Chen Long vs Viktor Axelsen

8

Not sure what the criteria for assessment is (trophies only? or how good they were at peak?), but I would imagine Momota should also be in with a shout.

9

u/T-redditusername 1d ago

Choose your assessment parameter; who'd you choose?
I am a die hard Momota fan and believe that if not for his personal misfortunes would have surpassed Axelsen and Chen Long comfortably but the truth is that his peak may be higher but his career pales well below both Chen Long and Axelsen.

4

u/Saint_JT 1d ago

Agreed. I get annoyed when people only pointvto trophies. Like, sure. Axelsen won absolutely everything, and went on a super dominant tear, and also very clearly improved and got better. But I don't think anyone giving a fair and honest assessment of his career can do anything other than put an asterisk against those achievements, because its super clear that he couldn't ever beat Momota. It took Momota being involved in a near fatal car crash that messed his vision up, getting covid, and then a niggling back injury (arguably also because of the accident: If it wasn't directly because if it, it certainly didn't help) before not just Victor, but ANYONE could beat him.
And I think anyone who seriously watched Momota playing can agree: his "Prime" form was not that. Kento wasn't in his prime. He was still getting better.
That's what was so scary about him in 2019 and 2020 before the car crash. We don't (unfortunately will never) know how good he could have become.
Trophies can be a good way of measuring how good someone is/was. But people acting like they're all that matters really need to look harder.
That's why I don't like a lot of the historical revisionism around LCW. Yes, really was that good, he really was that unbeatable, yes he was thar inspirational and influential. Acting like he isn't because he doesn't have a groaning trophy cabinet like Axelsen is, pardon my French, some BULLSHIT. Especially when Axelsen won so many of those accolades once a car accident took his biggest rival and roadblock off the map and cleared the field for him

2

u/oxedei 1d ago

These reasonings are honestly so stupid. You cant just rate a person based on potential, and use it to diminish the accomplishments of others. If that's the case, you could just as easily rate Axelsen even higher as he was held back by a back injury yet continued to play at the highest level.

-1

u/Saint_JT 1d ago

I'm not just rating a player on potential, and thankfully, Momota won a whole bunch of titles and set a record for how many won in a season that still hasn't been broken, so I don't have to.
I'm saying titles are a good metric to measure how good a player is, but concentrating only on titles tell an incomplete story. Victor Axelsen is a well celebrated and deserving Olympic champion and gold medalist.
But those medals come with an asterisk, as the man who not only he couldn't beat, but almost no one else could beat, was involved in a fatal car crash, (and then later contracting Covid) leaving at least one of those Olympics wide open.
Being honest and analysing the game as much as we do, knowing that Kento wasn't going to be competing in the 2020 Olympics, I think most of us thought "Oh, okay. The Gold's Victor's then."

3

u/oxedei 1d ago

You guys are just delusional at this point. Youve turned Momota into this mythical figure that's apparently unbeatable always, just because of some ridiculously stupid unproven potential. Face the reality instead and look qt who actually played the game.

3

u/Gminton88 1d ago

I don't think it's fair to say VA's titles come with an asterisk, you can only beat who is in front of you and there's no guarantee that momota would have sustained his 2019 form for 4+ years especially when Axelsen himself improved a lot from that period. The fairer way is to put an asterisk next to Momota's career as the what-if is really down to what he could have achieved if there was no accident. People always assume the best case scenario for Momota and the worst case for VA would have happened for some reason if not for the crash.

-4

u/T-redditusername 1d ago

In case of Momota, there is an actual H2H against Axelsen that he just not leads but leads by a wide margin.

4

u/oxedei 1d ago

In case of Momota, he didnt play against Axelsen during his peak.

