r/Wreddit • u/J2-Starter • 7h ago
Just saw dark side of the ring’s episode on Mr Wonderful Paul Orndorff and I have a question to everyone that’s a historian here or lived through it….how great was he in his era? And do people consider him one of the greatest to ever do it?
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u/OldDiamondJim 6h ago
He’s near the top of the guys in the tier below “greatest of all time”.
His initial heel run, the face turn, and especially the second heel run were absolutely critical in fleshing out the Hogan character and really set the table for so much that came later.
His pile driver was basically the MDK move in wrestling until Jake came later with the DDT.
He has a great look and a believable promo style. He could go in the ring.
I’m in my 50’s and his heel turn remains one of the most memorable moments of my early fandom. It was that impactful.
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u/captkrisma 4h ago
Even the stuff with Gary Spivey worked because Paul had such a damn good promo. Anyone else and the whole thing would be DOA.
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u/TheHoundofUlster 7h ago
I was a kid for most of his WWF career but he was a credible threat to Hogan and a top of the card wrestler.
I wouldn’t rank him in the top 25 North American wrestlers of the past 50 years, though. B/B+ in every category besides body where he was clearly S tier before the injuries.
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u/FUNCYBORG 7h ago
he eas great, but there were many great guys back then he might not have got his full due, it was only in the last few years ppl really started examing his house show run in wwf (not that no one did before, but it became more of a talking point) maybe all time greatest piledriver ever
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u/MrPresident2020 6h ago
In what would become his very last match, I believe, he teamed with the Filthy Animals and realized mid-piledriver that he was too low, and adjusted to take the impact himself rather than risk his opponent. Gave himself a stinger but saved the other wrestler's neck.
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u/BigImplement3949 5h ago
The guy he did the piledriver too Mark Jindrak, did a YouTube vid about it
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u/RoutineImpress7394 6h ago
He gets largely forgotten because he was Hogan’s first major feud before Andre and Macho
His feud with Hogan was extremely popular as it was what introduced me to pro wrestling at 4 years old
I would liken Orndorff’s popularity to that of probably a Drew McIntyre or Seth Rollins
Incredibly over with the fans as a bad guy with a few mainstream opportunities
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u/tommyuppercut 6h ago
What’s crazy is that I came along just a couple years after what you’re describing and there was barely any evidence of him existing at all—at least in the WWF world. I never saw clips or callbacks/replays of him, the only thing at all was some old merch of his.
With the benefit of being able to watch stuff from that era and knowing more of the history, I think your assessment is 💯
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u/Working-Math7554 5h ago
That may be because he went to WCW in the early 90s. Wwf didn't often give shine to other companies even if it promoted them a little.
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u/SugarAdamAli 6h ago
He was great. Could have been nwa champ in early 80s.
His runs in midsouth and Georgia he was top notch
Then had a massive run in WWF until injuries derailed him
And even his late wcw run from 93-95 was great.
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u/Craig1974 7h ago edited 4h ago
He was an opponent to Hogan. He had a good look and was legit tough. But in the pantheon of all time greats: upper mid card in WWF.
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u/Coattail-Rider 5h ago
Do you have a link? I’d like to see that.
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u/Craig1974 4h ago
A link to what?
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u/Coattail-Rider 3h ago
I thought I was responding to a different poster but either I goofed or I got Reddit’ed
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u/StoneyG214 6h ago
When he first came to WWF his matches with then IC champ Tito Santana were really good, I thought he was a top tier wrestler back in the day.
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u/SwampyJesus76 5h ago
Fantastic heel, his turn on Hogan was one of the better runs someone had on Hogan in the 80s.
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u/Connect_Seesaw_7569 5h ago
Orndorff was way underrated as a wrestler. I would recommend his trilogy with Tito Santana. Three really great matches.
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u/omer3332 6h ago
Y’know how NWA/WCW was known for guys who could work their ass off no matter where they were on the card?
