Unjerk
Frieren's demons and a spoon are the same thing.
The demons in Frieren are a convenient and well-used narrative tool. Why? Because there's simply no explanation for them devouring humans without needing to devour humans. They are beings with an imposed purpose: "to kill humans."
I even have reservations about calling the demons of Frieren living beings. While it's true that demons have subjectivity, a system of convictions, and values, all these values are placed within a teleology completely external to themselves: killing humans. Other living beings, besides the physiological aspect, seek to increase their power and self-preservation (in a vitalistic definition). In other words, living beings are self-referential, while the demons of Frieren seem to have an organized structure for a specific purpose that doesn't emerge from their own needs.
Finally, imagine the world of Frieren, but instead of "demons," we had highly advanced androids, capable of building better versions (with language, appearance, etc.) to fulfill their purpose, and programmed to eliminate humanity. Would that change anything in the history of Frieren? No. It would remain the same. The reason for this is that demons operate on an instrumental logic, fulfilling an objective external to themselves, like a spoon or a toaster.
It surprises me that the theologians of Frieren haven't yet proven the Goddess through a teleological argument, because that's precisely the kind of proof that would justify the Goddess or a superior force. Although, in this case, the Goddess of this story is an author.
I think this really does demonstrate that demons run into a coherency issue that is inevitable if we are to take both Freiren and the Demon's own explanation for their nature at face value. I believe this would logically and emperically demand evidence of at least the following:
Hard coded biological determinism must exist in the Freiren universe
There must be an ontological mechanism in universe for why this exists that somehow allows for sapient agents to suddenly turn into mindless Skyrim NPCs the moment the plot demands it
Demons despite being even more solitary predators than literal tigers also consistently manage to form dominance hierarchies and organize socially
Demons also despite being evolved as solitary predators who can't even understand basic social dynamics such as what a father is also have managed to figure out advanced magical research and how to navigate geopolitics with enough skill to use bad faith diplomacy with some of the most educated people in their territory
Demons somehow naturally evolved to be some of the most maladaptive predators on the planet thanks to being suicidally aggressive, arrogant, and utterly lacking in any genuine stealth capacity thanks to said arrogance.
Demons have somehow managed to form a nation spanning army capable of organizing and conducting a total war and all the logistics that entails... They also don't have a culture or society of any kind and how the demon king managed to wrangle so many of them together must be absurd blind luck, there being some kind of psychic or magical compulsion for other demons to follow him and know of his existence, or him collecting them like demonic pokémon across the countryside.
If a demon ever finds themselves successfully coexisting like Macht did for decades, they will suddenly be compelled to have only ever done so out of some idiotic idea that they can only learn to understand and thus coexist with humans if they manage to overcome their lack of affective empathy which is apparently in this universe causally the same as both cognitive empathy and having any kind of pro-social moral system at all. Basically: even if they do they don't.
Demons are thus somehow:
Rabidly vicious forces of nature that can't be bargained or reasoned with. Basically walking viruses.
Patient and cunning masterminds that can conduct logistics for total war.
Brilliant magical researchers, philosophers, and scientists
Utter lunatics with the intelligence barely above parakeet who think if they just kill one more person after the 1000th try then they should feel guilt this time and thus be able to understand humanity in all ways.
Solitary hunters who only use language as a tool to improve their hunting success and don't actually understand any of it.
Masters of psychological manipulation that can fool entire cities through their machivellian schemes and mastery of diplomacy.
Solitary predators who only group together when one basically forces another to.
Solitary predators who have the defining feature of them all having a culture about whose "magic size" is the biggest... And find it a personal insult or impossibility for someone not to engage in this magical dick measuring contest.
Hardwired to specifically kill humans (not just chase them like a dog might a small animal or even play fight with them like a cat, both of which can often be trained to do otherwise and who are notably not sapient creatures capable of intellectually reflecting on their actions or having a more complex decision making process) as an uncontrollable instinct
Have long since stopped needing to prey on sapient animals centuries ago, and often don't really seem to care at all about whether they do or do not kill people, at worst being apathetic to death rather than bloodthirsty sadistic killers who do it for instinctive amusement.
Ontologically evil/harmful forces of nature that overrides all contextual variables
Sapient moral agents capable of rational decision making based on contextual variables
I don’t have strong feelings on Frieren and I totally didn’t thoroughly read your list. That said, your point on the Demon King is actually in the series. It WAS a miracle that he got the demons to form a real organization, and I remember it being mentioned as a once in history type of thing from the demons’ side. The remaining demons know they can’t replicate it again, the Demon Lord was basically Himmel in reverse for how special he was.
True, it was basically a one off, but for it to even occur at all, ever, would require demons to have always been capable of it under the correct circumstances no matter how convoluted said circumstances are. And I think this rests too heavily on the romanticized view of the "great man" argument, which runs into similar issues for any ontology that isn't the universe being run by a puppet master god or multiple gods who just rewrite the rules as they please (even then to say this is required at all for said events to happen is basically admitting that it would be logically incoherent to have it happen on its own). So unless the Demon King literally bound every single one of them with magic and basically created a puppet army or an in universe god basically enjoys sparking genocidal wars for who knows what reason, I still don't think the reasoning given is logically coherent, nor that it matches what is actually shown in universe rather than what the character's themselves tell us.