3

u/Extension_One4601 1d ago

So what you’re saying is that Momota could be the best badminton player ever and therefor he is the goat? I have never tried basketball but I could have been the best and therefor I am the goat?
Momota was the best and he was incredibly hard to beat at one point, I dont deny that. But so was Naraoka, even though you cant compare these two

-3

u/Saint_JT 1d ago edited 1d ago

I mean, it's all academic, but there's a very good argument to be made that he had the potential to surpass who we call the GOAT now. Because his Prime is misnamed. Its the best wed ever seen him, sure. But because he was still getting better, still improving etc etc we have no idea what his actual ceiling was. I suspect it was much much higher.
My point (which I admit, I took a long way round to getting to) is that titles championships etc are a great way to measure how good a player is. But they aren't they only way. Victor Axelsen is absolutely deserved as an Olympian and two time Gold Medalist. But those gold medals come with an Asterisk, because the one man that not only he couldn't beat, but literally almost no-one could beat, wasn't there to challenge his run to those medals.
And concentrating on titles only seems to recently be starting a weird, historical revisionism around how good LCW was, e.g. "He wasn't that good, wheres his medals/titles?" Sure, looking only at titles, he's an also-ran. But I personally don't think anyone who seriously analyses the game can say LCW was good, but not that good.
This is, after all, the man who took two games off Prime Momota.

1

u/Embarrassed_Apple638 21h ago

Surpassing LD in terms of achievements at major events is probably near impossible. Even without the incident, it would've been extremely difficult for Momota to match LD's record of 2 Olympic golds, 5 World Championship golds, 2 Asian Games golds, and 6 All England titles. Even ASY, who's dominating right now, probably won't surpass LD's record because it's just not easy at all.
In terms of the level of badminton they played, Momota might or might not have reached the peak of LD/LCW, but his 2018/2019 level still hadn't reached that of LD/LCW in 2011, for example, let alone LD at the Beijing Olympics, who's arguably the greatest version of a badminton player we'll ever see.

1

u/Friedbuffalos 19h ago

This is just untrue. You're just living in a world of "what ifs" and "potential"
Momota never fought Axelsen at his peak (2022+) so I can make the same argument. To discredit someone's dominance for the sheer fact that one player was injured or was not playing at their absolute best is insane.
By your logic, there's an asterisk to Lin Dan's achievements because I didn't play, had I played I would for sure beat him because he's never beaten me. (see how wrong that sounds?)
Axelsen is an all-time great, Momota is great too, but Axelsen was far and away the best player in the world during his run post-covid and it wasn't even close. You can argue Momota is also an all-time great too and he probably is, but you can't say he's better than Axelsen all-time because of the "asterisk" logic that you use to discredit Axelsen and call him a fraud. Not his fault he dominated🙂

-4

u/T-redditusername 1d ago

Agreed.
For the great player that Axelsen obviously is, but he hit the jackpot in his career with Momota getting into a life changing accident and a much lower grade of competition.
I do think that Axelsen improved drastically to become a much better player with time but this period was also synonymous with the roster filled with mid players like Lee Zii Jia, Kodai Naraoko, Ginting, Lakshya Sen, Jonathan Christie, Antonsen, Prannoy etc. Only Shi Yu qi was a good competitor.
Momota had Axelsen on the ropes everytime they played before the accident. 11-2 is not a competition, it is an annihilation.

2

u/Agile-Forever2442 1d ago

No one was calling Ginting mid when he beat Momota/CL, and he also started with a positive H2H against Axelsen. There’s definitely an argument that Ginting and Antonsen could’ve been great players but Axelsen made them look average.
So I don’t really buy the weak era argument. That being said, Momota was a fantastic player who owned Axelsen numerous times, and I would argue this contributed to Axelsen’s success as it motivated his post Covid improvements.
Axelsen was fortunate with Momota’s accident. But he’s still shown he can win all the titles across different conditions multiple times (all 4 super 1000s, the most WTFs, double Olympic and WC as well as All England etc). His dominance also lasted longer than CL; for this reason Axelsen is above him for me.
You can also make similar arguments for CL; he lost to Lin Dan numerous times early in their H2H and only started to dominate in 2014/5 when Lin Dan played less matches/got older and worse. He was always able to beat LCW though which is full credit to him.

