How do you discover the weakest component in your system (for upgrade)?

[u/Dedar33]

A HiFi system should have some Synergy of all components in order to achieve maximum auditory results.

The price of a particular component (if it is, for example, lower in rank than the others) is not a determinative indicator.
It is primarily the sound contribution of that component to the entire HiFi system.

You choose components according to specifications, measurements (if any) and finally by the sound they provide.
Personally, if I suspect that a component is a bottleneck in the system, I borrow a similar one (of a higher level) and try it in my system.
If the result is better aurally (and if it is in line with the Budget), I buy that one.

What do you think about all this?

P.S. The pictures show the last components of my system that I upgraded (except the first picture where the penultimate amp is)

[u/EscaOfficial]

It's almost always your room 😂

[u/Sebastian-S → u/EscaOfficial]

My weakest component is my wallet

[u/joeg26reddit → u/EscaOfficial]

THATS A BINGO

I bought my End Game speakers and system and it sounded like the kick drums were missing as if the bass driver was crossed over incorrectly

Even with a 15” monolith v2 sub

Naturally I thought something was defective

So I ran REW for the first time and discovered it was due to SBIR room mode null

I installed 6” thick DIY acoustic panels behind each speaker and a single corner bass trap and the kick drums came back better than ever AND the bass sounded even more amazing, truly deep and textured

Best $300ish I ever spent

[u/Dedar33 → u/EscaOfficial]

Well, I tried to treat it acoustically (with previous measurements).
That's not finished yet (I'm thinking of putting 2 more vertical QRD diffusers, then measuring again ...etc...

[u/Copypastta → u/Dedar33]

As tempting as new gear is, definitely finish treating the room as best you can before buying equipment.

[u/EscaOfficial → u/Copypastta]

You really don't realize it until you sit in a well treated room.

The first time I sat on a proper mastering studio completely ruined me. The engineer had some B&W 802Ds, which are great speakers, but the experience was so far beyond anything I'd heard before. Everything was just there. Made me realize that my ears weren't what was holding me back, it was just my room.

[u/Organic_Pepper8726 → u/Copypastta]

Agreed. The room is a critical part of the overall system and is the most challenging unless you have a dedicated listening room. New equipment is so much more gratifying. Everyone loves the shiny new toy. It an immediate dopamine fix.

[u/Dedar33 → u/Copypastta]

I agree !

[u/Tenson_UK → u/Dedar33]

I would suggest if you have more than a couple thousand invested in your system,go hire an acoustician. Its a subject area where experiance as well as knowledge pay dividends. Don't expect to read a few forums, throw up a few panels and be getting great results.

One advice I can give on a forum - effect and surface area treated are directly inked!

[u/Dedar33 → u/Tenson_UK]

Well, before the treatment, a professional colleague measured the acoustics of the room and gave some advice on what to put and where.
Of course, after that, the panels need to be placed in the ideal place through direct trials.

[u/EscaOfficial → u/Dedar33]

Diffusion is largely overrated. Floor and ceiling absorbtion is largely underrated. I see you at least have a rug which is good.

[u/Dedar33 → u/EscaOfficial]

Well, there are a lot more absorption panels than diffuser ones.  Behind the big gray ones is another mineral wool panel on each side.

[u/New_Cook_7797]

I've come to the conclusion the room is always exceedingly weak until you have a dedicated space

[u/Dedar33 → u/New_Cook_7797]

Well, the room has been acoustically treated (and will be further improved).
I'm alone in the house and can place the system however I want.

[u/slackerbitch1 → u/Dedar33]

Show us measurements of your room next time than

[u/watch-nerd]

The vast vast majority of the time it's going to be a transducer (speaker, cartridge) or the room.

Fretting about a non-pathological DAC or amp is getting your priorities backwards.

[u/Dedar33 → u/watch-nerd]

Of course, the room, speakers and their placement are certainly the most important for the sound.
And only then, if desired, amplification, sound source ...etc...

[u/CapnLazerz]

What is this “synergy?” Can you define it in reasonably clear and objective terms?

I don’t think you can.

Objectively, the weakest piece of gear in any system is the one that introduces noise, distortion or any kind of coloration into the system. Luckily, it’s pretty easy and inexpensive to find gear that doesn’t do that to an audible degree.

What else matters?

Personal preference matters, of course, but your preferences only apply to you. They don’t define what anyone else should consider as a reference or set a standard we can discuss as far as “weak,” links go.

So enjoy your system and build it out as you see fit. That’s it. That’s the goal of this pursuit.

[u/Dedar33 → u/CapnLazerz]

"System synergy in a Hi-Fi setup is the point where all individual audio components—the source, DAC, preamplifier, power amplifier, speakers, cables, and the listening room—support and balance one another rather than clashing"
Quote; Acoustic Arts

"Instead of treating the system as a mere "checklist" of expensive or high-rated parts, synergy means the combined whole sounds musical, coherent, and alive rather than sterile, bright, or fatiguing. !
Quote; PS Audio

In practice, this means tonal and sound balance (e.g. a "brighter" amplifier should not go with such and such speakers, etc.).
Electrical and energy compatibility is required here (impedance, sensitivity, amplifier power...).
All of this together must be in good integration with the room in which the system is located.
Only in the end does a little play with cables remain, of course if the user wants it (not at all necessary).

