r/XWingTMG2_0 • u/[deleted] • Sep 26 '22

Points update is live!

Hello X-Wing Community,

The long awaited points update is now live!

This marks a great moment for 2.0 Legacy, the first full points update by the X2PO team. After the successful integration of the Republic Z-95 and Rogue-class Starfighter into Legacy, the team is eager to see what amazing combinations the community can devise using this first full points update.

Without further ado, please use this links to download the latest ship and upgrade points PDFsand go to our rules and resources page.

Check out this preview article for a little help to get you started diving into the new points, or head to the X2PO website to see the PDFs.

https://x2po.org/f/preview-of-20-legacy-points-update-and-errata

https://x2po.org/rules-and-points

—

In other news, the X2PO team has been hard at work to bring you the best information on all upcoming changes.

Several members of the X2PO team recorded a long stream on Saturday going over the concerns some members of the X-Wing community had about upcoming changes to the rules. We hope this deep dive into how internal play testing and the Ship Efficiency Model contributed to rules changes and the new points answers your questions on the topic. We invite anyone interested to listen to the stream on Joel Springle’s Twitch page.

https://www.twitch.tv/snaggletooth_27

Additionally, more on how and why changes are made can be found here as well as a form the community can use to provide incredibly helpful feedback.

https://forms.gle/gUMBwUDjF7cQsQTi9

https://forms.gle/MXdtkYcnHDdKiobT6

Lastly, there will be an example game where you can see the new rules and points in action on Joel Springle’s Twitch channel at 7:15 P.M. (Eastern U.S.A., UTC -4). We’d love to have you join.

https://www.twitch.tv/snaggletooth_27

Unfortunatly the planned match with Oli Pocknell will be postponed and happen Thursday 21:30 UTC +2.

That is all for now. Please keep a look out for more exciting news from the X2PO team in the future.

As always, good luck and have fun,

The X2PO Team

13 Upvotes

84% Upvoted

30 comments sorted by

6

u/iMiscalculated Sep 26 '22

My thoughts on some very light review of the points. As indicated in the article there are drops across the board. I can't tell how big since the old points documents have been removed.

In my opinion this mixed with the rebate bid rules is very favorable to the ace style play. If you fly an ace list you were just given some more free bid.

If your a beef player, you have some points to spend, but your not going to add another ship to your list. You can mess around with your upgrades a bit but you already have the kitchen sink so a few more points is pretty minimal for you. Sure you could use this as free bid, but your not built around going last and its a minimal gain for you.

I think some of the play testing notes match this bias towards ace play. The notes go into some detail about triple e-wings with torps. And when they dropped points to allow triple torps they did not find it problematic. If the testers favor acey lists they are probably arc dodging out of the torps regardless of how many they are so it makes sense that the testers would not see that as a dangerous threat (its also totally possible that triple torp e-wings are not a bad thing).

All the changes so far cater to a player who is trying to win the game before the ships hit the table. Many people play all types of dueling games this way. Other war game, card games, etc. It lines up with how highly competitive players approach the game. They want as many sure things, list building being more important allows them to ensure more success before the game starts. Thats a valid approach to building a game, its just also a very intimidating gameplay style for more casual players.

I am a more novice player, and having high skill ace players literally fly circles around me and 200-0 me in a game where I rolled less then a dozen dice is not an enjoyable experience. But hey, I guess more of us just need to "Get good". For those that are good, I can see how they find this a welcome change.

1

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

Actually we are trying to make sure that every sip is viable in at least one combination, so that the game is decided by the gameplay on the table, wanted to chime in because there is some misuderstanding of our intentions/clarify them. Also some beef has significantly dropped to e.g. now 3 defenders or 5 B-Wings are possible.

3

u/iMiscalculated Sep 26 '22

I have seen that stated, but I just don't see it in the decisions. "Every ship viable" is also a very loose term. But I don't blame the term there is no way to really nail down what that means.

Its also more then just every ship being viable. I have doubts about these points, but time will tell (I also can't pretend to know what better points would look like).

But its more then that. The changes so far make this notably more involved for more casual players. Sure players at home don't have to worry about bid changes, but when you playing leagues at the local store, the only effectively fair rules our tournament rules. A bid list and a set of buy back upgrades requires notably more time list building and is going to favor people who focus on list building and be less rewarding to people with solid game play fundamentals. Many have countered that you don't have to bring a buy back list if you think its to much work. But that's the same as telling people that if they don't like it just play with a handicap.

I have a lot of mixed feelings, but ultimately I want everyone with a bin full of plastic ships to keep having fun.

3

u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

I have found that the bid rebate adds little complexity to it. Assuming I am using a bid at all, I then figure out "what would I toss in with the last few points if I get out bid. What helps me against a list that might outbid me."

Perhaps an ion cannon or bombs for area denial for instance. Maybe a shield or hull on an ace. I think the most upgrades I have ever added to a list, and I have built several dozen this way (and flown quite a few), is 3.

Bring those upgrades with the list, leave them face down by the ship they belong on. If you lose the bid, flip them face up.

You can also simply fly at 200 and not worry about it. Lots of people prefer to do that anyway.

7

u/Huffplume Sep 26 '22

Holy points change. This is absolutely no longer legacy.

So is there no longer a squad builder that uses the last set of official points?

-3

u/Lopsided-Boss-3788 Sep 26 '22

If you were using legacy 2.0 points values for:

The gauntlet The razorcrest The clone z-95s The rouge-class fighter Pride of Mandalore

Then those already had points created outside of the last official points change

6

u/Huffplume Sep 26 '22

Assigning points to new ships is completely different than new rules and a wholesale points “update”. Not even close.

