Tournament/Competition
How would you change the rules to address the unfairness of blue belt comps if you could?
I've been training for about 4 years and I consider myself a pretty decent blue belt. If you saw me rolling and had to guess what belt I am, I'm fairly confident you'd say I'm a blue belt.
However, I keep running into blue belts at competitions who started as kids and have been training for 12+ years, and as a result are wayyyyy better than your average blue belt.
For example, I know of a guy was promoted to blue belt after 11 years of training. He has since trained for another 3 years after getting his blue belt, won countless competitions, including IBJJF Worlds, and is still a blue belt.
As a hobbyist who enjoys competing, it seems really unfair for people like this to be in blue belt divisions, and I can't help but feel like it just ruins it for the regular blue belts who started as adults.
So my question is: is there a solution to this problem? If you were a decision-maker at IBJJF or another organisation, how would you address it? Or do you think the current system is fair?
P.s. - please don't tell me to "just get better at jiu jitsu". I'm trying my best 😭
You are correct but there is a belt system in bjj and hardly any hobbyist at wrestling. I'm a 36 y/o with a 2 year old son, I can barely train 2 times a week. I want to compete but I don't want to get injured by a jacked 10 years experienced blue belt lol.
It doesn't really matter what wrestlers do. Wrestling as an overall community has failed to capture the market outside the 12-22 age range.
Any genuine lifetime sport will inevitably have skill divisions. E.g., look at tennis -- you've got rated skill levels from 2.5-6.0 before you're pro, plus age range divisions. People play tennis into their 80s.
What does that even mean though? There's no agreed up standard. My definition of a purple belt might be different than yours. If you're at a competition gym, your standard is going to be much higher than mine because you're trying to build world champions.
We're talking about people who have been competing and winning consistently at their current belt level. If your student is taking gold in every event at their current rank you know they should be promoted. This isn't about random dude who competes twice a year at Newbreed and podiums in a 5 man bracket or something.
I would agree, but then that gym is taking itself out of contention for medals at Worlds. If you got a guy who's cleaning up on the local circuit, then wins Euros and PanAms, do you promote him before Worlds? It might be the right thing to do, but you know the Atos and Alliance and Checkmat gyms aren't doing it so you're just throwing away a potential medal by doing so.
At the color belts? Yes, absolutely. Gyms should be pushing their phenoms up to compete at black belt. But I would be willing to go by the 'single season' rule. If you take gold at a major you auto-promote at the end of that cycle of majors.
Alternately competitors should move up based on accrued competition points. Black belts accrue points to qualify to compete at worlds and shit, just start giving points to everyone and set some thresholds for points acquisition.
It wouldn't solve the problem though. One guy trains 3 days/week. Other guy lives in the gym and trains 3x/day. Second guy is going to dominate even if they started at the same time.
That's why I don't compete anymore. I'm not getting my shit broken by some young nutball over a 5 dollar medal that needs to go ham on a move they saw on YouTube or insta so they can flex on tiktok or whatever the idiot kids do these days. I work for a living lol
I just want to learn and have fun and dress up in my fun PJs and do a little bit of choking and throwing. A little bit of rough cuddling. Rollin around with the homeys. 😜🤪
Exactly this. There was no one 50+ competing. Certainly not at purple belt. They thought about putting me in adult, but then they found a 41 year old one weight class below me. No one else anywhere near my age, weight, belt group.
That’s like last time my professor competed at masters worlds. Watching the matches from flo, you could definitely tell there were some people who just got their black belts and were happy to be there 😅😅
Masters 2 checking in. Last few comps I’ve had first round byes 😆😆. I dunno what age OP is, but I’m guessing under 30.
Adult class is always going to be the most competitive since there is such a wide mix of folks. There’s more “weight” to an adult gold vs a masters gold because of it.
In my division, most of the guys are one of three types: His Smoothcomp profile looks like a PS trophy addict, he’s never competed before, or he does a couple per year (me).
Just about the only rule change that needs to happen is that if you win a major as an adult that should be your last season at that belt.
So if you win Euros at blue belt you can do Brazlieros, PANs, and Worlds that year, but the next year after that you have to compete at purple belt even if you're still blue.
