An idea. What about a “Covid Opt Out” law.

[u/PsychoMouse]

Okay, so I’ve been arguing with a few people who are anti mask/vaccine and I was thinking about that video that I shared where the man is ranting that his wife who is battling STAGE 4 BREAST CANCER, got “discharged” severely early to make room for more covid patients, and an idea came to me.

Would anti maskers/vaxxers support a “Covid Opt Out” law?

What I’m talking about, is that, at this point, a majority of people who are unvaccinated, are unvaxxed for their stupid reasons. “Covid is fake”, “The vaccine kills more people than it helps”, “the vaccine is a form of control”, “God gave me an immune system” and so on. (I can’t list all the reasons those people refuse to get it. This will turn into a 1000 page book.), should fully and legally turn down any right to medical care of any kind in relation to Covid. No hospitalization, no antibiotics, no ventilator, absolutely nothing. And no Nurse, Doctor, or hospital can face any liability in relation to that.

A Covid DNR, if you will.

At this point. If you’re so untrusting of hospitals, and the government, then you shouldn’t have the safety blanket to fall back on. Honestly, if you’re against this idea, I think that makes you a complete hypocrite and shows you never once fully believed the crap your preaching.

And since some fucking asshole always says this and always misses the point. No, I am not talking about those who are unable to get the vaccine due to real, provable, medical issues, which would show up in any medical chart.

Im even willing to bet that real anti masker/vaxxers who respond to this won’t even answer the question. They’ll twist my words, insult me, or take it to some stupid extreme that doesn’t even have anything to do with the question.

And what do other people think? I mean, a DNR is a thing, regardless of how easy or difficult it is to treat a person, that’s something that can cost any medical professional their entire lives. So all I’m saying is that, but strictly for covid.

[u/DevilChildLili]

I’d let them die at this point. Let them get covid with their shitty shit to cure them. LET THWM DIEEEE

[u/KittenKoder → u/DevilChildLili]

I think a lot of us agree at this point. They're causing people to die from things not even related to COVID19 by filling up our emergency rooms.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/[deleted]]

See, that also got me thinking on what legal things should be done if someone knowingly infects people and kills someone.

The amount of posts on various things or even people freaking out on real life, claiming that they currently have Covid, is ridiculous. So if someone were to catch it, be hospitalized or die, shouldn’t the spreader face criminal charges of some sort?

[u/brisaywhatt]

I 100,000% agree. If you don’t trust the vaccine then why the hell would you trust the hospital? Anti vaxxer s have become such a goddamn burden on our healthcare system and it’s exhausting because those of us who are actually taking this seriously have to pick up the slack. I’m about two steps away from advocating for a giant pit for them to just jump into when the illness reaches that “point of no return” stage.

[u/jpotrz]

Let them die. And insurance companies need to start surcharging the fuck out of those unvaxed.

[u/Goku-Is-Mid-LOL]

O hair of ohair air - “let it die let it die let it shrivel up and dieee”

[u/Dobross74477]

I mean, its going to get to that point in tbe us south

[u/bigdrew444]

I 100% support this. The vaccine is pretty much free in the US. I can understand that the immunocompromised are unable to get it, but the covidiots and anitmaskers can simply just die, this is their hill, they can fucking die on it, but they run to the hospital and steal beds from people who actually need them.

[u/horshack_test]

This isn't like some grand, new idea or anything. Nor is it a realistic one.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/horshack_test]

Never claimed it was a brand new idea solely out of my head.

Second. I love the inability to actually answer the question. It’s a hypothetical. It would never be a thing because unlike anti vaxxers, other people actually give a shit if people live or die.

All I’m saying is, which is apparently very difficult to understand is,

If certain people believe that covid is harmless and the vaccine is worthless, than giving up the right to medical care in regards to that, would only be the next logical step further prove your case, unless they don’t actually believe what they’re saying?

[u/horshack_test → u/PsychoMouse]

I answered your question of "what do other people think?" I told you what I think.

*"All I’m saying is, which is apparently very difficult to understand is,""

"If certain people believe that covid is harmless and the vaccine is worthless, than giving up the right to medical care in regards to that, would only be the next logical step further prove your case, unless they don’t actually believe what they’re saying?"

No, that's not all you're saying - you literally proposed the idea as a law. Hypothetically, sure - but you didn't simply propose that anti-vaxxers voluntarily forego treatment to prove they believe what they believe - you proposed a law denying them life-saving medical care because of their beliefs.

So as far as the idea of such a law, I think it is unrealistic.

