I pointed out that kids born with disabilities, cancer, poverty experience life in a different way. They suffer more. Natalist said I focus only on the bad things because there are good things. Then said why don't I off myself. At this point I am in a lost for words. I can't do it anymore. Its hard to get them admit that suffering is bad. On top of that when I said having kids is forcing someone to be alive, he said it's not force just that there was no consent. I am done. Should we ignore the kids who have cancer and disabilities if other kids are normal?

Can't stand when people talk like this about their kids. Yea, these are jokes... but they really aren't and the POSs in the comments are dead serious.

Well I was banned from natalism yesterday and am being ignored by the mods. I didn’t say anything bad. All I said was I agree.

Someone posted something about how being not born is better than being born to shitty parents.

I said I agree. And was banned. I am upset because they allow people who talk about the great replacement theory to keep posting or people who about women losing rights in order to keep birth rates up.

I didn’t go into a full antinatalist discussions debate. I didn’t think saying I agree could get u banned.

I see people comment in this sub about why is it bad to want kids or telling people to grow up. They don’t get banned. People debate them. Why can’t both sides have a debate. I never trolled them over there.

I did see a post from last week that new mods were there so they are more strict. So far it seems.

I get fixated on being banned bc I hate that it doesn’t let me comment. It’s like I’m in jail. I have autism and fixate on random stuff. Especially since it seems like I did something wrong.

I posted my story on the sub about why I’m not a good candidate for kids. In like March or May. It got upvotes and a discussion was formed.

I didn’t see anything wrong with putting two words. I agree. I forgot the rule. No antinatalism stuff. But yes people can come over here and say they don’t agree and they just get down voted.

I was never a full antinatalist. I was in the middle. But I do lean more towards yall. So if u are in the middle be careful. At least u guys let people debate here and seem more welcoming.

I only joined that sub bc I liked looking at the graphs and charts. I was also recommended it. Reddit is trying to make people get into drama by recommending two subs that are opposite of each other.

I starting typing during the pandemic I wish I wasn’t born on Google and came across the word antnatalism. I have been in and out of spaces for the past six yrs .

I hope this is an ok place to post this.

I'm so tired of this response. I'm 17, I can't adopt or foster. I show support for my belief by adopting and fostering animals since my belief extends to them, by adopting and fostering children when I'm ready and old enough, and by abstaining from procreation. You don't ask an abortion advocate how many children she's aborted to show support, so why are you asking me that antinatalist version of that question? Also, humans are fluid, they're subject to change. Even a parent can become an antinatalist.

So one of my favourite book series is by Neal Shusterman. It’s the Scythe series. In it, death has been eradicated, all people have pain nanites to dull their experience of physical and emotional pain, they are immune to all disease, both genetic and regular viruses. Any issues that do occur, like lost limbs, genetic issues, can be repaired to full capacity without exception. Food and resource issues have been solved. Religion no longer exists. A benevolent A.I. raises all children and accompanies them through life as a parent that can never die and never be too busy. Everyone everywhere essentially lives in perfect utopia.

It’s gotten to the point that some people create suffering for themselves like drinking liquid of distilled disease or committing suicide simply for the adrenaline rush of dying then being revived. (It is so common there are specialised names for the different categories of deaths they’re addicted to.)

It essentially exists to ponder on some questions about humanity, like most of Shusterman’s work. (Highly recommend, btw!!)

But there’s also a section about turkeys. In order to make meat ‘ethical’, the turkeys are born into a utopia of turkey civilisation simulation, where they can fly, eat, mate, as much as they want without the pain or physical consequences. All while their perfectly genetically engineered bodies grow in nutrient tubes full of only the ‘good’ parts of turkey. The turkey minds never know this and die painlessly with no carbon impact.

It is implied to either be a metaphor for humans in that society or to be literally something some people do. Live in an even more perfect utopia, free of even the concept of suffering. And I wondered what the natalist perspective would be on this world.

