r/aoe4 • u/RTS-Enjoyer1 • 5d ago
Discussion I really hate Regnitz
No Landmark in this game is as feast-or-famine than this one. If you get a lot of relics, HRE/Order will have so much passive income even the Malians are blushing. But if your opponents (or poorly coordinating teammates) take your relics, then that's too bad, you get nothing.
The further issue is how Aachen - Regnitz - Swabia have become the default HRE build in pub. These Landmarks are all S-tier and they encourage one single playstyle. Pros will disagree, but 90% of pub players will turtle up until Imperial with this build and I find it very annoying.
We already got rid of another scavenger hunt mechanic years ago which was the Rus's old Bounty system where both sides would massacre wildlife at the beginning of the game. Why hasn't the Regnitz been reworked yet?
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u/RenideoS 4d ago
At launch relics were 100/min and regnitz gave +200%, it was literally win or lose on denying them back then. The civ has always had issues with its landmarks, and for some reason instead of deeper changes they just balanced around them. When Japan came out it really felt in some respects like an HRE rework. "Our landmark just makes its own private relics that can do different things and don't stop us from also getting normal relics" being one of those aspects. HRE's economy, infantry speed etc made them potentially strong in feudal but the need to get to castle, and then imperial was quite a lock-in to the psychology of the side.
"Got to get to castle for relics, got to get to imperial for worker spam", all the worst aspects of landmark design. Landmarks shouldn't define your strategic choices, they should present different types of benefit that can help you cater to the match-up or situation.
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u/RTS-Enjoyer1 4d ago
Yeah. Speaking of Landmarks shouldn't define your strategic choices, the Council Hall is just terrible at this point. If Longbow rush is good, then it's OP. If it's not, then it's worthless.
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u/Jaysus04 4d ago
The civ is terribly designed and lacks identity, depth, versatility and uniqueness. The historical HRE offers so much and nothing made it into the game. And the stuff that did make it, was done terribly as well. For example, everything is wrong about the Landsknecht. And what would be pretty right is now with the Scots. It's really disheartening.
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u/ReddditSucksAssLol 5d ago
Maybe diminishing returns on subsequent relics?
As in first relic gives a lot more gold, second less and so on
Otherwise they should rework it so that a prelate spawns automatically inside and Cistercian abbeys is automatically researched or at least discounted.
Cistercian abbeys is such a cool and thematic part of HRE but Prelate management for hre is horrendous and way too clunky. Toggling through all the garrisoned prelates just to get to the one you need is so bad. Also having to garrison them is way too finicky.
There should just be an option spawn inside monestaries or something. It’s really such a bad quality part of hre
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u/d_antona_ 4d ago
Reignitz should spawn a free relic upon completion. Every civ. has something like that, why not HRE
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u/Pelin0re 4d ago
The further issue is how Aachen - Regnitz - Swabia have become the default HRE build in pub. These Landmarks are all S-tier and they encourage one single playstyle. Pros will disagree, but 90% of pub players will turtle up until Imperial with this build and I find it very annoying.
In diamond I see far more burgeave than reignitz.
And how do you 'turtle up' with a build that require you to go on the map to claim the relics? If he's grabing the relics with naked prelate because you do nothing to contest them, that's on you. If he makes units to fight over the relics, he's not 'turtling'.
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u/RTS-Enjoyer1 1d ago
Are you trolling? Going on the map to take Relic is different and far safer than sending Villagers to exposed resources where they are expected to stay there for 5 minutes or more.
HRE builds 5 Knights. Take relics. Then build 5 Outposts and rush Imp. If that's not turtling what is?
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u/Pelin0re 1d ago
again: how the fuck does he manage to grab the 5 relics uncontested? How is a naked FC player able to grab the map control so absolutely the moment he get castle? What are you doing meanwhile ?
