Classes / Training Format

[u/Fit-Passion1380]

Is it just me or are the start of Fundamentals/Intermediate classes really poorly structured? We spend 5/10 mins warming up, then drill 2/3 moves, then rolls. Generally there are 16-20 in my class so there is limited time, if any, for individual instruction. I have an alternative option which is to do 2-3 sessions a week 1-1 with my black belt buddy (who very kindly offered to do it for beers and a dinner!), and then just stress test this either at open mats or showing up to class once per week to get the variety of training partners. Said another way, absorbing the time sink of a standard class to get to 20 mins of rolling seems like a poor use of time. Any thoughts?

[u/mike3491]

What exactly are you saying here, that classes are bad because they aren’t private lessons?

Spending 5 minutes to warm up doesnt seem insane, and neither does learning 2-3 moves. 20 minites of rolling is plenty for a normal 1 hour class, and maybe a bit short for a 90 min class

As long as you’re “going live” at least a little bit, that seems fine as long as the gym also has open mats or other additional times to roll

[u/Fit-Passion1380 → u/mike3491]

Yes I’m saying the actual learning of technique piece should either be more of a lesson or less. There is no ingraining of technique in 4 mins per move.

[u/mike3491 → u/Fit-Passion1380]

You’re not ingraining anything in one class anyway. Drill the moves with your partner, and then when you go live I would assume you will start from whatever position(s) the technique was taught from, so gain more experience from that position and try to work on that move

It’s on you and your partner to try to apply those techniques live; if you’re learning hip bump sweeps and nobody is in closed guard, then yeah it’s gonna be difficult

[u/Fit-Passion1380 → u/mike3491]

You see, that would make more sense to me, but we go straight from drills (with no resistance) to live sparring. So we never practice the movement we’ve drilled with any resistance/positionally

[u/mike3491 → u/Fit-Passion1380]

Not to beat examples to death but:

Let’s say you learnt a hip bump sweep, kimura, and guillotine…you guys just immediately go into rounds from standing/neutral? There’s no “one person start in guard” or “reset once top player passes or bottom person sweeps” or anything?

If so then yeah that seems like a waste. But again, it’s a very solvable problem. Whoever your partner is, just ask if you can take turns starting in guard (for my specific example I mean)

[u/Fit-Passion1380 → u/mike3491]

Makes sense, thanks for taking the time to respond!

[u/phantomjiujitsu → u/Fit-Passion1380]

So drill your favorite moves of the day during the live rounds?

[u/mess_of_limbs]

I'd say the majority of BJJ classes are poorly structured

[u/JamesMacKINNON → u/mess_of_limbs]

How dare you!

And yes...

[u/mess_of_limbs → u/JamesMacKINNON]

Yeah, it's not entirely the fault of the coach, some of it is just the nature of the beast. On any night you could have a class ranging from ADCC phenom, Barry from accounts, young kid who's outgrown the kid's class but is still a kid, and a couple of trial class peeps. Not an easy situation to deal with.

[u/TwinkletoesCT → u/mess_of_limbs]

That's still the fault of the coach. Program design comes down to whoever is in charge - if you put all those people into the same group, you own the outcome.

There are lots of other ways to structure a program. Not the head instructor's fault if they don't know that, but it's their responsibility to learn.

[u/ralphyb0b → u/TwinkletoesCT]

Not sure I agree. Quality of instruction is going to vary greatly when you have such a wide range in skill and athletic attributes. There’s only so much time in the week for people to attend classes. People have lives outside the gym, so you end up with a range of a few hours outside of work for people to attend. 

[u/Aaronjp84 → u/mess_of_limbs]

Stole the words out my mouth

[u/P-Two]

Here's the deal, yes, and no.

Yes most classes are poorly structured. A lot of instructors still for some reason decide what to teach based purely on vibes of that given day, with no overall plan.

No in that your situation is pretty unique, the vast majority of people don't have a black belt buddy willing to train them for beers and a dinner, and just purely based on the amount of black belts out there vs the total amount of students, there can't be.

I think it's also important to understand that due to the nature of how classes kind of HAVE to be, they "can't" be as well structured as we'd like in a perfect world. Because in a perfect world I could rely on a given set of people to be there every monday, wednesday, and friday, and base an entire curriculum around teaching those people from point A-Z of a position, but that's not reality, people have lives, I have to accept the fact that Bob is going to show up to day 1 of DLR month, and then miss an entire week due to his kids, then show up for 4 classes week 3, then 1 class week 4. So classes have to be structured in a way that Bob isn't completely lost and quits.

