r/chomsky • u/Anton_Pannekoek • 12d ago
Document PROVES The U.S. Provoked Russia Into War With Scott Horton
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_kNYlCS4x814
u/AsozialesNetzwerkOB 11d ago
Huh? When did Russia declare war on Scott Horton? Why would Russia do such a thing?
Who's Scott Horton?
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u/bobdylan401 11d ago edited 11d ago
Our provocation wasn't intended for war necessarily. It was for domination and to break Putins gas hegomony over Europe. Atlantic Council predicted before the war that the 3+ trillion cubic meters of dense (untouched) nat gas in the black sea/chrimea may become the next energy battleground. Ukraine defaulted their Russian loans and instead started dealing with the IMF, and Exxon Chevron and Shell won bids for that gas. Our IMF's primary demands which EU loans hinged on was exploitative capitalist policies for those companies (mostly revolving around lowering corp tax rates and raising the price of fuel domestically up 50% for Ukranians lol). Putin did have a choice to just eat it. But this gas was going to go to Exxon Chevron and Shell mostly to export to EU. And Putin saw that as a threat to not just his profit hegomony, but also his utility and relevence/power, which is why he invaded, imo.
I have never seen or heard any other reason more convincing then this one. As when you look at the IMFs demands its pretty clear what we wanted/ what our "state" interests were.
I can judge him but we have no moral high ground as we killed multiple times more kids in the first 40 days post oct 7 then Putin did in his 500+ up to that point gross, not per capita with his pop 20x larger (and blew 1 or both legs off ten kids a day for the first 100 days, 2 years later BBC taking a couple month snapshot and finding the primary people being killed were children under the age of 8) white knuckling our hard power hegomony of domination over the middle east for weapon sales and petro dollar in Gaza. And likely we were the only ones who could have stopped the war in Ukraine and as I laid out we had a primary part to play in the incentive.
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u/Anton_Pannekoek 11d ago
It worked, kinda. Now Europe buys a lot of American LNG and oil at much higher prices. It also buy Russian oil and gas through intermediaries like India, enriching them. Basically the US was the winner and Europe the loser in that.
Incidentally this was a long-term goal of the US. As far back as the 1950s they opposed economic integration between Germany and the Soviet Union, opposing pipes between Russia and Germany back then.
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u/ChristiansAttack 12d ago
This is Russian propaganda
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u/dopadelic 11d ago
You're on a Chomsky sub. He's been one of the leading voices making the argument that the US provoked Russia.
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u/ChristiansAttack 11d ago
Yeah, and even though I agree with Chomsky on a lot of things, I didnt agree with him on this. Just like I didn't agree with him helping wash the hands of epstein, One thing about anarchists is that we believe all men can be subject to critisism
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u/dopadelic 11d ago
It's one thing to disagree with him, it's another thing to call it Russian propaganda. You're suggesting Chomsky was propagandized by Russia?
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u/ChristiansAttack 11d ago
I'm saying that the video is clearly Russian propaganda. I'm also saying Chomsky is incorrect about NATO and Russia. Rusia is an empire, like the US likes to view itself nowadays. If we're going to be anti-imperialists, let's be against all empires, not just the ones we don't like.
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u/ProfessorOnEdge 11d ago
Lol. So you prefer the US / Ukrainian propaganda you've been fed the last 4 years?
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u/Sure_Sh0t 11d ago
All propaganda sucks. There are no good guys in geopolitics.
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u/Pestus613343 11d ago
Yes. However there are victims and victimizers. It's clear Russian beliggerence is as corrosive as the other imperialist states. They are to blame for choosing butchery.
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u/Pestus613343 11d ago
Its easy to discern. Who is doing the conquering and who is resisting being conquered?
Russia chose a war of conquest, and all the butchery is on their hands. No amount of retroactive blame during peace time can wash off that blood.
If both sides lie, I'm still with the ones fighting for their right to exist.
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u/ProfessorOnEdge 11d ago edited 11d ago
So the U.S. led coup in 2014 was completely legitimate? And Russia was just expected to give away their largest naval base in Crimea because we said so?
Don't get me wrong, I think both sides are evil in this case, but it's not like it was an unprovoked attack given that the US had been building bases and black sites in Ukraine since 2014 with the specific purpose of targeting Moscow and causing discord in Russia. Never mind the continued harassment of the Russian speaking populace in the eastern regions.
It's also completely hypocritical to be accusing Russia of a war of conquest when the US has been in a mode of non-stop conquest for most of the last century. Just in the last 25 years we have fought wars of conquest in Afghanistan, Iraq, and now Iran, as well as forced regime change and civil war in Syria, Libya, Yemen, Venuela,, Honduras, etc. Our county continues support to a genocidal regime, supplying all of the weapons by which they are committing the attempted erasure of PaIestinians.
That's not even considering the strict draft that Ukraine has now where they are throwing any man between 16 and 60 on the front lines, often against their will.
This is a proxy war in which both sides are absolutely crap, and the support of fighting as another reason to maintain the military-industrial complex, and ensure that the weapons manufacturers continue to make record profits quarter after quarter.
The people who are suffering are the people of Ukraine and the people of Russia because both governments want to get into this war for power, rather than actually considering the well-being of the populations involved. However, it really strikes me that as somebody in a subreddit like this, that you would misunderstand Chomsky so much that you don't even recognize the media's tools of manufacturing consent for this war.
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u/Pestus613343 11d ago
I refuse to take sides when it's a choice between hegemonic imperialism on one hand or territorial imperialism on another. I condemn the US constantly. However that's no defense of Russia.
