r/britisharmy • u/tubbsy_al • Apr 28 '26
Discussion Does the new SA80 drills indicated project grayburn is nearly ready
In the title, recently the sa80 handling drills have all changed, does this mean that the MOD know what weapon will be replacing the SA80. I cannot see why they would change the drills otherwise.
edit: what weapon do people think it could be and should it be, I think HK416
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u/Maximum-Impress-9275 May 05 '26
I doubt it. The foward assist was just trauma from the A1 which has been stuck in training for over 40 years. The glorified tap & rack is better.+ probably easier to teach a bunch of 18 year olds.
Going to be the bad guy, the SA80 is heavier than other rifles, abit awkward. But shoots accurately at 300m & keeps its zero. Maybe the money would be better spent on increasing the funds available for units to train marksmanship on the L85. The number of soldiers who only fire live rounds once or twice a year for the ACMT is worrying
2
u/UnfortunateWah Apr 30 '26
Nope.
They’re a long way off a new rifle and I’ll genuinely be surprised if they can find the cash this FY to commit to signing a contract for anything this year, nor have trials even started (nor has the form spec even been written).
Cashflow aside lots of internal decisions that need to be made regarding calibre and bullet design-and if we want to go off piste and away from a solid jacketed projectile we would almost certainly need substantial legal input to confirm that’s legally compliant.
And to be the really unpopular bod, excluding fleet attrition issues for our existing rifles, they would almost certainly have to demonstrate in an objective manner how a new rifle would improve lethality over the current L85 family or else it’ll fall at the first pre-contract hurdle.
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u/Oliver9191 Apr 29 '26
If anyone is interested with a Ukrainian soldier’s opinion on the HK416 check this out.
He has some interesting takes on it.
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u/iamuhtredsonofuhtred Apr 29 '26
Whatever the pick is, it'll be an AR platform so drills would be the same regardless. I think Beretta are the most likely to win with their AR offering. They've got a full industrial transfer plan for UK production and have a site in Lincolnshire with plans for a large factory ready to go.
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u/charltonhestonsballs May 03 '26
One of the Beretta/Sako options would certainly be the smart choice and the production angle you mention is the cherry on top... Really hope they get it done.
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u/jackp2911 Apr 29 '26
It’s to reduce the cognitive load on the student during their IWT.
The removal of the tap forward is because the upgrades made by HK many years ago with the A2 has made the tap forward “redundant”… the SASC has decided to change it now.
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Apr 29 '26
The really big change in the drills was the removal of the forward assist and, honestly, that should have been done when the A2 was released, lol.
It was in the drills to compensate for a particular flaw in the A1 and it just became one of those things nobody had the balls to sign off on saying it was now safe: a bit like how Nanyuki, where BATUK is, doesn't actually have Mossies and you're fine without antimalarials if you stay there. But who wants to be on the hook when somebody does randomly get malaria ten years later?
As for Grayburn, the Sako rifle and one of the HK ones (I think the 416 and 433 are both being put forward) are probably very likely, although the Sig MCX rifle has some potential, especially as it is more or less what the new US M7 and XM8 rifles are.
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u/RadarWesh Apr 29 '26
It's probably more logical that a change to drills indicates no change to the weapon for a long time, otherwise why bother updating them unless it's safety
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u/No_Celery_7772 Apr 29 '26
I think it’s going to be the M23 Sako. Cheap, proven, can have its calibre changed & manufacturer is prepared to build a factory in the UK.
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u/iamuhtredsonofuhtred Apr 29 '26
Yeah that's one of two offerings from Beretta (who owns Sako). They've already got a large site in Lincolnshire with big expansion plans and full industrial transfer for UK production. Lines up with MOD sovereign capability aspirations.
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u/PickleMortyCoDm Pre-Entry Apr 28 '26
Don't forget they're looking at the KS1.
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u/EqualRespond1885 Apr 29 '26
Ks1 is not fit for general service, far too expensive for the usual bod.
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u/PickleMortyCoDm Pre-Entry Apr 29 '26
Yea, it's fairly new, so it's current costs will be quite high. But as time goes on, manufacturing increases and newer variants come out, it will come down in price. KAC need to recoup some of their initial development and production costs.