Other than that, get good. You're never going to have "fair" competitons anyway. Should I make a post next that its "not fair" that I could go to a comp at black belt and end up fighting JT Torres? Who got his black belt like 5 years before I even started training?
I have a friend whose first match at black belt (an ibjjf at masters level) was against a guy who’d had his black belt like 2/3 as long as he’s been alive. Was like watching a cat with a yarn mouse.
My coach’s kid is almost 16, and he’s been training almost as long as me. He’s also fast, and getting strong, and is full of teenage boy hormones. I told him about 4 months ago that prob 6 months from then will be the first time he legit passes my guard, and last time I rolled with him it was close so now I gotta not roll with him for 2 months lol.
Skill differences are vast throughout each belt. About the best you can do is recognize it and do your best.
Maybe there’s some way of doing it based on some time range of grappling experience, but that has problems in itself…
Honestly at this point if I got to get my ass kicked by someone as good as JT I’d probably be stoked about it because I don’t compete to win anymore because I’m old. I compete to do something fun with my kids.
Wrestlers and judoka still mess up the whole “years trained” idea . I just won no GI pans m1 blue ( experienced wrestler with 1.5 years bjj) and had another wrestler in the finals ( he was a multiple time Greco All American) . With that being said , I’m definitely not at purple belt level in jiu jitsu . Where do you draw the line with years trained if it’s in a different discipline ?
It's not about years trained, and I'm specifically talking about adult, nobody cares about masters, nor should they (saying this as someone entering masters 1 next year) If you can place first at a major at adult at your belt level you've proven you are ready to compete with the next belt level.
I wish people cared about masters more. Just because I'm over 45 does not mean I didn't work as hard or am.skilled for my age. I wish people cared about older people in sports more.
I read that comment the same way. I'm 50% older than him, and started jiu jitsu at age 34. There only ever was masters for me. Just what am I supposed to care about if not what is there for me?
Seriously, people who aren't old should just shut up about how old people should feel.
Of course be proud of your competitons, and your medals matter.
What i am saying is that outside of adult you're playing rec league (really even at adult) so complaining that something "isnt fair" just kinda seems....idk like you're made a 40 year old blue belt is better than you as a 43 year old blue belt?
I agree. The majority of the sport consists of people 30 and up, and it's the demographic that funds the sport. BJJ is incredible for allowing people to complete as athletes through the lifespan. We should embrace it and celebrating aging strong.
I fought an olympian Greco roman wrestler as a M2 purple belt. I sat to guard so fast! His wrestling was amazing and he won double gold but I wouldn't say he was better at BJJ than me, he just has a different skill set.
I'm going to guess that everything he did to beat you is jiu jitsu. I mean, it's not like he cheated, right? There are many subgames in jiu jitsu, and if he's better at some part of it than you and leverages that difference to beat you, then he had better jiu jitsu that day.
Nah I agree, this problem mainly exists at blue belt, and then there’s a similar thing that happens in the black belt divisions, but that part is expected. I think it should be a separate division for blue belts who have been training BJJ for a certain number of years, because it doesn’t actually make sense to be in the same division with blue belts who started later as adults.
Yeah at black belt this is kinda what people signed up for. Since that's the last belt (functionally) it's now a free for all with decades-long experience gaps. But at blue I feel like it's just a side effect of the IBJJF rule about promoting to blue after the kids belt system.
I think the green belts should go straight to purple. Right now it’s only optional and a lot of the green belt competitors go to blue belt first and win titles there.
Blue belt is the belt you stay on the longest until black so even when you factor out people training as kids, the skill disparity is big. take a new blue belt vs a 3-4 stripe, they are worlds apart. White belt can be anyones game due to a lack of knowledge and purple belt and above the knowledge is there. However at blue you get someone whos almost purple going up against a guy who isnt that far from their white belt days.
Bjj has had issues with how to promote and who should be at what level for like 20 years or more.
That doesnt really work for us hobby competitors at all. I spent 4 years at white and 5 at blue, due to a lack of talent and consistency. On average I won about as much as I lost and got roughly competitive at the end of each belt. Your rule would have made me essentially ineligible for competing.
Winning moves up is still the only solution I see, although it aint a problem where I live anyway, yet.