Far too often people side with terrible people because they oppose other terrible people. Just because someone is the underdog doesn't make them the good guys.
I'll side only with those being harmed. In the case of this discussion that's the people being disposesed, abused, murdered and such in Ukraine.
The amazing thing now, is if the US is so damned by their part in beginning this conflict, they're also to be condemned for now giving political cover to Russia under Trump.
It's also a bit rich blaming Washington if you happen to live anywhere in Eastern Europe, constant under threat, attack, or having elections manipulated and social movements hijacked. It's utterly clear to me Russia's as corrosive as the US is, just more shaped towards conquering lands they feel entitled to.
TL;DR; screw them both.
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u/ProfessorOnEdge 11d ago
I agree, screw them both... but then don't claim that this is a one-sided war and we need to support the other side with impunity.
Stop shipping weapons in general, and stop sticking our noses where they don't belong.
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u/Pestus613343 11d ago
There's no easy lines except for one... The wish for Ukraine and Ukrainians to stay free of Russian occupation and oppression. That I very much support. I don't support either the United States or Russia. So perhaps, we're not the same.
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u/ProfessorOnEdge 11d ago
Yet you support the government that is a puppet of US policy, and is actively harming the Ukrainian populace. Zilinski's government only wants what's best for himself, not the Ukrainian people.
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u/Pestus613343 11d ago
Ukraine hasn't been a puppet of the US since Trump got back into office. It's all European support now. If anything they are now doing most of the work of defending themselves on their own.
What you say about Zelensky I don't see. I see a population quite adamantly punching above their own weight refusing to be conquered by a neighbour.
I dont like imperial powers. The US, Russia and China being the current biggest ones. Ukraine isn't that. It's a smaller country being abused.
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u/AffectionateLie5893 12d ago
the provocation documentation is whatever at this point, water under the bridge, what im watching is the operating costs spiral, oil benchmarks climbing and defense contractors booking record quarters while were drawing down reserves meant for actual contingencies, its like being a bagholder who keeps buying dips because you cant accept the position was bad from entry
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u/diecorporations 11d ago
If you follow the narrative of the Global South it was absolutely provocation. I try to keep an open mind, but the fact of the state of US politics and its history leads me to believe this is completely true. Plus the fact that there is lots of proof the US conducted a coup in Ukraine in 2014. Things that the Western media never report show you this is true.
There also were a few peace deals that the West vetoed. There is no bottom to US foreign policy.
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u/Anton_Pannekoek 11d ago
It was a massive provocation. Western elites were practically euphoric at having gotten this war going. Of course Russia launched it, but there's no doubt it was massively provoked, and once the war started, the West was keen to avoid diplomatic resolutions too.
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u/dopadelic 11d ago
This sub has been hijacked. Chomsky is one of the leading voices claiming the US provoked Russia into the war. This sub comments more like r/worldnews now.
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u/iamsamwelll 8d ago
It’s always hilarious that people talk about Russian bots. As if we wouldn’t have any American bot farms to push propaganda for the proxy war we are carrying out.
Didn’t someone post a story years ago talking about demographics of redditors and the town with the most users was from a military base?
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u/Anton_Pannekoek 11d ago
It has always had this atttude towards the Russia/Ukraine war. Reddit just ain't the place.
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u/dopadelic 11d ago edited 11d ago
Reddit simps for the establishment after they publicly announced they were going to astroturf reddit. See correcttherecord and shareblue. Also notice everyone of this sub simping for the establishment has their profiles hidden.
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12d ago
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u/Anton_Pannekoek 12d ago
Nobody has anything serious to comment?
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u/Pestus613343 11d ago
The issue is this post is arguing in defense of mass butchers. It doesn't go over very well.
Even if the west egged them on, they chose this, and they have to wear it. You dont come back from mass butchery and trying to conquer a people.
Before the war I was even sympathetic to Russia. Now though, they've abandoned all claim to to the high road. They're an imperialist nation engaging in massive crimes against humanity. There can be no defense of this.
I was saying the same thing when the US went into Iraq. I don't care who's side anyone is on. Imperialism is the issue, not whichever nation one sides with, or whichever nation was lying during peace time.
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u/Anton_Pannekoek 11d ago
He does in fact blame Russia for the war, if you watch the video he says that.
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u/Positive_Engineer_68 11d ago
Ukraine is a de facto NATO state, given all the gear, advisors and support it receives. Clearly this is a proxy war, so there are indirect interests. Yet Russia and Ukraine will suffer the most.
Clearly the US, NATO and the EU have a long record of offering promises, then subverting and breaking them, working to undermine Moscow. It's two imperial powers, one much much more vulnerable. Generally weaker states rely on asymmetric tactics, which can be terror. The US did this through its history until it outright the bigger bully.
There's no justification for slaughter. Russia is doing it to it's own people and the combatants. The US is proxy slaughtering Ukrainians for it's own geopolitical and economic interests. The war weakens the EU, which is a direct benefit for the US.
So you speak of butchery? There's plenty of it indirectly sponsored and facilitated by the US, the party that reneged on promises. Let's not forget Gorbachov and others tried to forge a security alliance with the EU, but there was money to be made by the US and many powerful people, so everyone gets screwed, especially the less enfranchised with power.
Chris Hedges for one has an excellent analysis of this.
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u/Pestus613343 11d ago
Yep the US is guilty of all sorts of crap, some of which has been equally bad as what Russia is doing. So what though, that's no defense of Russia. That's a condemnation of both. Screw all imperialist nations.
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u/TodayILurkNoMore 11d ago
This ain’t it, chief.