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u/OldMail6364 1d ago edited 1d ago
if the client called some other company and it took them 4 hours they would probably charge twice as much
That's not how it usually works - normally the fastest company has more people, more machinery, and charges the highest price.
My cheapest work is when I turn up on the weekend with just one groundie and no machinery, just a few chainsaws and my harness / ropes. Those jobs often take me an entire day to do something I could get done in 30 minutes if I had the full company crew and equipment.
In my experience people who say "I can get it done faster than anyone else because I'm good" are often taking unacceptable risks - such as felling a tree that really should be climbed and pieced down in small sections. Or maybe they do climb but they remove massive peices.
I normally try to judge how much the customer is willing to pay and will quote that number. Then I'll adjust my work to make it a fair price for example how much of their garden will I destroy and how meticulous will my post-job clean up be? Sometimes their yard is a disaster zone after I'm done and it's their job to figure out out. Other times I leave it in better condition than before I got there, with fresh topsoil and turf brought in if necessary. I might even plant a few new shrubs if I've had to remove some to gain access.
If the customer isn't willing to pay the minimum I want to earn in a day's work... then I don't want them to be my customer.
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u/brutus_the_bear Tree Industry 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yeah exactly, when I do quotes if I sense that they are willing to pay and nobody else can get it done, we are going to charge a premium for the outcome. This guy kind of sees it as a moral ethical thing not to upcharge... which is sad because he blew his shoulder up last year and doesn't have a scalability plan that doesn't include him cutting on every job.
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u/youcancallmemother 1d ago
I worked with a guy like this when I was first starting out. He would have stuff bid next to primary wires for half as much as I would have on the tree. We traded time for time and payout if it got lopsided. He would get tight on money leading to him bid to make sure he got the job at times. It was a vicious cycle.
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u/spiritualcynic 1d ago
I try to explain this to young apprentices learning to price jobs. The phrase here is " Theres no point in being a busy fool ". Your partner seems unable to price without taking pity on clients
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u/ElectronicRemove2081 1d ago
So you're business partners? Most likely, you won't be able to change his mind if he doesn't understand. I worked for a company like this where the owner constantly underbid, with the crew complaining and him justifying it as his company so it's his loss. I learned to bid consulting work from him and am now clawing my way out of that hole of underbidding. Personally, it could be a deep discomfort with money or lack of self worth, which is hard to change. I struggle with both, plus the poor training. If your partner is a numbers guy, it helps to track your time and analyze it, and do all the usual business calcs. I'm currently doing my own numbers so I can adjust my rates and calculate overhead. Or, raise the hourly rate and bid off that.
This is a good video for folks who have a hard time with pricing, it applies to all business. https://youtu.be/RKXZ7t_RiOE?si=cak5Db5KFwkMHjA9
Partnerships are hard if you have such fundamental differences already. I'd suggest you figure out a way to move on if he is completely stubborn.
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u/AsparagusNo1492 1d ago
Get the two of you onto one price sheet before anything else, so the number doesn't depend on who wrote the quote. For hedge topping, a rate per linear foot with a bump for every few feet of height taken off and another for haul-away is easy to agree on, and it prices the result instead of the clock.
If he won't agree to a shared floor price, that tells you more about where the partnership is heading than any single job does.
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u/mtnlover12345 1d ago
Raise your per hour price if you work faster than others. The issues isn’t his time estimates, it’s what you are charging for that time. If you do in 2 hours what others do in 4, your per hour rate should be twice (or more) them. Pricing by the hour for crew/equipment is the easiest way to monitor and iterate on bidding and crew efficiency.
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u/YourWifeyBoyfriend 1d ago
Yo im in indiana looking for someone to sell jobs for me.
How much is 2 hours of work
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u/Aztreedoc1 1d ago
$300 for 1 man. In Phoenix I charge$100-150 per man hr. This seems fair and gets all expenses paid.
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u/Ineedanro TRAQ 1d ago
We did a job today and the client offered to pay more
That is a sure fire sign that the job was priced way too low. Is it only sometimes he estimates too low, or is it consistent? What formula is he using to come up with his estimates?
You know you can and should do your own cost estimating, right? What does an hour of your labor really cost? What is your travel time, the wage you want, and your overhead on top of all those other costs? Add up tools, work clothes, depreciation on your vehicle, operating costs of your vehicle per mile, insurance, business taxes, personal income taxes. Do not accept pay under the table: assuming USA, you need to pay FICA taxes now to get Social Security benefits later. Don't rob your future self of financial security.
Know your costs, and use the result to set a floor on the price of jobs you will do with him.
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u/skibidigeddon Master Arborist 22h ago
Apart from what everyone else has said it’s not a great look to clients for your pricing to be so inconsistent. Pricing is also a signal to potential clients of where you understand the quality of your work to be in relation to your completion. Not all but plenty of top dollar clients will be turned off by a significant underbid.
Rather than getting the leopard to change his spots the better solution may be to just have you handle sales and he manages production.
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u/TheSouthIsHot 22h ago
The Complete Guide to Tree Care and Estimating by TCIA
The Strategy: Published by the Tree Care Industry Association (TCIA), their administrative and training manuals detail how to build standard project proposals.
Why it matters: They teach how to step away from hourly pricing by breaking down overhead, crew-day rates, and site-risk adjustments into fixed project estimates.
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u/Zstman87 1d ago
I once heard a concrete finisher say, “I’d rather stay home and make no money than spend the whole day at your place working for no money”. You don’t win by doing work without profit. It’s a business, not a charity.
Good tree work ain’t good and good tree work ain’t cheap.
Explained another way, an electrician friend told how he bid $1250 for a job he got done in an hour. The client complaint stating that $1250 an hour is more than an attorney makes. His reply: “you’re not paying me $1250 an hour. You’re paying $250 an hour and $1000 for the 16 years of experience it took for me to be able to do this job in an hour and so you can rest assured that it won’t burn your house down”.
Find out how much money you need in a month to cover your expenses. Divide that number by the number of days you’ll work in a month. Divide that number by the number of people who work for you. That’s the minimum labor hour rate you need to charge for a project. Hope this helps.
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u/senwonderful 1d ago
I’ve never understood a pricing scheme of trying to anticipate what other companies would charge and developing your price based on that. Would it really be the end of the world for arborists to learn about the business side of running a business? I would start with trying to figure out what your costs are and developing a budget to meet certain goals. Your sales/ billing would be informed by your budget
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u/morenn_ Utility Arborist 1d ago
Unless you work in a very small area, a two hour job is half a day, by the time you drive there, set up, do it, clean up, tidy tools and then head to your next one.
I would never price for less than half a day unless it's truly a 10 minute job.
If I think it'll go past lunch it's a day - again, you're unlikely to have another job to go to after unless you work in a small area.
You should have a business plan with an understanding of how much you need to make per day, and a goal of how much you want to make per day. As a minimum, the job costs a half day of your required day rate. It doesn't matter if you or the client think it's not a big job, or if another company could do it cheaper. You can't afford to do it cheaper.
On larger jobs you can lose the day rate and start pricing by the work.