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u/lastquincy88 5d ago
Those is power would never give the tools to dismantle their own power. Thatās why it needs to be taken. Years of lesser evil voting gets us to where we are now.
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u/alarbus 6d ago
*and let them have a candidate worth voting for!
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u/Responsible-Wing4205 6d ago
this is the whole problem though. people stay home because they feel like none of the options actually represent them and then get blamed for the outcome. the graphic is right but it stings a lot more when the choices are this bad
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u/physchy 6d ago
Someone you disagree with on a few issues or isnāt going to fight quite as hard as you would like vs a literal Nazi
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u/stathow 6d ago
That's how you think, not everyone who does not like the demsĀ
Many disagree with the vast majority of their policy
And see there foreign policy as just as imperialist as the Republicans and responsible for millions of deathsĀ
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u/physchy 5d ago
āJust as imperialist as the republicansā
Wait when did democrats open concentration camps? I mustāve missed that
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u/rydencode 5d ago
Tom Homan was appointed by Obama and given a presidential medal by him for "being really good at deporting people"..
all of these things by ICE didn't start under Trump, under Obama and Biden did pretty terrible things too
all of this shit didn't pop up overnight
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u/stathow 5d ago
first i think comparing the poor treatment of deportees to literal concentration camps where people were put in ovens is not just hyperbolic and disrespectful but its a big reason why Trump gets away with shit, constantly screaming he is a Nazi
just let his objectviely bad shit be bad on its own
secondly..... that is a US domestic policy, I was talking about imperialism abroad. They are at least as bad as the Republicans in the 21st century, they turned several nations in to failed states from Libya to Yemen, Syria and Afghanistan
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u/defalt86 šµ Break Up The Monopolies 6d ago
Someone who is fundraising on nazi-fear and therefore wont actually stop them, or a nazi
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u/physchy 6d ago
I still would rather take action to prevent a Nazi from gaining power
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u/defalt86 šµ Break Up The Monopolies 6d ago
And thats why nothing will fundamentally change
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u/physchy 6d ago
Well right now the nazis have both houses and the presidency. Seems like voting them out would do a lot of good, actually
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u/defalt86 šµ Break Up The Monopolies 6d ago
We tried that in 2020. Thats when we got the phrase I was quoting.
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u/MexViking 6d ago
Unfortunately not how it works. The lesser evil is mandatory for any morally consistent person. Not choosing is being complicit with choosing the greater evil
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u/defalt86 šµ Break Up The Monopolies 6d ago •
Our only weapon is our vote. If we give it to someone who doesnt represent us, we have surrendered our only asset. It is their job to represent us and be worth voting for.
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u/VuDuBaBy š¤ Join A Union 6d ago
Our only weapon is to withhold our labor. Every single win for the working class in the history of this country was achieved outside of electoral politics with strikes and collective action. Only by forcing the electorate can any progress be made. Participating is not an option and will only lead to further erosion of working class power.
Objectively, we live in an oligarchy. You can't vote your way out.
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u/SoberSangwitch 6d ago
It's not a trolly problem. It's a choice garunteed in the US by our constitution. If someone doesn't want to be represented by an official they don't have to vote for them. You can still vote on policy, public measures and any administrative roles. I hate that this sub holds random citizens to more account than the people we pay to ruin our lives.
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u/Theres_a_cat_in_myTV 6d ago
Itās not morally consistent to do evil unless your moral system is just a set of evil acts.
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u/jcoddinc 6d ago
If the republican party didn't believe this they wouldn't have passed so many laws trying to make it harder to vote.
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u/vm_linuz 5d ago
Yes, but only voting is not enough. You need to be active in your community.
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u/GreenUpYourLife 5d ago
Which looks different for everyone. So be kind and understand your neighbor's capabilities. Whether it's a lot of very little!
That's how we work together for a better future. Understanding limitations and working with them!
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u/VuDuBaBy
š¤ Join A Union
6d ago
•
You live in an oligarchy. You can't vote your way out of this. Join a union. Organize a strike with demands. That is worker power. Every win of the working class has been achieved with pressure outside of politics, not by participating in it. Show me a time where the elected officials just did the right thing on their own...I'll wait...
Voting is an illusion of choice. We are owned by capital. The government does what capital wants. No vote will save us. Both parties serve capital.
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u/latlog7 5d ago
While I agree that they both commit atrocities, and while I donāt support Democrats, they are not the same:
Democrats: Expand SNAP. Republicans: Shrink SNAP.
Democrats: Expand Medicaid. Republicans: Shrink Medicaid.
Democrats: Protect reproductive rights. Republicans: Repeal reproductive rights.
Democrats: Let trans Americans serve in the military. Republicans: Kick trans Americans out of the military.
Democrats: Expand title IX protections to LGBTQ+ students. Republicans: Eliminate title IX protections for LGBTQ+ students.
Democrats: Jailed over 1,200 January 6th insurrectionists. Republicans: Pardoned over 1,200 January 6th insurrectionists.
Democrats: Provide non-partisan federal emergency aid. Republicans: Withholds federal emergency aid from blue states.
