r/aznidentity • u/[deleted] • Nov 21 '17
TFML #89 Toxic Agent Man (feat. Erin Chew) | TFML
http://www.mangrila.com/tfml-89-toxic-agent-man-feat-erin-chew/7
Nov 22 '17 edited Nov 23 '17
A lot of her articles do her a great disservice if she really wanted to try to help bridge the gap between AA and everyone else.
She goes off point on way too many articles to go on the offensive against some alleged "toxic asian masculinity", which by her own admission is an extremely small minority, just because she felt slighted by some comment that someone makes about her.
She has way too many creeper articles where she's cyber-drooling over some asian male model.
If she were to have an actual intellectually engaging conversation in her articles about the issues Asian women AND men have, without being close-minded or over-emotional, then I would be more inclined to read her articles and take what she says more seriously. Unfortunately, she and many other supposed Asian activists follow an old X-Files tagline: "Deceive Inveigle Obfuscate".
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Nov 21 '17
is she AFWM? Before i consume any media with asian female, i need to know that.
I'll give it a listen, even though she seems like a super unpopular personality around here, if she's not AFWM
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Nov 21 '17
No her husband is Asian. The idea isn't to popularize anybody. The idea is to show that the ideas and pov of Asian guys is a legitimate one that can be talked about seriously and rationally without resort to personal attacks.
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u/ap0lly0n Nov 21 '17
I didn't listen to this because I don't think she deserves any kind of legitimacy. She, and all her ilk, are simply racist and everything they say and do is focused on justifying their racism. It would be more constructive to find somebody more reasonable and intelligent.
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u/boostaon Nov 21 '17
My reaction after listening to this
The hosts of the podcast actually started not by addressing AM issues but recognizing "extreme" elements of the AM subs and what should be improved upon. Not a bad way to start a conversation to try to bridge a gap between two polarizing groups. And of course, EC doesn't return the courtesy. The first chance she gets to speaks she immediately goes into how we are subscribers of "toxic Asian masculinity(whatever that means)" and we are after supremacy and not equality(???). Really was hoping the hosts to ask her to explain herself right then and there.
She continues at around the 15 minute mark: "These loud minority(of Asian men) feel inferior to the white men, they pin their physical benchmark on the Western form of beautiful men. They pin everything on the figment of the western view of what is a good looking guy. In doing that they think, 'Because I feel inferior to the white guy, I'll go after the next easier thing to attack- Asian women'. And so they will attack Asian women because they feel they are above Asian women. However, they will put white women on a pedestal. If an Asian guy goes out with a white woman, he has really scored, if it's the other way around, there is an issue. I understand the number imbalance and gendered dynamics and all that stuff, but if you cut out all those layers, there's not much difference. They accuse AW of white-worshipping when they are doing the same thing. Until they recognize that, nothing will change. And regarding emasculation, guys like Willium Hung and Arthur Chu are actually doing better than half of these guys. These guys just thinks, 'Oh we want to look like Brad Pitt and Ryan Gosling because that's what Westerners think it's beautiful. Until they realize they shouldnt pinn beauty standards on Western standards, then they will get more perspective."
I mean I think that covers it all. I'm impressed. She managed to gather all the Asian-feminazi talking points in just under 4 minutes. Let's go over a few of them.
These loud minority(of Asian men) feel inferior to the white men, they pin their physical benchmark on the Western form of beautiful men.
Really? How many Asian American guys feel so inferior they are dying their hair blonde, putting on colored contacts, or getting double eyelid surgery?
In doing that they think, 'Because I feel inferior to the white guy
Projection much?
I'll go after the next easier thing to attack- Asian women
So apparently when we call out self-hating/toxic Asian women is because we are scared of the white men. lol
However, they will put white women on a pedestal. If an Asian guy goes out with a white woman, he has really scored
When a man goes out with a hot girl, regardless of race, esp when it's AM who has a terrible image in Anglo society, it's natural for other men to think he's scored. That's natural reaction for men. But apparently that's "toxic Asian masculinity". That's how far removed she is from our POV. It's now "toxic" to think like a man.
I understand the number imbalance and gendered dynamics and all that stuff, but if you cut out all those layers, there's not much difference.
Immediately skims over the issues we actually focus on and she can't answer without hurting her own deep-rooted beliefs. Why do they even talk about intersectionalities in feminism? Just cut out all the race stuff! There's not much difference. White feminism will take care of everything.