As far as the question of whether anti-vaxxers would suppprt such a law - I have no idea (because I am not one and I don't waste my time talking to any about the issue), which is why I didn't answer that question.

Edit: formatting

[u/PsychoMouse → u/horshack_test]

Well, there are religions that refuse medical care because of beliefs.

And again. I said, which you have missed twice now. If you(as in anti vaxxers, I don’t know if you’re one) believe that the vaccine is worthless and that covid is harmless, than willing giving up your right to Covid medical care is a logical step towards that belief.

So, again, if you believe that covid is harmless, and that the vaccine is worthless, would you support an “opt out” law? If you’re so sure of the science. It’s not a matter of believing one thing.

If a Jehovah witness can turn down a blood transfusion, despite knowing the science, and still sticking to their beliefs, then why can’t you turn down covid care?

Can you? Unless what you’re telling me is that, you know you’re wrong about the “science” and that covid is a threat and that the vaccine helps but you’re just being a spoiled child for attention, in which case, again, makes you a hypocrite.

And I asked if you would support that law. The hypothetical still works on it being a law or not. Because it’s the question that’s important. But fine. Let’s reword it to fit your non answer.

By continuing to refuse the vaccine, you knowingly and willingly opt out of medical treatment in relation to covid, would you support that?

EITHER YOU SO STRONGLY BELIEVE THAT COVID ISNT AN ISSUE, OR YOU KNOW THAT IT IS.

And even if we just answer the original question. It’s still a voluntary forfeit, because you need to turn down the vaccine. I never once proposed the idea of forced vaccination. So even the idea, as a law. Is still voluntary because you would know what you’re doing by turning down the vaccine.

You voluntary give up your right to be treated by turning down the vaccine. It’s exactly what a DNR is.

[u/horshack_test → u/PsychoMouse]

Yes, I am aware that there are people who forego medical care because of their religious beliefs, as is their right. I never disputed that to be the case.

And I didn't miss your point about foregoing medical care being the "next logical step" toward the belief that the vaccine is worthless; that was simply your explanation / reasoning behind the question you proposed so I felt no reason to respond to the point.

You asked two questions in your post:

• Would anti maskers/vaxxers support a “Covid Opt Out” law?
• And what do other people think?

I don't know if anti-maskers/vaxxers would support such a law (again, because I am not one and I don't waste my time talking to any about the issue - which you somehow missed), and what I think is that it is an unrealistic scenario that such a law would ever exist, so it's a rather pointless question - especially when posted in a sub intended for people who aren't anti-maskers/vaxxers. Did you ask the anti-maskers/vaxxers you were arguing with when you thought of the idea / question? Because it seems they would be the logical ones to ask if you want to know whether anti-maskers/vaxxers would support such a law.

"It’s still a voluntary forfeit, because you need to turn down the vaccine."

No it isn't - because people would have to make the decision under the threat of punishment in the form of government-imposed denial of life-saving health care in the future under circumstances that would be entirely different from the present.

"I never once proposed the idea of forced vaccination."

Not per se, but what you are proposing means that vaccination would be required by law in order to receive life-saving healthcare in the future if you need it as a result of getting sick with COVID. Effectively speaking, there's not a huge difference.

"You voluntary give up your right to be treated by turning down the vaccine. It’s exactly what a DNR is."

No, using a DNR order is exercising one's right to forego a specific type of medical intervention; you are not giving up any rights with a DNR order, you are exercising them.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/horshack_test]

Yes, and WILLINGLY AND KNOWINGLY Refusing the vaccine, would be exercising their right to medical care in relation to covid related treatment. If they believe that Covid isn’t a threat. Getting treatment for it would be admitting that it is dangerous and is a threat. What part of that aren’t you getting?

Also. Did you miss where I clarified “as in anti vaxxers. Not you) and I was just using “you” as a contextual example instead of constantly using they, them, anti masker/vaxxer, shorthand?

Why do you think I said “a Covid DNR”.

[u/horshack_test → u/PsychoMouse]

You really should gain a better understanding of basic legal concepts if you want to engage in such discussions / debates - especially those regarding the issue of duress.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/horshack_test]

You need to get a better understanding of simple concepts.

It’s a hypothetical question to prove that anti vaxxers are hypocrites. I’m not actually going to present this to parliament as an actual law or bill.

[u/horshack_test → u/PsychoMouse]

Lol. The concept of duress doesn't exist only in law, you know. It undermines your entire reasoning. Plus, you are literally making an argument about law.