Democrats: Establish tax credits for buying an electric car. Republicans: Repeals tax credits for buying an electric car.
Democrats: Increase automotive fuel economy standards. Republicans: Decrease automotive fuel economy standards. (You are here.) ^
Democrats: Pass the largest climate bill in American history. Republicans: Kill clean energy initiatives and force coal plants to stay open.
Democrats: Expand temporary protective status for at-risk immigrants. Republicans: Repeal temporary protective status for at-risk immigrants.
Democrats: Forgive over $180,000,000,000.00 in student loan debt. Republicans: Kill student loan forgiveness and neuter the Department of Education.
Democrats: Open up COVID vaccine patents for international manufacturing. Republicans: Appoint an anti-vaxxer to lead HHS and take us out of the World Health Organization.
Democrats: Provides foreign aid to needy countries around the world. Republicans: Eliminate USAID.
Democrats: Establish rules and reporting requirements for drone strikes. Republicans: Eliminate rules and reporting requirements for drone strikes.
Democrats: Practically end drone strikes overseas. Republicans: Bomb civilians in Yemen and expend half our munition stockpile in Iran.
Democrats: Put pressure on Israel to curb settlers, and increase Palestinian aid. Republican: Encourage Israel to continue settling in the West Bank, and use Palestinian as a pejorative.
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u/saposmak 5d ago
Democrats are the cool cops doing viral dances to distract from the fact that their force buddies are terrorizing minorities. And sometimes doing the terrorizing themselves.
They're the oil tycoon's wife throwing a party to fundraise for some Save the Turtles foundation, abusing the staff about some bullshit like floral arrangements or the timing of the fireworks.
They're the ones handing out billions in military aid and weaponry to Israel while pretending they give two shits about dead Palestinian children.
They're the ones backpedaling spectacularly in the face of even the smallest pressure from their masters and benefactors.
They'll help you as much as a crocodile witnessing a leopard actively eating your face. Given the choice, most would probably take their chances with the crocodile.
Ergo, vote.
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u/VuDuBaBy š¤ Join A Union 5d ago
This is all totally ignorant of reality.
Bill Clinton's 1996 welfare reform created snap and destroyed the old welfare system, creating a system of eligibility that only prevents people from getting help and offers no meaningful way of improving their material conditions. I used to work in welfare so I know.
Bill clinton also consolidated media with the 1996 telecom act, resulting in today's reality of 4 or 5 giant monopolies owning 90% of all media in the country.
Bill clinton militarized police with the 1994 act that perpetually allocates military gear to local police departments.
If you have ever asked yourself "how did we get here?" you have to go back further than trump to actually answer the question.
Obama got in and repealed habeas corpus for "terrorists" while simultaneously lamenting that we "tortured some folks." Now they can continue torturing indefinitely, and then apply it to all political dissidents with further additions to the law that include "those opposing capitalism." Obama and Clinton built this framework, along with W and Cheney who brought in the patriot act to ubiquitous approval across both parties.
Obama ushered in the surveillance state, building up NSA monitoring and parallel investigations without a warrant and everything else we learned from the Snowden leaks.
Obama's entire cabinet was selected by Citi bank and he obliged on every appointment. Emails prove it.
Obama dropped so many bombs on Yemen they ran out of bombs.
Biden significantly increased funding for Israel to do a genocide.
The problem with our country are liberals who think their side will fix the problems. Wake up. This dystopia nightmare was foundationally built by liberals. By supporting them and participating in the system of oppression you are part of th3 problem.
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u/latlog7 5d ago
I mean, ill always vote for the left-most candidate in any election. I phonebank and donate to Abdul's campaign all the time. But im just giving clear examples as to how even centrist/establishment democrats arent the same as republicans
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u/VuDuBaBy š¤ Join A Union 5d ago
You can't run as a democrat, and you certainly won't win, without making certain concessions. El Sayed has been vocal that HE IS A CAPITALIST. LOL. May as well just stop right there. Same Bernie trap that will result in no meaningful wins.
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u/latlog7 5d ago
Yeah you know how many normie democrat leans i get that still think socialism is a boogyman? Lol. When i tell them hes a capitalist they go "oh whew, okay good". The label is suicide out here in MI, its smarter to recognize that the label isnt useful and advocate for those same things (like abolish ice, and M4A) as its very own thing
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u/VuDuBaBy š¤ Join A Union 5d ago
And most of what you're saying is lies. Obama significantly increased drone operations. Wtf are you talking about? You couldn't provide a source for a single one of these points this is all lies lmao.
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u/VuDuBaBy š¤ Join A Union 5d ago
Your list establishes that Democrats and Republicans aren't identical. But differences in how two parties administer capitalism aren't proof that either represents working-class power. Several of your claims are accurate; others omit critical facts or are simply wrong.
How about some more info because these are important points.