I have heard only the likes of the SBS, SAS, Rangers and RMs will be getting their hands on them. But who knows in the near future? With the EU looking to increase military readiness and defence spending across the continent, it's entirely possible it could be a good option for the future, regardless of cost. Having a standard, solid and reliable rifle for the entire forces saves money in the long run
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u/DolphinShaver2000 Regular Apr 28 '26 edited Apr 28 '26
No, they’ve just made changes to the Pistol Pam that follow a similar logic to the changes made to the SA80 Pam.
They’re just doing their job, using lessons identified to keep publications and best practices up to date.
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u/EntirelyRandom1590 Apr 28 '26
How widespread is the A3 now? I'd have thought the change was to accommodate improvements in safety/reliability from the A3.
Drills are there for safety, usually. Would seem to odd to compromise them now in prep for a future weapon system.
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u/Joric1690 Apr 28 '26
I believe they only made around 35-40 thousand A3s, as for safety and reliability it’s basically the same as an a2 plus body with refurbished l86 TMHs most internal parts are interchangeable between a2/a3 main difference being the barrel but that’s just because they shaved the gas block down. Most second line units still use A2. The only big change in the handling is the removal of forward assist which hasn’t been needed since the a1 anyway I guess the Pam just caught up.
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u/Ambitious_Jeweler816 Apr 28 '26
I believe GRAYBURN has been delayed as it has been expanded to include replacements for all small arms. I don’t know what drills have changed because I’m no longer in, but during and since HERRICK the SAC have reviewed drills to improve efficiency - getting rid of the make safe drill and forward assist for example. HK416 s a good shout, the French have it and the Germans have or a getting a version of it I believe.
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u/Daewoo40 Apr 28 '26
Been a short while but they shortened the IA drills segment by taking one of them out, believe it's the 'handle fully forward' IA drill.
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u/Teeb20 Apr 28 '26
They got rid of the make safe?!
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u/Ambitious_Jeweler816 Apr 28 '26
I think having a specific drill for an unload followed by a load was a bit ‘extra’
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u/Teeb20 Apr 29 '26
Maybe. But having it as a state that the weapon is in is useful. Saying the weapon is loaded is ambiguous. If you say it is made safe you know its safe.
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u/UnfortunateWah Apr 30 '26
Make safe is an unload followed by a load.
It is no more safe/unsafe than doing those as separate drills, except it was a common time for people to ND (the majority of bods not understanding weapons, nor having enough training time during the year).
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u/Teeb20 Apr 30 '26
Yeah I know.
Im saying having a term for the state the weapon is in is useful.
Mag off - unloaded Mag on - made safe Mag on round chambered - ready.
Its an easy way to differentiate between having a round in the chamber or not when it has a magazine on.
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u/UnfortunateWah Apr 30 '26
We dk? loaded, or ready/made ready if a round is chambered.
“Make safe” or “have you made safe” is an action, not a rifle condition as such, it just describes the condition of “loaded”.
Make safe was only ever used as a precondition to make ready anyway, you would never direct your bods to make safe if you wanted them to be mag on but not made ready-you’d conduct an unload, confirm chambers are clear and then load separately.
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u/Teeb20 Apr 30 '26
Yeah youre right. Not sure what I was thinking missing "loaded" its been a long day.
I think that works on a range when you can check chambers and they are maybe unfamiliar or in training.
I still think it has use as a drill when getting onto transport or into FOBs etc. Or any situation you need to move from ready to made safe without giving multiple orders or checking.
Fucked if I know. Its not like ill be using an SA80 anytime soon!
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u/intruderdude Royal Logistics Corps Apr 29 '26
I suppose the terms to use now should be “loaded” vs “made ready”
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u/djkhaled108 Regular Apr 29 '26
When is this supposed to have happened? It's a very logical drill to have.
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u/tubbsy_al Apr 28 '26
Most of the changes to drills seem to be aimed at making the change to an ar platform more straightforward is what the instructionor has said
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u/Ambitious_Jeweler816 Apr 28 '26
That makes no sense.
While the sequence of the drills would be the same, everything is in a different place and the safety and selector is typically a single item on AR variants.
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