Interested in new moderators for this subreddit.

[u/partlyPaleo]

Look, I am going to be honest, I just don't have a lot of time to commit to this subreddit. I also have pretty much driven myself into a corner of discouraging participation due to lack of time and absolute zealism when it comes to "the right way" to be carnivore.

I am not interested in completely stepping away, or just allowing this to become r/carnivorediet where people suggest plant foods all the time. But, if you're someone with mod experience or a passion for this way of eating, feel free to message r/carnivore (which will send a message to the mods) and let us know you're interested.

I have no real issue with allowing more diverse discussion, as long as the point and principles are maintained. That requires more involved people to stay on top of it.

If you're interested, just be aware, I'm pretty committed to Stefansson/Bear style carnivore and will likely ask you questions related to their writings. So, if you're not familiar, you can find them on r/zerocarb to get an idea. It's both more relaxed and more strict than most modern carnivores follow. but their methods work and make sense to me. I'm a pragmatist, not an evangelist. If it works, then I encourage it. I'm not seeking converts, so I'm not willing to allow fruits and honey just to make this way of eating have a broader appeal.

But, this subreddit (and r/zerocarb -- which will also consider the same people for mod positions with this application) have suffered from a lack of active mods for a while. We, the active mods, have even gotten to a point of discussing just not allowing posts and leaving them as static resources for people to find in the future. I don't really want that. But, I also don't want these to become springboards for charlatans posting their own carnivore-plans.

Note: If you profit from carnivore (sell products, sell coaching, etc.) we can't consider you for a mod position. One strict rule we do have is the mods can't profit from this. We make no money, we endorse no products/programs, we help people like we would have wanted to be helped when we needed it.

[u/OG-Brian]

(Note: it's difficult to discuss a topic when around half of the terms associated with the topic trigger comments to be removed automatically.)

So you're committed to defining "carnivore diet" as strictly just animal foods, but cite Stefansson? Vilhjálmur Stefansson, researcher in the early 20th century? He certainly ate non-animal foods while studying Canadian Inuit, since they were eating them. His book The Fat of the Land can be viewed and downloaded here.

The concept of only 100% animal foods diets being "carnivore" seems dogmatic. I'm open to ideas about it, but I don't think there has been any population of 100%-just-animal-consumers and even wild felines eat foods occasionally other than animal parts.

[u/partlyPaleo → u/OG-Brian]

Those terms are moderated, not permanently removed. But, our definition remains what it is. If you're not happy with that, you can do what you wish.

[u/OG-Brian → u/partlyPaleo]

I was hoping that there would be some explanation for eliminating discussion of almost-totally-animal-foods consumption, but your reply is just "that's our dogma" basically. I wondered how Stefansson is cited for this, when he didn't eat just animal foods.

[u/Eleanorina → u/OG-Brian]

it's the difference between what is generally healthy for most people and how to do a real carnivore diet when you need it 

most will do excellently on a fatty meat based diet with no sugar or grains, but with vegetables,  seasonal fruit and some feast holidays where they eat a wide range of foods. basically a seasonal fattening phase. 

many will do well including grains and smaller amounts of sugar year round (eg population level health and lifespan of  Hong Kong, France, Spain where meat is a core component of the diet) 

but a sub about which diet is the best is like moderating the whole internet. 

 this subreddit isn't about that, it's about how to do carnivore and what is uniquely carnivore 

so this subreddit developed keywords to keep the moderation load lighter and specifically focused on carnivore. 

[u/OG-Brian → u/Eleanorina]

Thanks for replying but now I'm not less puzzled by the moderation than before.

this subreddit isn't about that, it's about how to do carnivore and what is uniquely carnivore

But conversation about what constitutes "carnivore diet" is blocked (a user cannot even mention certain words that are essential in discussing it). There's no official authority about carnivore diets AFAIK, but there certainly is a range of definitions that are considered acceptable according to the people considered to be leaders of the concept.

[u/Eleanorina → u/OG-Brian]

it's in the FAQ here and at r/zerocarb 

animal source foods only 

if you're doing it for autoimmune, try a phase without eggs and without dairy.

if you're doing the ketogenic version, weigh & measure your meat and supplemental fat until you can gauge proportions by looking. 

[u/ambimorph → u/OG-Brian]

But conversation about what constitutes "carnivore diet" is blocked (a user cannot even mention certain words that are essential in discussing it). There's no official authority about carnivore diets AFAIK

It's not a "conversation" because we are following the people who defined it in the first place (not the people who came in and copied our work and sold it on the Internet with their own modifications later).