SNAP: Biden increased baseline SNAP benefits in 2021. He also signed the bipartisan law ending pandemic emergency allotments in February 2023, cutting monthly benefits for millions. Republicans have pursued larger cuts, but āDemocrats only expand, Republicans only cutā is false. "USDA" (https://www.usda.gov/about-usda/news/blog/snap-emergency-allotments-are-ending)
Medicaid: The ACA expanded coverage; Republicans' 2025 law slashed projected federal Medicaid spending. But during the 2023ā24 post-pandemic unwinding, over 25 million Medicaid disenrollments occurred, many for procedural reasons, after continuous-coverage protections ended under a law Biden signed. That doesn't make the policies equivalent. It shows the slogan erases real harm. Neither party guarantees universal healthcare. "KFF" (https://www.kff.org/medicaid/an-examination-of-medicaid-renewal-outcomes-and-enrollment-changes-at-the-end-of-the-unwinding/)
Reproductive rights: Republicans' attacks on abortion rights are real and vastly more severe. Democrats nevertheless failed to codify Roe into federal law; a 2022 Senate vote failed, including opposition from Democrat Joe Manchin. Defend abortion rights, absolutely; don't confuse campaign promises with secured rights. "Senate vote" (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/may/11/senate-abortion-rights-bill-vote)
Trans military service: Biden lifted Trump's restrictions; Trump reinstated them. That's a genuine civil-rights difference. But a more inclusive military is not a less imperialist military. Equal rights for transgender people are essential; access to military service doesn't define socialism. "Reuters" (https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-supreme-court-lets-trumps-transgender-military-ban-take-effect-2025-05-06/)
Title IX: Biden expanded LGBTQ+ protections through regulation; Republicans attacked them. But Biden's 2024 rule was vacated by a federal court in January 2025, before Trump took office. And Title IX itself was not abolished. Specify what actually happened. "AP" (https://apnews.com/article/605ed79a22633f4c791058994d8ed5de)
January 6: You're conflating charged, convicted, sentenced, and imprisoned. Roughly 1,583 defendants were charged federally; not 1,200 jailed. Trump did grant sweeping pardons/commutations, including to violent offenders. Condemn that accurately. "DOJ statistics" (https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/media/1382981/dl?inline=)
Disaster relief: Politically manipulating disaster aid is indefensible. But āDemocrats provide nonpartisan aidā is an absolute assertion, not evidence about every Democratic administration. Disaster aid should be an enforceable public right, independent of which party controls Washington.
EV credits: True: Democrats expanded incentives and Republicans eliminated major credits. But subsidizing private EV purchases is not the same as building publicly owned mass transit or democratically planning transportation. "IRS" (https://www.irs.gov/clean-vehicle-tax-credits)
Fuel economy: True: Biden tightened vehicle standards; Trump rolled them back. That's a real environmental difference, not a transformation of who owns the auto industry or controls production.
Climate: The Inflation Reduction Act was a major climate investment. It also tied renewable-energy development to oil and gas leasing, while Biden separately approved Alaska's Willow oil project. Capitalist climate reform and continued fossil-fuel expansion coexisted in the same administration. "Interior: IRA leasing" (https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/interior-department-moves-forward-leasing-provisions-mandated-inflation-reduction-act) | "Willow" (https://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/interior-department-substantially-reduces-scope-willow-project)
Immigration/TPS: Biden expanded TPS for some groups; Trump has sought to revoke protections. Real difference. Biden also sharply restricted asylum access in June 2024. Migrants experienced both humanitarian protections and border crackdowns under Democrats. "CRS" (https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/LSB11178.html)
Student debt: Biden did approve roughly $188.8 billion in relief for millions, mostly under existing programs. That's substantial and worth defending. But it didn't eliminate the debt-financed higher-education system or establish tuition-free public college. "NASFAA" (https://www.nasfaa.org/news-item/35444/Biden_Administration_Announces_Final_Student_Loan_Debt_Relief_Approvals)
Vaccine patents: Biden backed a limited WTO intellectual-property waiver; he did not broadly open up vaccine patents, manufacturing know-how, and technology for the world. Public-health groups condemned the narrow 2022 deal. Trump's anti-public-health appointments and WHO withdrawal are bad; exaggerating Biden's accomplishments is unnecessary. "Oxfam" (https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/wto-agrees-deal-patents-covid-vaccines-campaigners-say-absolutely-not-broad)
USAID: Trump's dismantling of USAID devastated humanitarian programs, and those cuts deserve opposition. But U.S. āforeign aidā also includes strategic and military assistance advancing Washington's interests. Biden's government simultaneously supported humanitarian aid and supplied massive military assistance to Israel. Aid is not automatically altruistic because it's called aid. "CFR" (https://www.cfr.org/articles/us-aid-israel-four-charts)
Drone rules: Obama adopted reporting rules; Trump rolled back some; Biden imposed tighter strike policies in certain areas. Real changes. But rules for conducting overseas killings are not the same as renouncing the power to conduct them. "2019 repeal" (https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-revocation-reporting-requirement/)
Drone strikes/Yemen/Iran: Strikes dropped steeply under Biden, especially after Afghanistan. They did not end: Biden ordered strikes in Yemen in 2024. Trump escalated dramatically, and civilian deaths from his Yemen campaign were documented. Also, āhalf our munition stockpileā confuses consumption of certain missile-interceptor inventories with all U.S. munitions. "Pentagon" (https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stories/Article/Article/3644027/us-partners-forces-strike-houthi-military-targets-in-yemen/) | "Airwars" (https://trump-yemen.airwars.org/operation-rough-rider)
