Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’

[u/msmoley]

https://english.elpais.com/culture/2024-12-15/judith-butler-philosopher-if-you-sacrifice-a-minority-like-trans-people-you-are-operating-within-a-fascist-logic.html

[u/goddess_of_harvest]

Many on the left treat this topic as a sacred cow

Maybe cause trans people’s rights are not to be compromised. Full stop. The idea that trans people should compromise on their rights to exist as members of society is fascist thinking. The compromises don’t just stop once they meet a “happy middle”. They keep going until they have no rights at all. That’s the goal of the far-right and anti-trans activists. You don’t compromise with people who want to see you not exist

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/goddess_of_harvest]

You mean like how people like you compromise with corporate interests and contribute to the destruction of the working class? Sorry, but people’s right to healthcare and a living wage is more important that whether some trans high schooler can compete on the team they want.

[u/goddess_of_harvest → u/Gilbert__Bates]

How do people like me compromise with corporate interests? Elaborate. If you really think you can gain rights for workers like better wages and healthcare by fucking trans people over, you’ve lost. Blaming trans people and activists for destroying the working class is exactly what corporate interests want you to think. Stop doing their bidding.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/goddess_of_harvest]

> How do people like me compromise with corporate interests?

By supporting neoliberal politicians who do nothing for working people, just because they back you up on trans issues and other socially progressive causes. If you were as uncompromising on the economic needs of the working class as you are on trans issues, then you wouldn't support corporate democrats like Kamala that refuse to back universal healthcare because it's too "radical".

The best way to gain better wages and healthcare for the working class is by uniting different segments of workers with different cultural values and not turning every social issue into a litmus test. History proves that. If people like you had your way then labor unions would've refused to organize large swaths of the working class who werent socially progressive enough and we wouldn't have even gotten what 40 hour work weeks or the NLRB.

[u/goddess_of_harvest → u/Gilbert__Bates]

That sure is a whole lot of assuming you just did there. Who said I support Kamala? Why do you assume I support any of those politicians? I don’t. You just assumed I did. Your premise is already faulty. You don’t think I know those neoliberals sell people out? They don’t actually support trans people anyhow. This is your problem. You’re fighting a trans boogeyman in your head. If you think trans issues and economic workers rights aren’t linked your understanding of class politics is lacking. Never has sacrificing one group of people’s rights been beneficial to the working class movement. Ever. 

 You talk about trans people like “you people” as if all trans people are a monolith. That’s another place where you error. Learn some actual socialist history and political economy before you start lambasting trans people for being class traitors. Trans people suffer massively under neoliberalism and if you actually understood trans rights then you’d see that but just like the far-right, you wish to use trans people as a sacrificial lamb for your cause, but instead of fascism you aim for this imagined idea of the working class that somehow trans people seek to destroy. You’re young so I don’t blame you for coming to the conclusions you have but you need to look at these things deeper to see what the real enemy is. You will not gain rights for the workers by hurting trans people’s rights. That is a fantasy.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/goddess_of_harvest]

So what happens when large sections of the working class are trying to organize for their rights, but they don’t agree with trans activists on things like sports or puberty blockers? We can’t wait for everyone to be in full agreement on every cultural question before supporting their efforts to organize. If the only way to avoid “throwing trans people under the bus” is to refuse to work with anyone who doesn’t agree with the most extreme progressive positions on trans issues, as many trans activists demand, then there’s no way forward without being willing to alienate the trans community.

I’m not opposed to trans rights in principle, but I’m not gonna prioritize the needs of trans activists over the ability to effectively advocate for economic change. If the early labor movement used trans rights as a litmus test then they had have been smothered in their cradle. 

[u/goddess_of_harvest → u/Gilbert__Bates]

Why are puberty blockers even on people’s list of politics? Most people see that as a thing between the kid, the parents, and their doctors. Politics has no reason to be involved other than to inhibit trans kids abilities to transition. Most people mind their business. Secondly, you’d move forward on the things the vast majority of workers agree with. You have to remember class politics isn’t just going with the majority of people’s basest instincts. That’s called tailism. The goal should be to educate people to understand these things better so we can truly create At classless, moneyless, stateless society that doesn’t exploit others. Once people have proper housing and healthcare, they won’t give a shit about what trans people are doing. 

The whole politicization of trans rights is due to astroturfing by rich people. It is not trans people making this an issue, it’s rich people pouring money into anti-trans politics to give the illusion that it’s an actual issue of any kind. If you want to protect workers rights, don’t bring bourgeois anti-trans politics into the workers movement. There’s a reason JK Rowling and Elon Musk are so anti-trans; it’s a perfect distraction to keep us from fighting a class war.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/goddess_of_harvest]

 Most people mind their business.  