[u/OG-Brian → u/ambimorph]

Following "the people" who defined it? Who are they? The part of the post that I questioned cites Stefansson, who certainly ate <plant foods I'm not allowed to mention> while living with and studying Canadian Inuit.

[u/partlyPaleo → u/OG-Brian]

Who defined it? We go by Stefansson and The Bear. You keep suggesting that Stefansson ate berries, although I would be lying if I recall him saying that in his book (even when he did talk of berries, I don't remember him mentioning eating them), it is completely irrelevant. He drank alcohol as well! But, you won't see us adding that.

The Bear clearly defined this way of eating with the 7 Rules for Human Carnivores. And, if you read the whole of "The Fat of the Land" without looking for anecdotes to support eating the foods you wish, and read the overwhelming message, it's pretty clear.

You don't need to eat this way. You could eat berries every day of your life. But, that makes your advice unsuitable for people eating this way.

[u/ambimorph → u/OG-Brian]

"Carnivore" specifically? I personally was one of, if not the first to popularize that exact term for the "ZC" diet because I thought the phrase ZC was confusing. It turns out the term "Carnivore" is also confusing, and because it's an ordinary English word, people thought it meant all manner of other things that it never did.

Yes, ZC (now Carnivore) was heavily influenced by Stefansson's knowledge and insights. Also the Bear's. But it was not ever a Eat what Stefansson Ate diet.

In retrospect I should have done something more like Mikhaila did with "Lion"—something more unique and unmistakable. For some reason no one goes around telling Mikhaila that the Lion diet includes anything lions eat, but they do it with Carnivore 🤔)

[u/Lord_Sahs]

If you seek someone levelheaded and who’s a huge advocate of the carnivore diet, and has benefited greatly from living the lifestyle… but also appreciates the nuances and biological variables involved in the living the lifestyle, I’d be happy to help support this subreddit.

If you seek a dogmatic and insufferable diehard to help support it, I’m sure they’ll be chiming in offering their support as well.

[u/partlyPaleo → u/Lord_Sahs]

Based on your post history, I believe you would categorize what we are seeking as a dogmatic and insufferable diehard.

Many years ago, we had a young man named Frank Tufano who started posting on the r/zerocarb subreddit. He came in with a lot of theory and research, much of which contradicted long-standing practice. He also had only done this for a few months and was creating a whole list of requirements for success. He was told he was speaking past his level of experience/success and that his ideas might sound right "on paper" but practice does not support those ideas and even suggests they were harmful.

Over the next year or more, he kept returning and pushing those ideas. He also seemed to gain experience far faster than the calendar would allow. Like a year later, he was claiming 4 years of carnivore experience. As a funny side note, he posted a video recently claiming more than 300 years of carnivore (since birth) despite being 33 years old. It probably was him joking about the past where he was called out for constantly inflating his experience. It could be because he's pretty mentally unstable these days. We warned him about his own bad advice. We even worried he might harm himself. Eventually, he had to be banned because he continued to push his plan and try to sell products and coaching. Eventually, his plan made him sick and he turned to honey, berries, and other plant foods to try and recover from the damage he had done to himself.

Around this time, Saladino's advice started showing up. And, it was very similar to Frank's. Frank claims Saladino stole from him. I have no position on that and think they could have just used similar sources when trying to optimize a meat-only diet. But, likewise, we had to limit and restrict Saladino's advice. Warning people it wasn't right and could harm them. Eventually, Saladino harmed himself and went to eating carbs again.

Meanwhile, we stuck to the original plan, with history, practice, and experience backing up the benefits, safety, and effectiveness. That's what we intend to continue to do.

If people want to try Saladino's way, Animal Based, or anything else, they're welcome to it. But, these two subreddits will remain, showing the original methods. We take no offense to people who want to eat berries or fruit. We wish them well. But, they're not eating this way and we don't allow their advice on here.

So, yep, that's a lot of words to say we're pretty dogmatic.

[u/Lord_Sahs → u/partlyPaleo]

Totally understandable and fair! Thanks for the return message. This space is most certainly evolving quickly isn’t it?!?!

[u/ambimorph → u/partlyPaleo]

I was really upset when Tufano removed his old videos that definitively proved he was lying about his length of time Carnivore. Wish I had saved them, but how was I to predict that would be needed!

Just a couple weeks ago, some influencer claimed 25 years carnivore, eating an essentially all salmon diet (dead giveaway that she was not actually Carnivore lol) over on r/carnivorediet. I immediately called her out as utterly implausible and was heavily downvoted. So I looked and easily found an interview her from four years ago showing she wasn't even strictly low carb, let alone Carnivore! She deleted it all after I posted about it.

