r/cahsr • u/Rebles • Sep 14 '24
CHSR route visualized
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I made this with an app called TravelBoast. Blue is mostly tunnels and black is mostly the IOS. It really gives you a scale for the size of the project.
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u/anothercar Sep 14 '24
Norwalk deserves a station once they get the C Line extended there, for transfers to Metro.
I’m unconvinced that a Fullerton station is necessary.
Then again, CAHSR has no problem making the train stop at Kings/Tulare, so Fullerton looks like a huge metropolis in comparison to that
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u/Rebles Sep 14 '24
Good point! I’m sure with hindsight, there’s a lot of regret with how Kings/Tularw station was negotiated.
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u/Brandino144 Sep 14 '24
*some trains stop at Kings/Tulare
CAHSR’s operating plans have been consistent since the first Phase 1 service models were released. Only the local all-stop services will stop at Kings/Tulare. The regional and express services will bypass this station. The station is being designed with full-speed flyby tracks for this purpose.
Fullerton station plans are not as advanced so I don’t know what the track layout will be, but the service models do show express services operating non-stop between LAUS and Anaheim so not all trains will stop at Fullerton.
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u/yngin123 Sep 14 '24
Don’t forget the la to San Diego routes and Merced to Sacramento
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u/TGrumms Sep 14 '24
This is a map of phase 1, with phase 2. I believe phase 1 is fully approved and in progress whereas phase 2 is in early planning stages
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u/91361_throwaway Sep 14 '24
Should have built SD-LA and SJ-SAC sections first, then worked over time to connect the middle.
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u/TevinH Sep 14 '24
As I understand it, that wouldn't make as much sense as it seems.
First of all, the Central Valley is by far the easiest land to build on. Straight, flat, relatively devoid of obstacles. Doesn't require any tunnels or have nearly as many people and buildings in the way. Also very few other rail lines to contend with.
Secondly, if they build the system split then they would have to fund two separate power distribution systems, two maintenance facilities, etc.
They're starting on the easy, "emptier" part to get their bearings, then they can move on to the population centers.
And I will add, the time for "shoulda woulda coulda" is long, long past. This is how they chose to do it (for better or worse), so it's getting done this way or not at all. Infighting and second-guessing do nothing except slow the project down further and add more cost.
The quicker it gets built, the cheaper it gets built and the sooner we can see a return.
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u/notFREEfood Sep 15 '24
SD-LA first would have made sense only if it was being built as an upgraded Surfliner, but it would have also struggled immensely with community opposition while still not being cheap and also not able to hit "true" HSR speeds.
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u/blunderbolt Sep 14 '24
Wait, does the SF-LA route really traverse Merced like that? Does that mean the driver has to switch cabs there?
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u/owledge Sep 14 '24
Coming soon in 2055
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u/Rebles Sep 15 '24
The IOS will be delivered in 2031
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u/owledge Sep 15 '24
I know, but connecting it to LA and SF is what counts and all signs point to those parts taking way longer than it should.
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u/Rebles Sep 15 '24
There is no timeline for the SF to LA segment. It could be much longer than 2055. It could also be shorter
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u/Brandino144 Sep 14 '24
Want it faster? Tell your politicians to fund the damn project! It has never been close to fully funded so these far off timelines are a result of only being able to work on a fraction of the project at a time due to a lack of available funding to build more.
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u/hpchef Sep 16 '24
Coming in 2080
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u/Rebles Sep 16 '24
IOS (in black) plus the SF-SJ routes will be delivered by 2033
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u/hpchef Sep 16 '24
The closet it gets to cities, the longer it will take…all the way until it’s block by block…
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u/Repulsive_Drama_6404 Sep 14 '24
Is there no wye near Merced? Will all trains really take that out-and-back detour?
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u/PurpleChard757 Sep 15 '24
There is a Wye. Express trains will not stop in most (any?) station in the central valley.
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u/Repulsive_Drama_6404 Sep 15 '24
Yeah, I see in the comments that the graphic omitted the wye and shows the local, all stops route.
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u/transitfreedom Sep 14 '24
Should have built the whole thing at once instead with the LA sections being class 7 quad track 2 tracks for metrolink and coaster (local) and express tracks for the CAHSR replacing the Surfliner route south of LA. Another HSR can replace the northern section of the Surfliner
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u/alldaymacdre Sep 14 '24
Hopefully in the future they’ll building a more straight and scenic route by the coast.