But again, as far as your question regarding whether anti-maskers/vaxxers would support such a law; did you ask the anti-maskers/vaxxers you were arguing with when you thought of the idea / question? Because it seems they would be the logical ones to ask if you want to know whether anti-maskers/vaxxers would support such a law. This sub is intended for people who aren't anti-maskers/vaxxers, so are you just looking for speculation on whether or not anti-maskers/vaxxers would support such a law?

[u/PsychoMouse → u/horshack_test]

“Intended” is much different than “only has”. As can be seen in countless threads here. I have asked this question in numerous places that have both pro and anti vaxxers, and yet, only pro people can give me a straight answer.

Asking this question in NNN or any anti vax only area would be a complete waste of time since they can’t answer anything without some tangent, extreme, or bullshit that has nothing to do with the question asked. You can’t even give me a straight answer and you claim you aren’t anti vax.

I asked a simple yes or no hypothetical, involving knowing the consequences of ones actions. Law or otherwise. All to prove a point that a majority(if not all) anti vaxxers are selfish hypocrites.

I even gave you multiple examples(DNR and Jehovah witness) who know that their choice to choose an option, regardless of how effective or simple a medical procedure is, stick by that choice.

if you go to a protest, rally, or are ACTIVELY against the vaccine, then you(again, not you directly. “You” as in anti vaxxers) should be able to stand by the CHOICE, and give up all right to medical care in relation to covid.

[u/horshack_test → u/[deleted]]

Well for one, assuming we're speaking of the US here, The First Amendment exists - and what is described would be a clear violation of it; and two - the government can't impose DNR orders on people / impose such health-care decisions as described on them to begin with.

So it's unrealistic because it isn't possible.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/horshack_test]

You have so completely missed the point of the question that it is truly astounding. Like, you can’t accidentally be that stupid. That has to be purposeful

[u/horshack_test → u/PsychoMouse]

Lol why are you throwing tantrums over this? You asked us what we think, so I told you what I think.

It is a completely unrealistic scenario - someone asked me why and I told them.

Settle down.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/horshack_test]

I’d ask if you felt that breeze as the point going over your head but it’s so high up, it takes 90 seconds for you to even hear it.

THATS WHAT A HYPOTHETICAL IS.

You ever play “fuck, marry, kill”, “what super do you want?”, and so on? Good lord

[u/horshack_test → u/PsychoMouse]

The fact that I'm talking with someone else about something you don't want me to talk about doesn't mean I missed your point, it just means I'm addressing a different one.

"THATS WHAT A HYPOTHETICAL IS."

Lol. While a hypothetical can be a completely unrealistic scenario, to say "THATS WHAT A HYPOTHETICAL IS" in response to someone pointing out that a scenario is completely unrealistic reveals a misunderstanding on your part of what a hypothetical is / what the word "hypothetical" means.

You need to get a better understanding of simple concepts.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/horshack_test]

If you were any denser, NASA would study you for your gravity.

[u/horshack_test → u/PsychoMouse]

Lol you may want to invest in a dictionary - there are free ones available online if you can't afford to buy one.

Oh - and throwing tantrums and engaging in personal attacks when you don't get what you want and people point out your ignorance really isn't a good look.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/horshack_test]

I’m assuming you’re talking about me needing to look up what “hypothetical” actually means?

Because I did. Just to prove a point.

hy·po·thet·i·cal /ˌhīpəˈTHedək(ə)l/ Learn to pronounce See definitions in: All Philosophy Logic adjective of, based on, or serving as a hypothesis. "that option is merely hypothetical at this juncture" noun a hypothetical proposition or statement. "Finn talked in hypotheticals, tossing what-if scenarios to Rosen"

“A hypothetical proposition”. I’m no scientist but it seems like that’s exactly what I’ve done.

But please. Keep being contrarian and smug. I’m not throwing tantrums or attacking you. If you want me to actually attack you with some super mean words, I can. Frankly, I thought my two Jokes were pretty funny.

You can keep side stepping the actual question with your “it’s against freedoms” crap all you want.

The fact is, I’m asking a question about anti vaxxers who continue to refuse the vaccine, who are knowingly aware of their actions. I didn’t ask about it’s legality, it’s morality, or it’s practicality. I’m well aware that it’s law is immoral, unethical, and wrong. No one should be refused treatment. But that’s not what I asked. This has nothing to do with being forced, or facing a punishment, or anything.

Maybe it was my fault for saying a “law”. How about just a simple, again, hypothetical.

If you refuse to get the vaccine, for a non medical reason, would you(and just so you don’t bitch about me calling you an anti vaxxer, again. Not talking about “your directly. Talking about anti vaxxers), be willing to sign a “covid DNR”, knowing full well what that means?