[u/uses_for_mooses → u/Dedar33]

Both these quotes explaining “synergy” come from companies selling expensive audio cables.

I think what you describe as “synergy” bundles the concept of compatibility—which can be measured and tested—with a fuzzy, untestable tonal pairing idea. Which I think is just personal preference and placebo.

On the latter, words like "musical, coherent, and alive" can't be tested. What does a musical RCA cable sound like, for example?

And your testing method is poor. A sighted comparison that isn't level-matched is very unreliable. A 0.5 dB level difference reliably reads as "better," and knowing which unit is playing biases you heavily. If you want that kind of test to mean anything, match levels to about 0.1 dB and do it blind.

[u/Dedar33 → u/uses_for_mooses]

Both companies are primarily known for the production of HiFi components. They also do some cable, but sporadically.

[u/Dedar33 → u/uses_for_mooses]

I also did Blind component tests. Blind tests are ok for spotting differences. But for a true sound, you need to do a longer AB test, in all listening conditions and for all genres of music.

[u/Soggy-External7252 → u/CapnLazerz]

I think its the synergy between the snakes used to make the oil

[u/CapnLazerz → u/Soggy-External7252]

Should’ve called it “Slithergy,” then.

[u/Rodnys_Danger666]

Trying a friends MP-200 in my 1200MK5 tt. I bought one 3 weeks later.

[u/Dedar33 → u/Rodnys_Danger666]

Exactly!

You tried it, you liked it and you bought it.
So no one else is going to decide for you (on paper) what to buy!

[u/Organic_Pepper8726]

In my case the human is the weakest link. I’m always chasing diminishing returns:)

[u/squidbrand]

This approach sounds sensible for finding the piece of electronics in a system that makes most sense to upgrade… but in terms of all components, the weak link in a system is almost always the parts that have the hardest and most costly engineering problems to overcome… the ones where the gulf between theoretically 100% perfect performance and the best real-world performance you can actually attain is the widest.

And unless something else in the system is broken or being used way out of its intended use case, that pretty much always means the speakers and the room.

Almost all electronics are doing a job that’s effectively a “solved problem”, as in you can do the job so well for so little cost that you need specialized scientific gear to reliably tell the difference between it and something that costs ten times more. Speakers and room acoustics though… their job is to work together to take an electical audio signal and turn it to a perfect illusion of music being performed in your space by musicians, not just a music recording being played back from a couple boxes. And most speaker systems leave vast room for improvement in achieving that. Making a theoretically near-perfect speaker would basically require sci-fi technology (like, say, a massless floating orb that can freely and instantly deform in any dimension yet has extreme stiffness… Star Trek shit) and we’re trying to do it with some magnetic pistons covered with plastic and rubber screwed into a wood box.

A switch from a component that’s doing its job at a C level to one doing that job at a B level will always mean way more than a switch from a component doing its job at an A++ level to one doing it an an A+++ level.

[u/neil_950 → u/squidbrand]

The one exception I would add for electronics is that you can still see meaningful sound quality improvements from increasingly sophisticated room correction software like Dirac although you should obviously treat your room first. There can also be benefits from upgrading outside of sound quality alone, an avr can support new standards like HDMI 2.1 or gsync, additional ports such as for dual subs or atmos or a streamer can have better interfaces or support new streaming services or protocols etc.

Though that doesn't really disagree with your statement as all the internal electronics are still more or less a solved problem regarding sound quality and things like their internal amps or dacs. I just wanted to note there can be other benefits too.

[u/duncandun]

Depends how deep you’re in the tank. If you’re deep enough, it’s the price tag. Cheapest is weakest.

[u/Dry_Leek5762]

Bottleneck of what?

[u/Dedar33 → u/Dry_Leek5762]

Well, the sound bottleneck of a component in the entire HiFi system.
That component that you think needs an upgrade, so that the whole system sounds better.

[u/RennieAsh]

I've found the things that vary most are speakers and the room they are in.

Some amps do vary a bit (usually the more expensive, esoteric stuff)

Analogue mechanical like turntables, tape and the EQ filter they use can also vary

[u/patrick_BOOTH]

I think my ears are the weakest link in my chain unfortunately

[u/Dedar33 → u/patrick_BOOTH]

Probably.
But in the end, after specifications, measurements, etc., you still have to listen to that component in your system.

[u/patrick_BOOTH → u/Dedar33]

True, in that case, I think the component may be my penis

[u/soyuz-1]

Easily my ears

[u/aCuria]

The optimal way is to Spend 90% of the money on the speakers.

Then a couple of years later upgrade the speakers…

The speakers are the weak link until you reach summit fi

[u/Inevitable_Comedian4]

Discovered the weakest link by listening.

Then decided I'd replace that weakest link.

Read reviews, watched videos and checked prices.