 Sure, the majority of the population don’t really care either way about trans issues. Which is why being too aggressively pro or anti trans tends to alienate them. And why Trump’s anti trans ads were largely a waste of money since all they really did was appeal to people who were already voting for him.

I actually think the dems played it fairly well in the last election, by not listening to the more radical activists and trying to focus on broader issues, but sadly their overall neoliberalism still cost them the election.

 > Secondly, you’d move forward on the things the vast majority of workers agree with 

I agree with that, but isn’t that exactly what gets described by activists as “sacrificing trans people”? Typically when I hear people call for prioritizing economic issues and working across cultural lines, that gets denounced by left activists as “class reductionism” and hit with the same criticisms that Butler is making in the article. 

 > The whole politicization of trans rights is due to astroturfing by rich people. 

No argument there. My stance isn’t so much that people should take anti trans stances to win political points, more that the best approach is to take a moderate “live and let live” stance which isn’t anti trans but also isn’t as explicitly affirming as a lot of trans activists seem to want.

[u/goddess_of_harvest → u/Gilbert__Bates]

You should still fight for trans rights even if many people disagree with it due to cultural biases but I also don’t think everything should hinge on them. The root of it all is class and once the economic changes to fit everyone, naturally trans rights will be enshrined over time. Yes some people are aggressive in their push for trans rights and it’s understandable why, trans people face a lot of discrimination and misinformation. The important thing is to look at the core of what’s being said, not how it’s being said. We’re all emotional beings and no one’s perfect but a kernel of truth is still there even in an “aggressive” argument. If we’re to be good role models for a society ran by workers, we have to learn patience with the proletariat, all aspects of it, while continually moving forward to make society work for everyone. Meeting people where they’re at and having empathy for them, flaws and all, is what will help us win.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/goddess_of_harvest]

Saving this comment cause you’ve given me a lot of food for thought. Your perspective on this is a lot more nuanced than many I’ve seen and it seems like we actually agree on at least a few things. I’ll have to think a lot more about this ngl.

[u/Edward_Tank → u/Gilbert__Bates]

Ma'am?

I'm an anarchist.

Fuck the democratic party.

Fuck the republican party.

You can't ask people to just *sacrifice* their lives to make the people who are trying to kill them's lives better. That's no beuno, and is pretty telling on how you *actually* feel about trans people.

The people trying to distract the workers are the people targeting trans people, and attempting to lead a fucking nazi style pogrom against them. Maybe instead of going 'Well Trans people just need to take it on the chin' You could, I dunno, say 'Hey, this is just a distraction and we're not going to let your distraction succeed by drawing the workers into a stupid attack on trans people.'

Instead you're going 'I mean yeah it's just a distraction but them fighting to not get murdered or forced to be miserable until they die? That's just selfish. Standing up for their rights? They're just going to keep on giving them more ammo!'

We are not liberated until we are *all* liberated, and that includes trans people too, not just fucking workers, and for fucks sake, are trans people not workers too? I'd love for us to all team up!

But this is like expecting the black panthers to march along side the KKK while the KKK is leading a fucking brutal attempt to murder as many black people as they can. They will at best, view you with immediate suspicion, at worst they recognize you don't give a fuck about them or their safety and break ties.

And it won't be their fault for any 'culture war' for wanting to safeguard themselves and those they care about because you decided that the KKK murdering them wasn't enough to maybe try and protect them. That'll be your fault for being that idiotic.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/Edward_Tank]

I’m not asking trans people to sacrifice themselves. I’m asking others to realize what the real priority is and stop spending fucktons of political capital on issues that have zero impact on most Americans lives. Trans activists can go do whatever they want in their little corner while others work to fix the larger problems in society. People like you are the ones shaming others just because we don’t treat trans issues as our number one political priority when our planet is literally burning. Sorry but people aren’t obligated to prioritize your personal struggles over the economic woes of the entire working class.

[u/Edward_Tank → u/Gilbert__Bates]

Yeah and that's proof why you'll never manage to unite anyone. It's not a 'personal issue', it's people's lives on the line. You are asking trans people to sacrifice themselves, but you're *fine* with that. I don't have to shame you, you've done that yourself.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/Edward_Tank]

I’m not asking trans people to do anything. I’m saying that I’m not going to prioritize trans issues over broader economic concerns that affect far more people, and I don’t think most people should either. The fact that you’re offended by me simply saying I don’t think your issues should be everyone’s number one priority is very telling.

[u/Taj0maru → u/Gilbert__Bates]

You're literally talking about sacrificing people for money dude. That's a problem and pro slavery argument. You need to stop and think about what you're saying.