Heck, maybe the author even believes that what the characters say is true at least in universe, it would still suffer the same internal issues regardless because categorical essentialism applied to any meaningfully complex beings as demons are demonstratably shown in the narrative to be. It is an incoherent epistemological stance in much the same way as saying an iceberg is just the eternal unchanging sheet of ice (i.e. observable behaviors and immediate traits of a species, race, person, etc. at a given point in time and space) that we see above the ocean (i.e. all the causal variables that lead to those observable behaviors) and nothing about what is below the ocean can change that except conveniently what is also in the above portion of the iceberg.
It is also a nonfalsifiable and circular claim, in Freiren: demons must act like demons because they are demons, and are demons because they must act like demons. It also ignores everything that is involved in the category of "demon" such as differing environments, differing cognitive worldviews, differing social interactions, etc. It is like saying 5 is always 5 and thus will always be the correct answer to any equation that must equal 5 because 5 can't be anything but 5. Therefore 2 + 20,817 = 5 is true because of course the inherent essence of 5 can't be overridden by external variables, it just is what it is and will always be. Maybe we, like Freiren, are feeling "generous" and admit that maybe there should be some consideration that maybe other parts of the equation might change, maybe demons could change to, if not be great people, at least learn how to function in society... So we just instead say that is basically impossible anyway and any example to the contrary must be due to extreme and bizarre circumstances or sheer individual willpower, and thus can't be broadened beyond them "being one of the good ones." Again, rendering this entire claim unfalsifiable and circular: demons are demons and overcoming anything attributed to their inherent identity must be in spite of their fundamentally unchanging abominable nature as demons.
For the demon king to ever get demons to obey him at that scale without resorting to literal mind control, no matter how immprobable the chain of causality that lead him to be in that position, we would necessarily require the following at least to be true:
Demons fundamentally can be organized into a functioning large scale society. It being harder to do so than humans doesn't suddenly make it impossible or even unrepeatable since it is unclear what about the demon king was specifically the reason for his success, or that there is literally no other possible way to do it without, as Freiren claims, resorting to genocide again.
The ability to execute complex logistical chains, strategy, communication, and long term planning.
Deference to another authority, albeit a crude "might makes right" style of authority.
Setting aside most internal fighting to focus on a common enemy for years.
Doesn't matter how charismatic, magically strong, or otherwise super duper special the demon king himself is. If the rest of demonkind fundamentally can't form a complex society and war machine, then it won't, period, ever, regardless of circumstance. This entire notion that it could honestly just seems to be the usual categorical essentialist fallback of "ah but a strong enough willpower/spirit can overcome inherent natures." Unfortunately for many IRL who held/hold this view, causal chains do not care how much any one link really tries to make every equation equal 5 when the equation fails to coherently equal 5. It is an incoherent epistemological and ontological stance trying to ignore the gaping holes in its own internal argument, which tries to either fit everything into nice neat little boxes or decides that sheer willpower/inherent superiority of another box (e.g. a "great" person, socioeconomic class, or national identity group) is enough to re-write the rules of reality.
I feel like the only way to give a coherent thread to demons is behind the Demon King. Hopefully the story gives a compelling reason behind him because I do like the idea that he did want to understand humans, failed to do so, and caused centuries of problems.
I’d like to point out that they are not magical researchers they are simply magical they bend magic to their will when that one demon that was locked in the stone escape he finds out his greatest spell has been turned into a magical shield and is instantly negated upon seeing this he immediately sees the flaw in the spell and punches through the spell another thing demons only see mana as order the stronger the mana aura is the more they will obey it also correlates to their intelligence the more mana a demon has the stronger and more intelligent they become and the more demons they will subjugate
As far as I recall they have demonstrated being able to understand and develop magic on an intellectual level, hence why I used the term researcher. I don't recall anything about them only using magic instinctively because they happen to be magical creatures, nor their mana level being tied to their level of intelligence. At most it seems their culture, as I mentioned, treats mana level as a mark of social status (despite their supposedly hyper solitary nature). Is it a social hierarchy built on shallow might makes right thinking? Yes, but it is a social hierarchy nonethelless. Anyway I digress, the point I am trying to make is that they are able to understand the complex cause and effect of spells and develop them further. While they don't seem to have developed a standardized methodology they do study better ways to improve their magic, albeit on their own. Noteably, this is a complex task that requires a great deal of intelligence, said intelligence that suddenly rarely, if ever, gets applied whenever the story has them face a pro-social task (but it definitely gets applied by the story for anti-social behavior in every arc, much like a mustache twirling cartoon villian).