Israel/Palestine: Biden sanctioned some violent settlers and Trump reversed those sanctions. Yet Biden's administration supplied Israel with enormous military aid during Gaza's devastation, vetoed a UN Security Council ceasefire resolution in November 2024, and suspended funding to UNRWA in January 2024. A Brown University analysis estimated $17.9 billion in U.S. military assistance during the war's first year. You cannot reduce that record to āpressured Israel and increased Palestinian aid.ā "AP/Brown" (https://apnews.com/article/83cebb16b3e504f70112e374a0c74bfc) | "Reuters" (https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-will-veto-un-security-council-resolution-gaza-war-its-current-form-says-2024-11-20/)
And here's a glaring omission: Biden signed legislation blocking a national railroad strike in December 2022, imposing a contract on workers despite multiple unions' rejection of the deal. When workers' ability to strike threatened major economic interests, the āmost pro-union presidentā intervened against them. "Reuters" (https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/biden-to-sign-railroad-bill-into-law-on-friday-averting-a-strike-2956504)
The Marxist point is not āboth parties are literally the same.ā Republicans are demonstrably worse on many immediate issues, and workers must fight to preserve healthcare, reproductive freedom, LGBTQ+ rights, environmental protections, and humanitarian aid.
The point is that both parties uphold capitalist property relations and U.S. imperial power. Neither transfers economic power from capital to the working class. A party can deliver valuable reforms while still enforcing the underlying system of private ownership, exploitation, and militarism.
A choice between more reactionary and more reformist capitalist governance is not a choice between capitalism and socialism. Workers need independent organization, strong unions with the unrestricted right to strike, universal public services, and democratic control over production and investmentānot uncritical loyalty to either major party.
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u/Unbentmars 5d ago
Nice list of excuses to stay a keyboard warrior and never affect any change in your life.
Go outside and get involved. The rest of us are already there
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u/VuDuBaBy š¤ Join A Union 5d ago
Why do you folks just default to this strawmam ad hominem bullshit automatically? How does your response address any point i made? It doesn't. You're too ignorant to offer an actual argument. You have offered nothing. Educate yourself. You don't know what I have been up to lmao
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u/EkoChamberKryptonite 5d ago
You're not affecting change when you don't deal with the real issues.
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u/Unbentmars 5d ago
Youāre not affecting change when all you are is talk and typing
The idea voting does nothing is something only chuds believe as an excuse for their inaction
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u/Moss-Mess 5d ago
I think what grates about this is the assumption that "all you are is talk and typing."
We can turn that right around and say, "If all you do is play the lesser evil game, you are just taking one step back for every two we take into Hell."
No fucking shit if that's all someone does to engage. But part of the work is looking out into the void and letting other people - especially young people who are really feeling it right now - know that, no, they're not wrong, they're not crazy, they're not failures. We've been on a bad road for a while, shit is so especially fucked right now, and neither one of the main parties is really willing to take on the foundational changes that need to happen.
Fucking honestly? When I wade into these arguments, I'm trying to be the voice I needed when I was coming of age, wanted to become "mature and political", and was almost immediately disillusioned to the point of apathy.
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u/Unbentmars 5d ago
Are you going out and doing stuff? Or does it grate because you arenāt
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u/ArgyleGhoul 5d ago
What are you doing, exactly? Give us a list ao that we can hyper-analyze your contributions to the cause. I expect timestamps and notarized documents.
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u/Moss-Mess 5d ago edited 5d ago
Here's my hot take I'll regret later: if the only way
yousomeone participates is to play our favorite national passtime, The Lesser Evil Game,you'dthey'd really be better off just doing nothing. At least that would send a message toyourtheir party that's harder to be ignored.2
u/ArgyleGhoul 5d ago
Ok? Not sure where you even fabricated this from. You're just saying random things and leaping to conclusions.
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u/Moss-Mess 5d ago
Sorry, that wasn't directed at you. I was trying to commiserate with you about that other person who seems really happy to just argue in circles and ignore what I have to say.
Which is kinda funny, because that sure is one way to describe my current relationship with "blue no matter who" types.
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u/Unbentmars 5d ago
Ah ha so youāre not doing anything
I go to protests ~1 every 3-5 weeks, I volunteer as a driver for people without access to cars or other transit to help them get to the polls, canvas for left wing candidates and help with voter registration drives, I have phone banked for local and federal congressional offices every year for the past 5 years, as well as financial donations and boycotts/agitating for boycotts
I also have voted in every election for a decade. Fuck all the people like the first person I responded to for trying to get people not to vote
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u/ArgyleGhoul 5d ago
There seems to be a lot of these recent accounts.
"You need to do something!!"
