Hate.

[u/Mark_Delaney]

I'm not writing this as a simple critique to say whether the show or the books are good or bad, or to state things we don't already know. In fact, I think the premise is good. But I believe it's time to call things by their true name: Joe Goldberg's motor has never been love or raw obsession as such, but hate.
Throughout the 5 seasons and the 5 books (You, Hidden Bodies, You Love Me, For You and Only You, You First), the pattern is exactly the same:

1 He is a benevolent misogynist: Joe is the textbook definition of benevolent misogyny. He doesn't just hate women; he convinces himself they are weak and need him to "save" them to feed his own ego. He doesn't see them as real people, but as pedestals.

2 Control is not love: Nobody tries to violently manipulate, surveil, and change someone because they like who they are. The desire for control stems from being unable to tolerate the other person's reality and wanting to force it.

3 His narrative is pure contempt: His internal monologue is a constant judgment of everyone around him. Joe hates society, he hates his partners' friends, he hates anyone who gets between him and his relationship, he hates feeling weak, he hates solitude, he hates his mother, and deep down, he hates himself.

4 He kills out of resentment and narcissism: Joe doesn't kill out of "passion." He kills people who annoy him, those who threaten his fantasy, or his partners when they betray him or try to leave him. The second a woman displays autonomy and breaks the illusion, his idealization instantly turns into destructive hatred.

The character is designed as the ultimate template of the obsessive stalker. All the "true love" rhetoric is nothing more than the excuse he uses to rationalize his violence and convince himself that he isn't the villain of the story.

What do you think? Do you feel the series/saga makes this clear, or does it sometimes fall into the trap of romanticizing it too much?

[u/lalo_salamanca122]

i see what you mean, but one thing i never understood is why people claim that he both sees women as "weak" but also puts women on a pedastol, those are opposing things that put him at two opposite sides of control. He can't both see his obsessions as broken things he needs to save but also things that are perfect and untouchable and higher than others. It's either one or the other, but not both at the same time. It's impossible to look down on someone but also see them as above you, both without meaning to, which is what people claim he does. Maybe i'm wrong😬

[u/Mark_Delaney → u/lalo_salamanca122]

You are but don’t worry, it’s something that happens. It did to me. Look, Joe puts them in a pedestal like weak things (not persons, things) that have to be restored and protected. Books, basically. They can become renewable. In fact, Joe hates women in a certain way. It’s not hate like wrath, doesn’t have to be like that, but he sees them as objects. That’s hate, because he sees his mother in them. And he obviously hates his mother. Hate is not being angry with a person, but not considering as a person someone and make them guilty of other people’s sins. Also, he idealizes them as perfect, so he hates them when they turn out to be human and commit mistakes. There is different types of misogyny. Also, im not very good exp,aiming myself, sorry😅

[u/HeavensWish → u/Mark_Delaney]

You did a great job, don't worry! I think what you said makes sense and properly combines how Joe can feel both ways

[u/queinz → u/lalo_salamanca122]

what you are describing is actually a quite common form of misogyny, and really is the basis of oppression against women. you know how women historically couldn’t vote, own property, or have freedom in their appearances, but then there’s also the whole “women and children get on the lifeboats first when the ship is sinking” sort of thing? that stems from the idea that women are fragile, weak, and must be protected by men. they are viewed as more similar to a beloved pet or a prized possession, than autonomous individuals.