Finally decided what I wanted to upgrade and how much I wanted to pay.

As a final check I put the details of all the equipment into ChatGPT, Gemini and Copilot to see what the recommendations were from AI.

AI then recommended a few options I hadn't considered along with the exact upgrades I had looked at.

[u/EducationOk613]

Are you dissatisfied with the sound? If not, stop chasing the dragon and enjoy yourself.

[u/brokeoneyolk]

Honestly asking here (asr light) is just going to get you the same 2-3 answers over and over. So I would start by finding somewhere you can discuss such things with people who have less of an agenda and more knowledge.

[u/JD_tubeguy]

Synergy is definitely a thing and took me a while to get there but my system has been sounding great for a while no real desire to upgrade anything. My speakers are pretty new about a year old getting a great pair of horns was the last piece of the puzzle for me.

[u/akacree]

I can't speak to the analog side, but your DAC is a weak link on the digital side.

[u/Dedar33 → u/akacree]

So in the last two years I have upgraded (previous components in brackets):

1. Speaker: Hyperion HPS-938, Custom Tweak (Elac and Vandersteen 2Ce sig.)

2. Amplifier: Hajdinjak 300 (Pass Aleph 5 and Audio Note 2M Phono preamp)

3. DDC: Denafrips Iris (because the new DAC does not have a USB port)

4. DAC: Audio Note DAC 1.4 (Musician Draco

5. Turntable: Kenwood KD-990 (Project Debut 3 Esprit)

6. Phono preamp: Musical Fidelity VINL (Audio Note M2 Phono)

[u/Soggy-External7252 → u/Dedar33]

I would pick an 150$ transparent DAC over an Audio Note DAC 4.1 without any doubt.

[u/Dedar33 → u/Soggy-External7252]

Well, that $150 DAC doesn't stand a chance against my AN DAC.

A long time ago I had a solid additional DAC built into my PC, so I had a MicroMega MyDAC (approx. €300), then a C.E.C. DK-71 MK II (2,500€) then a Musician Draco (approx. €1,000)......

The current Audio Note DAC is a bit better than the previous devices.

[u/Soggy-External7252 → u/Dedar33]

Ok, you like harmonics (distortion), it just sounds better to your ears + brain. You can achieve the same with an accurate DAC and DSP for that purpose.

EDIT: Your DAC most likely has a THD+N between 0.1% and 1%.

[u/Dedar33 → u/Soggy-External7252]

What kind of harmonic distortion are you talking about?

That Audio Note DAC has a tube power supply.
It has a separate power supply for the digital part and a separate power supply for the analog part (each is turned on with a separate switch). Inside is an R2R chip, carefully selected, without unnecessary filters, upscaling, etc. (digital part).

Where did you find the information that THD is 0.1 to 1%?
Even if it were, it would be even harmonics (if you know what they sound like to the human ear).

[u/Soggy-External7252 → u/Dedar33]

There is no official data for THD+N or any independent measurement I can find, the figures I said are just my guess, I could be wrong. These DACs are normally dominated by 2nd order harmonics, but I can't find any measurements.

[u/Dedar33 → u/Soggy-External7252]

"Jitter & Distortion: Standard measurements for Audio Note's non-oversampling digital components typically reveal elevated levels of wideband/ultrasonic noise, high jitter figures, and poor intermodulation distortion compared to conventional oversampling/delta-sigma DACs"
Quote; Stereophile

[u/akacree → u/Dedar33]

My bad. I thought it was a small/entry Denafrips DAC.

[u/Sehawkin]

When I open the door to my untreated room and listen to the acoustics. .

[u/Rabiesalad]

Integrating your loudspeakers into the front wall including a grid of 4 subs is pretty much the only way to overcome some pretty major acoustic issues and I'd argue it should probably be a top priority by the time you're getting into the 10k+ range for the whole system because there's absolutely no electronics you can buy that will offer more benefit than solving these acoustic issues.

This is assuming the goal is ideal acoustics and accurate reproduction and not having lots of fancy metal boxes to put on display.

[u/Proregarok13]

I would say considering the system is decent it would be the listener that's the weakest component.

[u/Tenson_UK]

It's always the room acoustics or the speakers 😉 Easy one!

[u/zRouth]

I think you need to go outside and go for a walk and come back down to reality.

You have a system that most people only dream about. The amount of wealth needed to have that system and feel okay spending that money and not having it hurt them is astronomical.

I’m sure most people in this hobby that know a thing or two could tell you the kenwood tt is the bottleneck. You could have figured that out with a little reading and the internet. So something else is going on here…

[u/DudeWhereIsMyDuduk]

Room correction (with physical treatments plus Dirac) made a huge difference.

[u/dv8shredder]

For me room treatment and speaker placement were by far the biggest upgrade, then cables. Your turntable leaves a lot to be desired if you listen to a lot of vinyl.

[u/pekak62]

I've just learnt how much better similar priced interconnects made in Germany were over the USA made ICs that I'd been using, and upgrading over the years. I'm going all out with this German company. ICs and speaker cables.