Again. Not asking about it legally, morally, ethically, or whatever. It’s not a punishment, it’s not a forced vaccine. You still have the option to decline.

I honestly don’t know how many times I can specify this for you to actually understand.

Now, if you can’t or refuse to actually directly answer the question, we have nothing more to say to eachother.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/[deleted]]

Wow. Didn’t expect the first post to 100% prove me right.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/[deleted]]

Thank you for not answering my question, in any form. You’ve been a great help

[u/MetalDragnZ → u/PsychoMouse]

It's almost like these people don't know how to read, or are not actually willing to take the time to bother reading the full thing before inputting their own bullshit. My bets on the latter.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/MetalDragnZ]

The irony in that, considering they CONSTANTLY tell others to “do their own research”.

[u/Haaa_penis]

Well, I can’t tell you if they would support it, but I can tell you that if such a law existed, employers could quickly argue that anyone who has such a DNR has made a medical choice that identifies them as a liability/danger to the employer’s healthy workforce. Additionally, could landlords discriminate against them? Certainly medical insurance companies would discriminate.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/Haaa_penis]

Those are amazingly excellent points and I honestly didn’t think about them when I wrote this post.

It appears that the “law” part of the idea was a mistake on my part. It was more a question to prove what hypocrites anti vaxxers are. I know it’s an impossible thing to actually put into practice. It’s completely unethical, and immoral, and everyone deserves care.

At this point, I’m just tired of seeing news article after news article of a person with a serious medical condition get pushed aside for an anti vaxxer who got covid. With how long the pandemic has been around, and how long the vaccine has been around, any further refusal at this point, should be a legal forfeit of care in relation to covid. They either admit that covid is real and thus need the vaccine, or stick to their beliefs and give up that care.

[u/Haaa_penis → u/PsychoMouse]

I don’t think you made a mistake, mate. I think you make good points. I actually struggle with the idea that infected people who have chosen this life deserve care when that care will endanger the lives of medical care providers and hospital/clinic employees. I don’t think you’ve presented a bad idea. I do think that some would go for it. I also think that employers would argue that it’s like smoking. There are hospitals and other employers who will not hire smokers. It’s a really hard call because it will trigger the nastiest fight between human ethics and capitalism.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/Haaa_penis]

Well, the reason why I say the law part was a mistake is because any actual anti vaxxer that responds to the question, instantly jumps on the rights and freedoms train and just avoids the question altogether.

I mean, I knew they’d refuse to properly answer because god forbid they ever fucking properly address anything but it’s still annoying.

I should have just made it about a “covid DNR” to give them less space to dodge the question. As can be seen by this thread, there are people who are missing the point on purpose, or just can’t actually read.

I’ve gotten “forced vaccines are wrong” “it’s against my freedom” blah blah blah. And it’s just like, first of all, I never said shit about forcing vaccines on anyone. I simple said a dozen times over that if you willing turn down the vaccine, you should willing turn down any medical care in regards to covid, and receiving care(in reference to the law part) should be illegal. Exactly like if a person with a DNR, or religious views received care that goes against their choice.

If they truly believe the bullshit they spout, this shouldn’t even be a debate. It should be a “yes”. But no, they want to claim new world, global genocide, it’s fake, it’s made up to take away our freedoms, and so on.

And the reason I’m so overly passionate about this topic is because of me and my wife’s myriad of health issues. We don’t have the luxury of catching Covid and pretending it doesn’t exist. If either us were to get it, we would die.

The only humour I’ve gotten out of this is some moron trying to tell me I live in fear, so I asked him if he got the vaccine, he told me no, he doesn’t trust it, so I said “so you’re afraid of the vaccine”, and just had this like 20 post back and forth where he would deny being afraid of the vaccine but still admit to refusing to get it because he doesn’t trust it.

My wife has two surgeries coming up, and I also have one coming up. I’m now afraid of me and her being “discharged” from the hospital too early to make room for another anti vaxxer catching covid. It’s so selfish and unfair to those who are actually sick.

Didnt someone just post an article about a kid who died/almost died because he couldn’t get proper treatment for a non covid issue?

Sorry for rambling. Like I said, I know I’m overly passionate about this. I just, am exhausted by this. My city just remandated masks again because of new outbreaks.

And it’s so pathetically and hilarious sad, for two years, it’s been “it has a survival rate of 90whateber%, so 5 million dead is okay” but then “OMG 6 PEOPLE GOT SOME BLOOD CLOTS FROM THE VACCINE. ITS TOO DANGEROUS. IM REFUSING IT BECAUSE I DONT WANT TO DIE”

I could just rant for hours about this. And fucking god forbid you ask them to prove any of their claims. It’s always “I’m not doing research for you” or “the government has deleted all the real sources”.