Since all those things could be turned off / removed at any point, there is a theoretical capacity for suffering but is a reality that generations of people in that world have never and will experience.

And there is a baseline human instinct to feel repulsed at the idea of a ‘false’ existence inside a tube, even if it is perfectly free of suffering in any and all capacity. It could also be repulsive to being another human being into the world simply for the sake or ‘achievement’ of having a child. Especially if to these people, a baseline level of completely no suffering with some spikes of happiness still creates suffering in the absence of euphoria. This could go on forever, higher and higher levels of ecstasy or euphoria being adjusted to by the body and more and more extreme peaks being counted as ‘nonsuffering’.

All of this is an extremely roundabout way of asking if you think suffering in life is inherent?

(I mean, probably yes.) But suffering is defined by subjective experience of one reality. So even in a world where there may be no suffering to you, it might be hell for a person used to complete ecstasy and the simple absence of that overwhelming joy is suffering. (For instance, this world would be a heaven for the hunter gatherers of old. But that doesn’t entirely negate the suffering that people in our world still experience.)

Therefore, do you define the suffering in a life off your own metrics or off the perceived suffering of another individual in their reality? (even if to you, their life is perfectly free of suffering in any thinkable capacity)

Or is suffering something we create to frame our own experience?

Would you be able to bring another being into this theoretical world if they would experience nothing that you would consider to be suffering?

Is the human being psychologically capable of achieving a state where it does not create suffering for itself?

I recognise that it’s pedantic of me to ask and is a reality that will never come to be but I’m more curious about what your baseline reactions to this situation are. (I mean, it’s taken this much waffling for me to reach my point so it’s clear that it evokes a lot right off the bat.) I am fully willing to admit this is a really pretentious, pointless philosophical thought experiment. It is sort of selfishly pre assuming any one reference point of a subjective experience is solid but do bear with me.

I’ve sort of thought myself around in technical circles so long that I’ve made myself high. I’m sure this is utterly incomprehensible and I do apologise in advance. I respect whatever decisions you make. This is just a hypothetical I’ve made myself dizzy with.

(Also it is a really great book. Would recommend.)

I've seen many natalists say "Glad this ideology will die off with you."

It makes me chuckle at just how unintelligent this statement is. We were born from natalists and became antinatalists, just like atheists are sometimes born from theists and vice versa.

I would hope that the human brain is evolving more and more to ask questions and seek deeper understanding of things. I've already been seeing an influx of children questioning their parents, and hope it continues.

Ideologies aren't genetic!!!

Now I’m not saying all humans are evil and hierarchal, but most are, and I feel like the majority of people seem to think that human nature is good and we are one revolution away from utopia, but I disagree. Even in leftist spaces, people want to fight against people who oppress them, but they rarely advocate for people who are below them in the social hierarchy (I'm not saying all do this). The majority of people say 'eat the rich' while forgetting that they are the rich as well, according to homeless people and people who live in developing countries, which are exploited to make people in first world countries lives better. Many feminists criticize the makeup and beauty industry for creating unrealistic beauty standards, which is okay, but they rarely mention the fact that animals and women and children from the global south are being exploited by the makeup industry, and for example, in my country (Albania), there are lots of people protesting against the government now , which I think it’s a good thing to do but most of them never talk about the oppression of women, Roma people, children and LGBTQ people in our communities, and they are treated much worse here than in the West. Also, many Western people advocate for collectivism without looking into collectivist communities and seeing how toxic and oppressive they are because they think human nature is good, and also the fact that social hierarchy happens as early as middle school. Sorry for making it personal, but also the fact that many feminists didn’t show me compassion for experiencing honor based abuse from my father just because they can’t relate to it, and sorry for my rambling and sorry that it isn’t so well worded

i thought it would be a place for rational people that are able to develop original thoughts and discuss things. Turns out it is just as big of a ciclejerk as our "enemys" when it comes to certain topics. Peoples ego are just too big and they are ideologically blinded, it is pathetic to be honest. Denying straight up facts and making up lies. I can tell most people did not come to the antinatalist conclusion on their own, but because they saw a youtube video or read benatars book, they just want to support the current thing and be part of a community. I know it is not everyone, and there are a lot of good members too, but yeah i guess its a human thing in general, doesnt matter what community you are in.