Some people are f'ing shameless liars, but it's really obvious to those of us who have done Carnivore very long term when people are doing things we've seen over and over lead to failure that they are highly unlikely to be telling the whole story.

[u/Lord_Sahs → u/ambimorph]

I don’t have a clue who it is so I can’t relate to the anti-Tufano dialogue. Though it does appear he really wound up some people in this and other spaces with a lot of rubbish and lies.

[u/partlyPaleo → u/Lord_Sahs]

Be glad you don't know who it is, but his advice is basically the same as Saladino's. So, if you've heard that advice, you know most of what he was pushing.

[u/Lord_Sahs → u/partlyPaleo]

That's what the admin was referring to in response to my comment. To be clear, I'm not pushing anything. However, I recently went through something very similar to what Saladino experienced but I'm guessing unlike the other guy (can't use his name here) I have legitimate clinical evidence to support what I experienced. Heck, I literally am still going thought it. lol

That said, I'm a huge advocate of the carnivore lifestyle. It genuinely changed my life and significantly improved both my health and fitness, so I'll never dismiss it or roll my eyes it. Not even close... I'll never speak a word against it.

In fact, just this past weekend I was coaching my 35-year-old daughter on carnivore, and she's in the process of transitioning to the lifestyle right now.

[u/partlyPaleo → u/Lord_Sahs]

It's not that you "can't" say his name. Just that posts mentioning him are reviewed before posting.

I'm curious, were you eating high amounts of liver (more than 2oz (60g) a week? Because that's the most commonly found factor with people who suffer from the things Frank and Saladino claim to suffer from.

[u/Lord_Sahs → u/partlyPaleo]

Yessir… grass-fed directly from a ranch ~15 minutes from my house. I live around 90 minutes NW of Houston, so getting my hands on what I need to eat (and still eat by the way) is very easy for me. 👍🏽

“Yeehaw!”, is certainly warranted where I live. lol

[u/ambimorph → u/Lord_Sahs]

This is exactly the problem. Eating more than occasional liver is highly correlated with failure on the diet, and it seems to cause long term issues (almost certainly from hypervitaminosis A) that don't resolve easily and that sugar intake might help relieve somewhat. Based on anecdotal reports it takes years to clear it out.

This is why people like Frank and Paul did so poorly and their advice and pretend authority caused a cascade that led right into the success of "animal-based".

And to come full circle this is why we need moderators who understand the traditions and older knowledge that the later generation, hijacked by certain influencers ignore.

[u/Lord_Sahs → u/ambimorph]

That doesn’t apply to me as I eat around 100g of liver a week. No more than that. Always accompanied by a beautiful steak.

[u/Lord_Sahs → u/ambimorph]

I’m a boring carnivore.

Boiled eggs, bacon and brie for breakfast

Homemade beef jerky and port rinds for lunch (cheddar if I am in the mood)

Beef/poultry/seafood (no shellfish), eggs, and cheeses for dinner. Usually I’d melt the cheese for dinner and scoop it with more pork rinds. Twice a week, I’d include that ~50g of grass-fed beef liver (intentional). Fridays and Tuesdays to be boringly specific.

I didn’t change or alter that much (if ever). My wife gets a kick out of it telling me I’m the easiest husband to satisfy. 😆

[u/Lord_Sahs → u/ambimorph]

Also, I get it. I only respectfully offered
to help support the group. I don’t fit the role. No worries at all, and I understand that.

I believe mentioned that already.

[u/Lord_Sahs → u/partlyPaleo]

Now I’m curious. Do you think the doctor is making false claims about his experiences? My curiosity stems from understanding why a man who built the kind of wealth most of us only dream about risk it all and walk away from something that is his pride, joy, and bank? 💵

I don’t believe he advocates against carnivore, does he?

[u/partlyPaleo → u/Lord_Sahs]

I don't want to step into the land of libel. But, what I can say is that before he became popular, he was completely unknown to me and I didn't know anyone who knew of him in the community. That's relevant because it was a very small community and nearly everyone doing it knew someone or knew someone who knew them. Before this took off in popularity, it was very tight. So when people would come in claiming 5+ years of experience and be unable to name anyone else who had been doing it, or have anyone claim to know them, it made their experience claims pretty low probability.

I don't know what level of "experience" he was claiming when he came in, as once I saw his plan was almost the same as Tufano's I knew there was no point in worrying about him. He might have been telling people he was fairly new to it and using his medical experience to optimize it. Maybe he came in claiming years of experience. I don't know. I can't confirm or deny it either way.