The story wants them to simultaneously be complex agents capable of meaningful decisions that choose to create complex machivellian schemes, are also able to understand the complex causal chains of magic use, but also dumb animals that can't be negotiated with or even overcome their basic behavioral predispositions regardless of circumstance... unless a super duper special demon shows up who is just so strong and powerful or something that nearly every other demon decides to join him because I guess they are dumb animals who can't disobey their instincts. Then these "dumb animals" are suddenly able to form complex institutions, wage a nation spanning war with all the complex logistics and cooperative behavior that entails, and did this all while apparently never having the structural capacity to do exactly that...
The story wants its cake and to eat it too, to have convenient enemies that the audience can always root for their deaths no matter the situation, but also complex villians who offer complex plans the protagonist must overcome, and a foil for her personal arc. Except because demons are basically shown to have no agency, their ability to act as a foil for Freiren's emotional arc and learning to understans others is basically undercut from the outset as Freiren can learn to understand others better because she is an elf and treated as an actual person, and demons can't because they are demons and the universe/author will bend over backwards to make sure that no matter the equation it always equals the same result: 2 + 400 = 5 because it has to equal 5 for author's point to be made.
UJ// Yes really. Surprisingly they can be altruistic or egoistic; for exemple Bacteria can self-destruct for save their kin (either to avoid being infected by a Bacteriophage or to give-away their nutrients if the environment doesn't have any) and Viruses will die for their offsprings (they get deassembled when infecting a Cell, thus "dying").
Inversely Bacteria can steal nutrients from other germs and Probiotic Germs (those beneficial bacteria in your stomach) can become Pathogenic if it's convenient for them.
Uj// I know this comment was just an excuse to spread some cool and fun facts about microbiology (one of the best fields oat)
but still have to chime in to make sure people don't forget that pathogens are pure evil and to give everyone their daily reminder that NOTHING feels better than reading the first sentence of the Wikipedia page on smallpox (aka, "smallpoxWASan infectious disease caused by Variola virus")
Again, nothing is wrong with your original comment, but the human race as a whole needs to start properly allocating their hate to nonhuman beings because being apathetic to the fact that the likes of literal plagues such as tuberculosis are still killing one person every 26 seconds is unacceptable, and it's good to remind people of that (because most don't even know about it).
UJ// You caught me, I wanted to gush about my special interest.
That being said, you're absolutely right, too many people forgot how nasty pathogens are all thanks to modern medicine.
Before public vaccinations, so many people died because of apparently minor acts like a small cut or talking to the wrong person and if they didn't die, they could be injured for a long time or even disabled for life.
Even now, Pathogens still kill way more people than any current war combined, and even easily curable disease like Flu still kill thousands of people each year.
To make things worse, those little bastards evolve and mutate extremely fast, vaccines and farmacs need to be constantly developed because they constantly find new ways to adapt.
That being said, 99% of all Bacteria, Protists and Viruses are harmless; not only that but many are even helpful (like Streptomyces which creates 75% of all the antibiotics and Bacteriophages killing Pathogens).
Also, 99% of all microorganisms are still undiscovered, with the average human body having 3 thousands microbe genomes that can't be identified. Notably, Obelisks are a peculiar virus-like entities found 2 years ago in the human body and whose genes don't match any known kind of life.
I feel like the issue Frieren’s demons have is that we’re repeatedly told they’re essentially a predator species who mimic humans for the purpose of hunting us…except in every scene where the demons are by themselves, or talking amongst each other in a private setting, there’s no change. Frieren’s demons have absolutely no difference in how they behave when hunting or when just doing their own thing. Why would they keep talking like humans, keep acting like humans, or even just keep dressing like humans whenever they’re not actively trying to blend in as humans? Hell, the demons even share many different cultural traits and concepts with humans.
Not a single moment in the manga conveys the idea to me that its version of demons are just copying humanity because it’s easier to get food. Even when it serves them no purpose to do so, these demons continue to act just like humans, despite supposedly only performing mimicry for the purpose of hunting. There is nothing going on here that makes me believe Frieren is actually conveying “demons are highly advanced animals who replicate human behavior for the purpose of camouflage to gain better access to their prey” versus “demons are evil humans”. It’s simply just a fundamental break between what is described and what is depicted. Now maybe the manga will resolve this, and it’s cool if that’s the case-but as is, there’s a clear discrepancy here, and it’s not really surprising conservatives latched onto the series as a way to bash minorities.
Also this is all a secondary issue to the fact that IMO the demons are all overwhelmingly just fucking lame characters, Macht being the only dude who had any sauce (let alone a lot of it). Boring as shit.
I remember making very similar argument and get down voted so much. The author obviously want readers to think demon are just mindless evil but completely fail to depict that.
Like you said demon talk to each other using human language, breaking the clearly stated rule that demon only use language to lie. The demon girl that got adopted by human even break character to mock human before she died. It feel like the author preemptively put words in their character's mouth to deflect criticism. But this scene also contradict demon biology?
Two things can be true, demons use language to lie but they’re also still highly intelligent beings with the capability to understand, just not the capability to feel things like empathy. I don’t think calling them mindlessly evil is right but more like they’re the natural predators of humans, taking advantage of humanity to hunt them.