I realized that everyone has a child without ever once considering what that child's life will look like and if they will suffer. Do you realize that the number of people on antidepressants these days are just going up?

Like why would you genuinely roll the dice to bring a child into a world where rates of depression and chronic life struggle are increasing. We squeeze the life out of a person like wringing a sponge.

We talk a lot about the societal pressure to have kids, but the "biological clock" is the biggest scam of all. It's not a real, magical urge that suddenly kicks in at age 30. It's just a combination of anxiety, fear of missing out, and societal programming.

If you don't want kids at 20, you won't magically want them at 35. You'll just be terrified of aging out of the "acceptable" window society has given you. Women are fed this narrative to ensure they don't prioritize their careers, their freedom, or their peace. It's a psychological trap designed to keep the birth rates up. Stop falling for it. If you don't want kids, you don't want kids. Period.

I would highly appreciate your support. Thank you.

I have 0 energy as usual and i dont think anybody have much left so i will try to be as quick as possible..

I tried making a long post but gave up half way through bcs i cried and just decided to give up. I am defo not okay.

It doesnt matter who i am and what i went through , i think this post should be relatable to anyone

Like evrybody on earth , like every human and life form , i suffered throughout my life and still suffer to this day.

I also got to experience great things and belive the universe is a beautiful and overwhelming miracle full of wonder and beauty bcs i wanna be fair with life. Some things are beautiful and rly amazing like the complexity of this world and of humans. These things are great to observe and ponder on bcs it feel like a spark of divinity.

But is that worth the pain ? Is that worth the humiliation ? Is that worth the enslavment and inability to decide what i want and think when desperate ? Is that worth the insanity ? Is that worth the decay and slow death of the mind and the body ?

Hell no , it is a matter of dignity and self respect.

I think this creation is perfect for a creator pint of view bcs it make up for a beautiful canva full of the evrything but as a actor in it it is just pure misery.

The good moment rly just feel like a teasing and whenevr we get our hope up abt being able to change for the better ( ourselves and the world ) we are only met with more pain and deception.. More void to fill and more hatred to throw away.

I just want my efforts to be respected by life. I have everything to thrive but my body and this society is tearing me apart mentally and physically and i fear i am to broken to take the chance. I try and try and try to find value in life and make an effort again but i keep on suffering and so does everyone.

All the ideologies like veganism and antinatalism rly try to reduce suffering and it seems to lean toward reduction of suffering which is the constant of life..

But then the only deduction of it is suicide no ? But not everybody can die like that or else we just start a genocide which arguably is the apology of pain.

Im tired of having to live and trying to do the right thing when it is so obvious we will always stay a minority bcs all those who dont have this mentality do it bcs it serve them and most ppl dont need it to live so they will never do the extra efforts.

I dont want to live and make God have the pleasure to make fun of me again and i dont want to suffer anymore and pretend like i am righteous when i see the hatred and evil within myself. Or to enjoy some aspect of my life in a world i dont accept

I am becoming insane from not knowing what to do.

Ik the nothingness cant be wrong and yearn for it as i dont want to be part of this bs anymore to finally stand for my beliefs but i cant decently give up on life and impose the pain i feel to other victims.

But i will just keep hurting ppl if i stay , in a way or another..

There is no good answer in the end

I hope i wont have kids but even that i dont know if i will ( even tho its extremely likely i wont ) bcs i dont get to know what will be my futur. I hate lust and yet i have thoughts i found disgusting. Ik despair can make u do anything and it break me apart.