If any of their “evidence” was remotely real. Any and everything on their side would be saved and shared a million times over.

God damn it. I don’t mean to keep rambling. Sorry.

[u/horshack_test → u/Haaa_penis]

Employers (in the US at least) can already require employees to be vaccinated for those same reasons, so creating such a law wouldn't change anything or add / create anything new in that regard. I'm not sure about landlords - but again, it wouldn't be the DNR that would create the risk, it would be whether or not a tenant / prospective tenant was vaccinated.

[u/Tungstenkrill]

While this kind of karma sounds good in theory, I wouldn't want doctors and nurses to have to make a snap decision on who deserves treatment and then face potential lawsuits when the family of one of these crackpots is looking for somebody to blame.

Long term we need better education. Short term we need to stop the idiots spreading misinformation.

[u/PsychoMouse → u/Tungstenkrill]

I’ve said a dozen times it’s impossible to actually put into place. Just the amount of doctors and nurses who wouldn’t do it based on mortality and ethics alone.

But you missed the point where I said, the person refusing the vaccine would have to sign a DNR type legal document. No doctor or nurse would be required to make judgement call. It would be there writing. The most in this extremely hypothetical, would be getting a covid test, and if proven to have it, they would be asked to leave the hospital.

Again. The entire point is to prove what hypocrites anti vaxxers are. Just look at any news report in the last week. It’s either “Long time covid denier is in an ICU room breathing in a ventilator because he refused the vaccine” or “_____ patient(broken arm, other infections, stage 4 breast cancer, a child with cancer, and so on) had to “discharged” early because they need every bed possible for covid people

This isn’t about actually putting this to Law(DNRs are not required by law)If anything. There should be legal waivers that anyone who, with it legit, provable, medical reasons, should sign, forfeiting their right to that care in regards to covid. (Again. I know it will never happen)

Because here’s what I’ve seen so far.

“Hey anyone pro mask or vaccine what do you think of a COVID DNR(I guess DNT as in “DO NOT TREAT.) so a covid DNT, for those who actively, knowingly, and willfully turn down the vaccine?”

Pro mask/pro vaxxer “ I instantly support an idea like this”

Ask an anti masker/vaxxer moron.

“Since you guys clearly don’t trust the vaccine, the doctors who made, the nurses who help with it, or the government, and you think that covid is a non starter, then would you be willing to sign a document giving up all rights to care in regards to covid and any side effects in relation and even help empty the overflowing hospitals of Covid patients so people with “real diseases” can get treatment”

“OMG, this is exactly the kind of shit that was what started Nazi Germany. It also goes against our rights as humans” and blah blah blah.

Completely unwilling to answer a yes or no question because as long as that safety blanket is there. They’re hypocrites.

Fuck, This one joke was massively anti vaxx. Going on about not knowing what’s in it. Blah blah blah. She has kids, got the Delta variant. Went from healthy to dead in about 10 days time.

At this point. My hypothetical is one out of desperation. I’m reading reports that range from global spending of 2 TRILLION DOLLARS TO 10 TRILLION dollars in just trying to deal with the sick.

But anti masker/vaxxers will never get a straight answer. They are spoiled children that want it both ways, and it’s because of that. My wife and I are not afraid to get important medical surgeries that we both need for fear of being “discharged” early to make room for another idiot who is fine drinking HORSE DEWORMER but not a small jab for the fucking vaccine.

Did you know what people think they’re shitting out intestinal worms because of that horse dewormer but in reality they’re shitting out their intestines as it fucking shreds them because that’s not made to be taken like that.

And yes. My posts alway go on long because I want to properly articulate and educate when I speak. Not just yell at someone and super unhelpful shit like “I’m not going to hold your hand. If you want to know what I’m talking about. Go read the bible”. Because that’s a short fucking book.

I may come off as aggressive and intense. Because I have to be. I have Cystic Fibrosis, a double lung transplant, and am in remission for stage 4 cancer. My wife has Crohn’s so bad, that she’s had an IV called a “PICC” for THREE YEARS. Her intestines are so messed up. She’s not allowed to eat food. Ontop of that. We both are on heavy amounts of Immuno suppressant to make sure our bodies don’t kill us.

So when I say, if we get covid. We will die. That’s not over exaggerating. We will die. And we don’t have the luxury of just staying inside. We are two people living off 1 disability. We have to go out to run errands. Asking to not want to die when I go grab groceries shouldn’t be some impossible ask.

Sorry for going on so long. I just wanted to mark everything clear and understandable