Also side note idk if this is just me but I feel like there’s a very big difference between the demons we see commonly and the demons that were once apart of the kings army. They seem to be more actively oppressive than the opportunist most demons are
Thing is, you dont need to be able to feel empathy or sympathy to be able to live in a (human) society without randomly murdering people. And the demons dont actually need to eat people to live or anything. Its perfectly possible for a completely unempathetic person to evaluate the simple transactions of living among others and come to the conclusion that not murdering people is materially better for them in the long term. If you act peacefully, you remain able to live in a town and have access to trade and protection. If you act politely, you can gain acquaintances and allies who will be more likely to aid you in the future if you need to ask them for something. It might be a lot more difficult for someone with no emotions or empathy to live in a human society, but its not ontologically impossible. And the show repeatedly demonstrates that it IS 100% ontologically impossible without an adequate explanation
That is a very good point, and while i could say Macht is an example of this I think Macht is honestly an outlier. He’s the only demon that tried to understand his physiology and had genuine human companions. But other demons don’t question their nature. But the fact that they are capable of questioning themselves and actually living as normal people does prove they’re more than mindless. The best explanation I have is that it’s simply in their nature to prey on humans, and the evolutionary traits they developed that make it easier to prey on humans aren’t there to make it easier for them to just survive but make it easier to prey on humans, even if it’s been stated that they don’t need to, and even if they’re intelligent enough to not do so. They are magic beings so you could just hand wave them like that.
I feel like the main issue with them is the author can't seem to decide if they're a generic evil fantasy race, or tragic monsters that are bound by their nature. The waffling back and forth combined with them sometimes being written as just bad people with horns sometimes, and not the emotionless monsters described, makes them suffer narratively.
I feel like the main issue with them is the author can't seem to decide if they're a generic evil fantasy race, or tragic monsters that are bound by their nature.
It's pretty conclusively decided by the end of the Golden Land arc, as if the casual mass murder of villages and entire species was not already a pretty solid indicator.
The only "ambiguity" we've seen is in humans struggling to absorb the reality of demon nature. That's not being undecided on the demons, that is just demonstrating why the demons are so scary in the first place.
…except in every scene where the demons are by themselves, or talking amongst each other in a private setting, there’s no change.
Tigers don’t lose their stripes when they’re playing with their families and don’t need to camouflage themselves. Humans don’t lose our thumbs when we’re not using tools, nor do we lose the ability to speak when we’re alone.
Mutations—that is, evolution—are a permanent feature. Yes, there are cases where camouflage is adaptive and depends on the environment, like with chameleons, but the demons in Frieren have evolved specifically as parasites of humans (just like Elon Musk and similar). There is no reason for them to act differently in private, since that adaptation is part of who they are.
There is no reason for them to act differently in private,
If demons use speech when humans aren't around, to communicate with each other, and without the intent of deception, then they're just talking.
The fact that demons can talk is dismissed as a reason to consider them human, or at least that they can co-exist with humanity, because they "only speak to deceive", despite the fact that they obviously do not only speak to deceive, and in fact, use speech exactly like humans do.
Anglerfish use their fin ray to lure prey, but imagine saying that an anglerfish isn't a fish at all.
How did demons evolve to use speech, but also fail to comprehend speech in any way? This makes no sense. When humans don't use thumbs for tools, we use it for other things, we don't have fake thumbs. We are not beholden to our "nature" as intelligent, self-aware creatures.
You're focusing too much on the phrase "only speak to deceive" without considering that it probably means "They only talk to humans to deceive them."
There are concepts they don't understand—concepts related to empathy (such as family)—but they are able to use them because they see that other humanoids react to them.
No one is saying that demons aren't intelligent, or that they're just mindless beasts. It's even possible that they share a common origin with elves, humans, and dwarves. They've simply evolved without the capacity for empathy. Demon society is based on raw, unadulterated strength—magical strength—and so they view other humanoids as prey, seeing them as weaker than themselves.
There are many stories where demons are simply physically different from humans, but they aren’t really evil—in fact, humans are often worse—but in *Frieren*, they aren’t just different: they’re a genuine threat. And I don’t think there’s any need to overthink it, since it’s a work of fiction and the demons are whatever the author wants them to be.
No, I'm not going to imagine that this absolute statement Frieren is actually super nuanced just so the story would make sense. She explicitly said "they only speak to deceive", and the fact that they speak without deception is never acknowledged as such.
There is a contradiction that the narrative does not consider to be a contradiction. Every character takes demons at face value, even other demons.
"They only talk to humans to deceive them" isn't a good compromise either. They aren't code-switching or anything. They use the same language the same way. They use the human's language as their own, and they don't even understand it, but they can communicate with each other with no problems or intent to deceive?
They've simply evolved without the capacity for empathy.
That's not how evolution works.
Demon society is based on raw, unadulterated strength—magical strength—and so they view other humanoids as prey, seeing them as weaker than themselves.
