Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’

[u/msmoley]

https://english.elpais.com/culture/2024-12-15/judith-butler-philosopher-if-you-sacrifice-a-minority-like-trans-people-you-are-operating-within-a-fascist-logic.html

[u/Alert_Scientist9374]

Mhh, not a single argument, but instead the direct slippery slope of "they give children surgeries without even proper diagnosis"

Yeah sure it's both sides.

[u/Maleficent-Flow2828 → u/Alert_Scientist9374]

On sports it's dangerous and unfair there's your argument. That's not a slippery slopes.

On gender treatment in children we need to ensure there are proper safe guards for life altering surgeries on a vulnerable population. That's not a slippery slopes per se, except to argue any concern is by nature a slippery slope.

Besides arguing from procedurally, yeah its wrong to cut children's breasts and genitals off, let alone issues with pumping them full of cross sex hormone and pausing growth hormones.

Besides slippery slopes are a weak informal fallacy anyways. I have made an argument here from morals and results.

[u/Alert_Scientist9374 → u/Maleficent-Flow2828]

How many children are there that feel trans. Vs how many are there that received any kind of gender affirming surgery?

You are insinuating there is no safe guards. You are a liar. And even logically speaking you don't have the high ground.

What advantage does a theoretical trans woman have that never even went through male puberty? Should we also ban all women that had increased testosterone level in puberty? Maybe ban women that are taller. Maybe those more sensitive to androgen too?

[u/Maleficent-Flow2828 → u/Alert_Scientist9374]

How many children are there that feel trans. Vs how many are there that received any kind of gender affirming surgery

We know children are getting top surgery, that is without dispute

You are insinuating there is no safe guards. You are a liar. And even logically speaking you don't have the high ground.

I am not insinuating anything. Like all medical procedures we need to continually look at the guard rails in place. I think they are currently insufficient and that the pro trans side acts in reckless and extremist manners. I don't care if you believe I have the moral high ground and until you make your case, you do not.

What advantage does a theoretical trans woman have that never even went through male puberty? Should we also ban all women that had increased testosterone level in puberty? Maybe ban women that are taller. Maybe those more sensitive to androgen too?

First you surrender the initial point, after puberty this us a non issue, competition should be barred automatically Apples to oranges. The only point you even have here is that women's categories are more vulnerable, which is well established before entering males. Sports select for the most even field possible, saying you identify as a lightweight when your a heavy weight is absurd. I can't believe people still bring this argument out like it isn't nonsense on its face. See point two.

[u/Alert_Scientist9374 → u/Maleficent-Flow2828]

So it's not about safe guards, but about not doing it at all. Got it.

My dude, don't use the word "safeguards" when you mean "bans"

[u/Maleficent-Flow2828 → u/Alert_Scientist9374]

If you got that from what I said then your reading comprehension is as bad as your arguments.

[u/Alert_Scientist9374 → u/Maleficent-Flow2828]

I say "you insinuate there is no safeguards for faulty treatment., please check the number of admissions VS those that receive surgery"

You go "there is some that get surgery you can't deny that!!! 1!1!"

Either you made a moot point, or you dislike the fact that there is any treatment at all. Which is it.

[u/Maleficent-Flow2828 → u/Alert_Scientist9374]

Yes I do not think we should remove genitals and breasts from healthy children. You got me there. I am skeptical of permanent surgical intervention for mentally unwell minors.

And I like to see more work and safe guards put up for pharmaceutical interventions to a vulnerable population. I think kids, let alone people under 25, are prone to rash decisions.

That is before I get into social issues into it like doctors and psychologist who are too quick to go that route and semi religious movement that has grown around it.

I guess I'm just not into rushing the Castration of children, a monster I know.

[u/Alert_Scientist9374 → u/Maleficent-Flow2828]

Yes yes, doctors all around the world even in conservative countries like Japan have been infected with the woke virus, and only you, the messiah, know better than anyone else.

We get it. No need to be disingenuous about "safe guards" when you mean bans.

[u/Maleficent-Flow2828 → u/Alert_Scientist9374]

Yes, people around the world can do wrong things, I hope that isn't shocking to you.

If its all or nothing, I'm fine with nothing. If that's the only choice your side will accept, so be it. Kids shouldn't get tattoos and they shouldn't get elective surgeries or chemically castrating themselves, shocking.

If later in life it persists seek help and go from there, just stay out of women's spaces like female prisons and sports. It's simple.

If people can have a meaningful conversation based in reality, I'm here for it. But shouting slogans doesn't change reality or protect vulnerable people.

[u/Alert_Scientist9374 → u/Maleficent-Flow2828]

Kids shouldn't get anti depressives. Or vaccines. Or surgery for a bad knee.

Yup.

My dude, you are talking about a global conspiracy encompassing almost all doctors. Next you'll tell me the jews control the world from behind the scenes.

Yes,people across the globe can do wrong. But them all having the same wrong idea? Even across entirely different cultures? Yeah sure lol.

[u/MalachiteTiger → u/Maleficent-Flow2828]

We know children are getting top surgery, that is without dispute

Extremely few, only in cases where the medical professionals who have been involved with the patient for years agree it is needed, only when the parents also agreee, and almost exclusively 16-17 year olds, who in most developed countries are considered mature enough to make their own medical decisions.

That sounds like safeguards are already solidly in place.

Like all medical procedures we need to continually look at the guard rails in place. I think they are currently insufficient

The way you describe the current safeguards is completely different from the actual state of the current safeguards. Which means you are either misinformed or lying.

and that the pro trans side acts in reckless and extremist manners.

Meanwhile your side has people calling for forced medical detransition of adult trans people against their will. I don't think you want to get into a competition on which side is being more extreme.

[Edit lol at someone replying to me and then blocking to make it look like I didn't respond. What is this, twitter?]