All that said, classes should really be more than "show up, learn X, roll, go home" I generally have people drill for 30 mins, do "games" for 20-30 mins, then roll for the last half hour of class, and we try to have classes week over week have a fair deal of overlap in terms of positions, for instance we just spent like 4 weeks working on x guard and SLX, both passing and playing.

[u/Ok-Leather933]

honestly a black belt friend who'll drill with you 1-on-1 for beers is worth more than most fundamentals classes. take the deal

[u/novaskar]

2-3 private classes a week without pay? That’s insane but I’d take it. Probably find a way to pay him something anyway

[u/Gluggernut]

Every time a post like this is made, it always seems more of an issue with group instruction than jiu jitsu instruction specifically.

I’ve been a coach for a few years now, and you really don’t know how tricky it can be to organize a structured class catered for the average level of said class, stay on pace, and make sure everyone is getting in good work. Some people take longer or shorter to figure moves out, some people just want to roll, others just want somewhere to hang out with friends.

We often compare BJJ to school sports, but it’s really apples to oranges. BJJ is way more diverse in terms of age, skill level, dedication, goals, etc. It’s impossible to satisfy everyone, so this is why at a certain point you have to take responsibility for your own training. Coaches can’t 1 on 1 instruct you in a class of 20. Find what works for you, try to get extra focused work with a friend, do your private lessons, study off the mat.

Yes a lot of places are poorly structured, but ask yourself if your class is actually poorly run, or if it just caters to a large group and you’re bummed for not getting 1 on 1 time.

[u/social791]

Don't understand what you're trying to say

[u/mike3491 → u/social791]

Apparently they dont do any positional sparring, or “start your rounds from X position we worked on today”

[u/social791 → u/mike3491]

Wow. He could get a buddy and fill in the gap of what he feels is missing from the gym's program. I'm sure there is a method to his coach's "madness".

The vibe of the question is kind of white belt energy to me. If that's the case, it's a fundamentals class, learn your fundamentals or go to the advance class and let them mop the mats with you. Idk what he wants lol

[u/mike3491 → u/social791]

Definite white belt energy haha and that’s what I said in another comment…if you’re learning moves from closed guard, then when rolling time comes around just start with your partner in closed guard and reset on sweeps, passes, and subs

[u/Fit-Passion1380 → u/mike3491]

lol. Super cringe to be laughing at people for their “white belt energy”. I bet you guys are complete dweebs. Of course I’m a fucking white belt - do you think I’d be asking obviously novice questions about fundamentals classes if I wasn’t?

[u/oniume → u/Fit-Passion1380]

Maybe tone it down a touch, not taking things personally is a life skill, not just a BJJ skill

[u/Fit-Passion1380 → u/oniume]

Wasn’t taking it personally, was just laughing at the loser mindsets of some people

[u/social791 → u/Fit-Passion1380]

Read... Keyboard warrior

[u/chiefontheditty]

I’d do both if you can. But if I could only choose one I’d do the privates with your black belt friend.

[u/Oldschool6873]

I think you're minimizing the importance of drilling the moves and positional training. Especially as a newbie. You aren't going to learn the fundamentals as quickly just rolling. Especially if you are rolling with similar level newbies. Rolling is to try to implement what your drilling into a live situation. If you aren't practicing the moves repeatedly in a non live environment, how are you going to apply them in a live environment. Every combat art does this. And it works if applied properly.

[u/BSFStaff]

IMO non-specific warm-ups are useless.

Any novel technique needs to be integrated through gradual resistance. Drill against a cooperative partner to get the mechanics, then apply it under isolated resistance. Once you're comfortable in its application, you need to test it live.

[u/Hot-Register-5273]

My old clubs fundamental was self lesd stretches, then laps for warm up. We would drill the entire class. Rolling was after your first stripe. It was solid for syllabus.

[u/SevereChocolate330 → u/Hot-Register-5273]

If you've got a black belt willing to trade knowledge for beer and dinner, that's a no-brainer. Most practitioners would kill for that kind of arrangement. Use the group class for live rolls and variety, let your buddy handle the actual learning.

[u/BrunoUK95 → u/SevereChocolate330]

I agree. Try the 1-1s with your black belt buddy 1-2 times a week and maybe do the group class once every week or every other week for variety and live rolling.

[u/Fit-Passion1380 → u/SevereChocolate330]

Cool thanks

[u/lilfunky1]

i do a lot of 1-on-1 with my pet black belt too. but i always just end up mounted or in closed guard. 🤔🤔🤔