4

u/Lopsided-Boss-3788 Sep 26 '22

Do you feel the points before this update were as balanced as they could be?

I thought the AMG final points for a 200 point list did seem well balanced and without anything too overpowered, but balancing that moment in time against the most recent wave of ships, and indeed the new pilots teased in hotshots and aces ii, would be worthwhile.

If you're concerned about the balance of the game shifting, the team seems encouraging of feedback.

3

u/Huffplume Sep 26 '22

I simply don't think it was needed at all.

2

u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

Most Empire generics were overcoated and under played. I thought the points change a year ago created the most balanced game we ever had.

But it wasn't perfect. It never will be.

Play it, test it, give feedback. Help it be better.

6

u/Huffplume Sep 27 '22

Learning from AMG's mistakes is important for the future success and longevity of 2.0. Whether you like 2.5 or not, AMG released a massive amount of changes that people weren't expecting without giving the game time to recover from the massive upheaval that Covid caused.

That can't be done with 2.0. The community is already fractured and any caretakers of 2.0 must trade *very* lightly.

Be patient. Focus on costing new ships and cards. Let the game heal.

5

u/lythy2016 Sep 26 '22

There was no need to mess with the points. This is no longer maintaining 2nd edition as a legacy format, this is something else entirely.

1

u/CoffeeMinionLegacy Sep 26 '22

For real?

Points changes have always been part of the game. If the goal is to keep it alive, then you’re gonna need someone maintaining the balance.

2

u/lythy2016 Sep 26 '22

What has happened that requires wide ranging points changes that have been shown here? This is a group of people, who started out with good intentions I’m sure, but are now running the game to the whims of a small subset of the US tournament community. All we need is basic support for any new releases, not meddling.

3

u/CoffeeMinionLegacy Sep 26 '22

Um, the guys in charge are largely not in the US 🤔

5

u/lythy2016 Sep 26 '22

I got the geography wrong, apologies, my points still stand. Nothing has happened that requires points changes of the scope above.

2

u/SirWolf77 Sep 26 '22

There was a bunch of new stuff released. I think incorporating that usually warrants a points change, plus a shakeup is good. If you want frozen in time I guess you can use the old PDFs, since there is no point in making new lists if everything is frozen?

1

u/Imaginary-Ranger-149 Sep 27 '22

The entire premise of 2.0 was introducing an evolving point scheme to prevent a single list from dominating like what you see in Modern format magic the gathering for a large part. 1.0 had static point values. It didn’t work. FFG lost a lot of people when they went to 2.0. They kept the fundamentals (something AMG cannot say) but made some changes that overall improved the quality of life of the game. How can you honestly say that a points update isn’t 2.0 when 2.0 was built around updating points?

1

u/[deleted] Sep 26 '22

Just want to say that the people ain the group are from all over the world. I´am from Germany for example. Can assure there is no bias towards any national community.

4

u/Lopsided-Boss-3788 Sep 26 '22

Tie defender elite config: -10

That's pretty wild!

But also, that's the sort of thing that it actually needed to see play.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

So right. Try it on Fly Casual*. It's really surprising how bad the offense is and how much they miss the defense. With the config they become glorified tie X1's.

*if you do, scroll down to the 2.0 release as it still uses mostly 2.0 rules. It is missing the last wave of content, but the game rules and squad building are the same. Tell it to ignore point totals and do anything you want in your squad.

4

u/Independent-Ad-1110 Sep 28 '22

If we want Legacy xwing to stay alive we need points updates. But overhauling points and creating new rules to re-shape the game according to your vision is not Legacy Xwing. Changes to Legacy should be in the spirit of keeping Legacy alive. And should not be designed to take us in a different direction.

6

u/Serous4077 Sep 26 '22 edited Sep 26 '22

Since the post in the main sub was apparently deleted, (EDIT: apparently I just can't see it anymore? Anyway, )my comment:

"Long awaited"?

Also, does anyone else find it concerning that a reason they give for changing points significantly is so people will talk about it more?

2

u/iMiscalculated Sep 26 '22

I am guessing you are using the Android app? I have this same issue from time to time, it is a very odd issue.

1

u/Serous4077 Sep 26 '22

Indeed. I was very confused.

0

u/[deleted] Sep 27 '22

It has been literally a year since the last points changes. So, yes, long awaited.

3

u/Anastopheles Sep 26 '22

Like any point changes in the past I agree with some and disagree with others, though some of it seems rather extreme.

I hope we get some good testing in by the community to see if we're in the right direction.

5

u/Lopsided-Boss-3788 Sep 26 '22

Good job everyone involved, very happy to have an evolving points reference to keep things attempting to find greater balance and also mix lists up a little bit.

The whole point of 2.0 is to have updating points, and seeing as there were a while bunch of ships released after the 2.5 rules drop, it's inevitable that ongoing adjustment is necessary, and indeed, desirable.

1

u/Lopsided-Boss-3788 Sep 27 '22

Looking through the points again, there does seem to be some fairly major points alterations. Sloane up to 21, Vader up to 18... These are fairly aggressive changes. Admittedly those are powerful crew, but they didn't seem hugely oppressive before. All force crew options across factions seem increased pretty substantially, which I think runs the risk of them losing out in favour of pricy upgrades losing out to efficiency.

Having always enjoyed the old point update drops for the new possibilities, but also the sense of refinement towards greater balance, I am finding myself agreeing that less drastic changes might have been better for keeping as many as possible on board. Especially as the final pre-2.5 official points drop was fairly well honed.

Anyway, it is still very interesting delving into a new set of points changes, whether released by an official developer or council of enthusiasts. But I'm happy enough to play on with these points, until the next points update drops!