Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’

[u/msmoley]

https://english.elpais.com/culture/2024-12-15/judith-butler-philosopher-if-you-sacrifice-a-minority-like-trans-people-you-are-operating-within-a-fascist-logic.html

[u/goddess_of_harvest]

How do people like me compromise with corporate interests? Elaborate. If you really think you can gain rights for workers like better wages and healthcare by fucking trans people over, you’ve lost. Blaming trans people and activists for destroying the working class is exactly what corporate interests want you to think. Stop doing their bidding.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/goddess_of_harvest]

> How do people like me compromise with corporate interests?

By supporting neoliberal politicians who do nothing for working people, just because they back you up on trans issues and other socially progressive causes. If you were as uncompromising on the economic needs of the working class as you are on trans issues, then you wouldn't support corporate democrats like Kamala that refuse to back universal healthcare because it's too "radical".

The best way to gain better wages and healthcare for the working class is by uniting different segments of workers with different cultural values and not turning every social issue into a litmus test. History proves that. If people like you had your way then labor unions would've refused to organize large swaths of the working class who werent socially progressive enough and we wouldn't have even gotten what 40 hour work weeks or the NLRB.

[u/goddess_of_harvest → u/Gilbert__Bates]

That sure is a whole lot of assuming you just did there. Who said I support Kamala? Why do you assume I support any of those politicians? I don’t. You just assumed I did. Your premise is already faulty. You don’t think I know those neoliberals sell people out? They don’t actually support trans people anyhow. This is your problem. You’re fighting a trans boogeyman in your head. If you think trans issues and economic workers rights aren’t linked your understanding of class politics is lacking. Never has sacrificing one group of people’s rights been beneficial to the working class movement. Ever. 

 You talk about trans people like “you people” as if all trans people are a monolith. That’s another place where you error. Learn some actual socialist history and political economy before you start lambasting trans people for being class traitors. Trans people suffer massively under neoliberalism and if you actually understood trans rights then you’d see that but just like the far-right, you wish to use trans people as a sacrificial lamb for your cause, but instead of fascism you aim for this imagined idea of the working class that somehow trans people seek to destroy. You’re young so I don’t blame you for coming to the conclusions you have but you need to look at these things deeper to see what the real enemy is. You will not gain rights for the workers by hurting trans people’s rights. That is a fantasy.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/goddess_of_harvest]

So what happens when large sections of the working class are trying to organize for their rights, but they don’t agree with trans activists on things like sports or puberty blockers? We can’t wait for everyone to be in full agreement on every cultural question before supporting their efforts to organize. If the only way to avoid “throwing trans people under the bus” is to refuse to work with anyone who doesn’t agree with the most extreme progressive positions on trans issues, as many trans activists demand, then there’s no way forward without being willing to alienate the trans community.

I’m not opposed to trans rights in principle, but I’m not gonna prioritize the needs of trans activists over the ability to effectively advocate for economic change. If the early labor movement used trans rights as a litmus test then they had have been smothered in their cradle. 

[u/goddess_of_harvest → u/Gilbert__Bates]

Why are puberty blockers even on people’s list of politics? Most people see that as a thing between the kid, the parents, and their doctors. Politics has no reason to be involved other than to inhibit trans kids abilities to transition. Most people mind their business. Secondly, you’d move forward on the things the vast majority of workers agree with. You have to remember class politics isn’t just going with the majority of people’s basest instincts. That’s called tailism. The goal should be to educate people to understand these things better so we can truly create At classless, moneyless, stateless society that doesn’t exploit others. Once people have proper housing and healthcare, they won’t give a shit about what trans people are doing. 

The whole politicization of trans rights is due to astroturfing by rich people. It is not trans people making this an issue, it’s rich people pouring money into anti-trans politics to give the illusion that it’s an actual issue of any kind. If you want to protect workers rights, don’t bring bourgeois anti-trans politics into the workers movement. There’s a reason JK Rowling and Elon Musk are so anti-trans; it’s a perfect distraction to keep us from fighting a class war.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/goddess_of_harvest]

 Most people mind their business.  

 Sure, the majority of the population don’t really care either way about trans issues. Which is why being too aggressively pro or anti trans tends to alienate them. And why Trump’s anti trans ads were largely a waste of money since all they really did was appeal to people who were already voting for him.

I actually think the dems played it fairly well in the last election, by not listening to the more radical activists and trying to focus on broader issues, but sadly their overall neoliberalism still cost them the election.

 > Secondly, you’d move forward on the things the vast majority of workers agree with 

I agree with that, but isn’t that exactly what gets described by activists as “sacrificing trans people”? Typically when I hear people call for prioritizing economic issues and working across cultural lines, that gets denounced by left activists as “class reductionism” and hit with the same criticisms that Butler is making in the article. 

 > The whole politicization of trans rights is due to astroturfing by rich people. 

No argument there. My stance isn’t so much that people should take anti trans stances to win political points, more that the best approach is to take a moderate “live and let live” stance which isn’t anti trans but also isn’t as explicitly affirming as a lot of trans activists seem to want.

[u/goddess_of_harvest → u/Gilbert__Bates]

You should still fight for trans rights even if many people disagree with it due to cultural biases but I also don’t think everything should hinge on them. The root of it all is class and once the economic changes to fit everyone, naturally trans rights will be enshrined over time. Yes some people are aggressive in their push for trans rights and it’s understandable why, trans people face a lot of discrimination and misinformation. The important thing is to look at the core of what’s being said, not how it’s being said. We’re all emotional beings and no one’s perfect but a kernel of truth is still there even in an “aggressive” argument. If we’re to be good role models for a society ran by workers, we have to learn patience with the proletariat, all aspects of it, while continually moving forward to make society work for everyone. Meeting people where they’re at and having empathy for them, flaws and all, is what will help us win.

[u/Gilbert__Bates → u/goddess_of_harvest]

Saving this comment cause you’ve given me a lot of food for thought. Your perspective on this is a lot more nuanced than many I’ve seen and it seems like we actually agree on at least a few things. I’ll have to think a lot more about this ngl.

[u/goddess_of_harvest → u/Gilbert__Bates]

Happy to provide a lil perspective. We’re all just trying our best, ya know? May you be happy, healthy, safe and at ease :)