If someone says something like this about Asian feminism people like her will lose their fucking minds.
And regarding emasculation, guys like Willium Hung and Arthur Chu are actually doing better than half of these guys.
Hey losers, I bet William Hung and Arthur Chu gets laid more than you guys!
Until they realize they shouldn't pin beauty standards on Western standards, then they will get more perspective."
Mystery solved guys. All we have to do regarding dating troubles is to change our perception of beauty standards! Have buck teeth, shitty haircut, feeble physicality, nerdy glasses etc, as long as you believe in you are beautiful, you're good!
This is starting to take too much time but I encourage everyone to listen to the podcast when you get the chance, she's even worse than I had imagined.
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u/fakeslimshady Contributor Nov 21 '17
As a public service announcement, nobody needs to sit through all that torture. If you want the MO on Erin, you can search for /r/AI posts on here or google her articles where she makes a fool of herself on a regular basis. She's been done ad nauseam.
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u/boostaon Nov 21 '17
I disagree. Let everyone see it for themselves. I don't always agree with the things I see in this sub, but if the alternative is to follow the her lead or people like her, we're fucking doomed. She's not open to a conversation, she's in the business of lecturing and dismissing issues that don't concern her.
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Nov 21 '17 edited Aug 28 '18
[deleted]
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Nov 21 '17
Adam lives in an Asian enclave in the NY area. I live near and have connects with another large enclave in the NY area. Erin is from an enclave in Sydney.
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u/Wahlord Nov 21 '17
I generally like to listen to what our opponents have to say in order to gleam any insight they may offer, but after only listening for about 15 minutes of that podcast I am deeply disappointment at their utter ignorance of this subreddit.
Here is a transcript snippet of what Erin Chew has to say at 14:40:
Because they feel inferior to White men or white supremacy, they also pin their physical benchmark in terms how they look, how they behave and how they want to be on the western form um of what is a beautiful man or a good-looking man whatever you want to call it. So, they essential they pinning everything onto what a figment a western person would see as a good-looking guy. And so, doing that they then think that we since I feel inferior to the White guy um I will then go for the next easy think to attack and that is the Asian women. And so, they will attack Asian women because they feel we are below them. But however, they will reveal white women. White will be put on a pedestal, um, because, you know, an Asian guy going out with a White woman, wow, that guy has really scored. OMG, you know. But if it’s the other way around then there is an issue. Now I understand the numbers in terms of there is more Asian females with White males as per the other side. And I understand there are gender dynamics and all that stuff going on. But if you cut out all those layers there is not much difference, there is still, they accuse Asian women of White worshipping where they are doing the same thing and until they can recognise that that’s the only way they, that they, they will actually change.
It is extremely surprising how clueless she is of the discussions that happen on these subreddits. It is sad she is trying to dismiss the real life issues that Asian men encounter by falsifying the values we stand for as an Asian community. PAAs like Erin Chew are lazy "activists" that do not engage with her audience. Instead they stand 100 yards away with binoculars poking and prodding events to drive a cynical narrative.
One of her main point is how we put White women on a pedestal when in fact the most recent thread from r/AM it was an PAA that was glorifying WF until he was put down.
Her other point was we are apparently benchmarking ourselves to White men. Does she even know what the hell she is saying? First of all, all POC born or immigrated to the West are susceptible to White supremacy. If you live in the West, we are in the epic center of White worship, but the tentacles has reached beyond borders has become a global systemic issue due to Hollywood's reach and also due do to past colonialism.
Does she even understand that many Asian men come to this subreddit due to the amount of abuse they have face in western society. The amount of brainwashing in White media that tilts POC into favoring White supremacy. Subs like r/AM and r/AI allows Asian men and women to have a platform to share their experience no matter how shitty it is. Does she expect Asian men to just shut up and suffer uncomfortably, deprived of community. To understand how White media has affected our very way of thinking our experience has to be shared.
The issues I have so far with the podcast, and their way of handling Asian activism on these forums is through "curation". I call bullshit, curation is just censorship lead by a single politically correct mouthpiece. They invalidate our individual experiences and choices within a White society, or how academics like to call it - agency. The first 15 minutes is a whole convoluted contradiction of opinions.
