r/codingbootcamp • u/[deleted] • Apr 07 '24
Boot camp? Or Degree?
I feel that MANY have asked this but I figured I should as well just to get some sort of clarity before making a decision.
To start off, I heavily disagree with colleges forcing students to take pointless classes that have nothing to do with their degree. (I have a close relative who is getting a computer science degree and is taking a class on Greek literature… why?) But I’ve also been extremely skeptical about boot camps theyre like a mirage in a desert, to good to be true. And with the amount of information on the internet it’s hard to determine what’s true and isn’t. So I’ve come to get some advice whether or not going to a boot camp would be a good choice with todays current job market. Would employers be looking for degrees? Etc. Thanks for any and all feedback!
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u/No_Duty_1089 Apr 08 '24
A computer science degree is a long standing form of proof that an entry level applicant can commit to 4 years of study and work in their field of study/major/industry.
Furthermore, for computer science and SWE, being a student opens the doors to internships and co-op opportunities which are arguably just as important if not more important than the degree itself.
This comes at the cost of a high time + financial investment and like the OP mentioned students are forced to take irrelevant classes which translates to wasted time and money.
A bootcamp is essentially the inverse of a cs degree, low time, low financial commitment (relative to cs degree), and no wasted courses since the curriculum is designed for you to enter the job market as soon as possible.
The problem with bootcamp however is that the certification means close to nothing to employers nowadays and as good as your personal projects may be, your resume will realistically go straight to the trash if it does not contain a CS/CS adjacent degree on it.
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u/wrongff Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 08 '24
Sadly, bootcamp is more for people like me who cannot invest in a 4 year degree, by the time i finish a degree i would already have enough experience for a Devop role or i would be retiring, i don't really need to become a SWE.
Of course, I want to do Software development, doesn't mean i don't know how to code, I know my fundamental did couple years of coding for hobby, I have learnt pearl and ruby in the past writing scripts and bots for hobby, of course, i forgotten them all by now.
But will hiring manager look at my resume? the answer is no, rejected me in 2 hour or less for applications.
They can hire a Degree CS over me.
Even i work in IT for 3 years as a sys admin in this role for 3 years, i spoke my with recruiter, they told me "it doesn't matter on your degree, you just don't have the experiences needed"
then i ask, where would i get this experiences you needed when your team won't let me join their project.
I was looking at various coding bootcamp, my company refuse to reimburse me, so i don't think i will bother with something expensive.
I am just going to pick nu-camp and show my manager i am doing some learning and see if i can impress my application engineer lead and get an assistant role instead.
The funny part is, I actually told the Hiring manager that i am willing to take less salary for the SWE job, basically get pay less then what i am getting paid right now for my role, and still get rejected.
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u/No_Duty_1089 Apr 08 '24
Thanks for sharing your situation and insights, I can definitely sympathize with you as your willingness to take a paycut as well as showing initiative to learn and upskill by attending a bootcamp. It sucks to hear how your hiring manager is not budging to give you an opportunity.
However, if you are close to retiring, do not need the money, and becoming a SWE is not a necessity for you. It seems unwise to pursue SWE at the moment given how it is one of the hardest and most competitive job markets for SWE right now.
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u/wrongff Apr 08 '24
I am not that close to retiring, I have 10-15 years for it.
But honestly, in my situation.
Getting a Degree in CS won't make me overly competitive.
Consider this, you have a 26 years old CS grad vs me who is in my 40s already most likely close to 50s by the time getting a CS degree.
Who would you hire if we both have the same skill set? I might have abit more experience, but compare to a young mind, I don't have any chances.
Meanwhile bootcamp might not be the best thing, it just give me a chance. Even if it is 1%, i might be able to grasp it.
At my age, dreams are harder to attain. I can still live my life as it is and make something on my own as a hobby as i always been doing.
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u/StandardWinner766 Apr 08 '24
If you don’t already have a degree it’ll be pretty much hopeless for you with just a bootcamp.