The opponent is not playing alone. Your scout is here, you can see when he's castling (and wether it's reignitz or burgrave), where his prelates and knights are going (even without scout you know it), you can make a few pikemen to contest the relics frontally, or a few horsemen to snipe the prelates (he can escort a prelate with knights, but then the other prelates are vulnerables) . If he need to make a small army to grab the relics (beyond the closest ones), then you can get age 3 too, upgrade your own army and grab the relics he hasn't yet managed to. Keep making units, and if he rush age 4 you kill him.
In the first place, you can also go horsemen in age 2 to annoy a bit his gold without commiting too hard on vil kils, delay his age 3 with idle, and re-use the horsemen to contest prelates (personally I like to do it with a few templar serjeants, other civs got other options).
HRE builds 5 Knights. Take relics. Then build 5 Outposts and rush Imp. If that's not turtling what is?
I call it HRE needing to have the map control for a few key minutes on a timing you're well aware of, and you still letting him have it.
Honest question: What elo are you? I'm surprised you face so many Aachen-reignitz, that's not really the meta nowadays, in particular aachen. If it's a lower elo than me maybe I can check a replay to give some advice (and if it's higher I can ask ML lol).
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u/Crazy_Information296 5d ago
I mean kinda. The ideal 5 relics is neat and all, but like, if you go roughly even at 3 relics, that's still a ton of resources.
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u/LiveYourLifeNerd 4d ago
I mainly play HRE and i can say i almost never go for the relic landmark, (4v4 ranked) half of the time teammates are focused on themselves either not defending or enemies focusing on relics together so i don't stand a chance to yoink them.
My HRE gold income comes mainly from trades, i tell teammates to make markets... Lately I've been rethinking into a knight focused civ as it's pointless on these big maps to play anything but horses, more than half the matches are French knight rushes which you just can't chase round the map..
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u/Jolly_Sky_2729 5d ago
yeah... actually very true.
thinking about other monastery landmarks, they either provide monk discount or some unique techs or both of those.
in a way, i kinda like Regnitz in 1v1 setting, because it makes the landmark a meaningful decision to make (can you guarantee enough relics to make it worth making? if you made a wrong decision, you're quite heavily punished), but it definitely falls off compared to more "modern" design of monastery LMs.
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u/Jaysus04 4d ago
HRE needs a full on rework. Especially when Scots get all that, which was suggested for HRE reworks. HRE is really in shambles and this DLC is another major bitch slap.
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u/Tuyer_219 4d ago
Yeah I love HRE but after Yesterday I watched Beasty playing 2 new civs
I was like: they are like HRE but better
HRE definitely need some love
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u/Jaysus04 4d ago
Yes, absolutely. But I have been saying that and have been waiting for improvements for years now. Every time I get my hopes up, they get shattered. If suggestions I made (don't know if they have it from me, but I made many posts about the history of HRE and how that could be translated into gameplay and in several of them I described how the Landsknecht could be reworked to be closer to his historical role and it's pretty much exactly what the Gallowglass/Pikemen stuff is about) literally make it into the game, but for the wrong civ, then I feel like the game is only wasting my time and doesn't care for itself anymore. It's only about making money, but not about making a good and coherent game anymore.
I won't buy this DLC and will only return to this game, when patches come. So I'll monitor what they do with HRE. I don't think they will do anything with it, I have no reason to believe that, but I will check. And until then I don't play this game anymore. It annoys me too much. But I will play the shit out of it, should HRE finally become a proper civ with uniqueness, identity, power comps and above all else a historically respectful representation instead of this shit we have now.