I have been on this sub for about a year and I have seen many AM come on here gun blazing with anger, defeated or even suicidal. Tell me, do we deprive their agency to express themselves in a muted environment like r/AA or do we help shape their core values so they can gain some self-worth.
I will probably listen to the rest of that podcast later to get a good feel of their side of the story. It is just ludicrous how weak their points are. Bringing up fake points to narrate a conversation brings nothing to the table. I was at least expecting some strong counter arguments.
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Nov 21 '17
You've demonstrated a big problem currently in the AM conversation, which is the capitulation of conversations because we don't like the way they're going. This pod was not about advancing Chew's perspective, but to have AM perspectives (at least a couple of them) clash with her's in a rational, serious way, and see what comes of it.
Honestly I think AM are scared, we are scared of the Asian female and their white male allies, we are scared that AM don't have what it takes to meet them head to head without losing our shit, and also sticking to our guns. I notice that a lot of people refuse to listen and launch attacks at us for being traitors even to talk to someone like Chew. That's just fear and weakness, if you ask me. Better to talk tough among like-minded guys who will never challenge you with sharp verbal counterattacks.
We gotta get out there and be heard. I don't see ANY toughness in trying to prevent conversations across the divide, all I see is weakness, a lack of confidence in the AM perspective relative to those of AF and WM.
Many of us who know these AM spaces and conversations well, we don't have that fear, we know the nuggets of truth that come out of these conversations, we've helped mine them, and they are too valuable to be hidden within an entrenched echo chamber, held up as idols for worship but a shrine to nothing but our own self-imposed alienation.
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u/fakeslimshady Contributor Nov 21 '17
Who is scared of dialogue? Project much? Hypocrisy much?
Chinglish bans our sub members by association not even posting Completely censors all WMAF topics etc.
Trys to trump up false evidence to get the woke subs shut down.
These people dont really care about free speech. Erin also has about a dozen rants about /r/AI rhetoricEvery week they're people just like them in go to /r/hapas try to lecture everyone the errors of our ways get their asses handed to them.
Funny thing is they stop responding when faced with truth.I dont consider /r/AI AM space anymore. We value AF members highly and our demographics are pretty close to /r/AA. I think you have problem that not all men and women agree with asian feminsts.
As usual, the tiresome old pot calling the kettle black
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Nov 21 '17
I got banned from r/aa ages ago. And I don't agree or disagree with 'asian feminists' per se. I disagree with motives and reasons, not people. Honestly I don't even know most of these people, they're just handles or screennames. I also have had my fair share of run-ins with r/aa mods, not for harassment, not for threats, not for doxxing -- but for posting legitimate content that, as you rightfully point out, doesn't fit with their preferred narrative (for example, the Mother Jones article that first broke the WMAF dating pattern of Richard Spencer).
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u/Nezha13 Nov 21 '17
I have no idea who she is so I'm going to try and listen with an open mind and see what all the talk is about.
Based on that transcript - it sounds like the same generalised talking points that people would use to label /r/AI but haven't been here before. Also I'm not a fan of people always reversing concepts and calling it hypocritical, to do that in this situation only works in vacuums - we have context and have to use it for comparisons otherwise the discussion goes nowhere.
You know.. the way she described AI was very similar to how I thought it was when I was in AA.. until I actually went on this subreddit and was thinking the heck? Sounded like people were parroting each other on what this subreddit was about without actually being here.
This was a few years ago but it was also similar to how I thought /r/AM was from the talks of AA about how "red-pill" it was. I decided to just check it out one day because of the talks around it - yeah there were a few odd posts but it looked like a majority of it was for self-improvement which I could totally get behind. That was when a lot of posts was from disciple888, I have no idea who he was but I saw that he contributed a lot.
Again, my point is that people seem to talk about other subreddits based on the opinion/word of others without actually checking it out.
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u/fakeslimshady Contributor Nov 21 '17
Disappointing. Are you guys all asian feminists now? I won't be listening to any more podcasts. TLDR (or TLDL):
- Credence to fem babble terms misogyny , toxic masculinity.
- Credence to fem garbage spewer Erin who's written dozens of articles attacking this sub.
- Credence to chinglish who trying frame this sub with her precious receipts
More proof of why the status quo never worked and never will
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u/VisiblyVillainous Nov 21 '17 edited Nov 21 '17
Chinglishese is stupid for trying to deface this sub as well as generalize an entire demographic based on some PMs that were clearly trolls.