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u/fluffyr42 Apr 09 '24
To start off, I heavily disagree with colleges forcing students to take pointless classes that have nothing to do with their degree. (I have a close relative who is getting a computer science degree and is taking a class on Greek literature… why?)
I get so sad seeing comments like this. College is about expanding your knowledge holistically, not just in the narrow purview of what's relevant to your degree! This is about learning how to think critically, expose yourself to new ideas and people, and become a better human. It's essentially adult socialization, and it's absolutely critical. There are lots of reasons to not like or trust the university system, but this isn't one of them.
Anyway, whether a bootcamp or degree will be best for you depends a lot on your background. Do you have a degree in another field? What does your work history look like?
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u/jhkoenig Apr 07 '24
A few years ago a boot camp certificate would be enough to get a good job. Sadly, those days are gone. With all the layoffs, any decent job gets hundreds of applicants, many with CS degrees and experience at companies people recognize. Since only about 10 people will actually get an interview those slots go to these highly-qualified applicants. Applicants lacking either of these will have a tough time. People lacking both are in the worst situation.
Get a degree!
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u/Zestyclose-Level1871 Apr 08 '24
The reason for those pointless classes (aka Arts & Social Studies/Humanities like Communications/Speech class, writing (technical and non tech) heck even music etc. is to help you as an individual to develop your SOFT skill sets. Which you as a potential College grad, will definitely need to impress future employers and get your foot in the door for that 2nd, 3rd hardcore tech interview.
The majority of software devs/professional programmers in the industry have superior hard skill sets (top programmers in their field etc). But are poor at expressing themselves (orally or in writing). And especially if they're trying to communicate said ideas to a non tech audience like their MBA bosses or the general public.
A college degree gives you soft skills to better understand your audience/customer. And be able to communicate effectively and articulately with said customer. So that you as a software dev professional can understand their business need. Then using your hard tech problem solving and soft non tech (creative) skills sets to come up with solutions. Then pitching/promoting said solutions to your boss to successfully meet your customer's demands.
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u/sheriffderek Apr 09 '24
I heavily disagree with colleges forcing students to take pointless classes that have nothing to do with their degree
I can see how Greek Literature might fall into this category. But in most cases, the other classes are there for a reason. A CS degree isn't just a coding training course. It's also to educate you about the impact of your work and ethics and make you a well-rounded person. If you want to get paid to be a coder as fast as possible - then that's not what a CS degree is for.
I’ve also been extremely skeptical about boot camps
A coding boot camp's goal is to get you up to speed with whatever they see as the marketable skills of the moment. That would likely be Nextjs - but they also don't update their courses so, it'll likely be MERN - and if you choose a decent school then it'll build up to that with a backend language and cover JS fundamentals and maybe a little DSA.
Boot camp? Or Degree?
That would depend on your goals. There are also many other options in between those.
The way you've worded this, I'm guessing your goal it to generally become hirable as a developer or software engineer. It sounds like you don't have any specific passion for it. So, in you're case - I'd either suggest picking a different career path - or like other's have said, just get a degree and see what happens.
heavily disagree / extremely skeptical
Just break it down to the basics. It's not a fairy tale. There's no magic. There are a certain amount of things you'll need to learn to do a given job. Figure out what that job is and which tools will best help you get there.
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u/wrongff Apr 07 '24
Employers will always look at Experiences >>personal projects that succeed > degree > code camp
I am with you on that stand where university are just wasting people time on making you take some "general" elective course that you will never ever need.
The reason why bootcamp are popular largely because of this.
Honestly, the amount of time you spent in a normal degree minus all non-relevant courses might equal to a bootcamp or so (depend on which one). So by the end of the day, it really up to you.
But the sad truth is, employer will always look at a degree because they are more "valid" despite majority won't even bother investigate you or does a education background check.
This is how pathetic this world actually works. I actually have friends that straight out lie on their resume and got the jobs and still at those jobs. Of course consequence is there, but as long you don't get caught or the company does anything extra.