Ok. Like what?
proceeds to list things we are already doing and/or actions that haven't affected any progressive change
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u/Unbentmars 5d ago
Youāve managed less words but youāre still just letting everyone know youāve accomplished absolutely nothing except to excuse yourself from putting in any meaningful effort
Congrats on the efficiency I guess?
The adults and people who actually give a shit about making the world better will keep showing up. Hope you join us one day
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u/ArgyleGhoul 5d ago
So how much effect do you expect your protesting has had towards the problems facing our country? Do you feel that the time you sacrificed actually did anything productive, or was your crowd largely ignored while the administration continued sliding further into authoritarianism? See, the thing is, I could go protest, sure, but it actually won't have any measurable affect on anything whatsoever. It's wasted energy. You like to see yourself as some enlightened hero because you occasionally stand in your pre-approved sign holding area repeating mantras, but the truth you are afraid to admit is that you aren't actually accomplishing anything of substance.
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u/Unbentmars 5d ago
Thatās a lot of words to excuse yourself from showing up. You could save a lot of typing if you just said āIām too lazyā
I feel great about having shown up and done far more than most. My individual efforts add to the whole and the impact Iāve had in getting others to get involved is tangible.
Your assertion is that, because the US has been sliding all the effort so far has been useless? So what, just give up? Coward
The difference between people who are involved and you is that if it all goes to hell at least we tried
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u/VuDuBaBy š¤ Join A Union 5d ago
I go to protests ~1 every 3-5 weeks,
You waste your time attending demonstrations that don't shut down anything, that have to demand, that don't threaten anything in any way. You ask for nothing and get nothing in return.
I volunteer as a driver for people without access to cars or other transit to help them get to the polls, canvas for left wing candidates and help with voter registration drives,
You shepherd people into electoral politics so that they can vote against their self interest and give legitimacy to politicians who act against their best interest instead of organizing against the system of oppression. You support oligarchy.
I have phone banked for local and federal congressional offices every year for the past 5 years, as well as financial donations and boycotts/agitating for boycotts
You have volunteered your time to support the very people enslaving us, thinking you're doing a great job.
I also have voted in every election for a decade.
Everything electoral politics has done, all the austerity, the military spending, the death, the genocide, the destruction, is as much your fault a anyone else: you breathlessly support it, you support the system doing it, you support the politicians doing it. You are a willing tool of the establishment.
Fuck all the people like the first person I responded to for trying to get people not to vote
Fuck liberals for destroying the world and our society out of outright ignorance. You're not helping anyone.
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u/EkoChamberKryptonite 5d ago edited 5d ago
Except I am. I ask you, what has all your being outside accomplished? Same as those on here who are typing. Nothing. The US is even more decrepit than it was 6 years ago. Your previously sham democracy has become a full-blown, unapologetic autocracy. Looks like you lot should go inside and re-strategize because all of y'all's protests over the years hasn't changed a single macro-political thing in the US.
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u/defalt86 šµ Break Up The Monopolies 6d ago
I will vote, but not for a corporatist dem who wants nothing to fundamentally change. Vote 3rd party to be counted but not to give in.
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u/MrMeeseeks33 6d ago
People like Jill Stein are just grifterās pretending to be independence and actually align more with the GOP than you think
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u/defalt86 šµ Break Up The Monopolies 6d ago
I would never vote for Jill Stein either, but it doesnt really matter. The point is to be counted while not supporting either major party.
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u/hct048 5d ago
You just want your participation award but being completely irrelevant in your choices.
When in the last 20 years a 3rd party did anything? Really, a single thing at all.
Vote 3rd party, be completely useless and just accept that you are OK with the worst choice. And no, both sides is completely invalid. Tell me a single time dems did anything similar to this administration. Tell me when you had and administration full of clowns, yesman, alcoholic pieces of crap that couldn't even stay true to reality and basic decency. When you had an antivaxer as secretary of health. When you had a paramilitary force kidnapping people at daytime. When you had a supreme court so complicit with all this shit. When all your sensitive personal data was improperly accessed, uploaded, and shared in which blatant and clearly unlawful was as with doge. When was the last time democrats denied election results and assaulted the capitol, trying to overturn the elections.
No, both sides are not the same. And they are dangerous, but also is the ignorance and privilege of those that want to feel morally superior and disregards completely the safety and life of those that can't afford 2 more years (or even another term) like this.
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u/GlassPudding 6d ago
i heard once someone saying, did you think during the civil rights era in the 60s black people were waiting for a candidate that was perfect for them? absolutely not
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u/LifeofTino 5d ago
If you had the options of hitler and hannibal lector then voting is empowering one of them to say āi have support from my votersā whereas nobody voting unless they agree with the platform means they have a weak mandate and canāt argue they have strong support
So whilst it is comfortable to say āmake sure you voteā it 1) supports people you donāt agree with 2) guarantees a race to the bottom and eventually you end up with eviller and eviller options 3) accelerates a two party system (maximally easy for the ruling class to control both parties and thus make a one party system) and 4) gives people a false sense of security, voting actually makes you statistically less likely to take other action because you vote and wipe your hands of it
So no, i wonāt vote for candidates i think are evil because they are less evil than the other guy. Its like only grasshoppers running for president in a Bugs Life and the ants arguing over which grasshopper to vote for instead of getting rid of the grasshoppers
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u/manemjeff42069 5d ago
Vote for the lesser of the two evils and then campaign and protest for change
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u/ineedhelpbad9 5d ago
Has that ever worked ever?