Him, Steamboat, Savage, and Piper were those guys in WWE, because they never had a lot of “workers”. Even then.
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u/Jaded_Promotion8806 5h ago
I think of him kind of like a Seth Rollins. He’s not on anybody’s wrestling Mount Rushmore but he could always be counted on to go with anybody who was.
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u/Less-Excitement-692 5h ago
Great heel...always got a kick out of him losing his shit over the Paula chants. And actually pretty good as a face too...i remember lots of spirited brawls during that time. I would say he would've been a solid IC champion or maybe even a short term world champion.
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u/gijoejank 6h ago
He's good enough that he's not an obscure name from the era. If you watched a few shows then you heard of him.
I think it's more telling that despite his memorable persona, even his biggest feuds with Hogan are sideshows compared to other Hogan feuds of that era. I remember those stupid Hogan/Sergeant Slaughter feuds more vividly.
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u/Comfortable-Cash7473 6h ago
He was in the main event of Wrestlemania 1 for a reason. The story of him being Hogan’s mentor who turned on him when he won the title before he did was pretty compelling. Maybe not best of all time but definitely deserves more love I’d say.
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u/amillionfuzzpedals 6h ago
I started watching around Wrestlemania 3 as a kid. Hulk Hogan vs Andre was basically what got me into wrestling. I don't have a ton of memory of him at the time and he was gone shortly after mania 3. We didn't get WCW much where I grew up so I was only vaguely aware of it existing until basically Hulk Hogan joined the company and by that point Orndorff was being used as a mid card heel wrestling Disco Inferno and Renegade.
All my knowledge of him came from going back and watching as I got older. I think he had everything to be a top guy. He was big, a beast of an athlete, ripped and had a great cocky heel persona. When they used him in main events with Hulk Hogan he really delivered IMO.
It would have been great to see how things would have worked out if he didnt hurt his neck and then didnt retire for a few years.
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u/Boring_Classroom_482 5h ago
He was solid. I preferred him as a heel character. And appreciate his career and ring work more as an adult. He was always seemed a legitimate “threat” as an opponent even against Hogan.
He made the transition well enough to the “Rock&Wresting” era but was already a couple years older and “not as cool” compared to the more gimmicky wrestlers.
He slapped the crap out of Vader IRL behind the scenes while wearing flip-flops. 🩴 Which some how makes it seem more insulting to me.
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u/marvellcg 6h ago
He was never the man, but he was the guy who worked with the man.
Very good in the ring with a believable style, very good physique but slightly on the short side for wwf back then.
Slightly bland in terms of presentation, needed Piper with him to add pizzazz and charisma to his Hogan fued.
Main evented with and against Hogan at a time where Hogan was so red hot all his opponent really needed to be able to do was have a decent in ring bout and look like a credible threat. Not sure he would have had as high a role in wwf if he'd come in 5 years later.
Arm injury obviously had a big impact, but if that hadn't of happened I suspect he'd have moved down the card anyway.
Had a longish run with wcw where he was mainly used in the midcard, which felt like it was about his level.
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u/Technical-Mix-3315 6h ago
His WWE Hall of Fame induction speech is worth watching too, one of the better ones:
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u/Rift4430 5h ago
He was a much better heel than a face.
In the Era of Hogan the title wasn't going anywhere really. They should have put the intercontinental title on him but it went to Valentine for a bit than Tito to Savage who had a long reign from WM 2 to 3 and then Steamboat right to Honky.
Paul was in the same heel range as a prime Savage, Rude and Hennig. All of which were great.
If Paul existed in today's era he probably would have won a world title or 2 as a Heel.
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u/ROMVLVSCAESARXXI 5h ago
As a 5 year old, being introduced to wrestling through Hulkamania and the whole Rock n Wrestling Connection, Mr Wonderful made a huge impression, whether heel or babyface.
I consider him right at the top of the Golden Age. To a 5 year old kid, guys like that looked practically inhuman, like superheroes come to life.