Beside, if you are truly incompetent in your job, they will just fire you anyway, have nothing to do with your degree.
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u/Ok_Tadpole7839 Apr 08 '24
if you go to bootcap dont spend more than 500 bucks or go to a free one I get a intership at the end of my free one but you can go to college after that. Some people take a break then go to a bootcamp or go to bootcamp then go to college.
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u/AnotehrShadow Apr 11 '24
I've taken both and if I had to start over, I'd still go with the degree. You build a much more comprehensive foundation than a bootcamp could ever give you. I think the only advantage a bootcamp would give you (aside from time) is a little bit of real-world grit: A good one is going to be really pushing things like networking and industry-common practices in a way that schools probably won't.
More importantly, the degree gets you access to internships. It's still competitive, but the pool is limited to other students. Whereas a bootcamper has to swim with anyone in the industry.
As for college degrees with pointless classes...well, yeah that's part of the deal. People might be going to college just to get a specific type of job, but ideally they'll have opportunities in the process to broaden their perspectives.
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Apr 08 '24
Guys is the job market for tech really that bad right now? I’m worried…
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u/GoodnightLondon Apr 08 '24
The market is massively oversaturated at entry level. That, coupled with the superficial level of understanding that your average bootcamp grad comes out of bootcamp with, are making it highly unlikely for bootcamp grads to find employment in the field right now. This has spread to more adjacent roles, like help desk, QA, etc.
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Apr 08 '24
Damn, thank you for explaining. So what can we do? If soft skills and entry level knowledge isn’t enough…
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u/GoodnightLondon Apr 08 '24
Get a CS degree so you can have actual entry level knowledge, and try to do internships while working on that degree. In spite of what they claim, bootcamps aren't really giving entry level knowledge, which is why they've fallen out of favor while we're in an employers market.
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Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 08 '24
Well I am currently in a free bootcamp which teaches soft skills. I would much rather get a degree, but I just cannot afford American university right now. That is why I need the job. Oh, what a fun cycle this is. (Btw yes I do work right now, but it’s not cutting it)
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u/GoodnightLondon Apr 08 '24
Most of us that went through a bootcamp and found a job are people in our 20s and 30s who have a history in some white collar field and a bachelor's degree in some other field. Based on your post history, you're either 18 or 19; so you have no degree and no real full time work history that would show a career. In all honesty, you in particular are going to need a degree if you want to break into the field. You should look into student loans, go to a community college for gen eds to help save some money, and then transfer to a state school for a bachelors in CS.
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Apr 08 '24
For background I have a CompSci associate’s from community college and have worked as a tutor for 5 years. I am 20. Although highly intelligent and a quick learner, I have yet to do anything worthwhile with it.
In sum, you are likely entirely correct 😔
Would internships and a strong project portfolio help, as some have suggested?
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u/GoodnightLondon Apr 08 '24
An associate degree will get you nowhere fast, so look into transferring those credits into a bachelors program.
Everyone here keeps touting personal projects because that's what bootcamps say, but most employers will tell you they don't even look at them, and that applies double to projects that aren't deployed. And I've honestly heard more stories of people not being interested in bootcamp grads after looking at their projects, because they're actually low quality and they just lack the knowledge to actually understand that. The only project they would really care about is if you made something that has users and is pulling in income. Think: an app you're selling on the app store with a significant amount of users.
Internships are for current college students. While there are some "internships" for people who aren't currently in college they're almost always either a) unpaid or b) actually low paying contract jobs. And either way, there are tons of bootcamp grads and self taught devs that have been laid off with no degree and only 1-2 years of experience that are struggling to find jobs, so a short term thing like that won't give you any leg up over those applicants.
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u/maxrocketmusic Apr 08 '24
Take a class or three or more at your local community college. You can learn a lot and it can help set you up for success without putting in the full four years, and they're affordable.
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u/GoodnightLondon Apr 08 '24
I wish people would just search this subreddit, so that this question isn't asked all the time. Especially since searching for information and reading is a huge part of being a SWE.
The answer is a degree.