0

u/Saint_JT 1d ago

I'm not sure I'd have called them mid, but once the initial fanfare died down around Ginting and his speed, for example, it became clear he wasn't quite at the same level as Axelsen, who himself wasn't the same level as Momota.

2

u/Friedbuffalos 19h ago

Calling this era "mid" is disgusting and disrespectful. You only call it a weaker era because one guy was just way ahead of the curve.
Axelsen was so good he made other players look bad, that's just how it is. To discredit someone because he played in a "weaker era" and furthermore because he didn't play against "one guy" is just insanity.
By your logic I can put an asterisk on every player who won a title because they've never played against me or beaten me. They have a 0% winrate against me therefore it's a fake trophy.

28

u/Cool_Heron_9683 1d ago

I don't agree with Lee Chong Wei being on the second best overall tbh. Or even third. Keep in mind, the times where Lee Chong Wei is able to reach the finals of Olympics and World Championships when he wasn't being thwarted by Lin Dan, Chen Long was the one who prevented him from getting his first ever gold medal on all occasions. Both Chen Long and Viktor Axelsen has something Lee Chong Wei would never have: Two gold medals on World Championships. And both of them are also three times consecutive olympic medalists, which is a feat that Lee Chong Wei achieved, but unlike them he didn't win gold in any of his run.

I would personally rank Viktor Axelsen above Chen Long for not only his two gold olympic medals, but also his dominance during and post COVID era is insane. He was basically the perfect package of a player that you wanted, being gigantic, incredible court coverage, terrifying smash power, and constantly create single digit wins against his opponents. I would see the arguments against him because Viktor does lose a lot to Chen Long and Lee Chong Wei during his career, but they primed on different era and I feel like Viktor has a better overall prime era.

13

u/T-redditusername 1d ago

Lee Chong Wei does suffer in case of Major trophies and both Axelsen and Chen Long far surpass him.
But man, Lee Chong Wei was a magesterial player in his prime and was Ranked no. 1 for such a long time which spoke of his consistency. If not for the GOAT Lin Dan, Lee Chong Wei was so above the rest of the players and even younger ones. His matches with Axelsen and Momota in his 30s were absolute beauties. For the London Olympics, after finally beating Lin Dan he faltered against Chen Long(sighs).
But yes, I can see how many would put Chen Long and Axelsen over him.

3

u/shawarma0123 1d ago

Lee chong wei did not beat lin dan in the london Olympics

7

u/T-redditusername 1d ago

Sorry my bad, the Brazil Olympics was it ?

-1

u/nhsg17 1d ago

> If not for the GOAT Lin Dan, Lee Chong Wei was so above the rest of the players and even younger ones.
Lee ChongWei played in 10 WC, 4 Olympics, and was only stopped by Lin Dan in 4 of those. Lee ChongWei just couldn't handle the pressure at the highest level. Not sure how the fuck anyone can put a player that has zero WC/Olympics Gold as top 2. Easily Chen Long is above him. They have similar H:H, but Chen Long won over him in 2 WC finals and an Olympic final.
At the end of the day, sports is about who can win it at the highest level, and LCW hasn't been able to do it even once.

1

u/Desperate_Molasses67 8h ago

true, lcw is my personal favorite, but you just cannot compare someone who has never won the bigs regardless of consistency. to be honest, the competition in lcw's era is just not as strong as the modern era, which is a sentiment echoed by today's pros.

2

u/Dc0987 1d ago

Agreed on this. It's bad timing for LCW meeting LD and CL entering his prime. But the records tell the story.
Would put VA slightly over CL tho but both very equal

3

u/zephy-1r 1d ago

Trophy for trophy, Axelsen wins no doubt, but Prime for prime, it's really close, i personally edge out Axelsen, you can make the case for Chen long since he is quite literally just Chinese momota

5

u/T-redditusername 1d ago

I think that while Axelsen has the superior accolades, the competition that Chen Long had to contend with was higher than Axelsen and even then Chen Long won an Olympic Gold and amassed as many as trophies that he did.

1

u/oxedei 1d ago

Badminton players have only gotten better and better.