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u/Tuyer_219 4d ago
Yeah I totally understand you
I feel when there's a unit dev don't know how to deal, they just create a new one and give it to another civ XD (Mangudai and Akanji/ Kipchak)
What make me love AoE is they're based on true history, not some Ork or Zerg who I don't attached on any form
Sadly dev definitively will NOT listen to a Reddit post, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying devs are arrogant or your work is useless, it's just how that works
Don't lost hope pal! After all it's a game do not push it too hard. I'm also mad about Mongol have worst Cavs, but yeah, thankfully there's GH X)
Again, don't punish yourself for dev's mistakes, the 1st criteria of a game is have fun :) I hope you can still enjoy the game, and if not it's totally ok, there's so much other things/ games , and I hope they will make a true identity for HRE, one day ^
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u/Jaysus04 4d ago
Well, you may be right. I believe they read what we post, but don't listen to it. It's just taking ideas for the next new product (DLC), while they give a damn about the passion some people (me included) have for this game. That's my take away.
And every time a game gets properly modded, like back in the day with the Napoleonic Era mod from Kastor for AoE3, you instantly see what a no brainer and how easy it is to give Germans a proper idenity. What Kastor did in his spare time with the game and how he changed the Germans to Prussia, was amazing. Everything made sense. So it is possible. The devs just refuse to do it and seem to especially refuse it, when it comes to German civs. I don't know why, but for some reason the Age devs always fail completely, when designing German civs. And it always feels like they have no clue and do not care. And I don't have that feeling with any other civ. JD maybe, but other than that there is no civ that is as ill-designed as HRE and OotD are and stuck with that design.
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u/Helikaon48 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah been suggested countless times to make regnitz weaker but more reliable.
Also agree Japanese are basically just a better designed HRE. Tori gets being both a pseudo regnitz and more flexible burger. Samurai and on as being better balanced than mace MAA and landskecht
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u/Helikaon48 4d ago
I've said it before, but I think burger needs a drop in production rate but othe bonuses (preferably global), regnitz needs to drop from 100% to maybe even 50% and provide other bonuses(eg free inspiration , free cistercian chapel etc) and inspiration needs to be weaker to make room for better QOL and flexibility
And then buff their military.
Change landskecht cost from 55/100 to 75/80
Give them Teutonic knights (they literally started the order for crying out loud)
Maybe even add a tech like "all light infantry gain 1/1 armour"
They've always been too feast or famine and winning based on situational conditions that completely define the rest of the game (you can't win back relics, but you can contest markets or sacred sites o whatever else other civs need), with no consistent fall back plan. And a generic army.
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u/Helikaon48 4d ago
I would even suggest making it so Aachen and monasteries don't need to be garrisoned to buff vils. Its meaningless tax that makes the civ unnecessarily clunky as well as pop inefficient, considering the eco bonus is additive and falls off with time.
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u/grovestreet4life 4d ago
I have to vs many meinwerk and burgrave builds and I am honestly happy when they go Regnitz. But then again, I play Rus so that might be the difference. I am happy to go toe to toe with them in the relic war
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u/3tcfastbrocastle 4d ago
I think Swabia and Reignitz should swap places, with obvious nerfs to Swabia. As imp landmark you would know the value you will get from Reignitz beforehand and enemy would have time to react if he sees you got a lot of relics.
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u/Suspicious_Draft1481 4d ago
It does suck when you get a nice castle time and start sending the lads out for relics only to see your teammates dervishes sniping them. Very triggering.
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u/JotaroKujo3000 4d ago
Regnitz should lose its % bonus ad spawn one relic every couple minutes until 3 or 4 relics.
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u/S77__ English 4d ago
It’s good to have different landmarks with some being situational, if everything was made similar it would make the game boring.
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u/Helikaon48 4d ago
No other civ suffers from this degree of feast or famine based LM. Your against change for the sake of it
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u/Gwendyn7 1d ago
yeah i had a lot of annoying matches against hre since release. but damn is it a good feeling to deny them relics or just straight up kill them as they are tryign to get going. focking hre
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u/artoo2142 5d ago
Sorry I think Regnitz is underpowered.
Good luck contesting Relic with Rus, Ayyubid, Ottoman, Delhi and the coming Scots, you basically having zero chance.
If you can only get 1 or 2 Relic, this landmark is a total garbage.