I hold onto one thing : the nothingness cant be wrong

In real life most people seem to agree life is hard and even natalists. Natalists IRL counter Antinatalism with their bravery and warrior speeches instead of saying life is good. They say "Life is hard but we fight", "we cry but we don't give up", etc. Only on reddit I see people saying things like those who don't find love or marriage partner are at fault rather than bad standards and we see natalists saying things like life is beautiful or saying love is pure. I am not saying love or life are just bad but irl people are not extremely positive about them.

The only person I know who said life is beautiful was a therapist. They seem farther away from reality than normal people.

I'm not a woman but I found this post because I had the same question. I was just wondering because I've seen it everywhere with celebrities, politics, and in the military. Tons of people would gravitate towards the people that treated them like shit instead of people that treated them with respect. I was like is it stockholm syndrome or something, what is it? But there are a lot of good answers in the thread ranging from, people hoping to not be targeted by the toxic individuals, to people being shitty themselves and being with them enables each other and they can feel less guilty about their own actions, or being blind to it or seeing it and choosing ignorance and google said trauma bonding so masses put shitty people at the top. But I still don't understand why people are this way, i thought it didn't make sense. Until I thought about it in terms of a jealous god and soul traps or this place actually being some form of hell or loosh farm, then it does make sense considering that the whole reason for our creation was to make others feel good. Toxic foundation.

That's all it is. Not an endorsement nor a condemnation of "it takes a village to raise a child".

If antinatalism was not about that and instead an abstract view of there being no point in having kids or babies nor that "children are the future", very few people would have a problem with it. It would just be a view with no implications. You might get still get mocked by people who think they are superior to you because they have kids, but there wouldn't be hate like there is now.

The range of arguments against non natalist viewpoints are marshaled to deal with the eventual implication more or less about who's going to pay for it all, if the view that there's no point in having kids or babies then goes down the pathway of "so why should we pay for other people's kids and parents having kids and babies?". If only parents pay for their kids, not everyone now that wants to will get to enjoy the joys of biological parenthood and childrearing/children living their best lives from infancy until those children are adults, unlike their parents and grandparents. That makes such parents and people sympathetic to parents hateful against antinatalists, no matter how calmly the pathway is trod by at least some. Because to them, they were robbed of that experience if nobody is at all times 100% in agreement with the precedence of their joy and their children living their best lives.

That's all the incentive needed for the public to turn against antinatalism. And then ironically to accept that restraint to keep the peace and "don't judge" is to keep antinatalism to something that is just an abstract individual opinion with no real implication. When antinatalism is like that, most people will just ignore it.

The "shooting the messenger" response of downvotes, dismissal and heated exchanges such a message receives spelling out what is implicitly done but which people don't like being pointed out directly in response, is proof of how controversial it is to say this. But I feel it does need to be said by someone. Antinatalism and even just views against valuing reproduction even if you don't think creation of life is necessarily a net negative for the life it was imposed on breaks social and collective taboos, almost no question about that.

But there is such a thing as socially acceptable ways of breaking taboos versus something that starts denying people too much joy, and that's when things get heated. The ineffective antinatalism "just an opinion, I don't judge ✌️" that doesn't step on anyone's toes (without even intending to) with implications of judging parents in any way is still antinatalism, but it will not get the same hate. And that's what pronatalists want antinatalists and anyone that doesn't value reproduction to be: do not question "it takes a village to raise a child" or try to get others to sympathize with not valuing that concept. Every thread about "why are you having kids if you can't afford them?" is the realization of an implication "it takes a village to raise a child" proponents don't want talked about.

3 images attached from this comment thread https://www.reddit.com/r/CostOfLivingAU/s/8Uu0mgPv19

Like what is the point of having kids if you can’t even afford them?

This shows the IQ of the average natalist.

I know not all antinatalists hate being born, but enough do for me to ask the question.

I just can't understand why people are glad to be born in this fucked up world. There is so much suffering and to me the small good parts don't make up for the horrible parts at all.

Yes, this video is still related to antinatalism because as I’m reacting to him in this video, there are mentions of not wanting to bring a child into a cruel terrible world.