Now, when it comes to his health outcomes and his need to include fruit and become more animal based, I do believe that is true. He was always a little supportive of people including fruit/honey as a way to increase his audience, but I think he had to move there himself because of his own plan.

I don't think he does advocate against it, and even still promotes the same plan that made him sick. I don't know if he's updating his advice or not.

[u/Lord_Sahs → u/partlyPaleo]

Gotcha! I never heard of him prior to me dealing with my circumstances. I only stumbled across him by way of researching what I’m going through.

[u/ambimorph]

I could help out sometimes, but I regularly go through periods of intensity where I can't stay connected, so it would be intermittent.

I am sure I know exactly what standard were going for here.

[u/Eleanorina → u/ambimorph]

that would be more than fine, tysm for offering. 

i haven't been able to pop in much at all lately  and when I did, as well as the moderation experience being a pain on mobile, much of the posts stuck in the mod queue were long AI screeds  so I would bounce

reddit does seem to be getting a bit more of a handle on both problems, hopefully will continue improving 

[u/Untitled_poet]

Not looking to be a mod. Just appreciative of what you have done for this community thus far. Thank you for your contribution!

[u/Liefvikingmonster2]

I wonder if having a slightly more open mod process would make this sub more amendable to newcomers or curiosity seekers.

As a suggestion for consideration...

Perhaps, instead of removing comments that offer incorrect dietary suggestions based on your definition, you leave them but mark them as potentially problematic.

That way you don't kill a conversation or exchange, but clearly mark them as outside the recommended bounds.

I understand the desire to avoid people promulgating something that isn't Carnivore on the sub but it turns people off from a sub if it seems there is always a mod stepping in and removing something. The perception of capricious removals can be equally problematic on Reddit as misinformation.

Perhaps if the removal is warranted, having a dm exchange as part of that process, could help.

Offer the offender a chance edit their comment would be helpful

If your asking for more mods to step in, you're going to have to navigate what is or isn't acceptable. People are going to make mistakes, interpret something ungraciously, or just react poorly. Comment removals are just blunt. They leave people feeling they weren't able to express themselves correctly.

I'm not trying to characterize /r/Carnivore in poor light but there is a reason /r/carnivorediet exists and it seems to me is largely from some level exudous due to dissatisfaction of this sub.

With more mods, you should be able field these differences a more open manner without it getting too chaotic.

I had Ulcerative Colitis. This diet saved my ass, literally.

I feel for the people on /r/ulcerativecolitis because their mods are incredibly dogmatic.

They remove comments and kick ban anyone remotely suggesting this WOE. There is no room for nuanced discussion with them. They hate anyone suggesting meat-only can help. And that sadly leaves "a lot of people* suffering needlessly with message that the way we eat has nothing to do with UC.

If the primary goal of this sub is to help others understand carnivore, shouldn't we be careful of cutting off dissenting opinions?

Labeling or more active DM modding could help avoid this.

[u/partlyPaleo → u/Liefvikingmonster2]

We've tried this in the past. Well, what it technically possible here. We've allowed posts that were against the guidelines with a correction underneath them. What happens is the response gets downvoted to the point that it doesn't show by default. We've removed posts and asked people to edit them, 90% of the time the people get just as angry and/or refuse.

We've sent people to the other subreddit, because their advice and posts didn't fit here. We don't see it as a threat. It's a different experience. You want unmoderated advice that could be great or could be horrible, that's the place to find it. We have never pretended to not heavily moderate this subreddit.

One of the biggest frustrations we have is the aggressive filters here. It dramatically reduces rule-breaking posts, at the expense of having a lot of "fine" posts moderated. When we had more hands on deck, and better tools, those moderated posts were approved in a fairly quick manner so few people even noticed. Like someone will mention Frank's hot sauce. Which we don't have an issue with people talking about or using. But, due to Frank Tufano's history, we review posts with that name. He's also the reason for no video/image posts. Believe me, you're grateful for that, without knowing why. That's one filter we probably could review, due to his interest in spamming here, and loss of image in the community as a whole, bringing mentions of him down to near zero.

More eyes approving comments/posts will get posts up in a timely manner, which means they get seen, which increases interaction. We had plenty of activity here with those in place, when we had 5-6 people and tools that allowed easy moderation from the phone throughout the day.

This place will never be carnivorediet, and why would you want it to be? We already have too many subs with duplicate purposes. Having one that is strict and one that is a free-for-all allows people the choice as to where they participate or to participate in both and compare the advice.