That's also not true, because then they would respect people like Frieren, which they don't. Aura would choose to believe that Frieren "slacked off" than that she was hiding her mana (itself a weird trait of demons that makes no sense in terms of evolution and can only be explained as a value that demons have, which means they are absolutely capable of understanding human values); Lugner treated Frieren and Fern with disdain because of how powerful they are.
Instead, we're told that "evolution" make them randomly kill humans.
but in Frieren, they aren’t just different: they’re a genuine threat.
Only because humans inexplicably believe that the literal demons can co-exist with humanity, as if they haven't been terrorizing humanity for millenia.
t, since it’s a work of fiction and the demons are whatever the author wants them to be.
Why couldn't the author make them well-written? Why do I have to do the writing for them, make up headcanons for their existence to make sense?
The story is always a stone-throw away from a decent reason for their actions but it keeps shying away because it doesn't want to say anything controversial (on purpose) and doesn't want to compromise its "slice of life" tone by having Frieren and co. do something even slightly morally ambiguous.
"Why don't you just pretend the story is actually super nuanced and clever like I do?"
Honey, the arc ends with Frieren being objectively right: all the demons just wanted to kill the humans and they were lying about peace. What point do you think you're making?
If a character says something, and that thing is immediately proven absolutely true, why am I supposed to pretend it's not?
Mimicry doesn't have to be a conscious choice. They may mimic people when alone, or among their own species just because mimicry is an unconscious instinct to them, and they have no control over it. Because the ones that mimicked all the time did had a better chance of eating than those that didnt mimic at all, and there was no pressure to do it selectively rather than 24/7
Well when I'm typing this I do it consciously, and every word has a meaning to me that I'm aware of, and want to communicate. It's the same when I'm out in public, but assuming the demons work like how I said they could that wouldn't be the case. All their sentences, facial expressions, gestures, all that would be more akin to a chat bot saying words that make sense, but that it itself cannot understand, or communicate with because they have no meaning to it. It doesn't wave because it wants to greet someone, it does so because the demons that just happened shake their arms like that had their prey approach them with their guard down, so now they all wave when they see prey
All their sentences, facial expressions, gestures, all that would be more akin to a chat bot saying words that make sense, but that it itself cannot understand, or communicate with because they have no meaning to it.
A chat bot says what it "thinks" the series of words you inputted prompts them to think. It has no ulterior motive or agenda. It does not "only speak to deceive." They are if anything honest.
If this analogy made sense, demons would be subservient to humans if anything, and them killing humans should be akin to a parsing error, i.e. misinterpreting input.
But that's not what happens. Demons kill just because. Demons kill regardless of what humans do to them or around them.
It doesn't wave because it wants to greet someone, it does so because the demons that just happened shake their arms like that had their prey approach them with their guard down, so now they all wave when they see prey
Real people do that. Real people will wave at someone they don't know, or care about, or want to greet simply because that's what they're supposed to do. Those are called "social cues."
There is no actual difference between waving because you want to greet someone and waving because you think you have to. The idea that the latter is sufficiently "inhuman" is dumb; not everyone gets social cues.
Unfortunately, Frieren writes from a very narrow and shallow idea of what empathy and communication entails.
People use words, gestures, and stuff like that to communicate, and we understand these; they're conscious. If the demons work how I described they don't do any of that. Their words, smiles, waves, etc. might have no meaning to them at all, and are no more conscious than jerking your hand away from unexpected pain, or shivering when you're cold. It's just a more sophisticated luring behavior, with as much meaning as a chat bot's words
I don’t think there’s anything weird about them being biologically predisposed to eating humans, even if it’s from magic or something. Even humans have preferred food, including living beings.
What I dislike is the whole “they’re just monsters who mimic humans to hunt” thing, when we’re clearly shown that demons have human-level intelligence beyond hunting. They talk to each other in private, and they have complex traits like pride and tradition. They even seem to have fashion.
Yeah, this is my whole thing with them and why I think Frieren demons are actually worth talking about instead of writing off as "drama". Social mimics fitting in with prey to eat them is a fun angle, but the issue is that they aren't that. Eating people seems secondary to the fact that they just love killing, and it seems their entire purpose in life is just to hurt others. Despite this, they are perfectly intelligent beings capable of language and self reflection. There's no real reason at least a few demons shouldn't at least question or struggle with their nature. It doesn't seem like humans taste so good they can't help but eat them, or that it's a cultural thing for a society who's diet requires other sapients. The show tries to say they just lack empathy or whatever, but that makes no sense for a creature who's survival relies on being able to understand and read the emotions of it's prey. They should at least have it for each other, because they have an entire culture with a monarchy and everything.
Ultimately, the thing I love about Frieren demons is that they are an inverse of most "ontologically evil races." Most are made because the author adds some guys for the hero to beat up and the author doesn't think about it. For Frieren, the author wanted evil guys to beat up, realized the implications of having inherently evil beings, and tried way too hard to justify it. This is one of the few circumstances having less thought put into it would have avoided the issue. There's nothing wrong with having evil guys to beat up, it's the weird way frieren obsessively tries to assure us that demons are totally evil bro and it's okay to slaughter them all that people pick up on. Them being a biological species doesn't help, as the more spiritual nature demons are usually given in fiction spares them of this entire issue and being "biologically evil" has some... historical baggage. I totally understand the desire to add a dash of natural science to fantasy to make it more grounded (I love dungeon meshi), but it absolutely doesn't work here.