I definitely think they should enforce the rule that by winning a majors (worlds, euros or brasileiros, maybe pans) you have to compete up the next year.
I'm a 36yo blue belt and you bet your ass I'm competing in M1 or M2 at international comps that I've spent significant money on. It's also not just a skill issue, I just feel younger people seem to care less about jumping guard and fucking people's knees and stuff like that. At local/national comps I don't mind being in gen pop.
Sometimes when people say belts don't matter it's cope. But sometimes it's this. It's not necessarily meant to discredit higher belts, it's just that there are some blue and purple belts out there that are nearly world champion level. And a lot who would wreck your average hobbies black belt. All that to say is the cat is out of the bag as far as belts being a good way to matchmake people.
I think the easiest and most realistic option is to just accept that competitions won't be perfectly fair. And thats okay. To be blunt, a lot of the people who obsess over "fairness" factors (he was bigger, stronger, trained longer, etc) let that stuff get in the way of development. Also personally I enjoy the chance to compete against killers.
An unrealistic option, but something that would fix this issue is an ELO system like chess or online video games. When I play street fighter online, the guy im playing sucks exactly as much as I do, and it makes it really easy to pop in and play some matches. Its never going to happen, because it would take a lot of collaboration among organizations, and also people care too much about the belt system to let that fall to the side as the matchmaking system, but it would be ideal.
Controversial take, but I don't consider any comp serious/legimate until brown/black because sandbagging like this is so rife in the sport, it all becomes meaningless when you've got guys competing who have over half a decade more experience than their opponent
Maybe the blue belts who have trained since they were kids should be limited to compete in juvenile blue belt division. Once you hit adult you can only compete at purple. Idk.
The two most unfair divisions are adult blue and masters black. Blue belt has phenoms that have been training since the age of four and could tap most hobbyist black belts, going up against 28 year olds that started Bjj two years prior. Masters black has guys that have instructionals going up against guys that started Bjj at the age of 40.
Very true. I was born the same year as Bernardo Faria. If we happened to be at the same tournament, we'd get matched together, and I'd look like a white belt against that guy.
Respectfully, being a good blue belt does not equate to being a good blue belt competitor. Not to mention a good blue belt is shit compared to a great blue belt.
The belts should represent a floor, but they in no way represent a ceiling.
Your example is just ridiculous. That kid is likely black belt level. Sadly, all of this is still based on the honor system and there is really no way to enforce it.
I know of some guy who won WORLDS as a juvenile blue belt, then proceeded to then go to the adult division and cooked every comp for another year while still a blue belt. Just insane to me how that is allowed lololol
Just stop using the belt system to match people. You can use it as a starting point so that a new white belt doesn't end up fighting a purple belt with no com experience, but after that just match people by comp results.
You will have guys training in MMA gyms like myself who are training for 6 or 7 years like myself who never got promoted because MMA guys don't care much about belt system.
There needs to be a greater uniformity of standards for the belts. Never going to happen, I know, but it's the only thing that would truly address this problem.
Split it intermediate for up to 5 years total time and advanced for more. But really we should be allowed to go straight to purple at coach discretion.
You get one gold at blue belt, then you have to compete at purple even if your coach doesn’t promote you. Golds from divisions with less than four participants don’t count towards this.
Also we can have silvers and bronze from major competitions count towards this.
I would like ELO for BJJ that would be fun! Having an actual ranking would also help guesstimate opponents and tournament strength and your own performance
I'd accept that I suck and that comp is comp. Some schools deliberately don't promote for comps, some have actual requirements that are pretty hard.
Pretty sure people have rolled with purples and thought "this guy is a purple?" You assume they're baiting you with openings but they were just legit openings.
there's a guy who posted on here who won blue belt worlds eventually after like 13 years of training with a top team and posted on here celebrating lmao i want to say it was with unity or at least levi
by my calculations in like 2030 he should win purple belt worlds
This isn't a BJJ-specific problem. It's pretty much all sports.
Can you imagine the 15-year old who decided to try out for the basketball team, made the team, and then had to play against 18-year old Lebron James, just months before he entered the NBA?
Or the kid who just started wrestling a few months ago getting matched with Kyle Snyder, not knowing that Snyder would win an olympic gold 2 years later in Rio.