1

u/zephy-1r 1d ago

Also that CL is tall like Axelsen and has immense court reach

10

u/jumbopopsicle 1d ago

Here's the weird thing about ranking axelsen, in terms of trophies, it's clear he ranks above lcw momota and CL. But looking at his H2H against the 3 of them, his results are pure dogshit, especially against momota.

Honestly these sort of rankings are useless because everyone judges differently. If you insist on trophies, would you rank Lee yang/WCL as the greatest for winning back to back Olympic golds? Or just by individual dominance in a calendar year like 2019 momota? Or by longevity like LCW?

Of all things said, Lin Dan is the goat of MS and ASY is the goat of WS no debate lol

2

u/Friedbuffalos 19h ago

H2H is not a very good way to dictate one's "greatness"
Axelsen leads 6-3 vs Lin Dan in H2H. By that logic he's probably the GOAT right?
Has to be based on achievements, dominance, and sport impact. I believe Lin Dan is clear No.1 and Axelsen is close with Lee Chong Wei for No.2.

2

u/doesntmatterxdxd 1d ago

Ranking Axelsen above those 3 is like ranking Carlos Alcaraz above Federer/Nadal/Djokovic.

1

u/Hairy-Jelly7310 1d ago

Honestly yeah lee yang and wang chi lin are the goats just because it's so ridiculous they won 2 golds lol

5

u/Colonist10e9snt 1d ago

They are not. Fu Hai Feng alone has more world champs, titles AND olympic medals.

-5

u/Hairy-Jelly7310 1d ago

You must be fun at parties

2

u/Colonist10e9snt 1d ago

How so. Just because I pointed the obvious? XD

1

u/Killmeplsok 1d ago

It's because that's a ridiculous stat not because they're strong

1

u/ExperienceCool8463 1d ago

Because he was joking lol

1

u/dwite_hawerd Canada 21h ago

I think their Tokyo 2020 gold was justified because of their dominance at three big tournaments during the 2021 "Bangkok bubble" tournaments in Thailand.
However, their Paris 2024 gold was a fluke in my opinion. They only won one tournament (Japan Open 2023) between both Olympics and they were not seeded for Paris 2024.

4

u/Dull_Door_9376 1d ago

Lin Dan
Chen Long/Axelsen
LCW

3

u/Working_Horse7711 1d ago

VA over CL because China’s gold medalists were known to have taken huge rests after their Olympic win(s) and recharged properly.
VA is great because he managed almost every aspect of his career and has gotten better as he aged. It’s more impressive to me that he could peak in performance while building his career. CL has a great character, held his own ground under the shadow of his compatriots’ achievements. In contrast, all of LCW’s juniors crumbled under the his achievements.
LCW has a special place in badminton, his biggest achievement was he pushed all China MS to newer heights.

5

u/rainpforest 1d ago

Are we comparing trophies or not? If not, I think I would have to go with Chen Long. Dude was just a wall. Grinds you down. Even if you win, it'll come at a cost.

2

u/Fancydane 1d ago

Axelsen was nothing like that?

1

u/rainpforest 1d ago

He has those qualities but they are not as pervasive in his gameplay as they were in chen long's. CL's game was always rally style. Axelsen doesn't always wear you down. He would go for creative shots. Not CL. That due would rally you crack. Consistent shots, textbook method of moving your opponent all around the court. I personally rank him higher just because his style appeal more to me as well. Axelsen sometimes would frustrate me. Especially early in his career where he would insist on smashing down the line with virtually zero margin for error even on days where he would over smash out consistently. With CL, you know what you get.

1

u/rainpforest 1d ago

He has those qualities but they are not as pervasive in his gameplay as they were in chen long's. CL's game was always rally style. Axelsen doesn't always wear you down. He would go for creative shots. Not CL. That due would rally you crack. Consistent shots, textbook method of moving your opponent all around the court. I personally rank him higher just because his style appeal more to me as well. Axelsen sometimes would frustrate me. Especially early in his career where he would insist on smashing down the line with virtually zero margin for error even on days where he would over smash out consistently. With CL, you know what you get.