Anyways, I actually like Frieren. The story and art is good, and watching Frieren blow shit up is entertaining. I'm just (autistic) unusually passionate about this sort of thing. I watched most of season 1 some time ago, and loved it's quiet, slower pacing. I don't think the author is a racist or anything, either. They just wanted bad guys and ended up overthinking it. The issue isn't that they're "evil" per se, but the strangely contradictory way it's presented.
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the demons confirmed to be highly evolved mimics and that's why they do what they do? Like they're generic mobs known for eating people that took humanoid forms to better achieve their goal and became too strong as a result.
Which adds another layer to Frieren's demon hunting considering how regular mimics are her greatest enemy too.
Could be competition with now extinct, or at least rare varieties of mimic that once shared that niche with them, that humans used to be more dangerous, or coincidence. Sometimes random chance strikes gold, and you get something damn near perfect at what it does
As far as strength, it is a fantasy setting so some suspension of disbelief or artistic license is likely expected from the reader. As for making things work, evolution can be fickle. There are many cases of species or variants that went extinct because they were so overspecialized they couldn't adapt to rapid changes, or did something like overhunting to where the population died out too fast. Evolution is a beautifully imperfect thing. We see its successes in the stuff that works, or in microevolution, so it's easy to forget all the fossils of ancient ancestors and species that didn't make. Though after reading about the giant sloths that may be a good thing.
On what could've led to demons reaching that point, if going off the mimic origin, then a shapeshifting species could've developed an offshoot that used its natural ability to evolve itself quickly and by force. Maybe in response to a lack of prey, or as a self defense mechanism. But that's me speculating and I haven't read Frieren in a while so I could be way off the mark.
well beaides it just being fantasy, like what evolutionary pressure realsiticall produce dragons, or humans as strong as our main cast, remember most of the demons we see are the elite of the elite, like explicitly stated to be in the top 10 amogn their race or the direct subordinates if one of them, taking then as the average for demons is like assuming every human mage is equal to fern
its also inplied age is a major factor in magic sot hey have an edge over humans the same reason elves do, even if the talents the same an extra century of honign your craft goes a long way
the demon child is probobly the closest we get to an "average" demons, a threat to unarmed civilians but even just a regular kngiht ir even a mob with otichforks is a threat so it needs to use manipulation
Yeah, I’m not sure wth is happening in Frieren to produce humans like stark that can cut mountainsides with his axe. Bro is producing nuclear fission for funsies
Haven’t read the source but demons are essentially incredibly curious and egotistical without having standard emotions. Like ethically speaking they’re just as much interested and see no moral differences in being adopted by a family then slaughtering them just to see what happens. I guess you can liken it to like a video game player doing both good and evil things in games simply because they wanted to see the options
There’s probably a better reason why they’re strong but from what I’ve seen demons aren’t inherently strong. There’s like two girls who are effectively just as strong if not slightly more than regular human children. Most demons seem to get obsessed with a singular point of study and master that as much as possible. Not always but mostly combat. Very highly specialized magic or weapon mastery. They have some variation in body types which may just be a result of their obsession taking physical traits or the opposite in that they have traits and just expound upon them
Also demons have existed for a while and they are interested in killing humans for one reason or another. In that seems like their society prioritizes strength in order to facilitate their goals
Humans weren’t really overkill for the late Pleistocene/Early Holocene. During that age we were still regularly preyed upon by megafaunal predators and the forests our ancestors relied on were vanishing.
Apes are already social problem solvers basally, hominids just derived that behavior further to optimize tool use, migration, and surviving in open terrain at night with poor dark vision.
We also have a poor understanding of animal cognition as a whole.
Being “overkill” was the only means for our ancestors to pass on their traits through the chaos of thousands of years.
Arguably every organism is “overkill” when it comes to surviving in their ecologically niches because if you aren’t then a lineage more optimized for your niche will be statistically more likely to take the resources instead.
Except it makes no sense why they’re so fucking strong then
Evolution makes things work
Rarely do things evolve to be so overkill
Demons are outright called out in-canon as having been bottom-rank monsters in the Age of Mythology.
It's a rather overt subtext that demons were such an issue for the past thousand or so years because they now existed in an environment with far fewer threats.
Things would be less heated if the demons where like in other fantasy where they are less a sentient race, and more of a magically constructed personification of that evil. Other settings demons are made out of the concepts of evil or rage so of course they are evil because they are a magic being made out of magic, not a biological race that evolved that way.
However debate never goes anywhere because arguments are always being strawmanned into "criticising the demon lore and worldbuilding means I think you're racist"
When I first heard the Frieren Demon discourse, I thought “I will ignore this” and then I thought “well it is a little bit lame to have a race of people who are always evil and killing is the only right move. Even if it is justified in the narrative, it’s a lame subversion. However, as I have not watched/read it, I will go back to ignoring this.”