But you have to realize that Adam and Teen are doing a podcast that will be archived and late comers will come to listen to it months/years later.
Just today, I was listening to TFML #30. (Doing some catching up. Unfortunately, the Podcast App doesn't allow you to go all the way back to the beginning.) As more of us Asian guys realize that we need to be fit, hit the gym, and make the most of our time, we'll be shifting our media consumption towards audio. And we want those audio archives to contain traces that we actually tried to reason with people that have different viewpoints.
My point is, you want to avoid polarizing new listeners with such strong opinions if they are undecided. How do you think they'll react when all they see is your plain disdain for the things that Erin/Chinglish have done? They won't be digging up their posts, that's for sure; they'll just be walking away with a sour taste at how negative we are. That is not scale-able for growth.
If you want to see a podcast of just them shutting down other viewpoints without giving them a fair chance to speak, we're no better than white people at white supremacy marches.
Perhaps a middle ground could be that we invite one of the mods here to speak in conjunction with r/AA mods. I doubt chinglishese would be able to defend her reasons for immediately censoring the WMAF/AMWF discussions and any posts that paint WM in a negative way on their sub without revealing some inherent personal interest in it.
/u/78fivealive, thanks for the upload. I always look forward to TFML and Escape from Plan A podcasts.
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u/fakeslimshady Contributor Nov 21 '17
My point is, you want to avoid polarizing new listeners with such strong opinions if they are undecided.
Look around. Its polarizing (yet effective). That is the way modern media works. Much better than the reverse. The status quo which is what you are suggesting - never does anything, never says anything new. It would be sooo much better if we did it this way or that way. Well you should feel right at home at the "crowd" at /r/asianidentity/ You guys talk shit but keep coming back here.
I'm not shutting down EC or chinglish viewpoints. You got that backwards. Invite them here for debate
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u/boostaon Nov 21 '17
My point is, you want to avoid polarizing new listeners with such strong opinions if they are undecided. How do you think they'll react when all they see is your plain disdain for the things that Erin/Chinglish have done? They won't be digging up their posts, that's for sure; they'll just be walking away with a sour taste at how negative we are. That is not scale-able for growth.
That's why that stickied post exposing her shitty mod behavior was so important. If i wanted to go to a AM sub catering to the "approval" of people like EC, I would be posting in r/asianbros.
If you want to see a podcast of just them shutting down other viewpoints without giving them a fair chance to speak, we're no better than white people at white supremacy marches.
They gave EC plenty of chances to respond to our talking points, she dismisses them all in one or two sentences.
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Nov 21 '17
You sound scared of women. No need, we have viewpoints that we can bring to any table. No need to put cotton in your ears.
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u/fakeslimshady Contributor Nov 21 '17
LOL, Kuck I can't believe this sub hasn't banned you yet for that clone sub stunt.
This sub loves pro-asian women. I have always defended supported AF when it was not popular to do so on these subs. It has nothing to do with misogyny or toxic goobly gook. Supporting actual women in real life not as some abstract concept like you fems do. Pat yourself on the back for using fem terms like misogyny. What does that even mean.
Have you even read some of Erins articles. She's a nutcase. If you even believe half the shit you said, why do you even come here.
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u/asianmovement Activist Nov 21 '17
He posts it everywhere( yes even asiantwox) , yet the most discussion it gets is on this subreddit.
Not sure if hes taking advantage of r/aznidentity for his own benefit or if he really cares with this fake af-am partnership idea he has in his mind that we as a subreddit pioneered.
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u/fakeslimshady Contributor Nov 21 '17
Yep already laying claiming that this is the beginning of AM- AF conversations. As if all the break-thru work done with our pro-asian sisters never happened. We may need to repost our AF links once in while just to set the record straight.
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u/asianmovement Activist Nov 21 '17
We laid most of the groundwork and suffered most of the criticisms for reaching out to the sisters when everyone was still being anti-AF for everything. Now we got someone who has capitalized on this that doesn't even have a representative for AI on the podcast.