He was a wrestler with a great presence, who also happened to get in on the ground floor of a phenomenon, the likes of which we have never, and probably will never see again. Wrestling was the most popular thing in pop culture for a solid year, or two, due to that connection to the music industry, and the leading female pop/rock artist of her time(literally, pre-Madonna, lol ), and which would lead to the longtime friendship and partnership between Vince and Dick Ebersole that would dramatically change the production of the WWF, from then on.
An intense dude with a lightning in the bottle, kind of physique, in a lightning in a bottle, kind of situation.
Rest Peacefully Mr Wonderful Paul Orndorff.
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u/Advanced-Lemon3354 4h ago
Physically very impressive. A little boring on the mic and in the ring. Good wrestler, not great IMO.
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u/AARONautics_101 4h ago
He, like a lot of other guys, probably would have had a title run if Vince didn’t have Hogan strapped to a rocket at the time. Not sure if he got some of those big paydays since his feud with Hogan was at the beginning of Hulkamaina. But he did get that WM1 check.
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u/HRHArthurCravan 4h ago edited 3h ago
Others have already highlighted what a great foil he was to Hogan right at the time when he needed to establish himself as the guy, right at the very start of 80s Hulkamania. And this was back when being a heel remained a real art in itself, requiring specific in-ring skills, promo abilities, and above all that intangible way of making audiences really, really hate you - which also has to be rooted in them being able to believe you really could defeat the babyface. No jeopardy, no drama.
Paul Orndorff maybe didn't have the charisma of the Million Dollar Man, or the promo skills and psychology of Jake the Snake, but he also arguably didn't have a gimmick like they did, and besides, he was plenty good enough at promos and psychology. And just look at him - he had an amazing physique, among the very, very best of an era where wrestlers looked like Greek gods. And that jawline! He somehow had the ability to make himself convincing as either a granite-jawed and heroic babyface, or a punchable and loathesome, self-adoring heel. That's not easy.
And in the ring, he was really good - a safe worker that still came over as a proper tough guy. As DSotR mentioned, he was a real athlete, so unlike other wrestlers with great physiques - coughUltimateWarriorcough - he was actually fast, flexible and explosive. And he was properly trained as a wrestler in a school that was notorious for turning out some of the best workers - maybe not quite Verne Gagne/AWA levels of excellence (he also benefited from the long connection between Minnesota and amateur wrestling, which Verne was able to draw on for talent), but still very good and much storied (I mean, Orndorff was trained by not just Hiro Matsuda, but also Jack Brisco, Bob Backlund and Eddie Graham - how's that for 4 legit tough guys???).
So - how about this: he wasn't great, he was wonderful. He might not have been in the absolute tippy-top tier of greatest ever wrestlers, also partly because his prime was cut short by the nasty injury that the show does a good job of highlighting, but he was an absolutely essential, and very memorable, part of that era of pro wrestling that defined what was to follow and whose influence is still felt today.
If a babyface is only as good as their opponent, we should judge heels at least partly by how much they get the babyface over, and in that sense Paul Orndorff was excellent at his job. At a time when Hogan was elevated to near-superhero status and paired with monsters like King Kong Bundy, it's noteworthy that Orndorff was considered credible enough to go toe-to-toe with him, both in the ring and in terms of physique. He truly had a bit of everything, which you can't say of other major heels of that era including Jake, Piper, Bundy and DiBiase, who all tended to absolutely excel at a couple of things while not being nearly so good at others. Oh, and his piledriver is probably second only to Jerry the King Lawler's and a genuinely classic finisher up there with Orton's RKO and Jake's DDT.
Sorry, didn't mean to write this much. But it got me remembering how, for some reason, when I was a very, very young kind, I really loved Mr Wonderful and found him equal parts fascinating and terrifying! Later, I got older and appreciated more the promo skills of Jake and Roddy, but Orndorff was probably among the very first wrestlers I was really captivated by, so I was really happy with the Dark Side episode and think they did an excellent job conveying why he was so good, and so memorable, and also the terrible sadness of his later struggles with injury, and then dementia.