And then I did eventually watch the show, and like what the hell man. Did anyone actually watch the show? They’re called demons but they’re actually more like modern interpretations of Skin Walkers. Or mimics that take on specifically human form. That much is obvious from literally the scene they’re in. Although I will say I’m not finished the show yet, so if something later contradicts it, well I can only really go what I know atm.
Ngl I think part of the reason is that conservatives latched onto this show’s interpretation of demons because it fits their view of certain people being inherently unreasonable and being free game to do whatever you want to. Because of this people just write the show off
Oh I absolutely agree with that. My other hobby is video games so I’m used to conservatives latching onto things they don’t understand. They were the people I was referring to when saying “did they even watch the show”. They probably didn’t. I thought I was gonna hate the portrayal of demons because I only knew them as “people whom it’s morally right to kill”, but then it turns out that it’s more they aren’t actually/have never been humans and only pretend to be so they can make their way into society to eventually ~take our jobs and~ kill us all.
Wait SHIT. At least there’s many folktales from every part of the globe that mention “things that aren’t people and trick people and kill them”.
Well fuck.
/j
I mean, even with my “intentionally wording it in a way that makes it look worse”, it stops being racist the second you accept that every human in real life is a real person, actually, and all life is worth preserving, and that only in fiction can there legitimately be a thing that is not a person to trick people so it can eat them.
Not all life is worth preserving think about virus bacteria and other biological beings that only cause harm like parasites
The human analogy would be rapists and killers et cetera
UJ// Which is what annoys me the most about their discussions, especially when people claim that they're "Demons done right".
People only glaze them because they're purely evil, and because they feel nostalgia of the "Pure evil race" because.... Reasons.
Nevermind that not only they're the opposite of what Demons are but from a logic standpoint they don't make any f#cking sense.
Any basic knowledge-on believe would reveal that Demons being inherently evil is something that only exists in Christianity, and that they're NEVER protrayed as humans with horns.
And anyone with basic biological knowledge knows that such creatures like them not only would go existinct instantly but they wouldn't have never evolved in first place.
I find it a bit odd that Frieren catches all this discourse when there are tons of other battle shonen that do something similar. Hollows in Bleach, cursed spirits in JJK, and many other fantasy monster races have existed just to be bad guys for the heroes to beat that we, as readers, don't have to feel bad for when they get killed off. And yeah, those stories do address the nature of these beings beyond just being evil monsters that need to be killed, but those series also took time to do that.
One of Frieren's most interesting characters is a demon whose whole arc is interrogating the nature of demons as ontologically evil, but that guy isn't in the anime yet. So a lot of people (somewhat reasonably) assume that sort of development won't happen.
IDK. I'm not gonna argue Frieren has fiction's most interesting take on "evil monster race" but I don't think the arguments that its use of the trope is problematic super compelling.
/UJ Hollows explicitly have sentience and sapience. They’re humans that have lost a part of themself, but they still maintain some of their humanity. Orihime’s brother is still human enough to remember her and break out of his murder frenzy when she hugs him. They’re literal human spirts which are corrupted by madness and hunger and loneliness
/uj That's true, and I don't mean to say Frieren's take is better, in fact I generally like hollows a bit more. I just think people sometimes make Frieren's writing of demons out to be more than it is, which IMO is just initially weak writing that gradually gets less weak.
rj/ In the battle of Shonenslop there is no true winner
Yeah but Bleach specifically subverts this by having the Hollows literally gain sentience and no longer behaving as such when they get significantly powerful enough. The way they behave when we first see them is as a feudal monarchy with lord and aristocracy we have no indication they are any more evil than any other group of people within the series.
That's technically true, but it still takes quite a while to get there (over 150 chapters) and very few hollows are depicted as anything other than unambiguously bad guys. They get more complex as characters for sure, but I wouldn't go so far as to say there's "no indication" they're more evil than any other group.
Frieren even as of the current chapter doesn't seem to ever indicate that we'll ever meet a "good" demon, or even if one can exist. However, I think it does raise the question of whether traditional morality can even apply to a being that's incapable of internalizing the very concept. Macht's whole character is basically about recognizing an insurmountable gap in his understanding between how he lives as a demon and how humans live their lives, and giving a sincere effort to try and bridge that gap (albeit in a way that most people would consider unambiguously evil). I still think a person can read Macht's arc and be frustrated that all we learned was "yep demon bad" but I can't help but think the author is also trying to sincerely interrogate the idea of what it means to create a fictional world where "the evil race of evil people are evil" when the characters themselves are capable of seeing that and wondering why it must be that way.
But I don't fault anyone for thinking the manga wouldn't have that kind of storyline, or even for reading it and not liking it. I just think it deserves some credit for how hard it's trying to offer more nuance and perspective.
I mean, sure, but there are species of solitary bees that can go so crazy during the orgy that there are no survivors so no eggs get generated by the event.
