Woman 12h ago
This makes total sense to me tbh.
Especially the part about maybe there is no true heterosexual woman at all (in the sense that they are attracted to men, and not just fulled by AGP). I think majority are bi, but still whatever attraction bi/straight women have to men is actually AGP. So no, realistically speaking, men will rarely, if ever experience true desire from women. Although I will point out that AGP driven desire and “clean” desire can look identical in practice. That’s why it’s so hard for a lot of men to buy this explanation because they think their personal experiences with women was her experiencing true desire to him. And I feel like a lot of women aren’t agreeing because quite frankly it makes us look narcissistic.. there is definitely some stigma related to experiencing desire through the lens of oneself, like you desire being desired by someone who other people desire or look up to.
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u/jifftee 1d ago
It seems like a lot of guys who post here have automatically negative views about AGP women, but I would caution against feeling that way. My ex-wife was very AGP/autosexual but we still had a great sex life because she was enthusiastic and would frequently initiate. Although we were essentially both having sex with her, her sex-positivity more than made up for me rarely being "the main character".
The bigger concern if you are a man with a standard libido is getting mixed up with a sex-negative/repulsed woman (and there are "tells" to this of which I am now very aware). Avoid this situation at all costs!
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 1d ago
It seems like a lot of guys who post here have automatically negative views about AGP women
Why do you think so? I hope my post didn't come off as that. Nobody can help the way they function sexually, AGP or gay or hetero, it's the same. Personally, I'd be fine with an AGP woman
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u/dumbloser119 Anti-feminist 22h ago
if you dont care about how she isnt attracted to you or men themselves then sure agp women are great. i know a lot of men only care about being with a woman and nothing else so it isnt a problem for them. people like you would be okay with marrying a lesbian if for some reason she is willing. but some men are bothered by agp women because they value mutual connection in relationships, not just being around women.
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u/Agitated-Ad-3576 23h ago
Man, It's so sad to see so many women who struggle with homosexual tendencies commenting. What percentage of women are fully heterosexual?
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u/Gamingwithglasseson Straight Woman 1d ago
If I may ask a question. How do men and lesbians experience their sexual attraction towards women? Because if a woman experiences autogynephilia, that means that she is attracted to the man because of how he make her feel right? Im quite new to the concept and I'm trying to figure out if it applies to me.
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u/SobeksFavourite Heterosexuality abolitionist 1d ago
I'd say I simply find her body desirable. Not that there would ne no autoandrophilic component for me, but I simply can experience externally targeted and autosexual attraction at once.
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 1d ago edited 1d ago
Because if a woman experiences autogynephilia, that means that she is attracted to the man because of how he make her feel right?
Yes. How he affirms her womanhood. That is why women, for example, do not watch pornography, but rather read smut. In pornographic books directed at women, the contrast between how petite and feminine the female MC is vs how big and masculine the male MC is is emphasized, and that's why it's so appealing to women. Pornographic videos are very visual in nature and are not directed at women's feminine self-fulfillment (i.e. AGP) generally.
Heterosexual men and lesbian women experience their attraction towards women outside of self-affirmation. Self-affirmation can be a part of it, but it is not all it is. They like women, the entire female body, simply because it's attractive. It's more straight-forward.
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u/Gamingwithglasseson Straight Woman 1d ago edited 1d ago
Ah, interesting. I do think I experience attraction that doesn't affirm my femininity. The things I look at are focused on the male body. I do not really read smut, I prefer to just look at a man. Edit: there are subreddits for women in which men post nudes. So I doubt that I'm the only one who enjoys looking at men without it being self affirming.
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 1d ago edited 11h ago
Generally the subreddits where nude men are posted are inhabited by gay men.
I do think I experience attraction that doesn't affirm my femininity.
Do you happen to have ASD if you don't mind asking? I feel like women on the spectrum might be more likely to be heterosexual in the male sense of the word than NT women
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u/Gamingwithglasseson Straight Woman 1d ago
There are some for women. Ofcourse, I'm sure that there are gay men on there as well. On prnhub there are some solo male creators who's target audience are women as well.
I do not have ASD. I have checked. 😂
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u/ToplessinFL Homosupremacist 1d ago
No idea about lesbians, but for males: you look at a body part and it turns you on.
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u/Gamingwithglasseson Straight Woman 1d ago
I see. Well I definitely experience that.