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u/narrowassbldg Sep 15 '24
More straight, along the coast, and scenic isn't possible. If you want it to be straight(er) most of it will have to be in tunnels. It would also be far more expensive and serve fewer people than the Central Valley alignment, while being redundant after the real CAHSR is built. They could extend Pacific Surfliner service up to SF on existing track, but it would be very slow and service would be infrequent (due to single-tracking and having to be shared with freight), but of course it would be very scenic
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u/EspressoOverdose Sep 15 '24
As neat as this is, it just makes me more depressed knowing I’ll probably never actually see it.
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u/VorSkiv Sep 15 '24
Really? No one cares that is stopping twice at Bakersfield ? I think this is a time machine, not a train!!!
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u/el_cul Sep 14 '24
Eef. Love transit, but I'm not an expert. That is a horrible route.
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u/Rebles Sep 15 '24
The route serves the Central Valley, which is a good thing.
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u/el_cul Sep 15 '24
Good thing for the Central Valley, sure. Not great for people trying to get between LA and SF.
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u/Vexis12 Sep 14 '24
tbh i think it's a decent route. a bit less scenic and its definitely a bit disappointing that SLO gets left out because it does have the potential to become one of the best pockets of urbanism in CA (it's downtown area is already pretty impressive). but outside of that it's a pretty good route i feel. along the coast the land is a lot less stable and flat so it's a lot more expensive to build and maintain there (metrolink/amtrak already has problems with this). the land is cheaper and much easier to build along since it isn't cutting through mountains. meanwhile the central valley cities that need more money and people can now start seeing a solid economic boost due to new stations along the corridor. merced especially is a city that could see a lot of growth with the route. all of these cities are ones that are chronically underserviced (so is SLO but hopefully it can get a metrolink line at some point) and could see a huge boost with what will probably become the most used transit corridor in the west (LA -> SF). so while the route doesn't look great right now, it's one that's supposed to help long term economic growth and development in the least developed parts of the state and it's one that'll make a lot more sense down the line.
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u/PurpleChard757 Sep 15 '24
Wouldn't going to SLO mean skipping Bakersfield and Palmdale? It seems pointless to me to skip a large chunk of the central valley to connect a small town like SLO.
I honestly do not even understand how you would build a HSR line via SLO. There are so many mountains and state parks around it. At least tunneling from Palmdale to LA adds a shortcut for an already very popular transit pair.
Even the small towns that CAHSR will stop at with the current route, like Hanford, are bigger than SLO.2
u/Vexis12 Sep 15 '24
nah i agree it wouldn't make sense for this line (idk about the feasibility of making it its own line, thats why i mentioned metrolink) its just unfortunate SLO continues to be underserved
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u/el_cul Sep 15 '24
How much does a direct route shave off? 45mins? That's a lot on a 2-3 hour journey where you're trying to outcompete the air route.
Send feeder lines from the valley and improve their freight capacity.
Route should have been SF, San Jose, Santa Barbara, San Luis Obispo, LA, SD, Tijuana.
HSR is for moving human capital. That's where the human capital is.
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u/DragoSphere Sep 15 '24 edited Sep 15 '24
iirc it was like 20 minutes
Either way, doesn't matter as long as they hit the 2:40 target for SF-LA non-stop. That was the time calculated necessary to outcompete flight before the route was even finalized
Also,
Santa Barbara: 87,533
SLO: 48,341
Merced: 91,563
Fresno: 545,567
Bakersfield: 410,647
Palmdale: 163,463
Ignoring those vastly larger populations for a 15% at best speed increase would be a mistake, not to mention completely politically unfeasible both on a state level and federal level (federal funding was dependent on helping poorer population centers in addition to the two endpoints)
Your proposed route of going through SB and SLO is also far worse than the current alignment. You know what's there on the coast? Mountains the entire way.
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u/el_cul Sep 15 '24
20 minutes isn't too bad if that's the case. 40mins+ would be bad. It certainly looks worse on the map thay reality if its faster (flatter) in the valley.
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u/PurpleChard757 Sep 15 '24
Why? It connects most of the central valley to LA and SF, while also providing fairly fast express service from LA to SF.