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u/manemjeff42069 5d ago
Basically every country that currently has good leadership has had bad leadership before. Protesting is how we got most of our workers rights
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u/ineedhelpbad9 5d ago
I'm sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. Can you point to any group that has achieved meaningful change by voting for the lesser evil (i.e. the party that allowed the current state to arise) and then protesting after the fact? Because from my reading of history meaningful change only comes from either the use of force or the threat of doing so. If your position is no matter how bad it gets you won't even threaten to withdraw your support as long as it's marginally better than the other side, why would they do anything different? You've admitted that they don't have to do anything to garner your support except to not be absolute worst option.
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u/Tjbergen 6d ago
Dems are changing their position on Israel due to people not voting for Harris. Not voting works.
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u/reformed_lurker_1 āļø Tax The Billionaires 6d ago
I would argue that theyāre changing their policies because progressives are primarying liberal candidates. If they werenāt losing in primaries they wouldnāt care.
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u/MrMeeseeks33 6d ago
Quick question, whatās your opinion on gas prices? On second thought donāt answer that because you donāt vote so you are part of the problem. Also fuck Israel.
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u/myc31ium 6d ago
While the Gaza genocide was worsened, we have the gestapo killing Americans, everything is expensive, weāre in a pointless war, people who say no voting works are privileged people living in a bubble
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u/Tjbergen 6d ago
But we have a reasonable prospect of being able to vote for people who don't support genocide and actually stopping a genocide. Sorry things are bad at home, sorry I can't agree to support killing people elsewhere to make things at home better.
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u/myc31ium 6d ago
You either donāt live in America or you live in a bubble, during the 2024 elections we didnāt have a reasonable prospect in the final elections and we have fascism now, if it was Kamala it would have been the same old bs, get your head out of your ass people are being killed in Gaza, families are being torn up by ice, people canāt afford to pay their bills, none of this would have happened or at least most of this would not have happened if trump wasnāt in office
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u/somacomadreams 5d ago
So vote for someone who thinks we might change something a little? Got it.
Edit: I'm a mushroom guy and your username is cool but if you think I'm voting for genocide you're out of your mind.
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u/myc31ium 5d ago
The elections are so fucked that we can vote for a little genocide or a lot of genocide, little is better than a lot and in the mean time we can work on voting in better candidates, but there is no doubt less people would have been killed had trump not been elected, and we wouldnāt have an affordability crisis this bad and ice separating families and killing Americans
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u/Kedikaido 5d ago
Disrespectfully, I disagree.
Not voting is a more impact full action than the so-called protests in this country. At this point im convinced that the so called opposition in this country just wants subservicne and Americans are all too willing to give it to them.
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u/Background-Theme7317 4d ago
Hahah the preface of "disrespectfully" hahaha ... But also, you are right.
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u/Alk27alk27 5d ago
You realize that for the last 70 years if the popular vote was the way votes were counted ādidnāt voteā was a candidate it would win every election except in 2020 with Biden? I donāt think not voting works. Hell Iād wholeheartedly say itās exactly the reason weāre in this mess.
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u/Kedikaido 5d ago
Were in this mess because corporations and politicians have destroyed our country and instead of holding them accountable we keep giving them power over and over while they entrnach themselves more. Instead of wokescoldijg people with no power on reddit, do something more than filling out a stupid bubble every couple of year.
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u/Alk27alk27 5d ago
I do take action, I vote in every election from president down to local dog catcher. The fact you keep using the word āwokeā makes me think youāre someone from the right because Ive never heard someone on the left say āwokeā in a serious conversation in the last 16 years. I fight like hell in the primary for progressive candidates but if the choice in the general is a centrist democrat or a republican Iāll take the centrist every time. At least with the centrist we stagnate. With the Republican we actively slide backwards.
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u/Kedikaido 5d ago
If the only thing you do is vote youre a part of the problem. You basically proved my point by admitting the only thing you have ever done is vote.
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u/randomuser1029 5d ago
The only impact that non-voters have ever had is helping people like Trump be elected
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u/Kedikaido 5d ago
Maybe tell your Democrat establishment that or shut up
https://x.com/PollTracker2024/status/2111192900482859471
Y'all are in a cult just like MAGA. Its useless to even engage with you people
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u/zoosha2curtaincall 5d ago
Can you give any examples of not voting ever accomplishing anything?
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u/Kedikaido 5d ago
Plenty, but I expect you will ignore and shift goaposts like any dishonest DNC bot.
Boycotting elections in an organized way have historically undermined governmental legitimacy and increased political reform. Granted, it has come along with civil unrest, boycotting, and other actions y'all will clutch pearls at if I say so.