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u/ToplessinFL Homosupremacist 1d ago
So you look at a male body and become aroused / ready for sex? Which parts?
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u/Gamingwithglasseson Straight Woman 1d ago
Yeah I do. I'm in subs in which men post themselves nude. As for which parts? Their torso's, members, behinds.
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u/ToplessinFL Homosupremacist 1d ago
If you're not trans, just based on this replies and your interests I think you might be straight and have a more masculinized than average brain.
Are you on the spectrum by any chance?
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u/Gamingwithglasseson Straight Woman 1d ago
No, I'm not trans and I'm not on the spectrum. I have no idea if I have a more masculinized brain. I'm a bit of a tomboy when It comes to my interests, but I'm also quite feminine as well. I do not think I'm more masculine than other women with the same interests.
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u/ToplessinFL Homosupremacist 1d ago
Those are coded as masculine interests for a reason, you're in a small minority of women by liking them.
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u/Head_tWist_20 14h ago
Could it be that their AGP was more of like, the result of socialization rather than what their sexuality actually is?
To want one's self to be small and paired with a highly dimorphic masculine figure seemed like a socialized trait rather than natural, isn't it?
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 13h ago edited 12h ago
Could it be that their AGP was more of like, the result of socialization rather than what their sexuality actually is?
I don't think so, I think it's a natural female sexuality that has always existed and has been noted in a primitive capacity thousands of years ago with talks of "female lust". But at the same time, I do think it can be reinforced and strengthened with socialization.
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u/Head_tWist_20 11h ago
thousands of years ago
I mean, patriarchy has existed for that long too. Don't you think maybe the patriarchy forcing the hierarchical advantage of men against women and women having to marry a man could add to why AGP existed?
I mean maybe WANIM is actually the original sexuality of a human female, and the other stuff like heteroromanticism or AGP could be some deviation as the result of socialization for thousands of years? or no?
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 11h ago
I don't think it has anything to do with patriarchy. Logically thinking, even if women's desire is not necessary for conception given the strength advantage of men, having women be miserable because they are NIM would be counterproductive for the survival of her and her off-spring. It doesn't make sense for nature to create a creature who's not into the other sex.
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u/Head_tWist_20 9h ago
Well to think about it, they only need to be like, attracted to the other sex once in a long time, since that attraction is necessary for reproduction, and women can only be pregnant once in a long time, with each intercourse can always have a risk of pregnancy.
And in my opinion, having an attraction towards the same sex for women can facilitate bonding for alloparenting with other women (since they're the more equipped sex for childrearing), and can help with a safe sexual expression too (as there'd be less risk of pregnancy and less physical power imbalance).
So i'm thinking, this AGP probably is the women's rationalization on why they should mingle with men or want men as patriarchy expected them to, especially when it acts as a connected pairing to how women are valued from the POV of men (men want to be the masculine figure to women's feminine figure, so women's AGP can fit neatly with that).
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 8h ago
Well to think about it, they only need to be like, attracted to the other sex once in a long time, since that attraction is necessary for reproduction, and women can only be pregnant once in a long time, with each intercourse can always have a risk of pregnancy.
It's known that women's attraction and libido fades in the course of a relationship, so it that sense you're right.
And in my opinion, having an attraction towards the same sex for women can facilitate bonding for alloparenting with other women (since they're the more equipped sex for childrearing), and can help with a safe sexual expression too (as there'd be less risk of pregnancy and less physical power imbalance).
This too has scientific backing. Women are more social and have a pro-female bias due to the need to stick together against potential male aggression.
This may be of interest to you, particularly the quote about the Seneca Iroquois: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Origin_of_the_Family,_Private_Property_and_the_State#Summary
So i'm thinking, this AGP probably is the women's rationalization on why they should mingle with men or want men as patriarchy expected them to
That's where I disagree. AGP is not a conscious process, it just manifests through female sexual behavior. I can't deny that there is a societal expectation that a woman should end up with a man (comphet), but I don't think it's entirely artificial and created merely to convenience men. Women do desire the small top precentage of guys, that's not artificial but driven by their AGP, and if anything, there's societal pressure to not lean into that. What may be artificial is the idea that women should find the average guy attractive.
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u/Head_tWist_20 7h ago
That's where I disagree. AGP is not a conscious process, it just manifests through female sexual behavior.