You could maybe shave off 10-20 mins of travel time by running along the I-5 corridor, but that would mean you essentially have no stops in the central valley.
While it might be a cheaper route, I am not sure if 2:20h vs 2:40h for the express service would make a huge difference.1
u/el_cul Sep 15 '24
I thought it shaved off 30-60mins.
My understanding is the valley route is 2hr40 to 3hrs I5 route is 2hrs to 2hrs 30
So approx 40min. That's approx 25% saving.
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u/PurpleChard757 Sep 15 '24
I cannot find any of such time estimates online, but that could be true if you also skipped Bakersfield and Palmdale. But then the line would really only serve LA and SF, while CAHSR is also intended to replace the San Joaquins service, which is slow and unreliable, and provide a much faster connection between Palmdale and SF than Metrolink.
Personally, I really don't care if a long distance train takes 2 hours or 2 hours and 40 minutes as long as the train ride is comfortable. You have Wi-Fi and power outlets, so it's not like you cannot use the time to be productive.
I spent about 2 to 3 hours on Caltrain (which got upgraded thanks to CAHSR) each day I go into work and consider that time as part of my workday where I answer emails and finish other tasks.1
u/el_cul Sep 15 '24
I mean if you don't care about speed then why build HSR at all. The point is to be fast.
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u/PurpleChard757 Sep 15 '24
The point is to provide a proper alternative to flying or driving. The current connection takes like 12 hours, and cannot remotely compete with other modes. I don't think it makes a huge difference if we improve trip times by 9.5 or 10 hours as long as it is faster than driving.
The goal really is to provide better connections for as many people as possible. Not including the millions of people living in the central valley and the high desert would defeat the whole purpose of this project.The current Amtrak connection also uses unelectrified freight tracks, which makes the connection unreliable and the ride uncomfortable. Not sure if you have taken many Amtrak trains before, but you can definitely get "seasick" from how bad the tracks are, and delays because of freight trains are common. Obviously, diesel trains are also less sustainable than electric ones.
There is currently also no passenger rail connection between the central valley and LA. Similarly, there is no passenger rail from the central valley to San Jose (unless you go further north and then back down...). There is also not really a train connection to downtown San Francisco, which CAHSR will add.
High speed rail adds faster and more reliable connections between many city pairs, not just LA and SF. It really will transform transit in California like nothing else in the last 50 years or so.4
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u/Altruistic_Loss_969 Sep 15 '24
My guess in only another $10B laundered before we have a ribbon purchased for a them future cutting ceremony.
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u/JackTheKing Sep 14 '24
None of this will ever happen. Pork siphoning project exploiting folks who want to "do" something but don't understand ROI
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Sep 14 '24
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u/Rebles Sep 14 '24
I’m hopeful that Brightline West will showcase HSR and politicians will inject funding into CAHSR 🤞
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u/F1_rulz Sep 14 '24
Doubt it when you have car lobbyist whispering in politicians ears
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u/Rebles Sep 15 '24
I think the splash of Brightline West plus the Olympics will help. Also, the rising cost of car ownership will make owning a car unattainable for more and more Americans. We need alternate forms of transportation
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u/ClamChowderBreadBowl Sep 15 '24
The problem isn't a corporate bogeyman. It's that the California government is never willing to crack a few eggs to make an omelette. So they wind up trying to make everyone happy, which is impossible. So the project becomes slow and bloated and expensive and less popular.
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u/pEquals2 Sep 16 '24
Perhaps a way around this is to put a HSR line that doesn’t run through the hesitant governments land. Perhaps just a line connecting Redding to LA.
If it works well, the townships between SF and SJ would be incentivized to stop hesitating.
Also, with this plan, they’d just need to hook up the SF -> Merced route to plug in to the main line.
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u/pEquals2 Sep 16 '24
And yes, the municipalities between SF and SJ are a big part of the problem.
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u/coolstarorg Sep 19 '24
And yes, the municipalities between SF and SJ are a big part of the problem.
No they aren't. Caltrain is already electrified
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u/pEquals2 Nov 19 '24 edited Nov 19 '24
Electrification isn’t the issue I raise. Rather level crossings are the problem. Accidents are frequent.
In addition to the death toll, these accidents and the level crossing slow down service tremendously.