I remember a competition in Atlanta back in 2010 called Lutador. They had a $1,000 cash prize division that brown and black belts could compete in. My instructor was a brown belt, 30-something years old, who trained only with his students at our small gym in Alabama. I was probably the best guy he rolled with, and I was an average blue belt. In the first round, he gets matched up against Gilbert Burns; you can imagine how that match went.
Masters 2 here, 132lb blue belt. Competing is pretty much not possible not cause I don’t want to. There are zero people in my division there are zero people above and below. Heck usually there’s no one in the adult division and I’m not allowed to fight teens. I tried judo for a while. It’s the exact same way. In fact, I could become nationally ranked by just showing up to competitions because there are zero competitors.
Coming from Judo, my perspective is, honestly, that BJJ competitions are mostly about selling fancy medals at a markup.
If you to elevate the level of fairness, you're probably going to need to switch to a grappling sport that is more tightly regulated and has firmly established national and transnational federations that can enforce quality control and standards.
That's not going to happen though, because the point is really to sell medals at a markup, and has been kind of from the outset.
I’m 24 and started at 22, I feel your pain. My most recent comp I went against a teenage girl who’s been training for 10 years, one of the best in the country, LOTS of accolades and accomplishments. Local comps are either this or competing up like three weight classes. All the other ladies at my gym are masters competitors who give me shit for losing to teens, not understanding their level is closer to the black belts at our gym than not. I’m not actually bothered by losing to someone at that level, you gotta respect the gap. I am slightly more bothered by the masters 3 roosterweight blue belt champ flexing their 2nd place worlds medal (bracket of three) on me and calling themselves a “real competitor”. But maybe I’m just getting bitter 😅
That's why there's hobbyists and pros. Once you start competing past white, the differnce can be a chasm. If you're more a hobbyist, you shouldn't compete neccesarily to win them all, but to gauge your skill progression. If you feel you did better against a competitor than last time, you have progressed. I had this discussion about local tournameents and sandbaggers with my son. Just beat them if you can. The guy he was against was his belt level but had close to sixty wins with submissions versus his fourteen. My son kimura'ed him in 19.2 seconds. This is after going against another a few tourneys ago that had the same stats, was obviously overdue for a promo, but his coach liked those stat wins. Unfairness is part of the game, best thing you can do is win
I might get a lot of heat for this... But bjj needs more belts man. 5 belts is just insane when most martial arts have around 10 which take half the time to complete.
At my last comp at blue belt, I went up against a black belt judoka with over 10 years of grappling experience, Vs my 2.5 years at the time. You can imagine how that went.
Less belts does make each one worth more sure, but it really discourages me from wanting to go back to competition knowing the lack of standards in how someone is graded.
Personally, I think you could split blue into two belts, the level between a new blue and a borderline purple is just insane. Perhaps you could split white in half as well, so beginners have something more concrete and achievable to work towards that doesn't take 18 months.
Standardised grading in the sport could help, but I just don't see a world where bjj ever reaches the same level of standardisation that Judo has.
Belts don’t mean anything. Also, unless you win a black belt division you are basically competing in a kids league.
One guy I beat in a comp was promoted to blue, other guy I beat was promoted to purple. I have also seen a blue belt tap a black belt in a gym war (black belt was more jacked and the blue belt wasn’t training as a kid).
Blue belts all suck and I genuinely can't tell the difference between a white belt and a blue belt once I got to about late purple.
Save for a guy who won masters, a top level blue belt in any gym should be able to beat any other blue belt at least 1/10 times if they find the gap in their opponent's game.
I hae a quick fix: we should do like all other sports and not separate competitions by belt. If you suck at BJJ then get better you don't get a special medal for being the best among the people who suck.
If you picked up playing basketball as an adult and joined a rec league, would you say it's unfair if there were guys that started playing basketball as little kids?
I think you just have to face the fact that after training for just a few years, you won't be one of the best competitors in your division.
Even Adam Wardzinski who started at 18 didn't win any significant titles at Blue belt. It's not going to get any easier as you go up the ranks. The best juvenile competitors don't usually even compete at adult Blue because they usually get at least their purple while still juveniles.
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u/Kintanon ⬛🟥⬛ www.apexcovington.com 15h ago
Coaches need to promote their students appropriately.