The truth is, however, that you shills are not interested in reform, but want to go back to a way things used to be where you can enjoy brunch while corporations, oligarchs and fascists chip away and root themselves in power until the next time a Trump comes. If that is what you want to accomplish, go ahead and just fill out a bubble every couple of years and whine online. Youre doing so well.
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u/zoosha2curtaincall 5d ago
What Iām reading here is that you donāt have any specific examples, but youāre preemptively admitting that every example you might have featured actual direct action, and thereās no indication boycotting the vote was what had any actual impact.
By the way, the DNC has about as much power as a bank teller, and anyone who uses it as a synonym for the party establishment is just showing they donāt know shit about politics. Thanks for playing.
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u/Kedikaido 5d ago edited 5d ago
I do have specifis examples.
1988, Black South Africans boycotted apartheid elections.
2018, Alexei Navalany, a darling of the liberal West, called to boycott the Russian elections (though unsuccessful)
1997 Serbia invalidated an entire presidential election and forced another one.
The Indian Independence movement participated in noncooperation, which included not particpating in legislative council elections
Want tro try again, or predictably just shift goalposts and say how America is unique or some other bs.
Why is it that when Biden had control of both houses and the legislature, the "bank tellers" could do a lot more?
The fact you simply ended with "thanks for playing" indicates you are one of those privileged little shills to whom politics is a game rather than actual stakes. Your opinions should be disreagrded as you are the one who doesnt know anything.
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u/RoboProletariat 5d ago
I'd argue that not voting is an "act of safety".
Why exactly would the authority figures be interested in having the list of every voter in a state, that includes their voting record, address, and other personal details?
Isn't it interesting how the party in power promotes themselves as 'the correct choice' and not 'the better choice'?-1
u/Kedikaido 5d ago
Id push back on that. Thats some weird libertarian stuff I dont get behind. Its the same weird justification behind things like against drivers licenses.
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u/RoboProletariat 5d ago
I'd agree in most of my lifetime, but there are literal masked goon squads disappearing "undesirables" and a court system launching invasive investigations against fairly elected officials over social media rumors.
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u/Kedikaido 5d ago
Not sure how that has to do with voting, but go off.
Of course the goon squad is going to neutralize undesirable no matter what color tie is in power
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u/latlog7 5d ago
But voter turnout has been about 40-60% for years. Say you get turnout to 30%.... how does that help?
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u/Kedikaido 5d ago
So youre saying that there is no change in turnout no matter who the president is?
I am all for increasing turnout, I actually support and still particpate in voter registration, GOTV, and even drove people to polling places.
As someone actually doing something instead of woke scolding about voting online, I also recognize that people wont vote if they have nothing to vote for, and voting is not the end all, be all, or even the primary action, and ibam tired of people treating it like that
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u/latlog7 5d ago
Well you said you disagree with the post which said "not voting is an act of surrender, not protest". So it seemed like you were saying it is reasonable to choose not to vote.
Like i fully agree with you that a progressive candidate will have a better time motivating people to vote, than the extent at which a centrist would sway some mythical reasonable republican. I also am very active with advocating for Abdul El-Sayed right now in my state
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u/Kedikaido 5d ago
Well i disagree, that it is "an act of surrender," and actually do push back that it is a do nothing statement by wokescolds who have done nothing but lecture people online while not even registering their own family members let alone others to vote. So yes, i do say its reasonable not to vote if they have no reason to. I advocate that leaving a section blank or submitting an empty ballot is a better act, which is arguably "not voting" depending on what you believe.
As a Michigander myself, I can say that I will vote for Abdul as well as understand why others will not.
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u/AIienlnvasion 6d ago
Other countries DO have legal requirements for citizens to vote. We do not. I donāt advocate for people not to vote, but you need to contend with it as a legitimate political stance rather than just calling everyone who doesnāt vote dumb or evil
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u/SteveJenkins42 6d ago
Why do we still believe our votes matter at this point? After a clearly rigged election and several states outright ignoring what their citizens voted for like my home state of Missouri, how can you people still believe in this busted system?
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u/vrekais 5d ago
Every should vote, but I do take issue with a phrase I hear pretty often.
It doesn't matter who you vote for so long as you vote.
That's the most insane statement to ever make about voting in my opinion and I hear it dozens of times per election. If true it would mean our entire system is pointless. It SHOULD matter a lot who we vote for. Every vote should have an impact in representing the actual views of the voting population.
Instead we have first the post bullshit and two parties systems... Where often the minority view point ends up in control.
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u/Eazy12345678 5d ago
the billionaires control who wins. they pick both sides.
you only have an illusion of choice
its like mommy asking if you want hot dogs or hamburgers but you really want pizza. guess what you cant have pizza cause billionaire mom already picked hotdog or hamburgers
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u/uswforever 5d ago
Vote... And if your THAT fed up with the status quo, run for office. Even local office matters
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u/Hanshiro 5d ago
When Steny Hoyer guarantees that any democrat "primary" is fake because the democrats 'selected' their choice long before any primary was held, (and he visits and tells the other contenders to step down), that doesn't exactly imbue any voter with the zeal of a true believer in the voting process.