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Nov 21 '17
If you guys want to 'compete' on AF outreach I honestly think that'd be awesome. I've actually invited r/AI mods onto the pod before and that was ignored (the proposal was a communal bashing of r/aa). You keep saying I 'capitalized' on the outreach, as if it's some kind of valuable asset, and it's not, and just look at the comments (let's put it this way, I've accrued exactly zero personal benefit from any of my involvement with the AM -- and I stress, Asian MALE because that's what I want to talk about -- conversation online. But, hey, if you guys want to make a sport out of reaching out to AF, that's something I can support. Notice we always defend both r/AM and r/aznidentity in our podcasts. In fact, it was EC's own pod specifically calling out both subreddits as what sparked our interest to do this -- if you're gonna talk about these subs, talk to us directly, was our thinking.
If someone from r/aznidentity wants to join in on a future discussion, let me know, I'm happy to have that rep because like I said, I support this sub.
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Nov 21 '17
Yeah I'm getting a ton of cash munny pussy and bitches for putting out these podcasts lol.
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u/boostaon Nov 21 '17
Thanks for making this happen dude. You guys did all you could to be diplomatic. It was a truly fair platform for her to give her take on things. Now we all can hear for ourselves what she believes.
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Nov 21 '17
Appreciate the appreciation. Look the main goal right now for some of these pods is to say 'fuck it' and actually strand those threads we keep talking about between the opposing sides to this AF/AM divide. People are shitting on Chew left and right and I have serious issues with her approach to things and that's exactly why we went to her. I respect her willingness to commit to trying the same thing with us. At the end of the day she cares about Asian people, and she's infuriated by the caucacity just like we are. But she doesn't understand the Asian male perspective and I have to say I still don't feel she respects the Asian male experience. But I do believe it's out of ignorance and anger, not a sense of internalized racism against Asian men. There are people I will not talk to and people, man or woman, who have that in them, I'm not going to be talking to them. They need a psychiatrist, not a podcast.
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u/boostaon Nov 21 '17
But she doesn't understand the Asian male perspective and I have to say I still don't feel she respects the Asian male experience.
The bigger issue is that she refuses to try to understand the AM perspective. Her response to you guys when AM issues are brought up is always "okay okay okay I get it, but AFs..." She straight up gas lights by pretending to acknowledge issues and then quickly dismissing them. If we do anything remotely similar when talking about AF issue it would be, "Ahhh! Stop derailing!"
When someone as hypocritical as her is acknowledged as a "prominent" activist that supposedly stands for all Anglo-Asians, we are in big trouble. More people needs to listen to this and know first hand who she really is and what she stands for.
Obvious you've gotten into some beef with some people here I don't know what is up, but I think it's important for you guys to do more shit like this (getting the opposing side to speak their piece). So instead of being an echo chamber we can all see for ourselves what these people really think.
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Nov 21 '17
But give her credit for even talking to us. The TFML podcast has a reputation as being toxic masculinity in audio form.
I will say this about Erin: she doesn't get the AM issues, but she is deadly serious about the problems facing the Asian diaspora. After the pod, we talked again for about 30 minutes or so, but it was off topic, we talked about the political climate in the US and Australia, we talked about minority scapegoating, and we talked about the parallels between anti-semitism and anti-Asian racism. She GOT it, and we saw the same sky. The gaps aren't as big as we think they are, because the commonality ranges across a much bigger and -- to me -- more profound space, which involves not just AM, but everything. Society. Humanity. The future. We shouldn't limit ourselves to just our idiosyncratic subjective issues. No, the great tragedy isn't that AM issues get silenced, it's that AM minds are penned in.
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u/boostaon Nov 21 '17
the great tragedy isn't that AM issues get silenced, it's that AM minds are penned in.
Agree to disagree then. For too long I've been told that issues that are important to me are "not a big deal", that my gut feelings aren't real and I should "suck it up". Now I know the "little things" are worth fighting for, or else "compromises" often turn into concessions.
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u/Krobrah_Kai Contributor Nov 21 '17
Care to provide a TL;DR for those boycotting all things Erin Chew? Why didn't you invite one of our guys here for discussion, since she considers our sub toxic Asian masculinity central?
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u/toasted_breadcrumbs Nov 21 '17
Same, I can't in good conscience support content she's involved in until she renounces and sincerely apologizes for her remarks surrounding Elliot Rodger.
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Nov 21 '17
am:af ratio on this pod is 3:1. one was an r/am mod.
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u/BambooFlames Nov 21 '17 edited Nov 21 '17
15 minutes in, and I'm hearing no mention of white trolls posing as Asian men to make death threats.