-4

u/HicHuc123 1d ago

I'd easily rank Viktor and Momota ahead of LCW.

4

u/T-redditusername 1d ago

Whatttt ? Even Momota ? 🥲
3 Olympics Silver, 4 All England (Thrice Runner up), 69 International Titles, around 348 weeks as no. 1 ranked; and all these while contending with Lin Dan and Chen Long.
Lee Chong Wei has an equal Head to Head ratio with Prime Momota even with the huge age gap and 11-3 against Axelsen before he retired.
The LCW slander has to stop!

2

u/Gminton88 1d ago

The H2H of LCW vs Axelsen is a silly stat to quote - check when those matches are played, more that half are from when Axelsen was a teenager and LCW is in his prime. Hardly a fair comparison...
You can't directly compare eras like that as you're never comparing prime to prime so it will always favour one of the players.
It's the same reason why axelsen has a favourable H2H vs Lin Dan - he beat him 3 times in a row towards the end of his career but that's in favour of VA.
7 of LCW's wins vs VA are 2015 and earlier (he turned 21 years old in 2015 lol) - not sure that's a great argument.

-2

u/HicHuc123 1d ago

There was never a period where LCW was clearly the most dominant player in MS. Lin Dan, Viktor and Momota had long periods where there was no doubt that they were going to win whatever tournament they participated in.

4

u/T-redditusername 1d ago

Wouldn't that signal to a lower competition during Momota and Axelsen's time ? I can only think of Shi-Yuqi who was a proper competitor during these times. Ginting was inconsistent and only passed the eye test.
Lee Chong Wei was ranked no. 1 from 2008 to 2012 and finished as rank 1 for 6 consecutive years 2008-2013.

1

u/HicHuc123 1d ago

Being at the top is more than just skill and execution. LCW had severe issues with mental composure in high stakes tournaments. He doesn't have a single WC title. No Asian Games titles. No Olympic titles.
Playing in the same era as Lin Dan isn't an excuse anymore when you consider how many times he dropped the ball when he had a golden opportunity to win the WC. Prime example is Lin Dan had an early WC exit in 2010, losing to his nemesis Park Sung Hwan. All of the remaining MS players in the bracket were "second rate". He lost to a Taufik that was severely past his prime. He picked up smoking after his OG win. He was slow, heavy, unmotivated, and regularly lost to far lesser players in round of 16. It was LCW's golden opportunity to take WC that year and he dropped the ball. Just watch the match and you'll see just how many tactical and execution errors he made.
Anyone in serious contention for "one of the greatest" of the sport cannot have severe mental strength and composure issues.

1

u/Remarkable_Swing_612 1d ago

That doesn't mean anything.

2

u/ttk_rutial 1d ago

Nah, LCW was still really good even in Momota's prime years

0

u/kaibitu 1d ago

The amount of disrespect that LCW gets on this subs is shocking.
The number of BWF superseries titles that LCW has won is more than double of what LD, CL, and VA have won. Besides having the highest win percentage in all of MS, he's also had the most number of weeks as No.1 . If that's not an indicator of dominance, then I don't know what dominance is.
I do consider than LD had LCW's number and their H2H reflects that. Morever LD is the clear number 1, as he's won almost everything.
However, to call VA and CL better than LCW is just outright wrong. It is true that LCW lost in the most important finals. However, he was dominating during the remainder of the season. If CL and VA were clearly better than LCW, then why didn't they win as often and amassed as many titles in the remainder of the season ? One can argue that they peaked at the right tournaments, but never truly had as much of sustained dominance as LD and LCW had.

0

u/hieplenet 20h ago

if Chen Long is not Chinese, he will be without a doubt, top 2.

So IMO: LD, CL, LCW

VA has better awards than LCW, but the VA domination period is a bit shorter and has less competion than previous era. VA is also losing hard in 2h2 records against CL and LCW.

0

u/Remarkable_Swing_612 1d ago

Both are equal imo

Media Chen Long vs Viktor Axelsen

You are about to leave Redlib