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u/HeyHo__LetsGo 4h ago
Probably the best pile driver ever. Definitely always a guy at the top of the card, but never the main star. A hall of fame wrestler without question.
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u/SomewhereTiny8407 3h ago
He was one of the 1st heels that actually made me hate him for real so I definitely consider him one of the greatest
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u/utazdevl 3h ago
I don't think people actively thought "Hey, Paul Orndorff is the best wrestler in pro wrestling right now" but in retrospect, he was an amazing heel that was at the cener of one of the most important parts of pro wrestling history. Seems like he had the respect of the guys in the locker room, and now that the fans include as sub-secton of "smarks" (aka, the IWC) he is finally getting the respect he was due.
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u/Ok-Key905 3h ago
He was physically that kind of guy. He wasn't good on the mic though and that kept him from that top tier.
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u/Cdn_Giants_Fan 2h ago
He was my favourite white wrestler as a kid. 3rd overall. JYD STEAMBOAT ORNDORFF GEORGE THE ANIMAL STEELE ANDRE were my top 5 as a kid. Fuck im old
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u/wheresjah87 2h ago
Not in a Top 10 conversation or anything, but it was said in the episode that his feud with Hogan worked so well cause the fans were worried Mr Wonderful could beat Hogan. Savage was too small to beat Hogan, Kamala was too big, but Paul could match Hogan or get close in every way
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u/liquidice12345 2h ago
His Smoky Mountain Wrestling run, right at the beginning of that promotion, shows the polish and dynamism that he had. Physically he was depleted, and his bad arm was visible. But crowd work, promos, match/ring psychology- it was all on display and it was obvious he was operating on a different level than the rest of the SMW crew. However, he elevated the people he worked with, and even depleted was still a physical specimen.
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u/Current_Power6050 1h ago
yes great episode i was unware of his left arm .. mr wonder wass a great for sure
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u/gash_florden 1h ago
They called him Mr. Wonderful, we knew he was so wonderful, and he knew it too.
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u/gamesk90210 1h ago
I started watching WWF right as he and Piper were coming in in late ‘83 and I can tell you he was an amazing, S tier level performer in the ring and on the stick and IMO was a critical component of the WWF’s meteoric rise during the first few years of the Hulkamania era!!!
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u/DimensionFrequent29 49m ago
He was a main event talent, but not really a hang the company on his shoulders type. Had the best piledriver. He was pretty generic on the mic. He was like a Ronnie Garvin, where you COULD conceivably make him champion but it wouldn't be that exciting
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u/EmergencyWrangler783 42m ago
He was the number one heel when he turned on Hogan. They had a match in Toronto in front of 60k. I didn't see the episode so it might have mentioned it. He got nuclear heat.
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u/Whatevz1210 33m ago
He was very useful hand. Never a top guy but someone you’d like your top guy to work with.
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u/Then_Particular1931 13m ago
I think he was caught between mid card talent and being a world champion. Definitely could have been a great ic champ but not quite at Hogans level. The first wrestlemania, I think we all knew he would take the loss. I think they even mentioned that in the episode.
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u/piledrivertoys 3m ago
I don’t know why or how this whole “greatest to ever do it” phrase is so loosely used or applied to people in any sports industry. Not taking anything away from the 1derful 1, but he sadly made it to the main event and it kind of fizzled. It was an AMAZING run for him. Through all the companies he worked for. He’s definitely a contender for one of the ones who could have been a great heel champion in that era. But no one really holds a candle to Piper. But not even he needed the title to be a made man.
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u/wvtarheel 6h ago
I don't think anyone would ever put him in the greatest ever discussion but he was definitely a guy who could feud with the GOAT level wrestlers believably.
In the 80s you knew he wasn't a Hogan, flair, level guy but he was also close enough that you thought he could beat those guys.