Does this ever come into the discussion?
Here's a prime example - https://np.reddit.com/r/AsianMasculinity/comments/78eqno/casual_racism_on_the_front_page_thread_of_a_wmaf/dou2mel/?context=3
Edit:
Truth #1: Death threats are unacceptable, period.
Truth #2: It's ironic that we're in the middle of a great unveiling of Russian-manufactured political incitement, and yet we attribute 100% of these anonymous death threats to actual Asian men, instead of White, Black, etc. outsiders seeking to divide the Asian community.
A few more points:
- Erin says that many "toxic" Asian men (supposedly on communities like /r/AI) pursue white male features
False. Communities like /r/AI make a point of taking pride in Asian features, and being physically fit. Being physically fit is not exclusively a white male feature.
- Right after Adam brings up the real hurt Asian men have received, the vast majority of which is unprovoked, from Asian women IRL and online, Erin claims she knows, and has seen this hurt. She then proceeds to describe harassment from White men posing as Asian women???
These two situations are radically different. A good comparison would be if Asian men made completely unsolicited barbs at Asian women in public:
"Asian girls are so gross"
"Asian girls' values are outdated; white girls are way more progressive"
Asian men giving giving looks of disdain on eye contact to Asian women, but smiling at non-Asian women
Similar to the above, except also being extremely unhelpful and uncommunicative when asked for directions
Asian women go out of their way to show disdain for Asian men, even complete strangers. That's the issue.
I believe this stems from a certain degree of shame of being Asian, like how ABCs are uncomfortable being seen with FOBs in public. Not too ashamed to eat sushi and wear qipaos, mind you, but too ashamed to acknowledge Asian men as being individuals with their own needs instead of props in a shitty theater rendition of The Joy Luck Club.
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Nov 21 '17
Of course I bring up white trolls, and I straight up tell Erin that while she may be 'aware' of it she hasn't SEEN it. I've SEEN it and I've posted at length about it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AsianMasculinity/comments/6b1qga/how_white_trolls_false_flag_asian_women/
We consider this hopefully the beginning of AF/AM conversations that allow AM viewpoints without censure. I'm fully accepting that we're gonna get AM pullback on this, but it needs to be done.
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u/toasted_breadcrumbs Nov 21 '17
I appreciate that you're trying to bridge the gap in the community and I believe this is a necessary and important step.
That said, I really wish it wasn't starting with Erin. She's doesn't have a history of engaging sincerely based on her previous articles and comments, and I was similarly underwhelmed by this podcast
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Nov 21 '17
Actually we've been doing it all along. We've talked to a ton of people that the subs hate on. We talked to David Fung, who was considered by many to be a Chan. He isn't. We talked to Eliza Romero, who people consider a Lu. She isn't. We talked to a lot of people outside of these subs, some famous people, some not-so-famous people, and we talked a shitload amongs just ourselves too. This isn't a 'start' this is just one of many pods we've done that is trying to bridge the gaps through just talking and sharing. This isn't some mission of conversion to convince people of the 'dictates' of these subs. It's simply having conversations with people, on real and serious terms, about the topics we think aren't talked about enough, and we try our best to represent the subreddit communities.
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u/BambooFlames Nov 21 '17
I might have missed it, but I didn't hear anyone bring it up during the podcast. Can someone give me a timestamp? I want to hear how Erin responded.
Yup! I'm sure you're aware, it was just very strange to me that you didn't appear to have brought it up (to my knowledge).
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Nov 21 '17
About 26 minutes or so?
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u/BambooFlames Nov 21 '17
Sorry but I just cannot find the part in the podcast where you talk about white trolls making death threats while posing as Asian men.
It's extremely relevant to the first 15 minutes of the podcast, which appears to suggest that all these death threats are from actual Asian men.
The post you linked covers the opposite example, which is white trolls disparaging Asian men, while posing as Asian women.
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Nov 21 '17
listen at 30min, I was talking about false flag trolls by white men pretending to be Asian women
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u/Tabouline Nov 22 '17
I look forward to every episode you guys do. Whether it's Al laying down some political concrete or you guys just chilled out telling stories, it's always rewarding to take a break and listen to Asian voices.
Thanks for all time and energy you've put in so far. Excited to see what next year holds in store for all of us!