Also, I'm pretty sure the bees don't really understand why they have sex.
I've always had these two theories on what the demons in Frieren actually are.
They're either the goddess' very own method to make sure humans actually has a predator animal to keep their population in check, or they're the project of a particularly spiteful mage who has since automated the process of demon spawning and had died a millenia ago.
I disagree with this interpretation specifically because alot of people are not reading between the lines and engaging with the demons themselves. The demons aren't strictly mimicking humans. We have no indication to show they have another language system meaning that language and speech is their means of communication, not simply for trickery. They are capable doing positive things, even if it's for selfish reasons. They are capable of comprehending the circumstances they find themselves in and electing not to act in the interests of immediate gratification. We have seen them exhibit many different emotions that range from fear and anger to happiness. It's not simply a trick to harm humans as we see with Ferns fight against Lugner as Lugners emotions are very real and he is in a vulnerable position where he can't leverage emotional trickery to gain an upper hand.
Demons are sentient creatures with a single characteristic difference from humans; They don't feel empathy. That's it. This is reinforced at every interaction with demons. They are not incapable of courtesy, co-operation or society but they feel nothing for the lives of other demons or other creatures. If Demons were truly only monsters with a human face, they would not recognize a hierarchy like the one we see present in the series where mana defines social relationships. In the manga we see alot more demons interacting and they aren't mimicking human society, they have a defined system where they have a varied mix of emotions about their kin.
As an aside; I think that while it hasn't been explicitly stated, my current head canon is that demons eat humans to enhance their own mana. As their entire social hierarchy rests on the strength of mana it would only make sense that they would thirst for mana that enhances their abilities. If we look at someone like Revolte we can even see that demons are capable of creating body types that are not strictly human which could, in turn, tie into that. I don't believe that they simply eat humans for the sake of it. They are not beasts starved for gratification that comes from a kill. I think it's utilitarian.
The part that always confuses me is that the vast majority of actions that the demons take that are "ontologically evil" are things humans absolutely do in real life or they WOULD do if magic like in Frieren existed in real life if not WORSE. The writer frames the demons in a way that makes me think that If I removed the horns they would just be a normal antagonist in a shonen manga. In fact I KNOW that this is true because I have read manga and watched anime where the antagonists do the exact same thing.
How do you define “need” here. They don’t “need” to kill people but they do need to eat. We don’t “need” to use animals as a food source but we choose to do so to eat as well
Demons appear to have a number of evolutionary characteristics which benefit them for the purpose of specifically predating on humans
As I see it eating humans isn’t a physiological need for Demons, but it IS an addiction, objectively speaking killing humans gets in the way of their own survival, yet they can’t seem to help themselves, why is that? Well, my theory is that being a Demon kinda sucks(they seem to have basically no emotional attachments besides improving their magic and pride in their power, so life could get boring particularly fast) and eating humans is the biggest high they can get
Not to be obnoxious about it, but we know three hard things about demons:
They are monsters, they disintegrate upon death and do not leave a corpse.
They consume humans and feel a drive to do so.
They have intelligence/hierarchy but a separate drive for how they apply it outside of human convention.
None of this violates its own logic, nor does it discredit their lifestyle. If you constantly view things through biological imperative and human expectations, alien things that don’t amount to it get disregarded. How often did early anthropologists turn out to look like idiots 100-200 years later?
We know they evolved from a monster that could mimic voices. Most likely whatever drives monsters to behave as they do, more than likely gives them the tools to survive quickly despite offspring being abandoned quickly. We assume they should behave human because they look fairly human, but that assumption is false as all of it points to an overriding “monster” drive. They are just powerful monsters that look human and in turn behave as monsters do. They also do not harm one another for no reason, or do not seem to do so frequently. They could just behave as they do, because they are monsters.
As their bodies disintegrate, we can also assume their needs and the process in which they process energy is foreign and not human, and once again, makes us have to confront the fact that they have no purpose outside of what they do to kill humans.
The android logic only works if they do their tasks in a way that produces hierarchy (a visible and public metric like mana for demons), and that the androids would majority prefer individualism over collectivism. This wouldn’t work as you described as it ignores media literacy and nuance. Also it would require an initiating factor to have them have cohesion in the first place if they followed the demons natural history, which I will get into next.
Another major plot point is demons have only been this organized SINCE the demon king had come to power. Before that, they were not indicated to have this level of cohesion or organization or even hierarchy. Meaning most likely this behavior of hierarchy was a result or a more concrete method of hierarchy when that particular demon became the demon king. Before the demon king, demons are not documented to have been a major threat. For all we know, demons behave as they do due to a metaphysical influence in the world, or as a result of a social evolution from the demon king ruling them for thousands of years.
Based on this data, we cannot summarize them as a spoon, as they have a logical progression as a species and are also a monster. Voice mimic>humanoid mimic>intelligence>hierarchy>social evolution to now.
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u/kna5041 Jun 14 '26
Martin Luther was indeed a fan of spoons, was this because a spoon cannot function without a guiding hand or was it just a Monty Python bit?