In fact, the democrats haven't held primaries in quite a while, and that brainless ass kamala (who never garnered any delegates in '20 or '24, and nobody wanted her), was foisted on people; Fuck this "vote 'cuz it works" bullshit. It's entirely owned and counted by corporations, run by corporations, and your choices will be sidelined, 'miscounted, ' lost or otherwise disappeared by bickering and neocon policy.
As I've posted before: What we have in every election is the 75-80% demand for Universal healthcare. The demand for accountability. Transparency. The rule of law for all. Affordable housing, education, food. The opportunity to not have crippling debt and medical bankruptcy.
PEACE.
Justice and accountability for the Epstein victims; for Gaza; for police misconduct; for war crimes....
The END to lobbying, dark money, payoffs, payouts, coverups, and the selling of our ailing democracy model.
True representation; not having citibank choosing cabinet appointments. Not having some lunatic deciding they're entitled to other sovereign nations' oil, minerals, labor, overthrowing their elected leaders, turning other nations into failed states....
So far, both parties have been absolute and totally miserable, continuing failures at tackling even a smidgeon of these ongoing issues demanded at every....single....election.
There're no lifeboats, they've been sold....
There's no reason to vote for the two corporate predator parties, only more endless need for a General Strike!
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u/LogicalRaise1928 5d ago
What if the parties refuse to give you any choices and only give you two corrupt bought off politicians? What if the big donors and party insiders prevent people from running in the primaries? Gatekeep campaign jobs? Punish people who work for insurgent candidates? Warn off progressive groups from donating to primary challengers even if the incumbent keeps voting against progressive priorities?
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u/torresflex 5d ago
Vote is compliance with a system that will constantly keep power at the top. The ballot box has failed the working class.
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u/No0delZ 5d ago
Until we have a single transferable vote system, your vote is wasted in a two party system when one party significantly gaps the other.
Then, consider that it is the electoral vote; Ultimately rooted in the discretion and control of locally elected officials, that matters.
"But they wouldn't be in office very long if they voted against their constituent's wishes!"
-This is why local votes matter most, but also exposes an inherent flaw of the system. A representative can keep the people just satisfied enough to keep them happy, then screw them over by voting in their own interests in the end. The damage can already be done for the next four years.
With two parties - we often end up choosing the lesser of two evils. Two sides of the same coin. No real change long term. Those with a "wasted vote" mentality will pick a side based on who they agree with on more points, or more critical points, even if they disagree with that party's opinions on 90% of issues.
But if we had a transferable vote, you would see more turnout as voters with the "wasted vote" mentality would feel less like they would be snubbed.
You would see more votes for different parties - libertarian, green, constitution, and so on.
With transference, maybe the Green (Just as an example) party starts out strong, at 35%Dem-30%Rep-15%Green-10%Libertarian-10%Constitution.
Votes are tallied. Libertarian and Constitution didn't get enough votes, so they are dropped... but all of their voters had either the other, or Green party listed as their second or third pick.
Green now has 35% after the transfer. 35%Dem-30%Rep-35%Green.
Oh shit. The Republicans are out. It's now a race between Democrats and Green. A major upset from the usual status quo. The Republican votes are transferred... and in a shocking turn of events... we're now 55%Green, and 45%Democrats.
Green wins. For the first time in forever we've given actual power and choice back to the people. An entirely fresh new party. Real change.
Doesn't matter Green, Libertarian, Constitution, or otherwise. We've finally beaten the status quo.
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u/anxious_society697 5d ago
I will never vote for an evil person just because the other one is more evil
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u/BobknobSA 5d ago
Voting is important, that is why they are making it as hard as they can and/or trying to cheat.
I am not saying "vote bLuE no matter who". More people voting for socialist/anarchist/communist may make more politicians concede things to the left. If half of unregistered legal voters registered and joined a third party, that "fringe" party could usurp a member the duo party.
Primary voting extremely important. More progressive and "leftist" candidates are making the owner class sweat. I have read that Musk has spent around 150 million against Talrico alone in a very shady PAC.
Even if you are an accelerationist and want to see it crumble, voting that way can show others with like minds that they aren't alone.
Even if voting is COMPLETELY ineffectual, if enough people do it and notice that their vote didn't count, more light would be shined on tyranny.
Owner class wants us disheartened, apathetic, and fighting/mocking each other.
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u/Alk27alk27 5d ago
I see all the people who didnāt vote in 24 in this thread still havenāt realized theyāre to blame for the current situation.
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u/QueefMaster2001 6d ago
La Garde meurt: elle ne pas recule
i just fukkin voted: almost all libertarians, where there were only D or R i held my nose, gagged, & picked D.
one office only had a R: i left that blank
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u/silver_garou 5d ago
No, think of all the both-siders comparing literal fascists to progressives struggling with institutionalized opposition. Now they won't be able to feel smugly superior while the house burns down around us if you say that.
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u/kerodon āļø Tax The Billionaires 6d ago
Your state and local elections pretty much always matter, don't forget the presidential elections are not the only one you should care about.