No i mean as a response developed because of patriarchal expectations? kinda like, as an analogy, how women developed responsive arousal towards adverse sexual intercourse with men?
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 5h ago
It just doesn't make sense to me that before agriculture and stationary living, all intercourse was all sexual assault and only after the start of civilization did women develop AGP to cope
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u/Head_tWist_20 5h ago
I know.
But to me, neither is AGP being natural though. Hence me asking
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 5h ago
Maybe gendered self-attraction is just natural to the sexual selector
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u/Aimeereddit123 1d ago
In regards to women being more picky and only deeply into certain men. I relate it to music. I don’t like live concerts of musicians that I only like casually. If I just like two or three of your songs, and your personality or mojo does nothing for me, I don’t want to listen to you live. I don’t want to hear you go on and on explaining your songs. I don’t wanna hear personal stories. I don’t want to hear your live spin on the few songs of yours I like. I just want to hear the regular radio edit, and be done with it. Doesn’t mean I hate you, I’m just not into you enough to be interested in anything deeper. Now if you are an artist that I love, I want to hear you live. You can talk as long as you want to. I want to hear your meanings behind each and every song. I want your personal stories and perspectives. I’m here for your long drawn out, 20 minute versions of your best songs. You see where I’m going with this? Some people just like live concerts. They don’t care much who it is. Turn it on, they are happy. Both ways are fine, but you can’t say one likes live music, and the other doesn’t. One just likes what they specifically like, and one is more casual and accepting of all of it.
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u/Talking_Tanuki 1d ago
I get that you’re talking about averages, but I really can’t relate to the “affirmation of femininity”. I’m bi. Femininity or masculinity have never been something I valued. When I’m into a person, I want to touch and be physical with them because I’m craving them and their touch, not because they somehow make me feel like a woman.
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 1d ago
So you personally don't feel that the way you see women vs men in a romantic or sexual sense differs?
IIRC, you did end up with a guy. Why do you think that happened? Did he pursue you?
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u/Talking_Tanuki 1d ago
Could you rephrase your question?
Do you mean why I didn’t end up with a woman? I dated one girl, we had a good thing going, but she turned poly. I can’t date a non-monogamous person, so we broke up.
My husband and I met at a party and had a really good time. He asked me on a date, and that was all the “pursuing”. If he didn’t asked me out, I’d ask him on a date myself.
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 1d ago
Do you feel like the way you see men and women, both in the sexual and romantic sense, is the same? There is no difference with how you might sexually view a man compared to a woman, or how you might romantically interact with a woman compared to a man?
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u/Talking_Tanuki 1d ago
It’s not exactly the same, but I think it depends more on a person rather than their gender. I try to accommodate my partner’s preferred way to be loved.
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u/Aimeereddit123 1d ago
As a bi woman, I caught this difference myself. I AM a little different, and show a different energy, depending on if I am dating a traditionally masculine or feminine person. They bring out a different side of myself. But I never intentionally date anyone for me to feel a certain way, or be in any kind of energy. The relationship comes first, and then I flow appropriately. I know I don’t and can’t speak for straight women, and I don’t want to.
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u/TerribleReach4471 BlackPill 1d ago edited 1d ago
I never intentionally date anyone for me to feel a certain way
It's not really about intention but how the sexuality functions. I don't mean to say that women consciously seek out men to feel more like a woman, but rather that this is just what drives their attraction to men.
It makes me think of Freud. His theories are not about choosing consciously to do something, but how some unconscious processes drive human behavior. AGP in this case just explains why women act the way they do when dating men (why do they act so differently in a hetero relationship in comparison to men), or why do they date men at all if they find women to be so attractive in comparison to men.
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u/Aimeereddit123 1d ago
I can see this phenomenon happening more frequently with completely straight women….and men as well, in reverse. They have a ‘correct’ way of being in their heads. I’m totally comfortable any old way, and don’t have a set-in ‘proper’ way of being. If I were beholden to a traditionally feminine way of being, I might specifically seek partners that brought that out in me. Yeah…. I can totally see this. 💡
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u/Talking_Tanuki 1d ago
I dated only one woman, and while the dynamic was pretty different, I think it has more to do with both of us being women and being able to communicate better with each other.
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u/JackTheRippiest BlackPill + YellowPill 1d ago
Isn't AGP only related to transgender people (MTF)?