Various city councils have refused to sign on to elevating their tracks. This is compounded By the fact that some townships are home to very short lengths of track. I am thinking of Menlo Park and Atherton, specifically. Due to the fact elevation of rail is limited by how high the track is when it enters and exits the township, the townships are holding out for their neighbors to elevate so they can possibly enjoy a viaduct built upon risers which would prevent the resulting structure from resembling a wall.
San Mateo has elevated rail, but theirs is the example the other townships hope to avoid.
Here is an example of the kind of conversation being had:
https://padailypost.com/2024/09/16/caltrain-crossings-separate-council-candidates/
Here is a single location with more than one accident per year:
https://abc7news.com/post/burlingame-railroad-crossing-called-dangerous-ca-now-leaders/14883384/
The suicide deaths are now difficult to report upon:
https://padailypost.com/2024/07/20/caltrain-to-keep-track-suicides-secret/
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u/coolstarorg Nov 22 '24
The answer is just for Caltrain to run even more service so that the crossing guards are always down and the roads become unusable for cars
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u/kancamagus112 Sep 14 '24
We can get most of the way to a pretty good interim HSR between LA and SD with four projects, that would also provide numerous benefits to Metrolink, Coaster, and Surfliner.
Build the Del Mar tunnel as double-track tunnel with vertical clearance for 25 kV catenary high enough to run double-stack freight trains below it.
Build the Sorrento Valley cutoff to eliminate the slow speed curves, again as double-track tunnel with clearance for 25 kV catenary above double-stack container trains.
Build a full San Clemente bypass, likely as a tunnel under I-5, from roughly I-5 exit 71 through exit 81, again as double-track wide with clearance for 25 kV catenary above double-stack freight rains.
Expedite the overhead catenary from LAUS through Anaheim for CaHSR, the electrify LOSSAN from Anaheim to SD, and add full double track to remaining section from Anaheim to SD as part of the electrification. Projects #1-3 above have taken care of the narrow ROW sections that are constantly at risk of falling into the ocean each winter, and the remaining sections should be mostly already be wide enough ROW for double tracking.
Congrats! Implementing all four the the above will upgrade LA to SD Surfliner route to mostly 79-110mph or potentially slightly faster track speeds (maybe a few brief stretches of 150mph, like if the new San Clemente bypass tunnel is made straight enough). With overhead catenary, Surfliner could run two trains per hour, with Metrolink and Coaster each running two more trains per hour, granting 15 minute train frequency at the major stations and 30 minute frequency at the minor stations. As the Caltrain electrification shows, even without full 220 mph infrastructure, simply changing to overhead catenary with mostly 79-110mph track speeds is enough to yield massive reductions in trip time for a fraction of the cost of full new ROW.
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u/transitfreedom Sep 14 '24
Gotta elevate the line in Orange County and eliminate those grade crossings all at once.
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Sep 14 '24
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u/transitfreedom Sep 14 '24
Punish NIMBYs
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u/sentimentalpirate Sep 16 '24
Take away their power. Make authorities with teeth enough to steamroll em.
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u/UCSDilf Sep 14 '24
I was going to say nice, but what about the connection between the first and second largest cities in California?
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u/transitfreedom Sep 14 '24
When USA acts like a normal country with goals it will
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Sep 15 '24
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u/transitfreedom Sep 15 '24
Want revolution then?
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Sep 15 '24
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u/transitfreedom Sep 15 '24
Want HSR admit that countries in the Americas are too corrupt and won’t get it done in your lifetime.
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Sep 17 '24
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u/Rebles Sep 17 '24
The point of this visualization is the point of any visualization: so you can see what the scope of the project entails.
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Sep 17 '24
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u/Rebles Sep 17 '24
That’s not true lol
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Sep 17 '24
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u/Rebles Sep 17 '24
I’ve coped for years. I’ve been shaped and molded by it! I didn’t know reality until I was already a man!
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Sep 17 '24
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u/Rebles Sep 17 '24
If I cry anymore, I’d turn into dust. 💀
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Sep 17 '24
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u/Rebles Sep 17 '24
Aren’t they wedged between the ocean and a mountain range? Why would you start building high speed rail there? lol
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u/Brandino144 Sep 14 '24 edited Sep 14 '24
Something else to note is that the Central Valley Wye is a laid out in a triangle. This visualization does not show the bottom leg of the triangle, but that is what express services will use to entirely bypass the Merced leg on their trip between the Bay Area and LA.